The Double Message of Eternal Security.

1stcenturylady · Jul 5, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. Nowhere in the New Testament is the 4th commandment from the Old Testament repeated as a command for us to obey in the New. In fact, New Testament Scripture speaks against the idea or fact that this command is no longer binding anymore (Colossians 2:16) (Romans 14:5).

As for the "Thou shalt nots":

Well, the "Thou shalt nots" is not exclusive to the Old Testament.

Jesus said to the rich young ruler,

17 "..if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."
(Matthew 19:17-19).

Paul repeats these commands in Galatians 5:19-21, Colossians 3:5-7, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Ephesians 5:3-5. John also repeats these commands in Revelation 21:8.

But Paul confirms the words of Jesus in regards to the "Thou shalt not" moral laws in Romans 13:8-10 by telling us to love our neighbor.

8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." (Romans 13:8-10).

Again, I do not think this is a coincidence. Paul is saying that one's obedience to the moral law taken from the OT is essentially the same thing as loving one's neighbor. But Paul is saying that we obey out of love. That is our focus. It has always been that way. In the OT, it says,

"Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD." (Leviticus 19:18).

And Deuteronomly 6:5 says,
"And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might."

So things have not really changed all that much.
The problem had arisen when the Pharisees started their own man made religion that ignored God's grace and turned God's plan of salvation into a system of works. Yet, they themselves did not keep the weightier matters of the Law like justice, love, mercy, and faith (Matthew 23:23) (Luke 11:42).

Well then I don't see why you and stuart can't come to terms. He doesn't believe in killing anyone either.

Question: What laws in particular is Paul calling "laws of sin and death"?

...

corinth77777 · Jul 5, 2017

I was writing this for facebook today

Part 1 ...

Hey Sister Doe, how are you? Well I'm justified because I believe in the gospel of the atonement and going to heaven when I die.

Steve ask, so what are you going to do If you don't die tommorrow?

[put your answer here]

Well I'm going to file for my divorce tommorrow because my husband doesn't give me enough money. And then quit my job so he will have to pay me more. Then I'm going to run to the social work office and talk to Jackie Mcclelland-Brown so she can give me food stamps. Yeay, I'll think of some lie. Then I'm going to call my sister and tell her I can't watch her kids because she told me I was wrong to get a divorce.

If our answer has anything to do with how we are going to run our own lives....Then we may want to check ourselves to see if we are really of the faith.

Now some who hear the gospel of the atonement may have a life changing experience, but many of us are still running our own lives. If her answer was trust Jesus with all she has then that would be a different story.

My search for understanding begin while reading the Bible when it said, "Jesus came preaching the Gospel of the kingdom"

Well I knew There was one Gospel....so why then did it say Paul preached the gospel of atonement.

That's when I came accross Dallas Willard's book The Divine Conspiracy....I was told to get it by my older brother years ago, but it had those theological words So it was left behind. But I recalled some titles and opened it up.

Only to learn the Gospel of the kingdom. Jesus came preaching the kingdom's availablity now. One needed to believe who He was and trust Him. Now you are brought into the kingdom where our sins are forgiven where we learn to be disciples.

So there one Gospel, "Trust Jesus" and in him you will find everything you need, including forgiveness of sin.

So why doesn't our lives naturally change like a suppose to? because many of us trusting ourselves...we are ruling over our own lives. We have our own kingdom. But God's kingdom is the rule and reign over our lives.

Not finished..tbc

Student of Dallas Willard...by His books and videos...

Kenny'sID · Jul 5, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
Maybe you can help Jason out though.
He believes when Paul speaks of not being under the law/ not having a righteousness of observing the law, this refers to OC law, but not the moral law part of it. ie the TC.
He believes the moral law was carried over into the NC, and this law, along with other commands in the NT is the law the Christian has a righteousness of observing.
His problem is, he isn't sure how many NT commands are part of his righteousness of observing the law, nor which ones they specifically are. He used to think he knew, but now he doesn't. I just wondered if a knowledgeable chap like you could tell him. Save him having to do a study himself.

Did you understand that, or do you need further specific explanation?

Once I get the answers to my questions we can continue the debate.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 5, 2017

Dan61861 said:
So, let me get this correct. What Paul said was the gospel is only part of the gospel.

Paul did not use the exact words that believing on Jesus's death and resurrection is the first half of the gospel message, but that is what is implied by the various verses I have shown to you... yes.

Yes, the gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. But the full and complete gospel message is that Christ died so as to redeem us from all iniquity and that we might be zealous of good works. Not all truths in God's Word are a neat cut and clean explanation that we desire to see. The Trinity is true, and yet the closet verse that expresses this truth is 1 John 5:7. Yet, it still does not describe in the same way we would describe it exactly. The Lord our God is one God who exists as three distinct and separate persons (i.e. God the Father, the Son of God, and the Holy Ghost).

You said:
There is another gospel that is the meat. It completes the Gospel Paul referenced?

It's why Paul said he wished to know nothing among the Corinthians but Jesus and Him crucified in 1 Corinthians 2, because he said in 1 Corinthians 3 that they were yet carnal and could not bear to hear the meat of the Word yet. The meat of the Word is obedience to God's commands.

Remember, Jesus said in John 4:34 that his meat is to do the will of God the Father.

"Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." (John 4:34).

You said:
About grace, give me a chance here I'm learning.
Grace is only grace when we follow through with God's commandments...right?

Yes, 1 John 1:7 says,
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

Compare 1 John 1:6-7 with 1 John 2:3-6.

...

stuart lawrence · Jul 5, 2017

Kenny'sID said:
Once I get the answers to my questions we can continue the debate.

Aw that is to help Jason out, I thought you would want to.

But OK, if you need further explanation.
If a person, anyone quotes Jesus words:

If you love me obey my Commandments.
And they do this in relation to Jesus commands in the gospels. They are putting the verse to you to tell you if you love Jesus you will obey his literal commands in the gospels.
Would you say they are being hypocritical if they themselves do not even try and obey each and every command of Christ themselves in the gospels?

Did you understand that, or do you need further explanation?

Dan61861 · Jul 5, 2017

Wait, if I maintain something I have possession of it. If I don't have possession of eternal life, then I must do something to attain it...right???

Dan61861 · Jul 5, 2017

I truly am trying to wrap my mind around this.

The Gospel is not what Paul layer forward. Can you explain it in layman's terms?

Bible Highlighter · Jul 5, 2017

corinth77777 said:
I was writing this for facebook today

Part 1 ...

Hey Sister Doe, how are you? Well I'm justified because I believe in the gospel of the atonement and going to heaven when I die.

Steve ask, so what are you going to do If you don't die tommorrow?

[put your answer here]

Well I'm going to file for my divorce tommorrow because my husband doesn't give me enough money. And then quit my job so he will have to pay me more. Then I'm going to run to the social work office and talk to Jackie Mcclelland-Brown so she can give me food stamps. Yeay, I'll think of some lie. Then I'm going to call my sister and tell her I can't watch her kids because she told me I was wrong to get a divorce.

If our answer has anything to do with how we are going to run our own lives....Then we may want to check ourselves to see if we are really of the faith.

Now some who hear the gospel of the atonement may have a life changing experience, but many of us are still running our own lives. If her answer was trust Jesus with all she has then that would be a different story.

My search for understanding begin while reading the Bible when it said, "Jesus came preaching the Gospel of the kingdom"

Well I knew There was one Gospel....so why then did it say Paul preached the gospel of atonement.

That's when I came accross Dallas Willard's book The Divine Conspiracy....I was told to get it by my older brother years ago, but it had those theological words So it was left behind. But I recalled some titles and opened it up.

Only to learn the Gospel of the kingdom. Jesus came preaching the kingdom's availablity now. One needed to believe who He was and trust Him. Now you are brought into the kingdom where our sins are forgiven where we learn to be disciples.

So there one Gospel, "Trust Jesus" and in him you will find everything you need, including forgiveness of sin.

So why doesn't our lives naturally change like a suppose to? because many of us trusting ourselves...we are ruling over our own lives. We have our own kingdom. But God's kingdom is the rule and reign over our lives.

Not finished..tbc

Student of Dallas Willard...by His books and videos...

If you are speaking against "Once Saved Always Saved" or if you are speaking against the belief that says, "No sin can separate a believer from God", then in my mind, I am doing backfips of joy with poodles barking in happy applause.

...

Bible Highlighter · Jul 5, 2017

Dan61861 said:
Wait, if I maintain something I have possession of it. If I don't have possession of eternal life, then I must do something to attain it...right???

Jesus is the source of eternal life.
No Jesus and there is no salvation.
If a person abides in Christ who is the source of their eternal life, then good fruit and not bad fruit will be evident in their life (Both in their thinking and in their actions).

...

stuart lawrence · Jul 5, 2017

RayJeena said:
I found a post in another, older, thread, which mentions where a list of 1,050 NT commands can be found:

However, the site linked, Christian Assemblies International (cai.org), is controversial (see issues below)*.

* Former members lift lid on Christian cult of horrors

* CULT OF HORRORS - Four Corners

One would think that the fruit of a works-based religion would be characterized by good things, not scandal. But it appears that the more emphasis there is on good behavior over God's grace, the more bad behavior emerges, as if reverse psychology kicks in somehow. I've seen similar with ISKCON.

Thank you for your post. You are spot on.The more in earnest people are that you are under righteousness of observing the law/ the emphasis is on good behaviour/ not Gods grace, the more bad behaviour emerges.
Pauls core message in a nutshell is:
Sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace
Rom6:14

ToBeLoved · Jul 5, 2017

Jason0047 said:
13 "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins"

(Colossians 1:13-14).

This is talking about "Initial Salvation." But to have "Continued Salvation" one has to walk in the light as Christ is in the light so that the blood of Jesus continually cleanses them of all sin.

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

"If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth." (1 John 1:6).

Same truth is expressed here:

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

And same truth is expressed here:

"He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." (1 John 2:9).

And same truth is expressed here:

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

And same truth is expressed here:

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

For...

"He that committeth sin is of the devil." (1 John 3:8).

For Colossians 3:5-7 also says,

5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them."

For it is written:

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish." (Romans 2:12).

...

I see you are still preaching this theory of yours that involves two salvations ... Jesus come soon!!!!!!

stuart lawrence · Jul 5, 2017

RayJeena said:
I found a post in another, older, thread, which mentions where a list of 1,050 NT commands can be found:

However, the site linked, Christian Assemblies International (cai.org), is controversial (see issues below)*.

* Former members lift lid on Christian cult of horrors

* CULT OF HORRORS - Four Corners

One would think that the fruit of a works-based religion would be characterized by good things, not scandal. But it appears that the more emphasis there is on good behavior over God's grace, the more bad behavior emerges, as if reverse psychology kicks in somehow. I've seen similar with ISKCON.

And yes, Jason would quote the 1050. commands and where to find them. For he has numerous times previously stated you are under a righteousness of observing those commands

Bible Highlighter · Jul 5, 2017

Dan61861 said:
I truly am trying to wrap my mind around this.

The Gospel is not what Paul layer forward. Can you explain it in layman's terms?

Well, I will pray and think about how to answer this question in the most simplest terms I know and I will get back to you, Lord willing. But in the mean time...

The gospel is believing in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ according to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. But the gospel also needs to be obeyed, too.

In Romans 6:3-5 it talks about how baptism (even though baptism was not done for salvation, and it was done as a public declaration that their conscience had been cleared) is a picture or symbol of how true believers are buried with Christ (i.e. going down in the water - completely consumed by water) and how they are to die daily to themselves (1 Corinthians 15:31). We are buried with Christ. This is the typology of the burnt sacrifice. A total consumption of self by the love we have for what Christ has done for us (In being buried with Him). For what comes out of a fire (even after it is put out)? Smoke. Was not God pleased with the smell of burnt sacrifices in the OT? Yes. Is not God pleased with those who are in Christ who are saved? Yes, of course. For the Scriptures say,

"For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved"
(2 Corinthians 2:15).

See, Salvation is about a relationship and in abiding in the One who is the source of eternal life or salvation, who is Jesus Christ (1 John 5:12). But if we want to abide in Christ, we have to deny ourselves and let Christ live in our hearts and lives. For it is written,

"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me." (Luke 9:23).

For we are to pick up our own cross (i.e. having Christ's death in our life) by denying our own life and come after Christ. This is how the death of Christ can be made a reality in our life and how we can be buried in Him.

So the death of Christ = Denying ourselves (i.e. Denying sin and our old life) which begins when we seek to be forgiven of our sins before God (i.e. the Sinner's Prayer).

This is evident by the fact that when the people came to John the Baptist they had confessed of their sins when they were baptized (See Mark 1:4-5).

The death of Christ or denying sin and our old life (not only includes the Sinner's Prayer) but it ALSO leads to us to crucifying the affections and lusts, too. For Galatians 5:24 says,

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts"

Now, as for the Resurrection being applied to our lives: We are to...

For Romans 6:4 says,

"...As Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

So walking in newness of life or obeying the Commands in the New Testament that were given to us by Christ and his followers equals a picture of symbol of Christ's resurrection.

So the resurrection of Christ = Walking in God's good ways.

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." (Galatians 5:22-23).

Therefore...

"If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." (Galatians 5:25).

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:1).

Paul said in 1 Corinthians 3:2 that he gave the Corinthians milk and not meat because they were not able to bear his message yet. This is important to understand because this suggests that a believer is to mature in their faith (Going from being a baby who drinks milk to being an adult who eats meat).

In addition, Paul also makes another parallel of Christ's death and resurrection, as well.

For in Romans 6:5, he says,

For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection.

In Romans Romans 6:17-18, Paul says,

"But God be thanked, that you were the servants of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, you became the servants of righteousness."

Our obedience to the gospel or the doctrine that was delivered to us involves us denying ourselves and sin and becoming a servant of righteousness.

The new birth is a quick process that is given to a believer by the Spirit when they first come to the faith by believing He died for our sins in our place. This leads us to then be buried with Christ (Which is a picture of baptism or being consumed by fire).

Anyways, I will be praying that you will understand where I am coming from.
In any event, May God bless you.
And please be well.

...

Kenny'sID · Jul 5, 2017

corinth77777 said:
So why doesn't our lives naturally change like a suppose to? because many of us trusting ourselves...we are ruling over our own lives. We have our own kingdom. But God's kingdom is the rule and reign over our lives.

Trusting ourselves to do what? Be more specific.

What do you mean "ruling our own lives".

If we don't apply rules to our lives, we end up in a heap of trouble.

So now it's, if we choose not to sin we are ruling our own lives, and there is something wrong with that? God doesn't force us not to sin, we rule over that part of our lives....we make those choices. We make the choice to give God control, to live as he wants us to, but other than that he allows us control of our own lives/the details.

Quit your control of your own life as in your job and watch what happens.

No, we don't have our own kingdom, we take responsibility to do what God has asked of us, run our lives when it comes to the details and we are in God's kingdom.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 5, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
Thank you for your post. You are spot on.The more in earnest people are that you are under righteousness of observing the law/ the emphasis is on good behaviour/ not Gods grace, the more bad behaviour emerges.
Pauls core message in a nutshell is:
Sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace
Rom6:14

You are thanking a person who believes in Universal Salvationism.

...

stuart lawrence · Jul 5, 2017

Jason0047 said:
You are thanking a person who believes in Universal Salvationism.

...

If a person states spiritual truth, I will happily thank them, if that is OK with you( or even if it isn't)

1stcenturylady · Jul 5, 2017

Dan61861 said:
So, let me get this correct. What Paul said was the gospel is only part of the gospel. There is another gospel that is the meat. It completes the Gospel Paul referenced?

About grace, give me a chance here I'm learning.
Grace is only grace when we follow through with God's commandments...right?

Grace is "unmerited favor" to all those God is drawing to himself while they are still sinning. Once they repent Acts 2:38 “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. See we SHALL be given the gift of the Holy Spirit. This baptism of fire (Matthew 3:11), burns up the desire to sin. Sin no longer keeps us a slave to it with our flesh. We are dead to sin (Romans 6:1-2). However, we can still sin if we give into it with our free will. That choice is ours. But Jesus has given us new desires - we love what God loves, and hates what God hates. This free will is why Paul said, "I die daily" (1 Corinthians 15:31). We die to our fleshly desires, and walk in the Spirit by focusing only on Him and His leading, and ferociously studying His word to get it deep in your soul. This is not a command, but this hunger for God's word is given us by the Holy Spirit when He comes in to indwell us and becomes part of our new nature. It is one way to know you actually have Him and have been given this baptism of fire, Romans 8-9 are important to every believer. "So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Repentance from all sin is the first step. That means turning away from the sin and turning toward God.

Kenny'sID · Jul 5, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
But OK, if you need further explanation.

Your getting flaky on me now/not paying attention. I didn't ask for any explanation, I told you you needed to answer the questions, the ones you never answered. That's where I came into the conversation, you were skipping questions, I asked a few and didn't get answers.

In order to have a two sided conversation, both sides need take part equally.

ToBeLoved · Jul 5, 2017

Jason0047 said:
You are thanking a person who believes in Universal Salvationism.

...

Verses your theology which makes up a second salvation that doesn't exist to go with the gospel of works? :doh:

Now why did Jesus need to die for that?

stuart lawrence · Jul 5, 2017

Kenny'sID said:
Your getting flaky on me now/not paying attention. I didn't ask for any explanation, I told you you needed to answer the questions, the ones you never answered. That's where I came into the conversation, you were skipping questions, I asked a few and didn't get answers.

In order to have a two sided conversation, both sides need take part equally.

It seems to me you can't answer any questions put to you. You asked for further explanation, I gave it, you then avoided answering. As you didn't help Jason out either by answering the question he seeks to study.

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