(Liberal Christians) What do you believe about hell/hades?

godenver1

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hi all,

I've noticed an increase in theological discussion on this board the past few days, so I wanted to ask a question of you. Also, I've seen this question elsewhere but not posed here (as far as I could tell). The title asks the question.

P.S., I'm mainly interested in the varying liberal beliefs, not fundamentalist.
 

Haipule

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hi all,

I've noticed an increase in theological discussion on this board the past few days, so I wanted to ask a question of you. Also, I've seen this question elsewhere but not posed here (as far as I could tell). The title asks the question.

P.S., I'm mainly interested in the varying liberal beliefs, not fundamentalist.
I do not "believe" in hell/hades but, I will tell you what I KNOW!

The Greek word translated as "hell" is: gehenna and refers to a burning trash heap dump, outside and south of Jerusalem--IN THE FIRST CENTURY! And actually, even before!

The Hebrew word Sheol means: pit as in, your here and now life is in the pits!

gehenna refers to a here, and now potential when your self-directed life completely sucks!

So go ahead, use your grandest freewill choices to compete with God! The Alpha and the Omega! The Beginning and the End! Go ahead, and PROVE to God how smart you are! YOU WILL LOSE!

Does everyone think that God is just waiting to see what they will do? And then say. "YES, NO"?

HE knows that we are moronic? He figured that out a long time ago! That is why He did something about it!

Because, "death reigned from Adam until Moses!"

Jesus is the ransom payment, not for your SINS! But, that you may have life in His fame!

Do you know that Jesus was the sacrifice that covered! That covered, not SIN(what ever that means!): but mans waywardness(hamartia) that Adam put in motion through parabasis--motion against a set point or standard?

Do you understand that by that death/blood you are rightified--not JUSTIFIED! Do you know what Paul said? He said that Jesus was raised the third day because of YOU? That by the death of Jesus, the ransom for your freedom from death was paid in full! And by YOUR rightification--He was raised the third day! Because He no longer had a reason TO BE DEAD! I didn't say that, Paul did in the Greek!

On the other hand, ouranos--heaven can only be reached, right here, right now--when your life right here, right now is in followship status? And that He, Jesus, is the only way, the only truth, and the only life! Follow Him!

The after life is Scripturally referred to as "the Paradise of God" vs. "the Lake of Fire"! Sheep vs. Goats! Right now, your choice is heaven and hell: life and death! As always from the beginning! Choose life that you may live! Goats SUCK!
 
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ViaCrucis

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hi all,

I've noticed an increase in theological discussion on this board the past few days, so I wanted to ask a question of you. Also, I've seen this question elsewhere but not posed here (as far as I could tell). The title asks the question.

P.S., I'm mainly interested in the varying liberal beliefs, not fundamentalist.

My attempt at addressing this subject has been to try and work through the historic tradition and teaching of the Church. While I'm what you could call a "liberal Christian", that is, I am a social/political liberal; I try to be traditional in my theology and practice. Fortunately I find the two go hand-in-hand quite easily (in fact it is my desire to be traditional and orthodox in my theology that has been the single largest contributor to my political and social liberalism).

Fundamentally "hell" has never been defined by the Church. There have been lots of views, and they have been very diverse, but at no point has there ever been anything resembling a definitive position on "This is Hell, and this is what we believe about it." There have been some who believe Hell is a literal chasm burning with literal fire where wicked people are literally tormented for all eternity; but that's hardly ever been the consensus historically. For many Hell is a temporary place of purgation, St. Gregory of Nyssa taught that the fires of Hell are like the refiner's fire which burns away the impurities and purifies, thus in Gregory's opinion Hell was more of a kind of purgatory through which even the most stubborn and most wicked would eventually be able to enter the glories of the future life.

So here are my own views, which have been influenced by a number of voices throughout the history of the Church, both ancient and recent.

St. Isaac the Syrian (7th century bishop of Nineveh) speaks of the fires of Hell as the fires of God's love thusly:

"Those who are tormented in hell are tormented by the invasion of love. What is there more bitter and violent than the pains of love? Those who feel they have sinned against love bear in themselves a damnation much heavier than the most dreaded punishments. The suffering with which sinning against love afflicts the heart is more keenly felt than any other torment. It is absurd to assume that the sinners in hell are deprived of God’s love. Love is offered impartially. But by its very power it acts in two ways. It torments sinners, as happens here on earth when we are tormented by the presence of a friend to whom we have been unfaithful. And it gives joy to those who have been faithful. That is what the torment of hell is in my opinion: remorse. But love inebriates the souls of the sons and daughters of heaven by its delectability."

That is to say, "Heaven" and "Hell" are the same "place", God loves all unconditionally, and it is this love which makes Heaven heavenly for the righteous, and it is this same love which makes Hell hellish for the wicked; the difference, ultimately, is our response to God's love.

An entire thread could easily be made to discuss C.S. Lewis' work, The Great Divorce; I haven't read much of Lewis, but from those who have I often hear that this is regarded as perhaps one of his best works--I have read it, and highly recommend it. It's hard to describe, because it's not like, say, Mere Christianity in which Lewis just explains things to the reader straight forward, it's also not like the Narnia books which are veils of fiction through which Lewis articulates his understanding of the Gospel narrative. Though it is perhaps closer to the latter, it is almost like a modern apocalypse, in which a fictional Lewis in a first person perspective describes ascent from Hell to the outskirts of Heaven, though where the ancient apocalypses usually had an angel giving a tour of mysteries, in this case it's a magic bus and one of Lewis' personal heroes, the Scottish theologian George MacDonald. Here are some juicy quotes that I think contribute here,

"'Then those people are right who say that Heaven and Hell are only states of mind?' 'Hush,' he said sternly. 'Do not blaspheme. Hell is a state of mind — ye never said a truer word. And every state of mind, left to itself, every shutting up of the creature within the dungeon of its own mind — is, in the end, Hell. But Heaven is not a state of mind. Heaven is reality itself. All that is fully real is Heavenly. For all that can be shaken will be shaken and only the unshakeable remains.'"

"The whole difficulty of understanding Hell is that the thing to be understood is so nearly Nothing. But ye'll have had experiences . . . it begins with a grumbling mood, and yourself still distinct from it: perhaps criticising it. And yourself, in a dark hour, may will that mood, embrace it. Ye can repent and come out of it again. But there may come a day when you can do that no longer. Then there will be no you left to criticise the mood, nor even to enjoy it, but just the grumble itself going on forever like a machine."

I may come back to this at a later time, but I'm realizing the time and sleep is a good thing.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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xpower

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I think what some people call hell, Is a kind of temporary purgatory. A place for the most evil to be cleansed and shown how to love and what God's love is like.

I believe everyone will come to God eventually, ether the the easy way(the way of the light burden) or the hard why.
 
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Halbhh

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(I'm neither 'liberal' nor 'conservative' nor 'moderate', none of these, only "Christian" -- a follower of Him)

Hades appears to be a place of punishment for deeds in life -- Jesus told us in the account of Lazarus and the rich man that the rich man goes right after death into hades where he is in torment, yet can communicate to those not in torment, but in bliss.

All this happening before that final day of judgement.

We learn in Revelations that after the day of judgement, Hades will be cast into the 'lake of fire', and thus destroyed.

Humans souls can gain eternal life *if* it is given to them:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Without belief in Christ -- the one Who commanded that we "love one another" -- disbelieving in Him, a person will "perish". For human souls that is the "second death". They are "destroyed".
 
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hedrick

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I agree with ViaCrucis on the difficulty in forming a single picture. Further complicating matters, during Jesus' time many Jews thought there was some level of reward and punishment immediately after death, and then a final judgement. The rich man in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man is probably in that state, not hell. (In the NT "Hades" is the intermediate state; Gehenna -- typically translated Hell -- the final one.)

Many of the NT images look to me like final destruction, particularly when you look at the OT origins of the images. So I've tended to favor that over eternal torment. But I don't think it's unambiguous. Paul often looks like he's teaching universalism, but there are some passages that don't look that way. On balance I think annihilation is the most likely.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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I agree that a system of rewards is biblical but perhaps not in the same fashion as Hendrick has outlined.
Most Christians these days have an unclear view of the reward system. Many use the doctrine of pergatory to explain away what is easily rightly divided in the Word in recognition of the difference between the millenium and eternity. Like the prophets of old who couldn't see the church age in the valley when viewing eternity, so too with these 2 trains of thoughts, they can't see the valley of the millenium when viewing eternity. The prophets of old had an excuse.
1 Peter 1:12
It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in regard to the things that have now been announced to you through those who brought you good news by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look!

AND this is definately Not confined to any specific denominations even tho they don't term it as pergatory.

Neither of these schools recognize the reward of the kingdom; even moreso, they do not see the suffering of the loss of the kingdom reward. Both consider all the negative points in verses refering to the rewards as referring to perdition.

Otoh school A , believing in eternal salvation regards all the negative points of reward scripture as applying to the perdition of false believers; while school B, believing that a saved person will perish if he falls, regards these points as applying to the perdition of believers who have fallen.

But the complete revelation of the Bible shows that these negative points refer to the suffering of the loss of the kingdom reward. God's salvation is eternal; once we obtain it, we will never lose it John 10:28-29. But we may suffer the loss of the kingdom reward, even though we still will be saved 1 Corinthians 3:8, 1 Corinthians 3:14-15.

Hebrews 6 (school A) refers to those who have fallen away yet have repented in baptism, tasted of the heavenly (note John the baptist had the ministry of baptism of repentance) (not to be repeated) while Hebrews 10 (school B) refers to those who never believed but treated His sacrifice as a common thing and insulted the Holy Spirit. STOP your both right! But what your wrong on is the lack of discernment toward rewards~!

Hebrews 12:28
Therefore receiving an unshakable kingdom, let us have grace, through which we may serve God well-pleasingly with piety and fear;


The Hebrew believers had received the kingdom, but they risked losing the reward in the manifestation of the kingdom if they shrank back from the grace of God, from God's new covenant way.

The kingdom in its reality, or the reality of the kingdom, is an exercise and a discipline to us Matthew 5:3, 10, 20; Matthew 7:21 in the church today whereas the kingdom in its manifestation will be a reward and an enjoyment to us Matthew 16:27; Matthew 25:21, 23 in the millennial kingdom in the coming age.

If we take the Spirit's exercise and God's discipline in the reality of the kingdom today, we will receive the Lord's reward and enter into the enjoyment of the coming Sabbath rest Hebrews 4:9 in the manifestation of the kingdom in the coming age; otherwise, we will miss the coming kingdom, we will not be rewarded with the manifestation of the kingdom at the Lord's coming back, we will have no right to enter into the glory of the kingdom to participate in Christ's reign in the millennial kingdom, and we will lose our birthright and therefore will be unable to inherit the earth in the coming age, to be the royal priests serving God and Christ in His manifested glory, and to be Christ's co-kings ruling all the nations with His divine authority Revelation 20:4, 6.

To miss the coming kingdom and to forfeit our birthright does not mean that we will perish. It means that we will lose the reward but not our salvation. We will suffer loss but still will be saved, yet so as through fire 1 Corinthians 3:14-15.

This is the basic concept on which all five warnings in Hebrews are given and with which they are all pervaded. All the negative points of these warnings are related to the suffering of the loss of the reward in the coming kingdom, whereas all the positive points are related to the reward and enjoyment of the kingdom. All seven epistles in Revelation 2 and 3 conclude with this same concept — the reward of the kingdom or the loss of it.

Here's a list of scripture pertaining to rewards:
Matthew 5:20; Matthew 7:21-23; Matthew 16:24-27; Matthew 19:23-30; Matthew 24:46-51; Matthew 25:11-13, 21, 23, Matthew 25:26-30; Luke 12:42-48; Luke 19:17, 19, Luke 19:22-27; Romans 14:10, 12; 1 Corinthians 3:8, 13-15; 1 Corinthians 4:5; 1 Corinthians 9:24-27; 2 Corinthians 5:10; 2 Timothy 4:7-8; Hebrews 2:3; Hebrews 4:1, 9, 11;Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 10:26-31, 35-39; Hebrews 12:16-17, 28-29; and Revelation 2:7, 10-11, 17, 26-27; Revelation 3:4-5, 11-12, 20; Revelation 22:12.
 
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hedrick

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I agree that a system of rewards is biblical but perhaps not in the same fashion as Hendrick has outlined.
I wasn't actually talking about this issue of rewards, since the question was about hell.

My reading of Jesus' teaching is that many of his threats are actually aimed at lazy servants, not people who are going to hell (if there are such people). I will admit that I find it hard to prove that. He certainly does talk in places about varying rewards and also varying punishments.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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I wasn't actually talking about this issue of rewards, since the question was about hell.

My reading of Jesus' teaching is that many of his threats are actually aimed at lazy servants, not people who are going to hell (if there are such people). I will admit that I find it hard to prove that. He certainly does talk in places about varying rewards and also varying punishments.
Yes I was comparing the concepts of pergatory with rewards.
 
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SnowyMacie

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I don't see Hell as much as a punishment for sin so much as the result of what happens when a person completely and totally rejects the love of God. I think the view of Hell as punishment is human reasoning and our human understanding and notion of justice onto God. First off, Hell is not a place, well it's really not a separate place but I'l get to that later, of "punishment" to begin with, but simply the result of a person's complete and total rejection of God. The reason why I don't believe in eternal conscience torment is because that's not how the Bible talks about it.When you take a look at all of scripture, the final destination for Christians isn't Heaven, it's Earth. Revelation, while highly symbolic, never says the Earth is going to be destroyed, but that the Earth will be restored and Heaven and Earth will become one. There, those that are saved in Christ will live and reign with God forever. What about those that were not saved in Christ, where will they go? Nowhere. Hell is being tormented by being in the presence of God while unable (willing or not, I'm a bit unsure as to which is true) accept God's love, thus being in communion and fellowship with him. In other words, the saved and unsaved are in the presence of God; to the righteous, it is comfort, to the wicked, agony.

Whenever Jesus talks about Hell, he uses the word Gehenna, which is the Greek name for the Valley of Hinnom, a valley outside of old Jerusalem that at the time of Christ was the city dump. It was a repulsive place of utter destruction, isolation, and an unquenchable fire (that's how they would dispose of the trash). Jesus used this as a metaphor because there was no concept of Hell in first century Judaism. Whenever Paul talks about Hell, he references Greek mythology in Hades and Tartarus (the closest thing in scripture to our current understanding of Hell), but since he doesn't believe in Greek mythology, he's using it as a metaphor. These metaphors are all talking about destruction, isolation, and despair. It's even described as "weeping and gnashing of teeth". When you look closer at the gospels regarding Hell, the wicked aren't in this self-destructive, isolated torment by demons in this completely separate place, they're cast out into the darkness, just outside seemingly. They cannot stand to be in the presence of God and so they are cast out into darkness, tormented by being unable to accept God's love and be in communion with him.

This ultimate, deep, and complete rejection of God's love and desire to be in communion with him causes humans to stop being image of God, and I believe it will result in them become less and less human to the point they ultimately destroy themselves. As stated constantly throughout scripture, the wages of sin is death. The Lake of Fire is called "the second death." I do not know how long this process will take, the Greek word for eternity is more closely translated to "an indefinite amount of time."

Personally, I hope universal reconciliation, I am not sure if that will the case, not necessarily because God cannot, but because those who are in Hell have such a deep rejection that truly cannot be redeemed, they are beyond hope.
 
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Halbhh

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My attempt at addressing this subject has been to try and work through the historic tradition and teaching of the Church. While I'm what you could call a "liberal Christian", that is, I am a social/political liberal; I try to be traditional in my theology and practice. Fortunately I find the two go hand-in-hand quite easily (in fact it is my desire to be traditional and orthodox in my theology that has been the single largest contributor to my political and social liberalism).

Fundamentally "hell" has never been defined by the Church. There have been lots of views, and they have been very diverse, but at no point has there ever been anything resembling a definitive position on "This is Hell, and this is what we believe about it." There have been some who believe Hell is a literal chasm burning with literal fire where wicked people are literally tormented for all eternity; but that's hardly ever been the consensus historically. For many Hell is a temporary place of purgation, St. Gregory of Nyssa taught that the fires of Hell are like the refiner's fire which burns away the impurities and purifies, thus in Gregory's opinion Hell was more of a kind of purgatory through which even the most stubborn and most wicked would eventually be able to enter the glories of the future life.

So here are my own views, which have been influenced by a number of voices throughout the history of the Church, both ancient and recent.

St. Isaac the Syrian (7th century bishop of Nineveh) speaks of the fires of Hell as the fires of God's love thusly:

"Those who are tormented in hell are tormented by the invasion of love. What is there more bitter and violent than the pains of love? Those who feel they have sinned against love bear in themselves a damnation much heavier than the most dreaded punishments. The suffering with which sinning against love afflicts the heart is more keenly felt than any other torment. It is absurd to assume that the sinners in hell are deprived of God’s love. Love is offered impartially. But by its very power it acts in two ways. It torments sinners, as happens here on earth when we are tormented by the presence of a friend to whom we have been unfaithful. And it gives joy to those who have been faithful. That is what the torment of hell is in my opinion: remorse. But love inebriates the souls of the sons and daughters of heaven by its delectability."

That is to say, "Heaven" and "Hell" are the same "place", God loves all unconditionally, and it is this love which makes Heaven heavenly for the righteous, and it is this same love which makes Hell hellish for the wicked; the difference, ultimately, is our response to God's love.

An entire thread could easily be made to discuss C.S. Lewis' work, The Great Divorce; I haven't read much of Lewis, but from those who have I often hear that this is regarded as perhaps one of his best works--I have read it, and highly recommend it. It's hard to describe, because it's not like, say, Mere Christianity in which Lewis just explains things to the reader straight forward, it's also not like the Narnia books which are veils of fiction through which Lewis articulates his understanding of the Gospel narrative. Though it is perhaps closer to the latter, it is almost like a modern apocalypse, in which a fictional Lewis in a first person perspective describes ascent from Hell to the outskirts of Heaven, though where the ancient apocalypses usually had an angel giving a tour of mysteries, in this case it's a magic bus and one of Lewis' personal heroes, the Scottish theologian George MacDonald. Here are some juicy quotes that I think contribute here,

"'Then those people are right who say that Heaven and Hell are only states of mind?' 'Hush,' he said sternly. 'Do not blaspheme. Hell is a state of mind — ye never said a truer word. And every state of mind, left to itself, every shutting up of the creature within the dungeon of its own mind — is, in the end, Hell. But Heaven is not a state of mind. Heaven is reality itself. All that is fully real is Heavenly. For all that can be shaken will be shaken and only the unshakeable remains.'"

"The whole difficulty of understanding Hell is that the thing to be understood is so nearly Nothing. But ye'll have had experiences . . . it begins with a grumbling mood, and yourself still distinct from it: perhaps criticising it. And yourself, in a dark hour, may will that mood, embrace it. Ye can repent and come out of it again. But there may come a day when you can do that no longer. Then there will be no you left to criticise the mood, nor even to enjoy it, but just the grumble itself going on forever like a machine."

I may come back to this at a later time, but I'm realizing the time and sleep is a good thing.

-CryptoLutheran

Here's some one that needs a bit of those selected excerpts I think

Do we lose our memories in heaven?
 
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Basil the Great

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I am uncertain. For many years I did not believe in Hell or at least a Hell that is forever. Recent years have caused me to believe that Hell is maybe more likely than I once thought. However, I still have problems with the teaching of eternal punishment. Yet, I admit that such is a possibility, but I am remain unable to profess that I actually believe such, as is required by the Athanasian Creed. Now since the Athanasian Creed specifies that if we do not believe everything that it teaches we cannot be saved, I guess that those of us Liberal Christians who fail to profess a belief in eternal punishment are doomed to Hell.......
 
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The Athanasian Creed reflects a more Constantinian flavor of Christianity, IMO. At my particular church it is mostly a relic brought out on Trinity Sunday.
 
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SkyWriting

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hi all,

I've noticed an increase in theological discussion on this board the past few days, so I wanted to ask a question of you. Also, I've seen this question elsewhere but not posed here (as far as I could tell). The title asks the question.

P.S., I'm mainly interested in the varying liberal beliefs, not fundamentalist.

Hell is a lonely place where you are tormented by your life, in particular, things
you have said with your tongue. A fire burns in you about what you have done
and your regrets for not trusting God.

22One day the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. And the rich man also died and was buried. 23InHades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abrahamfrom afar, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. For I am in agony in this fire.
 
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Anto9us

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I doubt that Athanasius wrote "his" creed -- and I think it is more of a curse than a creed -- relegated to the Historical Documents section of Book of Common Prayer

although it USED TO BE one of the big three creeds (Nicene, Apostles, and Athanasian)

as for the parable of beggar Lazarus, it reflects a PRE-CROSS picture of Torments and Abraham's Bosom, all in the unseen world, and some believe Christ brought the righteous from Abraham's Bosom to Heaven -- known as THE HARROWING OF HELL

beggar Lazarus is fictional, as far as I know -- not related to the actual Lazarus of Bethany, who was raised from the dead

last we hear of Lazarus of Bethany, the Jews WANTED to kill him -- doesn't say they did

one legend had Lazarus and Joseph of Arimethea spreading the gospel in ancient England
 
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Anto9us

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biblical support for "varying levels of rewards" is seen in the passage that some will be beaten with few stripes, and some with many stripes

whether these are "rewards for lazy servants" or have anything to do with HELL -- that's ambiguous
 
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