The Double Message of Eternal Security.

JLB777 · Jul 5, 2017

Jason0047 said:
I think God knows those who will seek to justify sin or not in this life. But if a believer dies in sins that lead to spiritual death without asking for forgiveness of such sin, then they are not saved. God is in control of life and death. If they die in unrepentant sin that leads to spiritual death (like murder, hate, adultery, etc.), it is a judgment against them. Yes, I believe God is patient and He is not willing that any should perish so He gives men time or space to ask God for the forgiveness of their sin.

Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” 2 Timothy 2:19

Jason0047 said:
We beat this horse to death in another thread and we both came out of it by not agreeing with one another. I think it is best to agree to disagree on this one and let it rest.

The Truth of the scriptures remain.

The command of the Gospel that is to be obeyed, if one obeys the Gospel is, Repent.

Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand, is the Gospel Jesus Christ preached.

From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Matthew 4:17

“The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.” Mark 1:15

Not repent of your sins.

Repent means to turn to God.

If you are called to turn to God, then by default you are called to turn from Satan as your lord.

The way that your express this obedience of faith, concerning the Gospel is to confess Jesus as Lord.

This is what grants the believer/obeyer of the Gospel, the forgiveness of sins.

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38

Peter did not say "repent of your sins".

A person can not "stop sinning" without the born again new Nature empowered by the Holy Spirit.

The way we are granted this, is by repenting, which means turning away from Satan and his kingdom, and turning to God, and confessing Jesus as Lord.

This is plainly what the Lord Jesus Christ taught to and commissioned Paul to do.

15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:15-18

Repent is about being transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God.

It's about changing who you serve, as your Lord.

The Gospel of the kingdom is about changing the kingdom your are in, by changing the Lord you serve.

To believe the Gospel is to obey the Gospel.

Unbelief is disobedience; same Greek word in the New Testament, and are used interchangeably.

Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, Hebrews 4:6 NKJV

Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV

JLB

stuart lawrence · Jul 5, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
I excuse the sins we commit WHILE walking in the Spirit, not willfully walking in the flesh. If we are continually walking in the Spirit why would John say the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin? So it isn't that we don't sin, but just as the OT says there are sins we commit UNINTENTIONALY. That goes to motive. We don't even realize we are sinning to even repent. That is how I understand what Jason is saying, but I refuse to speak for either of you again, and only speak for myself. It is clear you both want to remain in the flesh toward each other. Maybe it is a man thing.

And Jason certainly does believe the Christian is under a righteousness of observing: thou shalt not. And you acknowledge, seeking such a righteousness stirs up sin in the individual.
Sometimes you have to choose between defending biblical truth and defending a buddy

1stcenturylady · Jul 5, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
And Jason certainly does believe the Christian is under a righteousness of observing: thou shalt not. And you acknowledge, seeking such a righteousness stirs up sin in the individual.
Sometimes you have to choose between defending biblical truth and defending a buddy

As I said, I'm not speaking for either of you again. You both think the worst of each other, and refuse to acknowledge any good. So knock yourselves out.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 5, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
I'm not going to trawl through past threads. I have no need. Anyone who partook of them knows what you many times stated, as you do also of course.
Here's another question.
You have many
times stated the Christian is only released from a righteousness of observing law not applicable under the NC. Therefore they are righteous in your view by obeying the TC and certain( you say now) NT commands.

So which NT commands do you not have to obey to be righteous before God?

It's ok, I know you won't answer the question, you never do

Your question relates to something I said that I do not remember. I will be happy to answer your question if you find the post # you are referring to. You keep repeating your false accusations as if that somehow will change things. You said I was not willing to answer the question. But again, that would be like asking me what I had for breakfast on February 7th. I said before I do not have a photographic memory and do not recall the exact words I used in relation to what you are talking about in your question. You say I was refusing to answer, which is simply not true; And now you are saying I am lying, too.

In other words, I cannot currently answer your question because you made it impossible for me to recall or find the exact post of what you are referring to. It has nothing to do with me not wanting to answer. You simply made it impossible for me to answer.

I know. You want my belief to fit in a nice little neat box to make your personal belief make sense; But it doesn't work like that. I said to you many times I believe there are sins unto spiritual death and sins that are not unto spiritual death (1 John 5:16-17).

I also asked you to explain Ephesians 5:5 before you asked your impossible question. Yet, I did not get an answer. If you did explain this verse, I must have missed it. But I would like to you to explain it to me now if you can. How do you rationalize Ephesians 5:5 with your belief?

...

Kenny'sID · Jul 5, 2017

corinth77777 said:
Kenny'sID said: ↑
Who here is saying it's ok to live in the flesh?

You asked me to be specific...

This is about eternal security, and all some of us, including myself, are saying is, if we live in the flesh, and continue in sin without repentance, we have no eternal security. While others say we can live in the flesh and still be saved. Are we still on the same subject. Or are we actually in agreement?
Corinth 77777
That post you reponded to was a response to someone asking what the gospel was. It was never intended for you. I did not have to respond at all.
And if I knew of your demeanor I might not have. I responded in the way that I thought. And if that was not good enough for you then it's best we ignore each other.
How does one speak of living like Christ if it doesn't even come across that way in their tone. Accept people how they are. Or choose to ignore them. Don't give your demand because you didn't get answer like you wanted.
In this setting and especially this thread we should even the more express the image of Christ.
Enjoy....Its better you be ignored so we do not have confrontation.

Again God doesn't rule us in this age, he allows us free will and lets us rule ourselves and we choose to put ourselves under his rule or not. He makes the rules and watches to see if we accept and apply them to our lives. Maybe we can agree he lays down the rules but doesn't force them upon us.

And you didn't answer either of my two questions...the ones you actually quoted. Please understand, direct answers would be what I needed to make my point

No one is forcing you to answer a thing

"Accept people how they are. Or choose to ignore them"?

Who have I not accepted? I have no idea where that came from.

So, now I have become non Christian or un Christ like as you put it, because you don't like my tone? And you are actually making that extremely judgmental/serious accusation and you have a problem with MY tone? Hmm.

That's ok, I think I know what is really going on, and you won't be the first to back out because you weren't able to hold your ground or answer the questions.

And to think, I actually toned it down in my last post because you seemed a bit tender. No good deed goes unpunished.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 5, 2017

corinth77777 said:
We do not keep the law by trying to keep the law.......

Well, before I address the spiritually born again believer and the Lord working in them, first, it must be clarified that believers obey the New Covenant Law and not the Old Covenant Law.

For Paul was not referring to all forms of "law" in Romans and Galatians. No verse actually says that. He primarily referred to the Old Covenant Law. This is evident in the fact that he spoke against "circumcision" in Romans 3:1, and Galatians 5:2.

Paul says there is Law under the New Covenant. In fact, he said that what he has written should be regarded as the Lord's Commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37). Paul also says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). The New Testament mentions that there is:

(a) The Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2),
(b) The Royal Law (James 2:8),
(c) The Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2).

Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is a commandment (or law) (1 John 3:23), and repentance is a command (or law) (Acts of the Apostles 17:30). So I really do not see how God's Word is in opposition to Law in the New Testament as most Christians believe today. Jesus says if you love me, you will keep my commandments (John 14:15). Revelation towards the end says,

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." (Revelation 22:14-15).

John says in his first epistle, "he that does righteousness is righteous" (1 John 3:7).

Second, please consider these verses, as well.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "
(1 Timothy 6:3-4).
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).
"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).
"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

And there are of course many more verses like these, as well.

You said:
DW

DW? Please explain.

You said:
would say we keep the law by becoming the type of person from the heart that naturally keeps it.....We first make the inside clean before any works on the outside can be of our pure heart. We do it by trusting Jesus for everything...seek ye first the kingdom and his righteousness and all things will be added unto you.

I am not arguing against the idea that a person needs to accept Jesus as their Savior, ask Him for forgiveness of their sins, and believe He died and was risen on their behalf as a part of being born again spiritually. A person who is born again spiritually will have a new heart with new desires. But from that point on, they will seek to obey God's commands in the New Testament by the Lord working in them. For a person cannot be saved without abiding in Christ (1 John 5:12). If one abides in Christ then primarily good fruit and not bad fruit will be evident in their life.

...

Bible Highlighter · Jul 5, 2017

JLB777 said:
Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” 2 Timothy 2:19

Love this verse. It's beautiful; And I agree with you on it.
We need to pray for those who attempt to change verses like these.

You said:
The Truth of the scriptures remain.

The command of the Gospel that is to be obeyed, if one obeys the Gospel is, Repent.

Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand, is the Gospel Jesus Christ preached.

From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Matthew 4:17

“The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.” Mark 1:15

Not repent of your sins.

Repent means to turn to God.

If you are called to turn to God, then by default you are called to turn from Satan as your lord.

The way that your express this obedience of faith, concerning the Gospel is to confess Jesus as Lord.

This is what grants the believer/obeyer of the Gospel, the forgiveness of sins.

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38

Peter did not say "repent of your sins".

A person can not "stop sinning" without the born again new Nature empowered by the Holy Spirit.

The way we are granted this, is by repenting, which means turning away from Satan and his kingdom, and turning to God, and confessing Jesus as Lord.

This is plainly what the Lord Jesus Christ taught to and commissioned Paul to do.

15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:15-18

Repent is about being transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God.

It's about changing who you serve, as your Lord.

The Gospel of the kingdom is about changing the kingdom your are in, by changing the Lord you serve.

To believe the Gospel is to obey the Gospel.

Unbelief is disobedience; same Greek word in the New Testament, and are used interchangeably.

Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, Hebrews 4:6 NKJV

Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV

JLB

I appreciate your persistance, but I am afraid we already been down this road before. It is best we agree to disagree on this one, my friend.

May God's love forever be upon you.
It is comforting to know that you are at least against those who attempt to turn God's grace into a license for immorality.

Peace be unto you.
And please be well.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.

...

Bible Highlighter · Jul 5, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
As I said, I'm not speaking for either of you again. You both think the worst of each other, and refuse to acknowledge any good. So knock yourselves out.

Dear 1st Century Lady:

Well, I am commanded by God to pray, do good, and to love my enemies.
So I do not hate Stuart, but I love him and desire him to see what I see.
I believe in hating the sin and loving the sinner.
But that does not mean I am in acceptance of wrong doctrines or sin.

You have to understand the reasons why we are not chummy with each other. Stuart no doubt hates my belief because he thinks I am telling others to do things that I myself don't do (When that is not the case). Actually, I am telling people to obey God's commands in the New Testament as a part of the goal in the process of Sanctification. Nowhere am I saying for them to obey all of the NT commands so as to be saved; And nor am I saying they can obey all of the NT commands overnight. It takes time to do the study and to place these command in your heart.

Now, I hate Stuart's belief (and I do not hate Stuart as a person) because while he may make claims that a believer will live holy, I think he is also justifying a sin and still be saved type doctrine because he has admitted to me before that the keeping of the moral law does not relate to our salvation in any way. He also said before that he sins and is not perfect and that God is faithful to him when he does sin (Whatever that means). However, I see it as if you tell a person that they are saved by having a belief on Jesus and it is not in anything they do, I do not see how that gospel message leads a believer to living holy as he suggests. A person cannot sin and yet also be holy. I see such a belief leading it's listeners to live in sin with the thinking they are saved. For if a a law was passed tomorrow that said that there is no speed limit on the highway, then more people are going to do the wrong thing and speed and get into car accidents. This all sounds like Eternal Security. If such is the case, then there are testimonies of people who have came out of Eternal Security who felt trapped or enslaved to their sin. Then there are testimonies of others who I believe were destroyed because of their belief in OSAS.

Just check out these testimonies below.

Ex OSAS Audio Testimonies:
Testimonies of former eternal security believers

Suicide & OSAS:
A tragic story of an OSAS believer.

A Pastor's Testimony on OSAS:
A testimony about OSAS by a Pastor's wife.

Hooked on Sin & OSAS:
Out Of Darkness | NO Eternal Security | Christian Testimony

Mass Murder, Suicide, & OSAS:
George Sodini

Now, Stuart may or may not believe in Eternal Security, but he definitely holds to the belief that "Sin does not separate a believer from God" by what he has said here on the forums. However, this belief is no different than Eternal Security because both beliefs seek to justify sin (Regardless of whether or not they say to you or others that a believer is marked by living a more holy life). That is the deception. They may tell you the Westboro Baptist church is not saved or the church that is into sexual immorality is not saved, but If you pay close attention to their words, they also say they can sin and be saved in their state of sin, too. What sins? To what extent? We do not know. That is what this thread is all about. Eternal Security preaches a two fold message.

Anyways, I hope this helps.
May God bless you.
And please be well.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.

...

1stcenturylady · Jul 5, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Dear 1st Century Lady:

Well, I am commanded by God to pray, do good, and to love my enemies.
So I do not hate Stuart, but I love him and desire him to see what I see.
I believe in hating the sin and loving the sinner.
But that does not mean I am in acceptance of wrong doctrines or sin.

You have to understand the reasons why we are not chummy with each other. Stuart no doubt hates my belief because he thinks I am telling others to do things that I myself don't do (When that is not the case). Actually, I am telling people to obey God's commands in the New Testament as a part of the goal in the process of Sanctification. Nowhere am I saying for them to obey all of the NT commands so as to be saved; And nor am I saying they can obey all of the NT commands overnight. It takes time to do the study and to place these command in your heart.

Now, I hate Stuart's belief (and I do not hate Stuart the person) because while he may make claims that a believer will live holy, I think he is also justifying a sin and still be saved type doctrine because he has admitted to me before that the keeping of the moral law does not relate to our salvation in any way. He also said before that he sins and is not perfect and that God is faithful to him when he does sin (Whatever that means). However, I see it as if you tell a person that they are saved by having a belief on Jesus and it is not in anything they do, I do not see how that gospel message leads a believer to living holy as he suggests. A person cannot sin and yet also be holy. I see such a belief leading it's listeners to live in sin with the thinking they are saved. For if a a law was passed tomorrow that said that there is no speed limit on the highway, then more people are going to do the wrong thing and speed and get into car accidents. This all sounds like Eternal Security. If such is the case, then there are testimonies of people who have came out of Eternal Security who felt trapped or enslaved to their sin. Then there are testimonies of others who I believe were destroyed because of their belief in OSAS.

Just check out these testimonies below.

Ex OSAS Audio Testimonies:
Testimonies of former eternal security believers

Suicide & OSAS:
A tragic story of an OSAS believer.

A Pastor's Testimony on OSAS:
A testimony about OSAS by a Pastor's wife.

Hooked on Sin & OSAS:
Out Of Darkness | NO Eternal Security | Christian Testimony

Mass Murder, Suicide, & OSAS:
George Sodini

Now, Stuart may or may not believe in Eternal Security, but he definitely holds to the belief that "Sin does not separate a believer from God" by what he has said here on the forums. However, this belief is no different than Eternal Security because both beliefs seek to justify sin (Regardless of whether or not they say to you or others that a believer is marked by living a more holy life). That is the deception. They may tell you the Westboro Baptist church is not saved or the church that is into sexual immorality is not saved, but If you pay close attention to their words, they also say they can sin and be saved in their state of sin, too. What sins? To what extent? We do not know. That is what this thread is all about. Eternal Security preaches a two fold message.

Anyways, I hope this helps.
May God bless you.
And please be well.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.

...

To both of you:

Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 5, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
To both of you:

Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

I will repeat what I said that you obviously skipped over.

Well, I am commanded by God to pray, do good, and to love my enemies.
So I do not hate Stuart, but I love him and desire him to see what I see.
I believe in hating the sin and loving the sinner.
But that does not mean I am in acceptance of wrong doctrines or sin.

....

Bible Highlighter · Jul 5, 2017

Eternal Security or a belief that says: "No Sin Can Separate You From God" is a belief that seeks to justify sin. Paul says have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. Now, I do not quote Scripture out of malice, but out of love because I actually do care for men's souls so as to lead them to the knowledge of the truth.

...

Bible Highlighter · Jul 5, 2017

"Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
(2 Thessalonians 3:6).

....

1stcenturylady · Jul 5, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Dear 1st Century Lady:

Well, I am commanded by God to pray, do good, and to love my enemies.
So I do not hate Stuart, but I love him and desire him to see what I see.
I believe in hating the sin and loving the sinner.
But that does not mean I am in acceptance of wrong doctrines or sin.

You have to understand the reasons why we are not chummy with each other. Stuart no doubt hates my belief because he thinks I am telling others to do things that I myself don't do (When that is not the case). Actually, I am telling people to obey God's commands in the New Testament as a part of the goal in the process of Sanctification. Nowhere am I saying for them to obey all of the NT commands so as to be saved; And nor am I saying they can obey all of the NT commands overnight. It takes time to do the study and to place these command in your heart.

Now, I hate Stuart's belief (and I do not hate Stuart as a person) because while he may make claims that a believer will live holy, I think he is also justifying a sin and still be saved type doctrine because he has admitted to me before that the keeping of the moral law does not relate to our salvation in any way. He also said before that he sins and is not perfect and that God is faithful to him when he does sin (Whatever that means). However, I see it as if you tell a person that they are saved by having a belief on Jesus and it is not in anything they do, I do not see how that gospel message leads a believer to living holy as he suggests. A person cannot sin and yet also be holy. I see such a belief leading it's listeners to live in sin with the thinking they are saved. For if a a law was passed tomorrow that said that there is no speed limit on the highway, then more people are going to do the wrong thing and speed and get into car accidents. This all sounds like Eternal Security. If such is the case, then there are testimonies of people who have came out of Eternal Security who felt trapped or enslaved to their sin. Then there are testimonies of others who I believe were destroyed because of their belief in OSAS.

Just check out these testimonies below.

Ex OSAS Audio Testimonies:
Testimonies of former eternal security believers

Suicide & OSAS:
A tragic story of an OSAS believer.

A Pastor's Testimony on OSAS:
A testimony about OSAS by a Pastor's wife.

Hooked on Sin & OSAS:
Out Of Darkness | NO Eternal Security | Christian Testimony

Mass Murder, Suicide, & OSAS:
George Sodini

Now, Stuart may or may not believe in Eternal Security, but he definitely holds to the belief that "Sin does not separate a believer from God" by what he has said here on the forums. However, this belief is no different than Eternal Security because both beliefs seek to justify sin (Regardless of whether or not they say to you or others that a believer is marked by living a more holy life). That is the deception. They may tell you the Westboro Baptist church is not saved or the church that is into sexual immorality is not saved, but If you pay close attention to their words, they also say they can sin and be saved in their state of sin, too. What sins? To what extent? We do not know. That is what this thread is all about. Eternal Security preaches a two fold message.

Anyways, I hope this helps.
May God bless you.
And please be well.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.

...

You said stuart "has admitted to me before that the keeping of the moral law does not relate to our salvation in any way."

The moral law is holy, and the Jews had it also. But their flesh was still roaring like a lion. Nothing could tame the beast until Jesus gave us His own Spirit to calm the savage flesh. That is the same as what stuart and I have discussed, so I know what he believes. It is not the law that can save us, because being told not to do something, creates a craving for the forbidden fruit. That is what Romans 7 is about. It called that law the law of sin and death. But Romans 8 is saying 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

So when you say we are still under the law of sin and death, when Paul just said we are free from it, stuart balks, because he believes it is ONLY the law of the Spirit of life in Christ that we are really under, and saves us. Not both, as you have said. The moral law just says to not murder. But the law of the Spirit of life in Christ prevents us from even hating.

stuart lawrence · Jul 6, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Your question relates to something I said that I do not remember. I will be happy to answer your question if you find the post # you are referring to. You keep repeating your false accusations as if that somehow will change things. You said I was not willing to answer the question. But again, that would be like asking me what I had for breakfast on February 7th. I said before I do not have a photographic memory and do not recall the exact words I used in relation to what you are talking about in your question. You say I was refusing to answer, which is simply not true; And now you are saying I am lying, too.

In other words, I cannot currently answer your question because you made it impossible for me to recall or find the exact post of what you are referring to. It has nothing to do with me not wanting to answer. You simply made it impossible for me to answer.

I know. You want my belief to fit in a nice little neat box to make your personal belief make sense; But it doesn't work like that. I said to you many times I believe there are sins unto spiritual death and sins that are not unto spiritual death (1 John 5:16-17).

I also asked you to explain Ephesians 5:5 before you asked your impossible question. Yet, I did not get an answer. If you did explain this verse, I must have missed it. But I would like to you to explain it to me now if you can. How do you rationalize Ephesians 5:5 with your belief?

...

I will ignore your protestations you do not remember what you on many, many occasions frequently stated. All I will say is, my conscience would not allow me to act like that.

As for your eph5:5 quote in a desperate attempt to refuse to accept what Paul wrote as clear as day in rom ch7.

You did get the answer, you just cannot understand the message.
The answer is rom3:31 & rom6:14
But you don't understand that do you.
But like I say, as you refuse to accept the plainest of scripture written when you want to, discussing scripture with you is pointless. You simply cannot, nor do not understand Pauls core message, and that is why you refuse to accept so many of his plainest of statements.
And when you are asked questions you go all around the houses trying desperately to avoid answering them

stuart lawrence · Jul 6, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Dear 1st Century Lady:

Well, I am commanded by God to pray, do good, and to love my enemies.
So I do not hate Stuart, but I love him and desire him to see what I see.
I believe in hating the sin and loving the sinner.
But that does not mean I am in acceptance of wrong doctrines or sin.

You have to understand the reasons why we are not chummy with each other. Stuart no doubt hates my belief because he thinks I am telling others to do things that I myself don't do (When that is not the case). Actually, I am telling people to obey God's commands in the New Testament as a part of the goal in the process of Sanctification. Nowhere am I saying for them to obey all of the NT commands so as to be saved; And nor am I saying they can obey all of the NT commands overnight. It takes time to do the study and to place these command in your heart.

Now, I hate Stuart's belief (and I do not hate Stuart as a person) because while he may make claims that a believer will live holy, I think he is also justifying a sin and still be saved type doctrine because he has admitted to me before that the keeping of the moral law does not relate to our salvation in any way. He also said before that he sins and is not perfect and that God is faithful to him when he does sin (Whatever that means). However, I see it as if you tell a person that they are saved by having a belief on Jesus and it is not in anything they do, I do not see how that gospel message leads a believer to living holy as he suggests. A person cannot sin and yet also be holy. I see such a belief leading it's listeners to live in sin with the thinking they are saved. For if a a law was passed tomorrow that said that there is no speed limit on the highway, then more people are going to do the wrong thing and speed and get into car accidents. This all sounds like Eternal Security. If such is the case, then there are testimonies of people who have came out of Eternal Security who felt trapped or enslaved to their sin. Then there are testimonies of others who I believe were destroyed because of their belief in OSAS.

Just check out these testimonies below.

Ex OSAS Audio Testimonies:
Testimonies of former eternal security believers

Suicide & OSAS:
A tragic story of an OSAS believer.

A Pastor's Testimony on OSAS:
A testimony about OSAS by a Pastor's wife.

Hooked on Sin & OSAS:
Out Of Darkness | NO Eternal Security | Christian Testimony

Mass Murder, Suicide, & OSAS:
George Sodini

Now, Stuart may or may not believe in Eternal Security, but he definitely holds to the belief that "Sin does not separate a believer from God" by what he has said here on the forums. However, this belief is no different than Eternal Security because both beliefs seek to justify sin (Regardless of whether or not they say to you or others that a believer is marked by living a more holy life). That is the deception. They may tell you the Westboro Baptist church is not saved or the church that is into sexual immorality is not saved, but If you pay close attention to their words, they also say they can sin and be saved in their state of sin, too. What sins? To what extent? We do not know. That is what this thread is all about. Eternal Security preaches a two fold message.

Anyways, I hope this helps.
May God bless you.
And please be well.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.

...

Why are you telling people to obey Gods commands?
They know the law he wants them to obey, those laws are in their minds. And in their hearts they want to obey them, for those laws have been placed in their hearts.
What people need to hear is how sin shall not be their master. However, you do not understand that message, so you keep telling people who in their hearts want to obey if they slip up they are in danger of the fires of hell.
Weak, futile preaching to true believers. But alas, it is all you know isn't it

Yep, a Christian is not declared righteous before God by observing the moral law.
Once again, you do not understand that message. I will happily repeat, you do not understand Pauls core message of grace:
Do we then nullify the law by this faith( a righteousness of faith in Christ not observing the law) not at all, rather we uphold the law
Rom3:31

Rom ch7 is as plain as day to those who have eyes that can see. When Paul believed observing the TC was his righteousness before God as a pharisee, all manner of concupiscence was aroused in him, he became a worse sinner.
I'm sorry Jason, but it's like someone who understands algebra discussing maths with someone trying to learn their twelve times table.
You don't understand the true message written by the person who wrote half the books of the NT

stuart lawrence · Jul 6, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
You said stuart "has admitted to me before that the keeping of the moral law does not relate to our salvation in any way."

The moral law is holy, and the Jews had it also. But their flesh was still roaring like a lion. Nothing could tame the beast until Jesus gave us His own Spirit to calm the savage flesh. That is the same as what stuart and I have discussed, so I know what he believes. It is not the law that can save us, because being told not to do something, creates a craving for the forbidden fruit. That is what Romans 7 is about. It called that law the law of sin and death. But Romans 8 is saying 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

So when you say we are still under the law of sin and death, when Paul just said we are free from it, stuart balks, because he believes it is ONLY the law of the Spirit of life in Christ that we are really under, and saves us. Not both, as you have said. The moral law just says to not murder. But the law of the Spirit of life in Christ prevents us from even hating.

You made good points about the Christian not being under the law, great to see.
Yes, I agree, the whole message needs to be preached

stuart lawrence · Jul 6, 2017

Many simply have a message of a superfluous understanding of the letter, devoid of the love, mercy and compassion if God.
The Christian has been born again of the Holy Spirit, they have his laws in their hearts and minds. They love God and He loves them. And God us faithful, even in our weaknesses because he loves us. We are in a loving, secure relationship with him.
Yet some can see no further than the partial letter. In reality they do not believe God loves us that much. For they believe as soon as you slip up God is threatening you with the fires of hell.
Ridiculous absurd, potty beliefs.
But as I have said many times, such a belief is most exemplified in the two denominations furthest apart doctrinally. Strange but true

1stcenturylady · Jul 6, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
Many simply have a message of a superfluous understanding of the letter, devoid of the love, mercy and compassion if God.
The Christian has been born again of the Holy Spirit, they have his laws in their hearts and minds. They love God and He loves them. And God us faithful, even in our weaknesses because he loves us. We are in a loving, secure relationship with him.
Yet some can see no further than the partial letter. In reality they do not believe God loves us that much. For they believe as soon as you slip up God is threatening you with the fires of hell.
Ridiculous absurd, potty beliefs.
But as I have said many times, such a belief is most exemplified in the two denominations furthest apart doctrinally. Strange but true

Which two denominations are the furthest apart doctrinally? Calvinism and Arminianism?

stuart lawrence · Jul 6, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
Which two denominations are the furthest apart doctrinally? Calvinism and Arminianism?

I'm referring to Pentecostals and Catholics, considered to be the two mainline denominations, furthest apart doctrinally

1stcenturylady · Jul 6, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
I'm referring to Pentecostals and Catholics, considered to be the two mainline denominations, furthest apart doctrinally

To my understanding those two are both Arminian as far as sin goes. And many Catholics are Spirit-filled. But the Catholic "holy traditions" separates them from all other denominations, not just Pentecostals. I don't know which two I would choose to be the furthest apart. Personally, I want EVERYTHING God has to offer, so full-gospel is a MUST for me. While others find the gifts anathema.

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