Jesus Has Been Reigning Since Pentecost

Bobgf

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 20, 2008
411
33
Ohio
✟152,506.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
A well written OP imo, but I question the assertion that because Jesus is a literal descendant of Jaconiah this proves the throne of David is forever in heaven. This assertion is based on the prophecy of Jeremiah 22:28-30


Jeremiah 22:30 prophesied that no seed (blood descendant} of Jeconiah (aka Coniah) would sit on David's throne.

"for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David and ruling any more in Judah"


David's son Jeconiah was the ancestor of Mary's husband Joseph (Matthew 1:6-16)

While David's son Nathan was the blood ancestor of Mary herself (Luke 3:23-31)

So then, wont David's throne be passed down to Jesus via Nathan and not Jeconiah?
 
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟783,767.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
A well written OP imo, but I question the assertion that because Jesus is a literal descendant of Jaconiah this proves the throne of David is forever in heaven. This assertion is based on the prophecy of Jeremiah 22:28-30


Jeremiah 22:30 prophesied that no seed (blood descendant} of Jeconiah (aka Coniah) would sit on David's throne.

"for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David and ruling any more in Judah"


David's son Jeconiah was the ancestor of Mary's husband Joseph (Matthew 1:6-16)

While David's son Nathan was the blood ancestor of Mary herself (Luke 3:23-31)

So then, wont David's throne be passed down to Jesus via Nathan and not Jeconiah?
As I understand it, Christ's lineage is essentially dual, with Mary's through blood descent, and Joseph's through legal guardianship. There are to my knowledge (and I could be wrong) no explicit statements relating to the lineage through Mary that would allow us to identify the locale of David's throne. As seen, on Joseph's side, the curse of Jeconiah precludes an earthly throne; all of which leaves the heavenly throne as the only one which satisfies the known criteria.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Thedictator

Retired Coach, Now Missionary to the World
Mar 21, 2010
989
529
Northeast Texas
✟50,142.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
If Jesus is reigning over the earth now, He isn't doing a very good job of it!
No, your whole premise is wrong, as the NT says; Satan is the current world ruler.
Jesus will be King when He Returns and at the end of the Millennium, as 1 Corinthians 15:24 states; He will then hand back the Kingdom to God.

Sorry, But your wrong. The Kingdom of God is on the Earth now. The Kingdom of God has been on Earth for about 2,000 years. The Church is the Kingdom of God.
 
Upvote 0

claninja

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2017
5,647
2,189
indiana
✟298,336.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If Jesus is reigning over the earth now, He isn't doing a very good job of it!
No, your whole premise is wrong, as the NT says; Satan is the current world ruler.
Jesus will be King when He Returns and at the end of the Millennium, as 1 Corinthians 15:24 states; He will then hand back the Kingdom to God.

1 Corinthians 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

Acts 2:34-35 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, “‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”’

If Christ is at the right hand of God reigning UNTIL his enemies are made a footstool, that means there are enemies DURING his reign.
 
Upvote 0

claninja

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2017
5,647
2,189
indiana
✟298,336.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Jesus, the branch of David, is a priest on the throne at the same time: Zech 6:12-13
1. Christ will be a priest and king at the same time:

a. "Then say to him, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, "Behold, a man whose name is Branch, for He will branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the LORD. "Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the LORD, and He who will bear the honor and sit and rule on His throne. Thus, He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two offices." (Zechariah 6:12-13)

2. Christ has built his temple, the church, which is the kingdom: "Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are. " (1 Corinthians 3:16-17)

3. Jesus is on the throne of David now:

a. "And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE, he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ" (Acts 2:30-31)

b. "But of the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom. " (Hebrews 1:8)

4. If Christ were on earth, he could not be a priest of any kind. Only in heaven can he be a priest, and then only after the order of Melchizedek.

a. "Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; " (Hebrews 8:4)

b. "just as He says also in another passage, "YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK." " (Hebrews 5:6)

5. So it is clear, that Jesus is a king now and a priest now, and all this in heaven.

6. Jesus cannot be a king or priest on earth because he is a descendant of Jeconiah, and he is not a Levite.

This is a fantastic assessment of scripture, especially the above portion. Many people forget about Melchizedek, the king who was also a high priest during the time of Abraham. By comparing Christ to Melchizedek, the book of Hebrews is basically saying Christ is currently both King and and High Priest.
Not only does Christ fulfill Zechariah 6:12-23, but also Jeremiah 33:17-18
For thus says the Lord: David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, 18 and the Levitical priests shall never lack a man in my presence to offer burnt offerings, to burn cereal offerings, and to make sacrifices for ever.”
 
  • Like
Reactions: jgr
Upvote 0

LilShepherdBoy

Seek First the Kingdom of God & His Righteousness
Jun 15, 2015
302
151
Physically here but mentally with God.
✟43,206.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Can you prove this?

This is just the battles involving WW2, and no other wars or battles the last two thousand years.

List of World War II battles - Wikipedia

African and Middle Eastern Front
Main article: African Theatres of World War II
Mediterranean Front
Main article: Mediterranean and Middle East theatre of World War II
Western Front
Main article: Western Front (World War II)
Atlantic

Atlantic Ocean
Eastern Front
Main article: Eastern Front (World War II)
Indian Ocean

Indian Ocean theater of World War II
Pacific Theatre

Pacific Theatre of World War II
China

Chinese theater of World War II
Southeast Asia

South-East Asian theatre of World War II
 
  • Informative
Reactions: LastSeven
Upvote 0

nonaeroterraqueous

Nonexistent Member
Aug 16, 2014
2,915
2,724
✟188,987.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
He is also The Prince of peace. We've had more wars and deaths the last two thousand years than any other period in history.

It's true that we've had more deaths, and I assume you mean deaths by war, but we've also had a much higher population to begin with. On a per capita basis I think you'd have a much harder point to prove. In times past, it was only war, disease and childbearing deaths that kept populations down despite the lack of effective contraception. I think it's safe to say that we're doing a whole lot less dying, overall, and I suspect that war deaths is at an all-time low at the moment (fingers crossed), at least as measured by the likelihood of any given individual dying in a war.

This is just the battles involving WW2, and no other wars or battles the last two thousand years.

Now that was just a link dump, and it was cut and pasted, at that. Battles are not wars. A summary count would have sufficed. Numbers of battles is no indicator of numbers of wars, numbers of casualties, or per capita wartime deaths.
 
Upvote 0

LilShepherdBoy

Seek First the Kingdom of God & His Righteousness
Jun 15, 2015
302
151
Physically here but mentally with God.
✟43,206.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
It's true that we've had more deaths, and I assume you mean deaths by war, but we've also had a much higher population to begin with. On a per capita basis I think you'd have a much harder point to prove.

Actually, your assessment would only be correct if you can prove the population on earth the first 4000 years was less than the last 2000 years.

Battles are not wars.

This is incorrect. Battles are a part of wars.
 
Upvote 0

HeLeadethMe

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2017
417
368
64
Toronto
✟32,827.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
En
King Jesus sits on the Throne of David now
Introduction:

1. No Old Testament prophecy is so easily seen to be fulfilled at Pentecost as the fact that Jesus is sitting upon the throne of David now.

2. "He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. "I will be a father to him and he will be a son to Me; when he commits iniquity, I will correct him with the rod of men and the strokes of the sons of men, but My lovingkindness shall not depart from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you. "Your house and your kingdom shall endure before Me forever; your throne shall be established forever." (2 Samuel 7:13-16)

3. "There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this. " (Isaiah 9:7)

4. "A throne will even be established in lovingkindness, And a judge will sit on it in faithfulness in the tent of David; Moreover, he will seek justice And be prompt in righteousness. " (Isaiah 16:5)

5. "Then say to him, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, "Behold, a man whose name is Branch, for He will branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the LORD. "Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the LORD, and He who will bear the honor and sit and rule on His throne. Thus, He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two offices." (Zechariah 6:12-13)

6. "I have made a covenant with My chosen; I have sworn to David My servant, I will establish your seed forever And build up your throne to all generations." (Psalm 89:3-4)

7. ""Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. "And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE, he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY. "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET." ' "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified." (Acts 2:29-36)

A. Jesus cannot sit on David's throne on earth: Jer 22:29-30 + Mt 1:12
1. Earthly throne extinct:

a. "Is this man Coniah a despised, shattered jar? Or is he an undesirable vessel? Why have he and his descendants been hurled out And cast into a land that they had not known? "O land, land, land, Hear the word of the LORD! "Thus says the LORD, 'Write this man down childless, A man who will not prosper in his days; For no man of his descendants will prosper Sitting on the throne of David Or ruling again in Judah.' " (Jeremiah 22:28-30)

b. "After the deportation to Babylon: Jeconiah became the father of Shealtiel, and Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel. " (Matthew 1:12)

2. Notice that Jeremiah prophesied that no descendant of Jeconiah (aka Coniah) can ever sit on the throne of David in Judah.

3. Jesus Christ is a literal descendant of Coniah, proving the throne of David is forever in heaven.

B. Jesus must sit on David's throne now until the second coming:
1. Notice Jesus must reign until his enemies are defeated. The last enemy is death, which will be abolished at the resurrection:

a. "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET." ' "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified." " (Acts 2:34-36)

b. "For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. " (1 Corinthians 15:25-26)

c. "And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high ... But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM" ... But to which of the angels has He ever said, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET." (Hebrews 1:3,8,13)

d. "Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. " (Hebrews 10:11-13)

e. "'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne." (Revelation 3:21)

2. Christ is reigning NOW and will give up the throne to the Father at the second coming.

3. It becomes clear that Jesus is seated on the throne of David right now until the resurrection at the second coming.

C. Jesus vacates the throne of David at the second coming:
1. "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. " (1 Corinthians 15:22-28)

2. Did you notice that? At the second coming, Jesus hands over the kingdom to God which he has ruled since the resurrection.

3. This is exactly opposite to what pre-tribulation rapture teachers and premillennialists say. They have Christ sitting on the throne of David for the first time at the second coming, but the Bible says he has already been on the throne of David and gives it up to God, so God can be all in all.

D. Jesus, the branch of David, is a priest on the throne at the same time: Zech 6:12-13
1. Christ will be a priest and king at the same time:

a. "Then say to him, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, "Behold, a man whose name is Branch, for He will branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the LORD. "Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the LORD, and He who will bear the honor and sit and rule on His throne. Thus, He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two offices." (Zechariah 6:12-13)

2. Christ has built his temple, the church, which is the kingdom: "Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are. " (1 Corinthians 3:16-17)

3. Jesus is on the throne of David now:

a. "And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE, he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ" (Acts 2:30-31)

b. "But of the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom. " (Hebrews 1:8)

4. If Christ were on earth, he could not be a priest of any kind. Only in heaven can he be a priest, and then only after the order of Melchizedek.

a. "Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; " (Hebrews 8:4)

b. "just as He says also in another passage, "YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK." " (Hebrews 5:6)

5. So it is clear, that Jesus is a king now and a priest now, and all this in heaven.

6. Jesus cannot be a king or priest on earth because he is a descendant of Jeconiah, and he is not a Levite.

E. The earthly throne of David was apostasy that angered God from the time of Saul!

1. Premillennialists have never considered that the entire concept of an earthly throne is an apostasy that angered God from the time of the first king Saul to the last king before the Babylonian captivity.

2. Originally God was Israel's king and he reigned on his throne in heaven. But Israel asked for a king on earth, which was an apostasy and angered God so much he wiped out their crops. It is clear that God realized that he was being rejected and in a symbolic way, God allowed his throne to come down to earth and have men sit and rule in his place:

a. "But the thing was displeasing in the sight of Samuel when they said, "Give us a king to judge us." And Samuel prayed to the LORD. The LORD said to Samuel, "Listen to the voice of the people in regard to all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being king over them. " (1 Samuel 8:6-7)

b. ""Is it not the wheat harvest today? I will call to the LORD, that He may send thunder and rain. Then you will know and see that your wickedness is great which you have done in the sight of the LORD by asking for yourselves a king." " (1 Samuel 12:17)

c. ""When you saw that Nahash the king of the sons of Ammon came against you, you said to me, 'No, but a king shall reign over us,' although the LORD your God was your king. "Now therefore, here is the king whom you have chosen, whom you have asked for, and behold, the LORD has set a king over you. " (1 Samuel 12:12-13)

3. Nothing could be clearer in that the earthly throne was in fact a symbol of God's throne in heaven. Notice the earthly throne of David and Solomon is called "the throne of God", The throne of the Kingdom of God".

a. "Of all my sons (for the LORD has given me many sons), He has chosen my son Solomon to sit on the throne of the kingdom of the LORD over Israel." (1 Chronicles 28:5)

d. "Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father; and he prospered, and all Israel obeyed him. " (1 Chronicles 29:23)

b. "Blessed be the LORD your God who delighted in you, setting you on His throne as king for the LORD your God; because your God loved Israel establishing them forever, therefore He made you king over them, to do justice and righteousness." " (2 Chronicles 9:8)

c. "So now you intend to resist the kingdom of the LORD through the sons of David, being a great multitude and having with you the golden calves which Jeroboam made for gods for you. " (2 Chronicles 13:8)

4. The next king to sit on the throne of God was David and God promised in a rare double prophecy that two of his seed would sit on his throne: Solomon on earth and Christ in heaven at the resurrection:

a. "When your days are fulfilled that you must go to be with your fathers, that I will set up one of your descendants after you, who will be of your sons; and I will establish his kingdom. "He shall build for Me a house, and I will establish his throne forever. "I will be his father and he shall be My son; and I will not take My lovingkindness away from him, as I took it from him who was before you. "But I will settle him in My house and in My kingdom forever, and his throne shall be established forever."(1 Chronicles 17:11-14)

b. Notice that just as Solomon was king when he built the physical temple on earth, that Christ was the king who would build the church temple in heaven.

c. Christ had to be a king to build the temple. We are the temple of God, the church, our bodies!

d. Jesus must be sitting on the throne of David in order to build the church temple!

5. The next physical king to sit on the throne of God was Solomon

a. "And Solomon sat on the throne of David his father, and his kingdom was firmly established. " (1 Kings 2:12)

b. "Besides, Solomon has even taken his seat on the throne of the kingdom. "Moreover, the king's servants came to bless our lord King David, saying, 'May your God make the name of Solomon better than your name and his throne greater than your throne!' And the king bowed himself on the bed. "The king has also said thus, 'Blessed be the LORD, the God of Israel, who has granted one to sit on my throne today while my own eyes see it.' " " (1 Kings 1:46-48)

6. God was so angered by the disobedient paganism of the kings that sat on God's throne, that God removed the throne from the earth and brought it back to heaven till Jesus, the descendant of David would sit on it.

a. "It is your destruction, O Israel, That you are against Me, against your help. Where now is your king That he may save you in all your cities, And your judges of whom you requested, "Give me a king and princes"? I gave you a king in My anger And took him away in My wrath. " (Hosea 13:9-11)

7. Today Jesus Christ shares the throne with the Father, just as David shared the throne with God. Notice the kingdom is co-owned by God and Christ NOW:

a. "For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. " (Ephesians 5:5)

b. "'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne." (Revelation 3:21)

8. So you might say that the throne of God experienced a little early sightseeing tour because it left heaven, came to earth and stayed from Saul to the Babylonian captivity, and was then taken back to heaven to wait for Christ to die on the cross and sit on the throne of David, which was God's throne in heaven, where it always was, forever.

9. The entire notion of an earthly throne in Jerusalem for 1000 years not only has no support, it is an affront to God because the throne rightfully has always belonged in heaven.

10. A restored earthly throne as proposed by premillennialists would again anger God: "I gave you a king in My anger And took him away in My wrath. " (Hosea 13:9-11)

F. Christ has built the "temple of David" in the church which replaced the physical temple of David.

1. Passages:

a. "In that day I will raise up the fallen booth of David, And wall up its breaches; I will also raise up its ruins And rebuild it as in the days of old; That they may possess the remnant of Edom And all the nations who are called by My name," Declares the LORD who does this. " (Amos 9:11-12)

b. "Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. "With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, 'AFTERTHESE THINGS I will return, AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN, AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS, AND I WILL RESTORE IT, SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,' SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO. "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, " (Acts 15:14-19)

2. It is clear that the booth or tabernacle or temple of David has been built by Christ and is our body and the church, the kingdom.

3. Notice that if the "booth of David" is not rebuilt, then the gentiles cannot be saved.

4. This was precisely the argument that James used to prove the Gentiles could be saved without circumcision in the Jerusalem council.

5. Premillennialists and dispensationalists all fail to see that the idea of Christ coming back to earth to rebuild the physical "booth of David" in Jerusalem is untenable considering James says it is already built by Christ.

6. The sign Jesus gave to the Jews was that he would tear down the physical temple of David and REBUILD it in three days after he raised from the dead.

7. The idea of Jesus returning to build a stone temple denies the gospel and the blood sacrifice of Christ for the church on the cross.

G. No reason to bring Christ back to earth as his work is finished here:

1. His mission of redemption is complete: Eph 1:7-10; Col 1:13-14

2. His revelation is complete: Eph 3:1-10; Jude 3

3. His authority is complete: Matthew 28:18; Eph 1:20-21

4. Hi kingdom is complete: Col 1:13; Heb 12:28

5. His throne is Complete: Heb 4:13 Rev 3:21

6. His name is complete: Eph 1:22; Col 3:17; Phil 2:9-10

7. His glory is complete: Lk 24:25; 1 Pe 1:20-21

(God's Prophetic word, Foy E. Wallace, p 193, 1945)

Conclusion:

1. Jesus is seated upon the throne of David right now, and has been since Pentecost.

2. Christ is ruling in his kingdom, the church, right now and will do so until the second coming.

3. At the second coming, Jesus will give up the throne to God so that the Father may be all in all. "For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. " (1 Corinthians 15:25-28)

4. Rapture teaches the false doctrine that at the second coming Jesus starts to rule in his kingdom, and Jesus is a King without a kingdom now. The Bible teaches the opposite.

5. Dispensationalists do not understand that Jesus cannot be a king or priest on earth in Jerusalem EVER, because he is a descendant of Jeconiah, and he is not a Levite.

6. The earthly throne of David is now extinct forever. A restored earthly throne as proposed by premillennialists would again anger God: "I gave you a king in My anger And took him away in My wrath." (Hosea 13:9-11)


Appreciation to Premillennial Theology Refuted: Christ is on Throne of David NOW

Enjoyed a lot of this study, will print it off and look at it more closely. Just a couple of comments off the bat:

Regarding D6 where it was said that Jesus cannot be a priest on earth because He is not a Levite.....don't forget that there has been a CHANGE OF THE PRIESTHOOD, and moreover that His church is a priesthood of believers on earth.

E section is excellent about Israel demanding a king........the church did exactly the same thing, Israel being our ensample, I'm guessing it started soon after Paul died, where he said that after his departure wolves would come in.....and the Lord likewise allowed it, as He is ruling in all things. But it has always been God's will that Christ would rule the church as its Head, from heaven, the same way that He desired to rule ancient Israel from heaven as its invisible King.

Regarding the conclusion though, not sure I can agree......Jesus said to pray that His kingdom come to earth AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.......and this is what it means when New Jerusalem comes down to earth prepared as a Bride. Jesus is ruling and reigning from heaven now, I fully agree with your study about that, and enjoyed it very much.........but just that we do not yet see all things put under Him. I believe the millennial reign is when we will see His rule fully MANIFESTED on earth and then afterwards He will hand over the kingdom to the Father. And the devil will be released for a short while again before that, that part is dismaying to me, but the Lord must have His reasons for it, in His wisdom. Just some thoughts, bless you.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

precepts

Newbie
Aug 20, 2008
3,094
135
55
United States Virgin Islands
✟24,096.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
What we have here is the enforcers of the mark of the Beast, the ministers of Satan, the fake news media MSN, the Israeli intelligence, and law enforcement working to set a trap for the man that's revealing them in these times.

Nowhere in scripture does it say Christ begins reigning at Pentecost; but this is the type of mole hill made into a mountain that's done to get a certain revealer of the truth to take a look at the post, which is filled with their subliminal messages of hate and violence, all cloaked in white robes, fleece as white as snow, but inwardly are whiten sepulchres .

Babylon is fallen, is fallen! They can't stop the truth from being revealed. The conspiracy to "whitewash" the world, history, and religion is over; the image of the Beast is revealed, with all of its supporters!

Envy is of the Devil.

If the world wasn't of the Devil, there would be some serious repercussions going on right now, the way these entities are operating over the media, sending threats and trying to intimidate a US citizen.

And I dare anyone to call me out.

There is no justice. The rich will continue to abuse the poor because Satan runs the world. That is the reality. You just have to be awaken to it, by the truth in the scriptures, or by accident.

The laws and bylaws are nothing but an illusion to keep the sleeping in their slumber.

Stay tune. The saga continues!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Blade

Veteran
Site Supporter
Dec 29, 2002
8,167
3,991
USA
✟630,767.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Did not Jesus say.. as the guards ear was taken off..if this was my kingdom my servents would fight.. that He could call down "Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?"

What KINGDOM are you talking about? What you said about "Rapture".. CAUGHT UP.. will happen.. this written. Jesus said He will come back and get us.. WHEN.. is what NO ONE can say.. be ready NOW... or those that do not watch are not ready will miss Him. WE dont get to say when this happens.. HE DOES!

Now.. NO He is not sitting on Davids throne.. its in heaven is it? I cant find that written.
 
Upvote 0

Blade

Veteran
Site Supporter
Dec 29, 2002
8,167
3,991
USA
✟630,767.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There is nothing in the text that says the "Holy Spirit" is the thing taken away.
Satan seems to be doing a thorough job of deceiving now, when the Holy Spirit is here.


We have those under the Blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11.
A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church.


Therefore, you have failed to harmonize the scriptures as you suggest.

Have you harmonized the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8?

.

Forgive me for.. adding in or butting in? When I read that.. this how I see it.. as is truth. Jesus said.. behold I give you power....and over all the power of then enemy and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Truth yes? Greater is He that is in you then He thats in the world. Truth yes? The gates of hell will never over take the Church.. on and on. So we know that JESUS in us..we know that JESUS told us if we ask the Father for the holy Spirit the Father will give it. Jesus told the 120 to wait for the promise. That promise was as JESUS said.. He would ASK the Father for what? To be given to who?

The Holy Spirit leads and guides us into all truth. The book..or letters we are reading about are Pauls 1st letters. And they thought Jesus came and they missed Him. Paul tells them.. nope.. voice shout trump.. dead rise.. we then go with them to meet Christ in the air to be with Him forever. And we keep reading.. we find.. the lawless one that is being held back.. what has more power over satan? What can keep satan held back? What is greater in us? What power was given to us and over who?

If we read REV we find satan out in the open.. doing lying wonders that are NOT happening now. Like in the OT.. something happen.. CHRIST... all that what was will be again. But SOMETHING has to be out of the way. As we keep reading we find a "falling away".. yet in ancient Greek that was NOT the 1st meaning of that word. The 1st meaning is "departure"...then can also mean.

Forgive me but.. please..lets not say "satan" is deceiving because you dont agree with what someone else said. When that which is taken out of the way.. then and only then will the lawless one be known.. then and only then will he have power over ..do lying wonders. For me.. that day will NEVER COME! Satan can EVER have power over me. God will NEVER allow Satan to have power over JESUS in me. HE would have to go against HIS word.

Yet.. Satan will come out in the open.. will do lying wonders.. the two witness will be out in the open doing wonders.. gee just like in the OT again.. hmm..

What I say ..is how I read it.. FACTS TRUTHS.. Satan can never have power over ANY Believer in JESUS. Ever.. He can never haver power over the Church.. ever. That has to be taken out of the way.. I do not read that the Holy Spirit is gone from the world.. I cant find that. I do know...God will not strive with man for ever.

This ALL will turn out like HE SAID..not your way or mine. Jesus said.. He is coming for HIS own.. To take us to WHERE He is. He said.. WHERE I go you know.. WHERE is he? That is where He will take us.. for me? I believe Him.. He will come get me.. HE cant lie.. WHEN? NOW.. it will always be NOW. I am ready NOW! I will never see the AntiChrist.. nor will I ever see the wrath of GOD as was is..written in OT and NT! Lot... "as long as you are still here I can do nothing" that was just ONE righteous man. Gods wrath could not touch those cities because of ONE righteous. Now what is COMING is Gods wrath not for some city but the world. Something has to be taken out of the way.. for satan to come out in the open.. what for some odd reason.. he cant not even now...well .. I or you alone have all power over EVERY demon.. EVERY fallen angel.. just ONE believer.. yet.. we are over joyed that our names are written in Heaven.. my out look on this :)

Forgive me.. didnt mean to nor want to derail? This thread..
 
Upvote 0

claninja

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2017
5,647
2,189
indiana
✟298,336.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Did not Jesus say.. as the guards ear was taken off..if this was my kingdom my servents would fight.. that He could call down "Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?"

What KINGDOM are you talking about? What you said about "Rapture".. CAUGHT UP.. will happen.. this written. Jesus said He will come back and get us.. WHEN.. is what NO ONE can say.. be ready NOW... or those that do not watch are not ready will miss Him. WE dont get to say when this happens.. HE DOES!

Now.. NO He is not sitting on Davids throne.. its in heaven is it? I cant find that written.

The "my servants would fight" is in reference to when Pilate asks jesus what he has done. Jesus replied John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”

Therefore we know, Jesus' kingdom is not of this world
 
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟783,767.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Forgive me for.. adding in or butting in? When I read that.. this how I see it.. as is truth. Jesus said.. behold I give you power....and over all the power of then enemy and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Truth yes? Greater is He that is in you then He thats in the world. Truth yes? The gates of hell will never over take the Church.. on and on. So we know that JESUS in us..we know that JESUS told us if we ask the Father for the holy Spirit the Father will give it. Jesus told the 120 to wait for the promise. That promise was as JESUS said.. He would ASK the Father for what? To be given to who?

The Holy Spirit leads and guides us into all truth. The book..or letters we are reading about are Pauls 1st letters. And they thought Jesus came and they missed Him. Paul tells them.. nope.. voice shout trump.. dead rise.. we then go with them to meet Christ in the air to be with Him forever. And we keep reading.. we find.. the lawless one that is being held back.. what has more power over satan? What can keep satan held back? What is greater in us? What power was given to us and over who?

If we read REV we find satan out in the open.. doing lying wonders that are NOT happening now. Like in the OT.. something happen.. CHRIST... all that what was will be again. But SOMETHING has to be out of the way. As we keep reading we find a "falling away".. yet in ancient Greek that was NOT the 1st meaning of that word. The 1st meaning is "departure"...then can also mean.

Forgive me but.. please..lets not say "satan" is deceiving because you dont agree with what someone else said. When that which is taken out of the way.. then and only then will the lawless one be known.. then and only then will he have power over ..do lying wonders. For me.. that day will NEVER COME! Satan can EVER have power over me. God will NEVER allow Satan to have power over JESUS in me. HE would have to go against HIS word.

Yet.. Satan will come out in the open.. will do lying wonders.. the two witness will be out in the open doing wonders.. gee just like in the OT again.. hmm..

What I say ..is how I read it.. FACTS TRUTHS.. Satan can never have power over ANY Believer in JESUS. Ever.. He can never haver power over the Church.. ever. That has to be taken out of the way.. I do not read that the Holy Spirit is gone from the world.. I cant find that. I do know...God will not strive with man for ever.

This ALL will turn out like HE SAID..not your way or mine. Jesus said.. He is coming for HIS own.. To take us to WHERE He is. He said.. WHERE I go you know.. WHERE is he? That is where He will take us.. for me? I believe Him.. He will come get me.. HE cant lie.. WHEN? NOW.. it will always be NOW. I am ready NOW! I will never see the AntiChrist.. nor will I ever see the wrath of GOD as was is..written in OT and NT! Lot... "as long as you are still here I can do nothing" that was just ONE righteous man. Gods wrath could not touch those cities because of ONE righteous. Now what is COMING is Gods wrath not for some city but the world. Something has to be taken out of the way.. for satan to come out in the open.. what for some odd reason.. he cant not even now...well .. I or you alone have all power over EVERY demon.. EVERY fallen angel.. just ONE believer.. yet.. we are over joyed that our names are written in Heaven.. my out look on this :)

Forgive me.. didnt mean to nor want to derail? This thread..
No problem, Blade, we're happy to address any and all questions.

The early church believed that the imperial Roman empire, under which the church was then living, was the restrainer, forestalling the emergence of the papal Roman empire, which Paul describes as the lawless one; and the ensuing apostasy. Notice in the related verses in 2 Thess. 2 that Paul does not reveal the identity of the restrainer. If Paul had believed that the Holy Spirit was the restrainer, there would have been no reason for him not to explicitly name the Holy Spirit. But Paul did have a reason. John Chrysostom, an apologist of the later post-apostolic era, explains why:

"Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him. And otherwise he ought now to have come, if he was about to come when the gifts ceased; for they have long since ceased. But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."

History subsequently confirmed that understanding.


The claim of the "apostasia" in 2 Thess. 2:3 being a "rapture departure" has been convincingly disproved.

Apostacia: What Modern Greeks say about "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3.

Excerpt: "I could find no debate among Greek speaking Christians on how to interpret this verse. They all interpret "apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 to mean "apostacy"."

Greek's best interpreters are the Greeks.

Hope this has been of some help.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Marilyn C

Pre-tribulation.
Site Supporter
Dec 26, 2013
4,818
598
Victoria
✟597,987.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
King Jesus sits on the Throne of David now

Hi jgr,

While I agree with much of what you wrote I will just focus on the above statement which I believe is incorrect.

There is a sense in which Christ inherited the title King from His identifying Himself with the house of David, the tribe of Judah in the nation of Israel. Such connections, however, do by no means fully and adequately explain His kingly power and royal nature. His kingly authority is underived, His kingly majesty unconferred, and His kingly glory unimparted on the basis of this world`s standards.

Before Christ`s manifestation upon earth, in His deity He had many titles of kingship and the other kingships will be realised also.

King of Glory. (Ps. 24: 7)
King of heaven. (Dan. 4: 37)
King of the Ages. (1 Tim. 1: 17)
King of Righteousness. (Heb. 7: 1 – 3)
King of Kings. (Rev. 19: 12)
King of Israel. (John 1 : 49)
King of the Jews. (Matt. 2: 2)
King of the Nations. (Rev. 15: 3)

Marilyn
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Forgive me for.. adding in or butting in? When I read that.. this how I see it.. as is truth. Jesus said.. behold I give you power....and over all the power of then enemy and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Truth yes? Greater is He that is in you then He thats in the world. Truth yes? The gates of hell will never over take the Church.. on and on. So we know that JESUS in us..we know that JESUS told us if we ask the Father for the holy Spirit the Father will give it. Jesus told the 120 to wait for the promise. That promise was as JESUS said.. He would ASK the Father for what? To be given to who?

The Holy Spirit leads and guides us into all truth. The book..or letters we are reading about are Pauls 1st letters. And they thought Jesus came and they missed Him. Paul tells them.. nope.. voice shout trump.. dead rise.. we then go with them to meet Christ in the air to be with Him forever. And we keep reading.. we find.. the lawless one that is being held back.. what has more power over satan? What can keep satan held back? What is greater in us? What power was given to us and over who?

If we read REV we find satan out in the open.. doing lying wonders that are NOT happening now. Like in the OT.. something happen.. CHRIST... all that what was will be again. But SOMETHING has to be out of the way. As we keep reading we find a "falling away".. yet in ancient Greek that was NOT the 1st meaning of that word. The 1st meaning is "departure"...then can also mean.

Forgive me but.. please..lets not say "satan" is deceiving because you dont agree with what someone else said. When that which is taken out of the way.. then and only then will the lawless one be known.. then and only then will he have power over ..do lying wonders. For me.. that day will NEVER COME! Satan can EVER have power over me. God will NEVER allow Satan to have power over JESUS in me. HE would have to go against HIS word.

Yet.. Satan will come out in the open.. will do lying wonders.. the two witness will be out in the open doing wonders.. gee just like in the OT again.. hmm..

What I say ..is how I read it.. FACTS TRUTHS.. Satan can never have power over ANY Believer in JESUS. Ever.. He can never haver power over the Church.. ever. That has to be taken out of the way.. I do not read that the Holy Spirit is gone from the world.. I cant find that. I do know...God will not strive with man for ever.

This ALL will turn out like HE SAID..not your way or mine. Jesus said.. He is coming for HIS own.. To take us to WHERE He is. He said.. WHERE I go you know.. WHERE is he? That is where He will take us.. for me? I believe Him.. He will come get me.. HE cant lie.. WHEN? NOW.. it will always be NOW. I am ready NOW! I will never see the AntiChrist.. nor will I ever see the wrath of GOD as was is..written in OT and NT! Lot... "as long as you are still here I can do nothing" that was just ONE righteous man. Gods wrath could not touch those cities because of ONE righteous. Now what is COMING is Gods wrath not for some city but the world. Something has to be taken out of the way.. for satan to come out in the open.. what for some odd reason.. he cant not even now...well .. I or you alone have all power over EVERY demon.. EVERY fallen angel.. just ONE believer.. yet.. we are over joyed that our names are written in Heaven.. my out look on this :)

Forgive me.. didnt mean to nor want to derail? This thread..

There is no need to apologize.
Feel free to give your opinion and then have it compared to God's Word.


The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

The New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13.

The New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.

Therefore, there is no end to the "Church Age" before the Second Coming of Christ.

In Revelation 12:11 we find those under the Blood of the Lamb. A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church.


.
 
Upvote 0

Marilyn C

Pre-tribulation.
Site Supporter
Dec 26, 2013
4,818
598
Victoria
✟597,987.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There is no need to apologize.
Feel free to give your opinion and then have it compared to God's Word.


The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

The New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13.

The New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.

Therefore, there is no end to the "Church Age" before the Second Coming of Christ.

In Revelation 12:11 we find those under the Blood of the Lamb. A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church.


.

Hi BABerean,

The New Covenant is Christ not the Church. Thus those in the trib. can be under the blood of the Lamb, (the symbol used in relation to Israel). Note those who overcame the beast sang the song of Moses. (again in relation to Israel and their purpose under Christ.) (Rev. 15: 2 - 4)

Marilyn.

Marilyn.
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hi BABerean,

The New Covenant is Christ not the Church. Thus those in the trib. can be under the blood of the Lamb, (the symbol used in relation to Israel). Note those who overcame the beast sang the song of Moses. (again in relation to Israel and their purpose under Christ.) (Rev. 15: 2 - 4)

Marilyn.

Marilyn.

As we see in Matthew 26:28, and Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 12:22-24, Christ and the New Covenant and the Church cannot be separated.
Every time we commemorate the Lord's Supper we are reminded of this fact.
The Church is made up of all those who have placed their faith in Christ, starting on the Day of Pentecost. When it began almost all of its members were Israelites. (Acts 2:36) The Church as a whole has never been a "Gentile Church", as Dispensationalists often claim.



You fail to understand that Christ is the ultimate fulfillment of Israel, found in Matthew 1:1, and confirmed by Paul in Galatians 3:16.


Your doctrine is based at least partially on race, instead of Grace.
We are told to avoid genealogy in 1 Timothy 1:4.


You are replacing Israel of the Promise with Israel of the Flesh in Romans 9:8.

.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Marilyn C

Pre-tribulation.
Site Supporter
Dec 26, 2013
4,818
598
Victoria
✟597,987.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
As we see in Matthew 26:28, and Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 12:22-24, Christ and the New Covenant and the Church cannot be separated.
Every time we commemorate the Lord's Supper we are reminded of this fact.
The Church is made up of all those who have placed their faith in Christ, starting on the Day of Pentecost. When it began almost all of its members were Israelites. (Acts 2:36) The Church as a whole has never been a "Gentile Church", as Dispensationalists often claim.



You fail to understand that Christ is the ultimate fulfillment of Israel, found in Matthew 1:1, and confirmed by Paul in Galatians 3:16.


Your doctrine is based at least partially on race, instead of Grace.
We are told to avoid genealogy in 1 Timothy 1:4.


You are replacing Israel of the Promise with Israel of the Flesh in Romans 9:8.

.

Hi BABarean,

God has made the nation of Israel as an earthly nation who have been promised that they will rule the nations of the world. The Lord will turn their partial blindness, and hardened hearts, to Him when He returns. Why would God make a special nation for a purpose and then do away with that purpose?

Marilyn.
 
Upvote 0