The Double Message of Eternal Security.

1stcenturylady · Jul 5, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Are believers right with God if they justify sin and evil by any amount?

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If a believer has the Holy Spirit, if they justify sin and evil aren't they quenching the Spirit's leading? They still have the Spirit, and now He is convicting and drawing them back to a state of repentance. Or do you think He up and leaves as soon as we sin?

Now, I believe He will do just that if we continue to bury the convictions to where we can no longer be bothered by them. To me that is drawing back all the way to perdition, and God has no pleasure in them anymore. That is how I read Hebrews 10.

1stcenturylady · Jul 5, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
You are very wrong here. You wrote that Jason had made a good post regarding his view the Christian is not under law concerning:. Thou shalt not.

As every previous statement of his insists Paul is not referring to Thou shalt not covet, in rom7:4-6 you must have misunderstood his post. Unless of course he has recently changed his mind

I was applauding his quote of the law of the Spirit.

stuart lawrence · Jul 5, 2017

Jason0047 said:
I have answered this for you many, many times.
Again, while Romans 7:4 says the Old Law is dead while Paul struggled with the moral law of the Old Law in Romans 7:14-24 (the moral law), Paul did not know about the change in the Law yet and he did not know Jesus yet. So he struggled to keep God's moral law under the Old Covenant without Jesus.
In verse 25 is when Paul transitions back to talking from the perspective as a Christian.

Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.
Hebrews 7:6 says we are to SERVE in NEWNESS of Spirit and not in the OLDNESS of the letter.
This is important to understand because things are similar but yet they are different.
The moral law has carried over into the New Testament.
Ephesians 5:5 makes this clear that obedience to the moral law still relates to our salvation.
So Paul's point is not that the moral law was dead in Romans 7:14-24, but that the Law as a whole (the Old Covenant Law is dead) and we are to serve in NEWNESS of Spirit in Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:1 says there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh (sin), but after the Spirit.

We fulfill that righteous aspect or part of the Old Law (i.e. the law of love or the moral law) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

...

On all previous occasions you have Insisted in rom 7:4-6 Paul is NOT referring to: thou shalt not covet in those verses.

Yet now, you refuse to plainly state if he is or isn't. The question relates to those specific verses. NONE other

1stcenturylady · Jul 5, 2017

Dan61861 said:
But, than it isn't unmerited

Receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit is because we repent. But before that, the drawing to Christ to receive this gift is unmerited because that is while we are still in sin. Jason and I seem to see this differently. I see it as the power of God after we receive the Holy Spirit, and Jason sees it as both, unmerited favor and the power of God.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 5, 2017

Dan61861 said:
To clarify, if I tell a lie and repent...God will forgive me. If I tell another lie...I suffer spiritual death. Right?

Sigh. No. God can forgive a person many times.
The point I am getting is that in time a believer will mature and they will overcome their sin.
But at no point will a believer seek to justify sin with the thinking they are saved.
They cannot think they can abide in unrepentant sin and be saved and neither can they think they can sin next week or next month as a part of some uncontrollable sin nature as if it was a guarantee and think they are good with God. It doesn't work like that. We have to believe that by God's power we can overcome sin. Anything less is to think we can sin and still be saved (Thereby turning God's grace into a license for immorality).

...

stuart lawrence · Jul 5, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
I was applauding his quote of the law of the Spirit.

You stated he had written a post concerning the Christian not being under the law of: Thou shalt not.

Don't be silly now, I credit you with great posts lately, dont spoil it

Jason cannot believe the Christian is not under the law of: thou shalt not, as long as he insists Paul is NOT referring to thou shalt not covet in rom 7:4-6

But you know that don't you

Bible Highlighter · Jul 5, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
On all previous occasions you have Insisted in rom 7:4-6 Paul is NOT referring to: thou shalt not covet in those verses.

Yet now, you refuse to plainly state if he is or isn't. The question relates to those specific verses. NONE other

I am not stating anything different.

Yes, Romans 7:4 is the Old Law and yes Romans 7:14-24 is the Old Law (the moral law).
But Paul does not tie both of these two verses together and directly say that the moral law is dead. Remember, we are under a New Covenant with New Commands. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. Many of the moral laws have been repeated in the New Testament with threats of punishment in the after life if one does not comply (Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Ephesians 5:5).

...

stuart lawrence · Jul 5, 2017

Jason0047 said:
I am not stating anything different.

Yes, Romans 7:4 is the Old Law and yes Romans 7:14-24 is the Old Law (the moral law).
But Paul does not tie both of these two verses together and directly say that the moral law is dead. Remember, we are under a New Covenant with New Commands. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. Many of the moral laws have been repeated in the New Testament with threats of punishment in the after life is one does not comply (Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Ephesians 5:5).

...

So now you must deflect. I will take it you do not now know if Paul is referring to : thou shalt not covet in rom 7:4-6.
Still, that's an improvement from where you were

1stcenturylady · Jul 5, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Sigh. No. God can forgive a person many times.
The point I am getting is that in time a believer will mature and they will overcome their sin.
But at no point will a believer seek to justify sin with the thinking they are saved.
They cannot think they can abide in unrepentant sin and be saved and neither can they think they can sin next week or next month as a part of some uncontrollable sin nature as if it was a guarantee and think they are good with God. It doesn't work like that. We have to believe that by God's power we can overcome sin. Anything less is to think we can sin and still be saved (Thereby turning God's grace into a license for immorality).

...

stuart lawrence said:
You stated he had written a post concerning the Christian not being under the law of: Thou shalt not.

Don't be silly now, I credit you with great posts lately, dont spoil it

Jason cannot believe the Christian is not under the law of: thou shalt not, as long as he insists Paul is NOT referring to thou shalt not covet in rom 7:4-6

But you know that don't you

I also applauded that it is only the moral law he believes we are under in a sense, and not the Mosaic law. I KNOW he also believes it is only by the power of God that we do NOT kill. I don't know why he doesn't see it the way we do, but the outcome is the same. And I'll take that if he believes both the Spirit and the law, and not just the law of sin and death.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 5, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
So now you must deflect. I will take it you do not now know if Paul is referring to : thou shalt not covet in rom 7:4-6.
Still, that's an improvement from where you were

Ephesians 5:5.
Deal with it.

....

stuart lawrence · Jul 5, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
I also applauded that it is only the moral law he believes we are under in a sense, and not the Mosaic law. I KNOW he also believes it is only by the power of God that we do NOT kill. I don't know why he doesn't see it the way we do, but the outcome is the same. And I'll take that if he believes both the Spirit and the law, and not just the law of sin and death.

When Paul states the Christian is not under law he includes the moral law/ TC in that statement, as I have previously shown you.
You appeared to agree.
Pink rabbit lol

1stcenturylady · Jul 5, 2017

You guys are giving me a headache. I'm taking a break and watch TV.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 5, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
I also applauded that it is only the moral law he believes we are under in a sense, and not the Mosaic law. I KNOW he also believes it is only by the power of God that we do NOT kill. I don't know why he doesn't see it the way we do, but the outcome is the same. And I'll take that if he believes both the Spirit and the law, and not just the law of sin and death.

I do not think the outcome is the same between me and Stuart. I see his belief as turning God's grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). But we can agree to disagree on that one.

...

Bible Highlighter · Jul 5, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
You guys are giving me a headache. I'm taking a break and watch TV.

Yeah, I am actually really starving right now. I need to eat some food.
I may be back later.

May God bless you all.

...

1stcenturylady · Jul 5, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
When Paul states the Christian is not under law he includes the moral law/ TC in that statement, as I have previously shown you.
You appeared to agree.
Pink rabbit lol

I do. You didn't teach me anything new. I've said it many times that we are not under the Ten Commandments with its sign of the Sabbath. We obey God through the law of the Spirit of life in Christ.

stuart lawrence · Jul 5, 2017

I mean, why would Paul need to die to law he could faultlessly obey as a pharisee in order for sin not to be his master?

Don't make sense does it!

stuart lawrence · Jul 5, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Ephesians 5:5.
Deal with it.

....

Rom6:14, rom3:31

Dealt with. But as you don't understand the message......

Bible Highlighter · Jul 5, 2017

Taken a break for some of this....

1stcenturylady · Jul 5, 2017

Jason0047 said:
I do not think the outcome is the same between me and Stuart. I see his belief as turning God's grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). But we can agree to disagree on that one.

...

But he's NOT immoral. That's the point. He believes in obeying God through the law of the Spirit of life in Christ. What is immoral about that. Paul said it frees us from the law of sin and death. Those laws are the negative Thou shalt not. Don't you know that as soon as someone tell you not to do something you immediately dwell on it? It is the difference between "thou shalt NOT" and "thou shalt LOVE" We are to obey God through the Spirit, not the written law. The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Kenny'sID · Jul 5, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
Oh I know where you are. Someone who ducks answering questions. You cover it up with a lot of bluster. You carry on

And who didn't see that excuse coming.

I think anyone with any sense at all can see I was happy to answer once things are cleared up.

Stuarts posts speak for themselves, he creates confusion then uses that confusion to blame others, and to make excuses because he cannot hold up in debate.

I think I've made my point here.

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