50 Reasons for the Pretribulation Rapture

Quasar92 · Jul 2, 2017

parousia70 said:
You have the nature correct, but your timing is off by 40 years.
Heaven was not open to the dead until the temple fell.

Hebrews 9:8

To the contrary! The instant the Holy Spirit arrived at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended to heaven, recorded in Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3, Jesus brought all the spirit/souls of those who belong to Him to heaven, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8, confirming Ecc.12:7. When He returns to rapture His Church, in 1 Thess.4:16-17, He will bring them all with Him from heaven, in verse 14. The temple has nothing at all to do with it.

Quasar92

Postvieww · Jul 3, 2017

Hello parousia70 it’s been a while!

parousia70 said:
So you likewise believe we will retain any wounds we may receive in death "like Christ's body" did?[/QUOTE]

Nice try. If you were hung on a cross for the sins of the world I’m sure you would but since Jesus bore that it’s not likely. I think common sense will tell you there won’t be multitudes of saints running around looking identical to Jesus.

Let’s look at what Paul said:

Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

1. “Who shall change our vile body” matches up pretty good with “we shall be changed” in 1 Corin. 15:52

2. “that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body” does that mean if Jesus had a mole on the index finger of His right hand , we will have one to, which is akin to what you ask me? I seriously doubt it. You tell us what “be fashioned like unto his glorious body” means to you? You do well with words like soon and shortly, tells us what this phrase means.

parousia70 said:

Was not John m eyewitness to the flesh and bone resurrected Christ?
Why then did he say It has not yet been revealed what our "Christ like" resurrected bodies will be in 1 John 2?

Click to expand...

Why did you leave out the “we shall be like him” part?

“It doth not yet appear” I take that to mean it has not yet come to fruition.

You apparently take it to mean we cannot know.

Checking some other versions I find wording like, not yet manifest, not yet clear, not yet be made known, not yet been revealed.

Whatever John meant I think we can rest assured he did not mean Paul didn’t know what he was talking about when he said “we shall be fashioned like unto His glorious body”.

Your thoughts?

parousia70 said:

And His pre cross body walked on water and walked through hostile crowds untouched.
How do you extrapolate from that that His pre cross body was incapable of walking through walls?

Click to expand...

Where did I say He couldn’t walk through walls? I don't believe I commented on His pre-cross abilities.

What we do know about Jesus’s resurrected body.

1. It is flesh and bone, He said so.

2. It is eternal

3. He implied He was not a just a spirit but a physical body , He told Thomas to touch Him.

4. He could be recognized if he wished.

5. He could defy the laws of physics.

I’m sure you might could add a few more. That is what I believe Paul means when he said “fashioned like unto his glorious body” tell us what you think it means and why.

Maybe some of these are related to our topic. Tell us what you believe they mean.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren

1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

This one really sounds physical to me, your thoughts?

2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Postvieww · Jul 3, 2017

Quasar92 said:
You have a problem of assuming what I have written and then trying to put words in my mouth. When Jesus RAISES the spirit/souls of all believers who die in Him to heaven, each in his/her own turn, IT IS NOT A RESURRECTION! Capiche?! Confirming Ecc;12:7!

Yes I ” Capiche” believers that die and go to heaven are spirits and not resurrected that is what I have been saying. What I am disputing is your claim that 1 Thess 4 is not a resurrection which it is and most pre-tribbers I have discussed it with believe it is too.

Here is part of the problem you take 1 Corin 15:23 and try to apply it to the individual deaths of believers by claiming when they die is their order. Then you say their death and trip to heaven is not a resurrection which I agree it is not then you say passages like 1 Corin 15:23 and 1 Thess 4 are not about a resurrection which they are.

I Corin 15:23 Tells us the resurrection of the dead mentioned in vs 21 will happen at His coming not at the death of a believer.

1 Thess. 4:16 says the dead rise first but it is not at their deaths here, it is their bodily resurrection which the verse plainly states happens when the Lord descends from heaven with a shout, and with the voice of the archangel and the trump of God, not at their physical death. I have f tried repeatedly to get you to address this point and so far you will not in your own words.

Address this in your own words without a link to someone else writings. I can post links all day.

Since you plainly stated above the death of a believer and the trip of their spirit/soul is not a resurrection (and I agree), when exactly in scripture do you believe their bodily resurrection takes place or do you believe there is one?

Quasar92 said:
It is time you started reading the Scrip-tures I have posted that refute what you have been posting.

I have read your link (twice) and most of that has been debated on this forum for years. Your link has proved nothing and refuted nothing . I already know those arguments, I used to believe and teach many of them.

Quasar92 said:
Jesus most certainly did teach the pre-trib rapture of the Church.. Review the following and stop trying to make liars of He, His disciples and me!

I have read, reviewed and regurgitated most of the arguments you link to, many times and I now have rejected this pre-trib doctrine. You have no right to be angry with me. If you post this stuff on an open debate forum it will be challenged, if not by me, it will be someone else. Get over it, defend it in your own words or find a new outlet would be my advice because you will be challenged, we all are.

parousia70 · Jul 3, 2017

Postvieww said:
Hello parousia70 it’s been a while!

Hya PV!

Nice try. If you were hung on a cross for the sins of the world I’m sure you would but since Jesus bore that it’s not likely. I think common sense will tell you there won’t be multitudes of saints running around looking identical to Jesus.

Let’s look at what Paul said:

Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

1. “Who shall change our vile body” matches up pretty good with “we shall be changed” in 1 Corin. 15:52

2. “that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body” does that mean if Jesus had a mole on the index finger of His right hand , we will have one to, which is akin to what you ask me? I seriously doubt it. You tell us what “be fashioned like unto his glorious body” means to you? You do well with words like soon and shortly, tells us what this phrase means.

The Question is, was His post resurection-pre ascension Body His "Glorious Body?.

I'm not convinced it was. I believe it was the self same Body that Hung on the cross ans had no appreciable difference in supernatural abilities to His pre cross Body.

Why did you leave out the “we shall be like him” part?

“It doth not yet appear” I take that to mean it has not yet come to fruition.

You apparently take it to mean we cannot know.

Not that we can not know, but that John Did not Know hat His Glorified Body was like, supporting my belief that His post resurrection-pre ascension Body that John Saw was not the Body John was talking about when He said it does not yet appear...

What we do know about Jesus’s resurrected body.

1. It is flesh and bone, He said so.

Yes

2. It is eternal

Click to expand...

His post resurrection- pre ascension Body is eternal? Scripture?

3. He implied He was not a just a spirit but a physical body , He told Thomas to touch Him.

Click to expand...

Yes

4. He could be recognized if he wished.

Click to expand...

Yes

5. He could defy the laws of physics.

Click to expand...

As could His pre cross Body... so?

I’m sure you might could add a few more. That is what I believe Paul means when he said “fashioned like unto his glorious body” tell us what you think it means and why.

Click to expand...

Maybe some of these are related to our topic. Tell us what you believe they mean.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren

1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

This one really sounds physical to me, your thoughts?

2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Here's my take..
I contend that In Acts 1, when the cloud received Him out of their site, was the moment His body was glorified, and not a moment before, and it is unto THAT body that ours will be fashioned. It is the same Glorified Body which Jesus Had before the incarnation, at the foundation of the world.

John himself, who witnessed His post resurrection, pre ascension Body first hand with His own eyes, Indicates that He had still NOT seen His Glorified Body:

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

At this point, after the Ascension, John is clear that He had NOT seen Jesus "as He is" presently, so, some sort of Appreciable Change to Jesus' body took place AFTER John last saw Him in the flesh.

I contend that "appreciable change" was the Glorification of His Body, The returning of His body back to the condition it was in before the foundation of the world, and it took place the moment the Cloud received Him out of their sight.

As to the timing of Christ's glorification, we have the following scriptures:

John 7.39. 'But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.'

Here we see that the spirit would be given when Jesus was glorified. During the forty days after his resurrection, the HS was not given. Only after the ascension was the HS given.

John 12.16. 'These things His disciples did not understand at the first; but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things were written of Him, and that they had done these things to Him.'

In the context of this verse Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the donkey and the people cheered. This, again, was only understood by them after his ascension and not during the 40 days.

John 17.24. ' "Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world." '

Here, Jesus expressly declared that the disciples would 'behold [His] glory' when they were with him where he was. This was not referring anytime on earth, but must be referring to after his ascension.

Jesus was NOT resurrected in His Glorified Body, He was resurrected in the Self same Body that hung on the cross and Had no different powers or attributes to it than He had before the Crucifixion (save the fact it could no longer be put to death)

Quasar92 · Jul 3, 2017

Postvieww said:
Yes I ” Capiche” believers that die and go to heaven are spirits and not resurrected that is what I have been saying. What I am disputing is your claim that 1 Thess 4 is not a resurrection which it is and most pre-tribbers I have discussed it with believe it is too.

Here is part of the problem you take 1 Corin 15:23 and try to apply it to the individual deaths of believers by claiming when they die is their order. Then you say their death and trip to heaven is not a resurrection which I agree it is not then you say passages like 1 Corin 15:23 and 1 Thess 4 are not about a resurrection which they are.

I Corin 15:23 Tells us the resurrection of the dead mentioned in vs 21 will happen at His coming not at the death of a believer.

1 Thess. 4:16 says the dead rise first but it is not at their deaths here, it is their bodily resurrection which the verse plainly states happens when the Lord descends from heaven with a shout, and with the voice of the archangel and the trump of God, not at their physical death. I have f tried repeatedly to get you to address this point and so far you will not in your own words.

Address this in your own words without a link to someone else writings. I can post links all day.

Since you plainly stated above the death of a believer and the trip of their spirit/soul is not a resurrection (and I agree), when exactly in scripture do you believe their bodily resurrection takes place or do you believe there is one?

I have read your link (twice) and most of that has been debated on this forum for years. Your link has proved nothing and refuted nothing . I already know those arguments, I used to believe and teach many of them.

I have read, reviewed and regurgitated most of the arguments you link to, many times and I now have rejected this pre-trib doctrine. You have no right to be angry with me. If you post this stuff on an open debate forum it will be challenged, if not by me, it will be someone else. Get over it, defend it in your own words or find a new outlet would be my advice because you will be challenged, we all are.

Postview wrote: Yes I ” Capiche” believers that die and go to heaven are spirits and not resurrected that is what I have been saying. What I am disputing is your claim that 1 Thess 4 is not a resurrection which it is and most pre-tribbers I have discussed it with believe it is too.

Quasar92 reply: Show me in anything I have posted that claims anything other than the spirit/soul goes to the Lord when a person dies. As to the belief 1 Thess.4:16 refers to a resurrection, I am fully aware of other expositors believing it is. I do not believe it is for reasons I have made abundantly clear in previous posts, including the fact that the Bible clearly states the FIRST resurrection is that of the tribulation martyrs/saints, in Rev.20:4/5, SEVEN years after the events of 1 Thess.4:16-17.

Postview: Here is part of the problem you take 1 Corin 15:23 and try to apply it to the individual deaths of believers by claiming when they die is their order. Then you say their death and trip to heaven is not a resurrection which I agree it is not then you say passages like 1 Corin 15:23 and 1 Thess 4 are not about a resurrection which they are. Corin 15:23 Tells us the resurrection of the dead mentioned in vs 21 will happen at His coming not at the death of a believer.

Quasar92: You falsely assume what I claim. Tell me, have all those who die in Christ since Pentecost done so in his/her turn or not? I borrowed the statement from 1 Cor.15:23, but used it for what it also clearly means.

Postview: 1 Thess. 4:16 says the dead rise first but it is not at their deaths here, it is their bodily resurrection which the verse plainly states happens when the Lord descends from heaven with a shout, and with the voice of the archangel and the trump of God, not at their physical death. I have f tried repeatedly to get you to address this point and so far you will not in your own words.Address this in your own words without a link to someone else writings. I can post links all day.

Quasar92: FYI, the links I provided you, are ALL MY OWN writngs! You got that? As posted below:

Why 1 Thes.4:16 is not a resurrection in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum

All four posts: http://deeperwalk.lefora.com/topic/19401898/The-Biblical-teaching-of-the-pretrib-rapture-of-the-Church#.WVplo-mQwa4

I previously addressed your remark pertaining to when the dead in Christ RISE FIRST, above.

Postview: Since you plainly stated above the death of a believer and the trip of their spirit/soul is not a resurrection (and I agree), when exactly in scripture do you believe their bodily resurrection takes place or do you believe there is one?

Quasar92: First of all, Paul wrote in 1 Cor.15:51 that "...we will not all sleep...?" 1 Thess.4:17 confirms that, when Paul wrote, "Then we who are left on earth alive at His coming will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER to meet the Lord i the sky."

In other words, as Paul wrote in 1 Cor.15:52, "...we will all be changed, in a twinkling of an eye..." In other words, they will be translated, as Enoch and Elijh were in the OT. There is nothing in the Bible that tells us, those who die in Christ that He RAISES to heaven in 2 Cor.5:6-8, are not changed in a twinkling of an eye in the very same way they will be in 1 Thess.4:17, is there?!

Postview: I have read your link (twice) and most of that has been debated on this forum for years. Your link has proved nothing and refuted nothing . I already know those arguments, I used to believe and teach many of them.

Quasar92: Your claim that the Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church I have posted links for above "prove nothing," is your meaningless opinion. You have yet to begin fielding an argument of any kind to prove any part of it is false, nor can you.

Postview: I have read, reviewed and regurgitated most of the arguments you link to, many times and I now have rejected this pre-trib doctrine. You have no right to be angry with me. If you post this stuff on an open debate forum it will be challenged, if not by me, it will be someone else. Get over it, defend it in your own words or find a new outlet would be my advice because you will be
challenged, we all are.

Quasar92: I have yet to see a single thing you have posted to refute any part of the four post link I have posted of Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul's teaching s on the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church! And let me give you a piece of sound advice: Do not tell others what and how to post! Do not put words in the mouth of what others have allegedly said of written! Put what others say in the original quotes!

There is no such thing as a post trib rapture of the Church. Because the Church is caught up to the Lord and taken to heaven with Him, where their marriage takes place, while the tribulation takes place on earth, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4, 28; 1 Thess.4:17; 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8. Then Jesus returns to the earth WITH HIS CHURCH from heaven in Rev.19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5.

Quasar92

Postvieww · Jul 4, 2017

Quasar92 said:
Quasar92: You falsely assume what I claim. Tell me, have all those who die in Christ since Pentecost done so in his/her turn or not? I borrowed the statement from 1 Cor.15:23, but used it for what it also clearly means.

Yes all that have died since Pentecost have died when it was time for them to die but 1 Corin. 15:21-23 has nothing to do with that. It speaks of the “resurrection of the dead” “at His coming” not at the death of each believer. You still have not answered whether or not you believe in a physical resurrection and if so when? It appears you split verse 23 into two parts “every man his own order” being the death of believers and those at his coming being those that are alive and remain. There is no scriptural justification to do that for the following reasons.

1. Veres 51-52 do not make that distinction for the dead raise and those changed all happen at the last trump. Not part at death and part at the last trump.

2. 1 Thess 4:16-17 the dead rise first and then those alive are caught up. The text says both are after the Lord descends from heaven . Yes I read what you said about it but that does not line up with this text. You claim this passage says what it does not say.

Here is what you said in the provide link:

1 Thes.4:13-18:

The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

2 Corin 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

When Paul says we are absent from the body he means death where our spirit is no longer present in the earthy body and goes to be with the Lord. That is not a definition of being raised up according to scriptural definition of raised at death..

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

If you insist on just calling the exit of a believers spirit at death being raised up that is your prerogative but that does create confusion and does not prove 1 Thess 4:16 is not a resurrection not matter how many times you repeat it.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

My italics and underline.

Your phrase already raised from the dead is what you can’t back up. Because a spirit goes to be with the Lord is not a resurrection from the dead that happens only when Jesus returns. You fail to make a distinction from a spiritual resurrection or a bodily resurrection in fact do you believe in a bodily resurrection of the saints.

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

My italics and underline. No believer has already been raised from the dead in the context of this verse 23 or verse 52 or 1 Thess. 4:16.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first"

The verse does not say “already previously raised” as you try to impose on the text.

[Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

Nothing in verse 16 says or implies previously, that is your interpretation.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

Does that mean we will die on the way up so we can be like the dead who you say were previously raised?

If we are to accept your method of interpretation on verse 23 we could argue every man in His own order then Christ the first fruits and then those at His coming .

The text actually says, speaking of the resurrection in verse 21 :

1. Every man in his own order ( which includes Christ the firstfruits, He was born a flesh and blood man)

2. Then those that are Christ’s at His coming.

3. There are only two in the order listed, Christ the firstfruits then everyone else that belongs to Him at His coming.

"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.

You have my apology for missing the fact that your link was your writing. That said when you keep referring people on this forum just to go back and read what you wrote that does not always answer the questions ask of you. Your previous writings are your opinion like anyone else who posts here and are not a source of proof or settled doctrine. You must defend what you wrote not just assume it answers all questions on the matter, as shown above.

Postvieww · Jul 4, 2017

Quasar92 said:
Quasar92 reply: Show me in anything I have posted that claims anything other than the spirit/soul goes to the Lord when a person dies.

Yes that is what you’ve said but when is the believer’s dead body resurrected or do you believe it is?

Quasar92 said:
As to the belief 1 Thess.4:16 refers to a resurrection, I am fully aware of other expositors believing it is. I do not believe it is for reasons I have made abundantly clear in previous posts, including the fact that the Bible clearly states the FIRST resurrection is that of the tribulation martyrs/saints, in Rev.20:4/5, SEVEN years after the events of 1 Thess.4:16-17.

Nothing in either text gives you that 7 year time period. Can you show a 7 year tribulation from the book of Revelation?

Revelation 20:4-5 doesn’t actually say what you say it says.

1. John did describe as having seen this group in his vision but nowhere says it is the only group included in the first resurrection.

2. When the tribulation saints were killed where did their soul/spirit go until being resurrected with their bodies?

3. John mentions the first resurrection in between two mentions of the 1000 year reign but the resurrection must be before the 1000 years start,

4. I believe the most you can extrapolate from this passage is that the martyrs were singled out for special recognition because of their martyrdom, not that they were the only ones included in the first resurrection.

To support my claim of special recognition:

Hebrews 11: 35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection

5. Since you believe only martyrs are a part of the first resurrection do you also believe it is only martyrs that are priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him 1000 years? Rev 1:6 5:10

6. Who are those that sat on thrones in verse 4 and where are those thrones located?

As I said in an earlier post John refers to the first resurrection in Rev 20:5-6 but he does not say it takes place after the 1000 years which is mentioned in verses 2,3,5,&7 before and after his mention of the 1st resurrection.. He only says it happened and blessed are those that took part. It obviously happened before the 1000 years because of verse 6.

The first resurrection is not exclusive to the tribulation martyrs is the general resurrection described in John 6, 1 Corin 15 and 1 Thess 4,Philippians 3:11, Hebrews 6:2 . You have not shown otherwise in your posts.

Postvieww · Jul 4, 2017

parousia70 said:
Hya PV!

The Question is, was His post resurection-pre ascension Body His "Glorious Body?.

I'm not convinced it was. I believe it was the self same Body that Hung on the cross ans had no appreciable difference in supernatural abilities to His pre cross Body.

Not that we can not know, but that John Did not Know hat His Glorified Body was like, supporting my belief that His post resurrection-pre ascension Body that John Saw was not the Body John was talking about when He said it does not yet appear...

Yes

His post resurrection- pre ascension Body is eternal? Scripture?

Yes

Yes

As could His pre cross Body... so?

Here's my take..
I contend that In Acts 1, when the cloud received Him out of their site, was the moment His body was glorified, and not a moment before, and it is unto THAT body that ours will be fashioned. It is the same Glorified Body which Jesus Had before the incarnation, at the foundation of the world.

John himself, who witnessed His post resurrection, pre ascension Body first hand with His own eyes, Indicates that He had still NOT seen His Glorified Body:

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

At this point, after the Ascension, John is clear that He had NOT seen Jesus "as He is" presently, so, some sort of Appreciable Change to Jesus' body took place AFTER John last saw Him in the flesh.

I contend that "appreciable change" was the Glorification of His Body, The returning of His body back to the condition it was in before the foundation of the world, and it took place the moment the Cloud received Him out of their sight.

As to the timing of Christ's glorification, we have the following scriptures:

John 7.39. 'But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.'

Here we see that the spirit would be given when Jesus was glorified. During the forty days after his resurrection, the HS was not given. Only after the ascension was the HS given.

John 12.16. 'These things His disciples did not understand at the first; but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things were written of Him, and that they had done these things to Him.'

In the context of this verse Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the donkey and the people cheered. This, again, was only understood by them after his ascension and not during the 40 days.

John 17.24. ' "Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world." '

Here, Jesus expressly declared that the disciples would 'behold [His] glory' when they were with him where he was. This was not referring anytime on earth, but must be referring to after his ascension.

Jesus was NOT resurrected in His Glorified Body, He was resurrected in the Self same Body that hung on the cross and Had no different powers or attributes to it than He had before the Crucifixion (save the fact it could no longer be put to death)

Thanks for your well-reasoned response. I will answer. Be patient I have a lot going on right now.

Postvieww · Jul 4, 2017

parousia70 said:

The Question is, was His post resurection-pre ascension Body His "Glorious Body?.

Which ascension?

I'm not convinced it was. I believe it was the self same Body that Hung on the cross ans had no appreciable difference in supernatural abilities to His pre cross Body.

John 20:17 Jesus told Mary to not touch Him because he had not yet ascended to His Father. Yet in John20:27 Jesus told Thomas to touch Him. That tells me Jesus ascended to the Father between verses 17 and 27. Something happened significant during that time. We could have a whole other discussion about that.

Not that we can not know, but that John Did not Know hat His Glorified Body was like, supporting my belief that His post resurrection-pre ascension Body that John Saw was not the Body John was talking about when He said it does not yet appear...

Maybe, and maybe John was saying it had not yet been revealed to his understanding every physical and spiritual detail of Jesus’s body even though he had seen Jesus pre-ascention.

His post resurrection- pre ascension Body is eternal? Scripture?

You said at the end of this post:

“ Jesus was NOT resurrected in His Glorified Body, He was resurrected in the Self same Body that hung on the cross and Had no different powers or attributes to it than He had before the Crucifixion (save the fact it could no longer be put to death)”

What scripture did you use for that?

Jesus said He had a flesh and bone body obviously not mentioned is the blood. Lazarus or any other person raised from the dead, had to die again and obviously had blood in their veins. Jesus was raised and described himself as flesh and bones in Luke 24:39 coupled with 1 Corin. 15:50 I believe there was no blood in His veins at that time. Back to John 20:17, I believe He ascended to heaven after his conversation with Mary applied his blood on the mercy seat in heaven and returned to earth before He told Thomas to touch Him. Leviticus 14-15 Hebrews 9:23-26.

I’m not sure how a glorification at His final ascension can be shown conclusively from the text. His first ascension would make more sense to me.

As could His pre cross Body... so?

No “so” just an observation that He could defy the laws of physics .

Here's my take..

I contend that In Acts 1, when the cloud received Him out of their site, was the moment His body was glorified, and not a moment before, and it is unto THAT body that ours will be fashioned. It is the same Glorified Body which Jesus Had before the incarnation, at the foundation of the world.

What text do you support the claim he was glorified at that moment and what text do you support the claim it was the same body He had before the incarnation?

John himself, who witnessed His post resurrection, pre ascension Body first hand with His own eyes, Indicates that He had still NOT seen His Glorified Body:

1 John 3:2

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

A reasonable assumption, but the passage can be seen in another way. If something was different about His body maybe it happened at the first ascension.

John could have seen Christ’s physical appearance in either of the ways you and I could describe it and still not have fully comprehended it or have the full understanding of what he saw “revealed” to him.

At this point, after the Ascension, John is clear that He had NOT seen Jesus "as He is" presently, so, some sort of Appreciable Change to Jesus' body took place AFTER John last saw Him in the flesh.

Maybe, if John only spoke of what he physically saw. I am not sure we can establish that for certain. Maybe he will fully comprehend Jesus as He is.

I contend that "appreciable change" was the Glorification of His Body, The returning of His body back to the condition it was in before the foundation of the world, and it took place the moment the Cloud received Him out of their sight.

Again, chapter and verse?

As to the timing of Christ's glorification, we have the following scriptures:

John 7.39. 'But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.'

Consider this one:

John 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

Could I not use your method of word meanings to believe when Jesus said the hour is come he meant something a little closer than 40 days?

Is not possible the term “glorified” does not necessarily apply to what happen physically at the resurrection or ascension?

Can we really lay out in bullet points from scripture what happens when Jesus was glorified ?

Here we see that the spirit would be given when Jesus was glorified. During the forty days after his resurrection, the HS was not given. Only after the ascension was the HS given.

Then explain what happened in John 20:22 before the ascension.

Jesus had already been to heaven and back by the time John 20:22 happened that could have satisfied your point on John 7:39

John 12.16. 'These things His disciples did not understand at the first; but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things were written of Him, and that they had done these things to Him.'

I think we must first nail down just exactly what “glorified” means in this context. I am not sure either of us has done that yet.

In the context of this verse Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the donkey and the people cheered. This, again, was only understood by them after his ascension and not during the 40 days.

John 17.24. ' "Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world." '

Here, Jesus expressly declared that the disciples would 'behold [His] glory' when they were with him where he was. This was not referring anytime on earth, but must be referring to after his ascension.

I disagree I believe this could refer to a time after Jesus’s coming back to earth. When will we be with Him where He is should be the question here. When He left in a cloud, who was with Him?

Jesus was NOT resurrected in His Glorified Body, He was resurrected in the Self same Body that hung on the cross and Had no different powers or attributes to it than He had before the Crucifixion (save the fact it could no longer be put to death)

Not sure you have or can prove that. Define “glorified body” from scripture.

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

What is it that will show Christ to be the one they pierced?

I don’t believe you have proved conclusively Jesus’s body was different after the ascension than after the resurrection, nor do I believe I have proved conclusively your theory has no merit. I have made my case and you have made yours. I believe we both have a lot to chew on. I welcome any response you offer.

keras · Jul 4, 2017

Kept from the hour of Trial…

How do Revelation 3:10 and 1 Thessalonians 5:9 say we are to be ‘kept from the hour of trial’ and ‘not destined for retribution’?

They are in the context of: Hold on to what you have, [your faith] let no one rob you of your crown. [your reward] Keep sober, armed with faith and love…..continue to encourage one another.

When we examine the Greek word ‘peirasmos’, translated as ‘trial’ in Rev. 3, we see it doesn’t match with ‘thlipsis’, used in Matthew 24:21; which refers to the Great Tribulation. 1 Thess. 5 is in the context of a sudden destruction the Lord is going to send upon the ungodly peoples. We should not be in the dark about it, knowing what it will be and be prepared for it, spiritually and physically.

For those who stand firm in faith and love, there are two possibilities. One is a rapture removal to heaven, the other is the Lord’s protection during that time of trouble.

I discount the rapture because such a thing as a general removal of the Lord’s people has never happened before, the Israelites and now Christians have always had to face attacks, persecution and disasters. God doesn’t change, Malachi 3:6, and what happened in the past was symbolic and examples for us, upon whom the end of the age is coming: 1 Corinthians 10:6 Besides the fact that a mass rapture to heaven in the end times, is nowhere prophesied or found in the Bible.

Protection does have a precedent; the three men in the furnace, Daniel 3:19-27 But scriptures like Psalms 23 and Isaiah 43:2 ….walk thru fire and you will not be scorched…. plus over 30 other prophesies assuring safety and protection through what is to come. Jesus prayed for this in John 17:15 and promises like; Zephaniah 2:3, 2 Peter 2:9, Psalms 91:1-16, Jeremiah 17:7-8, Isaiah 26:20 are a great comfort and support when trouble strikes.

It’s simple, really; we are plainly told what to do on the sudden, shocking and terrible Day of the Lord: Call upon the Name of the Lord and you will be saved. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

Quasar92 · Jul 4, 2017

Postvieww said:
Yes all that have died since Pentecost have died when it was time for them to die but 1 Corin. 15:21-23 has nothing to do with that. It speaks of the “resurrection of the dead” “at His coming” not at the death of each believer. You still have not answered whether or not you believe in a physical resurrection and if so when? It appears you split verse 23 into two parts “every man his own order” being the death of believers and those at his coming being those that are alive and remain. There is no scriptural justification to do that for the following reasons.

1. Veres 51-52 do not make that distinction for the dead raise and those changed all happen at the last trump. Not part at death and part at the last trump.

2. 1 Thess 4:16-17 the dead rise first and then those alive are caught up. The text says both are after the Lord descends from heaven . Yes I read what you said about it but that does not line up with this text. You claim this passage says what it does not say.

Here is what you said in the provide link:

1 Thes.4:13-18:

The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

2 Corin 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

When Paul says we are absent from the body he means death where our spirit is no longer present in the earthy body and goes to be with the Lord. That is not a definition of being raised up according to scriptural definition of raised at death..

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

If you insist on just calling the exit of a believers spirit at death being raised up that is your prerogative but that does create confusion and does not prove 1 Thess 4:16 is not a resurrection not matter how many times you repeat it.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

My italics and underline.

Your phrase already raised from the dead is what you can’t back up. Because a spirit goes to be with the Lord is not a resurrection from the dead that happens only when Jesus returns. You fail to make a distinction from a spiritual resurrection or a bodily resurrection in fact do you believe in a bodily resurrection of the saints.

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

My italics and underline. No believer has already been raised from the dead in the context of this verse 23 or verse 52 or 1 Thess. 4:16.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first"

The verse does not say “already previously raised” as you try to impose on the text.

[Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

Nothing in verse 16 says or implies previously, that is your interpretation.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

Does that mean we will die on the way up so we can be like the dead who you say were previously raised?

If we are to accept your method of interpretation on verse 23 we could argue every man in His own order then Christ the first fruits and then those at His coming .

The text actually says, speaking of the resurrection in verse 21 :

1. Every man in his own order ( which includes Christ the firstfruits, He was born a flesh and blood man)

2. Then those that are Christ’s at His coming.

3. There are only two in the order listed, Christ the firstfruits then everyone else that belongs to Him at His coming.

"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.

You have my apology for missing the fact that your link was your writing. That said when you keep referring people on this forum just to go back and read what you wrote that does not always answer the questions ask of you. Your previous writings are your opinion like anyone else who posts here and are not a source of proof or settled doctrine. You must defend what you wrote not just assume it answers all questions on the matter, as shown above.

Postview: Yes all that have died since Pentecost have died when it was time for them to die but 1 Corin. 15:21-23 has nothing to do with that. It speaks of the “resurrection of the dead” “at His coming” not at the death of each believer. You still have not answered whether or not you believe in a physical resurrection and if so when? It appears you split verse 23 into two parts “every man his own order” being the death of believers and those at his coming being those that are alive and remain. There is no scriptural justification to do that for the following reasons.

Quasar92: The fact of the matter is, my use of the words for all those who previously died in Christ, as "each in his/her own turn," beginning at Pentecost to this very day - has nothing whatever to do with 1 Cor.15:23. No amount of arguing will ever change it, so why are you doing so?

Postview: 1. Veres 51-52 do not make that distinction for the dead raise and those changed all happen at the last trump. Not part at death and part at the last trump.

Qusar92: The subject of 1 Cor.15 is about the resurrection and the body. It touches on 1 Thess.413-17 that pertains to the rapture of the Church as well as the translation of the bodies of those left on earth alive at Jesus coming. ! Cor.51-53 most certainly do make that distinction. Paul wrote that the dead in Christ will RISE first, in verse 16. Which they all have previously, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8, when Jesus RAISED them to heaven with Him. When He returns for all those left on earth alive, He will bring all those who previously died, with Him, when He comes, as recorded in verse 14. If 1 Thess.4:16 was intended to be a resurrection, please explain to me why it wasn't done so in Paul's teachings about resurrections in 1 Cor.15. God's trumpet will sound both times; at the rapture of the Church, in 1 Thess.4:16-17 and seven years later at the FIRST resurrection in Rev.20:4. Do you think His trumpet will not sound at the Great White Throne Judgment, when everyone will come out of their graves? Do you know when the last trumpet of God will blow? I don't think so.

Postview: 2. 1 Thess 4:16-17 the dead rise first and then those alive are caught up. The text says both are after the Lord descends from heaven . Yes I read what you said about it but that does not line up with this text. You claim this passage says what it does not say.

Here is what you said in the provide link:

1 Thes.4:13-18:

The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

2 Corin 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

When Paul says we are absent from the body he means death where our spirit is no longer present in the earthy body and goes to be with the Lord. That is not a definition of being raised up according to scriptural definition of raised at death..

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

If you insist on just calling the exit of a believers spirit at death being raised up that is your prerogative but that does create confusion and does not prove 1 Thess 4:16 is not a resurrection not matter how many times you repeat it.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

My italics and underline.

Your phrase already raised from the dead is what you can’t back up. Because a spirit goes to be with the Lord is not a resurrection from the dead that happens only when Jesus returns. You fail to make a distinction from a spiritual resurrection or a bodily resurrection in fact do you believe in a bodily resurrection of the saints.

Quasar92: I've already backed up what I post, with the Scriptural support to verify it! 2 Cor.5:6-8 has already been posted above, fullyb supporting how the spirit/soul of each believer who died was RAISED , each in his/her own turn, beginning at Pentecost to this very day. Confirming Ecc.12:7!

1 Thess.4:13 "Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

FYI, I can fully support what I write with Scriptural verification. So on't shoot yourself in the foot by telling me I can't!

Postview: Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

My italics and underline. No believer has already been raised from the dead in the context of this verse 23 or verse 52 or 1 Thess. 4:16.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first"

The verse does not say “already previously raised” as you try to impose on the text.

Quasar92: Please explain how those who previously died in Christ got into heaven, so they are seen returning from heaven with Jesus when He comes, in verses 14 and 16, if Jesus had not RAISED them all first, in 2 Cor.5:6-8, as FIRSTFRUITS, as He is the first of, according to 1 Cor.15:23!

Postview: [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

Nothing in verse 16 says or implies previously, that is your interpretation.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

Does that mean we will die on the way up so we can be like the dead who you say were previously raised?

If we are to accept your method of interpretation on verse 23 we could argue every man in His own order then Christ the first fruits and then those at His coming .

The text actually says, speaking of the resurrection in verse 21 :

1. Every man in his own order ( which includes Christ the firstfruits, He was born a flesh and blood man)

2. Then those that are Christ’s at His coming.

3. There are only two in the order listed, Christ the firstfruits then everyone else that belongs to Him at His coming.

"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.

Quasar92: I count three in 1 Cor.15:23, as do some translations. 1. Christ, 2 Firstfruits; 3. then those who are His at His coming! In other translations, where it says, "Christ the firstfruits...," Christ is but one firstfruit, while the text clearly reveals firstfruits to be plural. Which reveals the others that are included in the passage.

Postview: You have my apology for missing the fact that your link was your writing. That said when you keep referring people on this forum just to go back and read what you wrote that does not always answer the questions ask of you. Your previous writings are your opinion like anyone else who posts here and are not a source of proof or settled doctrine. You must defend what you wrote not just assume it answers all questions on the matter, as shown above.

Quasar92: Apology accepted. As a qualified teacer of the Bible, like all other teachers, the answers we provide may come as an indirect response, from which the answers come, with added support for clearer understanding. The same is true with paraphrasing of text or verses pertaining to the subject for a better understanding of the meaning of the passage.

FYI, it doesn't make a bit of difference in the prophetic chronological order of events, whether 1 Thess.4:16 is a resurrection, which it is not, or as I have interpreted it. It should cause you to give thought to the fact Jesus revealed to John, the FIRST resurrection is the one recorded in Rev.20:4, of the tribulation martyrs/saints, seven years after the events of 1 Thess.4:16.

Quasar92

Quasar92 · Jul 4, 2017

Postvieww said:
Yes that is what you’ve said but when is the believer’s dead body resurrected or do you believe it is?

Nothing in either text gives you that 7 year time period. Can you show a 7 year tribulation from the book of Revelation?

Revelation 20:4-5 doesn’t actually say what you say it says.

1. John did describe as having seen this group in his vision but nowhere says it is the only group included in the first resurrection.

2. When the tribulation saints were killed where did their soul/spirit go until being resurrected with their bodies?

3. John mentions the first resurrection in between two mentions of the 1000 year reign but the resurrection must be before the 1000 years start,

4. I believe the most you can extrapolate from this passage is that the martyrs were singled out for special recognition because of their martyrdom, not that they were the only ones included in the first resurrection.

To support my claim of special recognition:

Hebrews 11: 35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection

5. Since you believe only martyrs are a part of the first resurrection do you also believe it is only martyrs that are priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him 1000 years? Rev 1:6 5:10

6. Who are those that sat on thrones in verse 4 and where are those thrones located?

As I said in an earlier post John refers to the first resurrection in Rev 20:5-6 but he does not say it takes place after the 1000 years which is mentioned in verses 2,3,5,&7 before and after his mention of the 1st resurrection.. He only says it happened and blessed are those that took part. It obviously happened before the 1000 years because of verse 6.

The first resurrection is not exclusive to the tribulation martyrs is the general resurrection described in John 6, 1 Corin 15 and 1 Thess 4,Philippians 3:11, Hebrews 6:2 . You have not shown otherwise in your posts.

Postview wrote: "Yes that is what you’ve said but when is the believer’s dead body resurrected or do you believe it is?"

Those who are left on earth alive at Jesus coming, in 1 Thess.4:15, are millions of people who will be translated in their glorified bodies. They will go with Jesus to heaven, marry the Lamb, and return to the earth with Jesus, according to Rev.19:7-8 and 14, What support do you have, all of those who previously died in Christ, beginning at Pentecost, are not changed in a twinkling of an eye, as recorded in 1 Cor.15:51-52, as those who are left on earth alive at His coming will be translated? Why should there be any difference in the two groups?

Quasar92

Postvieww · Jul 5, 2017

Point 18 of 50 reasons for the Pretribulation Rapture.

18. At the time of the translation of the church, (not in the text) all believers go to the Father's house in heaven (John 14:3) and do not immediately return to the earth after meeting Christ in the air as postribulationists teach. (Speculative opinion)

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Mansions is Strong’s word 3438 also translated “abode” in John 14:23

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

1. Has Jesus been preparing a place of “abode” for the saints which is temporary housing (7 years or less)?

2. Where does the above passage mention a return trip to heaven? When He comes He will be here on earth and we will be with Him.

3. Is it not at least possible the place He is preparing is described in Revelation 21?

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

However one choses to understand John 14:1-3 there is no clearly stated return trip to heaven written. That theory is interpreted into the text.

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Jesus did not pray for us to be removed from this earth.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Jesus did not pray for any future believers to be remove from this earth.

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Jesus used the same wording “where I am” in this passage as He used in John 14:3. Yet we are to believe John 14 includes a trip to heave and this passage clearly says He does not pray that we be taken out of the world.

25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Point 18 refuted.

Quasar92 · Jul 5, 2017

Postvieww said:
Point 18 of 50 reasons for the Pretribulation Rapture.

18. At the time of the translation of the church, (not in the text) all believers go to the Father's house in heaven (John 14:3) and do not immediately return to the earth after meeting Christ in the air as postribulationists teach. (Speculative opinion)

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Mansions is Strong’s word 3438 also translated “abode” in John 14:23

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

1. Has Jesus been preparing a place of “abode” for the saints which is temporary housing (7 years or less)?

2. Where does the above passage mention a return trip to heaven? When He comes He will be here on earth and we will be with Him.

3. Is it not at least possible the place He is preparing is described in Revelation 21?

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

However one choses to understand John 14:1-3 there is no clearly stated return trip to heaven written. That theory is interpreted into the text.

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Jesus did not pray for us to be removed from this earth.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Jesus did not pray for any future believers to be remove from this earth.

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Jesus used the same wording “where I am” in this passage as He used in John 14:3. Yet we are to believe John 14 includes a trip to heave and this passage clearly says He does not pray that we be taken out of the word.

25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Point 18 refuted.

The Scriptures refute you!

Jn.14:1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God[a]; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”

Jn.14:28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

AND WHERE DID JESUS GO? HE WENT TO THE FATHER IN HEAVEN!

Mk.16:19 "After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God."

EVENTS THAT TAKE PLACE WHILE THE CHURCH IS IN HEAVEN:

Rev.19:1 "And after these things I heard a great voice of much peoplein heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:"

Rev.19:7 "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb [Jesus] is come, and his Bride [Church] hath made herself ready. 8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

[Parenthetics mine]

JESUS SECOND COMING TO THE EARTH WITH HIS CHURCH FROM HEAVEN

Rev.19:14 "The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean." [The Church]

Quasar92

parousia70 · Jul 5, 2017

Postvieww said:
parousia70 said:

The Question is, was His post resurection-pre ascension Body His "Glorious Body?.

Which ascension?

Scripture records one and only one.

John 20:17 Jesus told Mary to not touch Him because he had not yet ascended to His Father. Yet in John20:27 Jesus told Thomas to touch Him. That tells me Jesus ascended to the Father between verses 17 and 27. Something happened significant during that time. We could have a whole other discussion about that.

The only reason for an ascension that supports your estimation would be that he needed to present himself to the father as an untarnished sacrifice, however the writer of Hebrews explicitly says that CAN NOT BE:

Hebrews 9:25-26
"25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.'

Maybe, and maybe John was saying it had not yet been revealed to his understanding every physical and spiritual detail of Jesus’s body even though he had seen Jesus pre-ascention.

Click to expand...

2 Corinthians 5:16
16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.

1 Timothy 6:14-16
14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, 15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

What text do you support the claim he was glorified at that moment and what text do you support the claim it was the same body He had before the incarnation?

John 17:5

Busy Day... more to come later

Postvieww · Jul 5, 2017

Quasar92 said:
The Scriptures refute you!

Jn.14:1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God[a]; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”

Cherry picking translations does not refute.

Answer the points I raised about John 17 and Revelation21.

Quasar92 said:
Jn.14:28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

AND WHERE DID JESUS GO? HE WENT TO THE FATHER IN HEAVEN!

He went to heaven, He is coming back and when He does He stays and we will be with Him right here.

Address my point on John 17.

Quasar92 said:
Mk.16:19 "After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God."

Says nothing about taking the church back to heaven.

Quasar92 said:
EVENTS THAT TAKE PLACE WHILE THE CHURCH IS IN HEAVEN:

You have no scripture that states the resurrected (raptured) church is ever in Heaven. John 14 is not it.

Quasar92 said:
Rev.19:1 "And after these things I heard a great voice of much peoplein heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:"

Heaven has many souls of saints that have preceded us in death. Prove these are resurrected (raptured) saints. Revelation 6, 7, 19

Quasar92 said:
Rev.19:7 "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb [Jesus] is come, and his Bride [Church] hath made herself ready. 8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

[Parenthetics mine]

You interpret way too much into the scriptures.

1. The passage basically announces it is time for marriage of the Lamb.

2. Any preparation the church can make is made on this earth.

3. There is no description in the passage of what exactly takes place or where.

4. 2 verses later Jesus returns to earth.

5. Revelation 21 says the bride is the New Jerusalem

6. Revelation 19:7 is far from a pre-trib rapture proof text.

7. Revelation 19:9 says “blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper” no location or time given.

8. Many great eloquent sermons have been preached on the lavish dinner around a table in heaven with Jesus while the earth is tribulating but none of that is found in the text.

Quasar92 said:
JESUS SECOND COMING TO THE EARTH WITH HIS CHURCH FROM HEAVEN

Rev.19:14 "The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean." [The Church]

The souls of those that have preceded us in death and are said to have come out of great tribulation are in fine linen in heaven you have not shown from scripture they are a raptured. Resurrected church. Thy will return with Jesus when He comes.

Revelation 6:11, Revelation 7:9,13 &14

Point 18 still refuted.

Postvieww · Jul 5, 2017

Points 29 &30 of 50 reasons for the pretribulation rapture:

29. The Holy Spirit as the restrainer of evil cannot be taken out of the world unless the church, ( Not in the text) which the Spirit indwells, is translated at the same time. The Tribulation cannot begin until this restraint is lifted. ( nothing in scripture says the HS is translated)

30. The Holy Spirit as the restrainer must be taken out of the world before "the lawless one," who dominates the tribulation period, can be revealed (2 Thess. 2:6-8). (It is assumed the HS is the restrainer nothing in the text says that)

The below passage is a pre-trib rapture busting scripture that every good pre-tribber must discount or interpret out of existence. Many pre-tribbers can’t even agree on how eliminate the plain wording of the passage.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Any way one tries to interpret this verse it is still the gathering of the church.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

The day of Christ, is the same day of His coming and our gathering in verse 1.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

“that day shall not come” added by the translators for clarity refers to the same subject as verses 1&2. Leave it out if you wish, it does not alter the meaning of the passage.

Before the Lords coming for our gathering on the day of Christ there will be two events.

1. the falling away

2. the revealing of the man of sin.

Nobody really argues on the man of sin so let’s look at the falling away.

Many claim the word “apostasia” should be translated departure. No problem but it still means departure from the faith.

Paul also wrote to Timothy “Some shall depart from the faith”, 1 Timothy 4:1

Acts 21:21 translates the same word apostasia as forsake. In the context of Acts 21:21 it is forsaking the teaching of Moses.

This cannot be refuted but it is ignored by those pre-tribbers who can’t accept the true meaning of the word “apostasia”.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon

STRONGS NT 646: ἀποστασία

ἀποστασία, ἀποστασιας, ἡ (ἀφισταμαι), a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance

falling away, apostacy

Feminine of the same as apostasion; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy") -- falling away, forsake.

The meaning of the word in no way supports the removal of the church to another location which must be done for this passage to support the pre-trib position. This false interpretation in verse 3 is required to support the false interpretation in verses 6&7. This house of cards falls apart with the truth of the passage.

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Something or someone must be withholding the revelation of the man of sin. Pre-tribbers have to claim it is the Church or the Holy Spirit within the church to keep the escape dream alive. Nothing in the passage states the one who retrains is the church or the Holy Spirit within the church. That is entirely the opinion of those that promote this fallacy.

This is one of the most maligned passages in the study of end time events.

Since the falling away and the revealing of the man of sin must happen before the return of the Lord and our gathering, how can the gathering of the church possibly be that which allows the man of sin to be revealed???

Paul was not confused about the word choices or definitions. It is the pretrib camp causing confusion on this passage because it plainly refutes a pretrib removal of the church to heaven.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Points 29 &30 refuted.

Postvieww · Jul 6, 2017

Point 33 from 50 Reasons for the Pretribulation Rapture.

33. If the twenty-four elders of Revelation 4:1-5:14 are representative of the church as many expositors believe, it would necessitate the rapture and reward of the church before the Tribulation.

The elders are not representative of the church they are 24 elders most often seen with the 4 beasts.

The belief the 24 elders are representative of the church is but one theory; some also believe they are 12 apostles and 12 Old Testament saints. I believe a strong case be made they are created beings part of God’s heavenly hosts.

Updated and revised post from another thread:

A few questions and observations about the 24 elders.

1 24 elders first mention Revelation 4:4 around the throne.

2. Also around the throne are the 4 beasts: first mention Revelation 4:6

3. The 4 beasts worship God Rev 4:8-9

4 The 24 elders also worship God Rev 4:10-11

5. Chapter 5:1 God the father has the book in His hand

6. Verses 2-4 no man is found in heaven worthy to open the book (Jesus is obviously not yet present in this scene.

7. Verse 5 one of the elders proclaim “the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book” this sets the timing of this event to after Jesus’s resurrection and just before His ascension to heaven.

8. Revelation 5:6 Jesus has arrived and is in the midst of the 4 beasts and the 24 elders.

9. I submit this fact precludes the 24 elders being representative members of the church, because Jesus just arrived, the church had just begun, and all of the apostles were still alive on the earth.

10.Revelation 5:8 the four beasts and the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb.

11. Very important point verse 9 says and “they sung a new song”. “They” refers back to verse 8 which is the 4 beasts and the 24 elders. So have both the 4 beasts and 24 elders singing the same song and that song in verse 9 of the KJV says “ for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation” . See points 14 thru 19.

Rev 14:3 Says no man could learn that song but the 144,000. Point: the 24 elders and 4 beasts were not men nor were they part of the 144,000, yet they sang the new song.

12. Important question #1. Can the four beasts who are obviously non human created beings part of the “heavenly hosts” as described in Rev 4:6-8 be redeemed to God by the blood of Jesus out of “every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation” ? The answer has to be no, only mankind can be redeemed by His blood.

13. Verse 10 says ”made us” referring back to verse 8, both the 4 beasts and 24 elders.

14. Important question #2. Can the 4 beasts be Kings and Priests to God and reign on the earth? No they can neither be redeemed by His blood nor rule and reign with Him on the earth.

15. The translation in the KJV seems to imply both the 4 beats and 24 elders both were redeemed by His blood.

16. I submit the KJV in this case does not offer the correct translation of this passage.

17. I submit for the above mentioned reason the ASV rendering of this passage makes more sense.

18. ASV Revelation 5:9 And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

10 and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon the earth.

19. As the ASV translates this passage there is no contradiction, both the 4 beasts and 24 elders can sing the same song, because they do not refer to themselves they refer to mankind.

20. The argument is made because the 24 elders are arrayed in white with crowns they must be a redeemed group.

21. Angels are shown in scripture to be arrayed in white, Mark 16:5, John 20:12, Acts 1:10, and Revelation 15:6.

22. Are the golden crowns proof positive of the 24 elders earthly origin? Based on the above evidence I would say no. Rev. 9:7 depicts the locusts with crowns like gold. Revelation 14:14 shows Jesus with a crown of gold. Revelation 15:6 depicts angels with golden girdles. So wearing gold does not necessarily show one to be redeemed of the earth.

23. There are 6 mentions of the 24 elders in Revelation, 4:4 &10, 5:8&14, 11:16 and 19:4.

In every mention the 24 elders are with the 4 beasts doing the same things as the beasts with the exception of Revelation 11:16.

In Rev 19:4 both the 24 elders and the 4 beasts worship God.

24. A very strong case can be made that the 24 elders are not redeemed from mankind, that they are not apostles or Old Testament saints or any other human beings but are created angelic beings just as the 4 beasts.

Point 33 refuted.

Postvieww · Jul 7, 2017

Point #49 from 50 Reasons for the Pretribulation Rapture.

49. No unfulfilled prophecy stands between the church and the Rapture, while many signs must be

fulfilled before the Second Coming.

False.

The above statement is built on the premise a pre trib resurrection is fact when in fact it is not.

1. See post #318. The falling away (1 Timothy 4:1) and the revealing of the man of sin (Revelation 13:4-7) (2 Thessalonians 2:3) must happen before our gathering at His coming.

2. Much of the book of Revelation is yet unfulfilled prophecy which will be fulfilled before His return.

3. There is no pre-second coming, coming in scripture.

Point # 49 refuted.

Postvieww · Jul 7, 2017

parousia70 said:
Scripture records one and only one.

parousia70 said:
The only reason for an ascension that supports your estimation would be that he needed to present himself to the father as an untarnished sacrifice, however the writer of Hebrews explicitly says that CAN NOT BE:

Hebrews 9:25-26
"25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.'

I disagree I believe verses 22,23 &24 support may assertion while vereses 25 & 26 do not contradict it in any way.

Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

The Old Testament sacrifices were the pattern of things in the heavens, purified with the blood of bulls and goats Hebrews 9:13 the “heavenly things” were purified with the blood of Christ,.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Your claim that the theory I presented cannot be just because of Hebrews 9:25 IMHO does not hold up. You really did not give an explanation for why Jesus said touch me not for I have not yet ascended and then later said touch me. I think it very reasonable to assume He did ascend between those two events.

parousia70 said:
2 Corinthians 5:16
16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.

I take this to say they no longer knew Christ as He was in the flesh. How does that refute my point?

parousia70 said:
1 Timothy 6:14-16
14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, 15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

I fail to see the relevance here, please explain?

My question:
What text do you support the claim he was glorified at that moment and what text do you support the claim it was the same body He had before the incarnation?

parousia70 said:

John 17:5

What in John 17:5 tells us when that was done?

50 Reasons for the Pretribulation Rapture

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