LDS Context!

Rescued One · Jul 4, 2017

2 Nephi 25
23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.
24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.
25 For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.
26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.
27 Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ, and know for what end the law was given. And after the law is fulfilled in Christ, that they need not harden their hearts against him when the law ought to be done away.
28 And now behold, my people, ye are a stiffneckedpeople; wherefore, I have spoken plainly unto you, that ye cannot misunderstand. And the words which I have spoken shall stand as a testimony against you; for they are sufficient to teach any man the right way; for the right way is to believe in Christ and deny him not; for by denying him ye also deny the prophets and the law.
29 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.
30 And, inasmuch as it shall be expedient, ye must keep the performances and ordinances of God until the law shall be fulfilled which was given unto Moses.

Okay.

1. ■
  What does the “more sure word of prophecy” have to do with making our calling and election sure? Read Doctrine and Covenants 131:5. Point out that we can in this life receive the witness of the Holy Spirit that we have satisfied God’s requirements and are entitled to eternal life in his presence (see Supporting Statements C on p. 52 of the student manual).
  Doctrines of the Gospel Teacher Manual Chapter 19: Eternal Life

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
Articles of Faith 1

What are the specific laws and ordinances that must be kept? Hint: The laws and ordinances of the "gospel" (Mormonism) are different from the law of Moses. Neither are they all listed among:

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Articles of Faith 1

Ironhold · Jul 4, 2017

Actually, you've got the nutshell version of it all right there.

If you want the rest, you can always read the Gospel Principles manual at your leisure. Lord knows we've linked you to it enough times.

Rescued One · Jul 5, 2017

“What is meant by ‘after all we can do’? ‘After all we can do’ includes extending our best effort. ‘After all we can do’ includes living His commandments. ‘After all we can do’ includes loving our fellowmen and praying for those who regard us as their adversary. ‘After all we can do’ means clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, visiting the sick and giving ‘succor [to] those who stand in need of [our] succor’ (Mosiah 4:15)-remembering that what we do unto one of the least of God's children, we do unto Him (see Matthew 25:34-40; D&C 42:38). ‘After all we can do’ means leading chaste, clean, pure lives, being scrupulously honest in all our dealings and treating others the way we would want to be treated.
The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p.354

His commandments, per Mormonism, include all the ones that Joseph Smith told his followers!

BigDaddy4 · Jul 5, 2017

Ironhold said:
Actually, you've got the nutshell version of it all right there.

If you want the rest, you can always read the Gospel Principles manual at your leisure. Lord knows we've linked you to it enough times.

So, according to mormonism, after all the "after all we can do's" posted by Phoebe Ann, then one can be saved?

Ironhold · Jul 5, 2017

BigDaddy4 said:
So, according to mormonism, after all the "after all we can do's" posted by Phoebe Ann, then one can be saved?

The theology is simple: God meets you half way.

Do what you can to be the best person you can and live the most Christlike life you can, and God will pick up the slack.

BigDaddy4 · Jul 6, 2017

Ironhold said:
The theology is simple: God meets you half way.

Do what you can to be the best person you can and live the most Christlike life you can, and God will pick up the slack.

How do you know you've done enough to get to the "half way" point for God to meet you? How do you know you are the best person you can be?

fatboys · Jul 6, 2017

BigDaddy4 said:
How do you know you've done enough to get to the "half way" point for God to meet you? How do you know you are the best person you can be?

There isn't a half way mark. Jesus wants us to do our best. He wants us to try. He ants us to committ to him by obedience to his laws the best we can. Can someone commit a serious sin and be deemed doing their best? Are they trying?

Ironhold · Jul 6, 2017

BigDaddy4 said:
How do you know you've done enough to get to the "half way" point for God to meet you? How do you know you are the best person you can be?

We're not the ones who worry about things like that. We trust God and go from there.

BigDaddy4 · Jul 6, 2017

fatboys said:
There isn't a half way mark. Jesus wants us to do our best. He wants us to try. He ants us to committ to him by obedience to his laws the best we can. Can someone commit a serious sin and be deemed doing their best? Are they trying?

Ironhold says God meets us "half way". Not my idea.

BigDaddy4 · Jul 6, 2017

Ironhold said:
We're not the ones who worry about things like that. We trust God and go from there.

What a nice, untrue thing to say though. Your D&C 130 attaches blessings to works based on your "obedience" to the laws they are predicated on. That's not grace, nor is it trusting God, that's works.

There is no Biblical text to support your position "after all we can do" if the "after" of "all you can do" is anything beyond believing in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. It's all God's grace. John 3:16, Eph. 2:8-9, etc.

Ironhold · Jul 6, 2017

BigDaddy4 said:
What a nice, untrue thing to say though. Your D&C 130 attaches blessings to works based on your "obedience" to the laws they are predicated on. That's not grace, nor is it trusting God, that's works.

There is no Biblical text to support your position "after all we can do" if the "after" of "all you can do" is anything beyond believing in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. It's all God's grace. John 3:16, Eph. 2:8-9, etc.

...Except, James 2 makes it clear that if you're not living your life in a Christlike fashion your professions of faith are meaningless.

BigDaddy4 · Jul 6, 2017

Ironhold said:
...Except, James 2 makes it clear that if you're not living your life in a Christlike fashion your professions of faith are meaningless.

Except James 2 applies to ones who have already professed their faith, not as a requirement for one to come to faith in God (i.e., "meeting half way" or "after all you can do").

Remember, the question was how can one be saved?

BigDaddy4 said:
So, according to mormonism, after all the "after all we can do's" posted by Phoebe Ann, then one can be saved?

Ironhold said:
The theology is simple: God meets you half way.

Do what you can to be the best person you can and live the most Christlike life you can, and God will pick up the slack.

Your response is a works based salvation response. The Bible does not support such a position.

Rescued One · Jul 6, 2017

COMPLETE OBEDIENCE BRINGS ETERNAL LIFE.
But to be exalted one must keep the whole law ... to receive the exaltation of the righteous, in other words eternal life, the commandments of the Lord must be kept in all things.
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation: Sermons and Writings of Joseph Fielding Smith, ed. Bruce R. McConkie (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954-1956), vol. 2, p.6

All Ordinances Necessary
The question is frequently asked, "Can we not be saved without going through with all those otfinances? I would answer, No, not the fullness of salvation. Jesus said, There are many mansions in my Father's house, and I will go and prepare a place for you. House here should have been transkared kingdom; and any person who is exalted to the highest mansion has to abide a celestial law, amd the whole law, too.
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 331.

dzheremi · Jul 6, 2017

If it were possible to obey ones way into heaven by following ordinances and laws in themselves, then why would Christ say that He came to fulfill? (Matthew 5:17)

Why would He not say instead that it is necessary to follow the law, without putting forth any idea that it may be fulfilled in Him? Because indeed that's the alternative that Christianity proposes to the Jewish law, from words that He Himself spoke: "I am the way, and the truth, and the light; no one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6) He did not say "I am the way the and the truth and the light; come to the Father by performing certain ordinances in recognition of the law, after you've done all that you can do."

withwonderingawe · Jul 6, 2017

dzheremi said:
If it were possible to obey ones way into heaven by following ordinances and laws in themselves, then why would Christ say that He came to fulfill? (Matthew 5:17)

Why would He not say instead that it is necessary to follow the law, without putting forth any idea that it may be fulfilled in Him? Because indeed that's the alternative that Christianity proposes to the Jewish law, from words that He Himself spoke: "I am the way, and the truth, and the light; no one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6) He did not say "I am the way the and the truth and the light; come to the Father by performing certain ordinances in recognition of the law, after you've done all that you can do."

Because there is the Old Covenant and the New and Everlasting Covenant. When Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law he laid down a new one.

Matt 5
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment"

He set the bar higher. .

In the Old Law they had to go back every year and make the same sacrifices, which didn't save them at all but pointed the the last great and infinite sacrifice of Jesus. Under the New Covenant it is everlasting. He asked that we be baptized once, once we are buried in his likeness of his death and raise with a newness of life.

dzheremi · Jul 6, 2017

withwonderingawe said:
Because there is the Old Covenant and the New and Everlasting Covenant. When Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law he laid down a new one.

Matt 5
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment"

He set the bar higher. .

In the Old Law they had to go back every year and make the same sacrifices, which didn't save them at all but pointed the the last great and infinite sacrifice of Jesus. Under the New Covenant it is everlasting. He asked that we be baptized once, once we are buried in his likeness of his death and raise with a newness of life.

I am aware of the differences between the new and the old covenant, and that Jesus Christ "set the bar higher". My question was why Jesus did not say anything like what the Mormon prophets say about this "following the laws and ordinances" and "after all that you can do" business. Christ never said "Get a temple recommend and then go to the Mormon temple for your sealings and have eternal families, and then you'll get the highest degree of glory" or whatever. He said "come through me." He said "enter through the narrow gate." He said many similar things, but nothing about this complicated man-first soteriological system with its different levels of exaltation or whatever.

And lest we forget or make it as though we are diametrically opposed on this matter, it behooves Christians to remember that indeed God's strength is made perfect in weakness (2 Corinthians 12:9), so it's not wrong to say that man is to cooperate with God (recall as well the workers of the vineyard). The difference is that it seems the Mormon soteriology forgets the first part of that quotation, which is "My grace is sufficient for you." (And again, not "my grace is sufficient for you, after you've done everything you can do.")

fatboys · Jul 7, 2017

dzheremi said:
I am aware of the differences between the new and the old covenant, and that Jesus Christ "set the bar higher". My question was why Jesus did not say anything like what the Mormon prophets say about this "following the laws and ordinances" and "after all that you can do" business. Christ never said "Get a temple recommend and then go to the Mormon temple for your sealings and have eternal families, and then you'll get the highest degree of glory" or whatever. He said "come through me." He said "enter through the narrow gate." He said many similar things, but nothing about this complicated man-first soteriological system with its different levels of exaltation or whatever.

And lest we forget or make it as though we are diametrically opposed on this matter, it behooves Christians to remember that indeed God's strength is made perfect in weakness (2 Corinthians 12:9), so it's not wrong to say that man is to cooperate with God (recall as well the workers of the vineyard). The difference is that it seems the Mormon soteriology forgets the first part of that quotation, which is "My grace is sufficient for you." (And again, not "my grace is sufficient for you, after you've done everything you can do.")

It's in the entire package. His grace just doesn't cover the atonement. Through his grace the world was created. Through his power and grace we have a spirit inside a mortal body. Through his grace we are given the right to obey his laws and receive his blessings if we are obedient to those laws. Through his grace he has given us freedom to choose and own the direction our life path takes us. Through his grace we have been given the right to either choose good or evil. His grace covers more that just our redemption.
As to why the bible is not as clear about the purpose of the atonement as the Book of Mormon is. How many churches are there that claim to be Christian? Why are there so many? What make up the differences between them and if a person was looking for a church to follow how would he pick one over another? The church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints stands out in quite a visible contrast to mainstream Christianity and those searching for a church that looks like the church Christ set up can easily see the difference.

BigDaddy4 · Jul 7, 2017

fatboys said:
Through his grace we are given the right to obey his laws and receive his blessings if we are obedient to those laws.

Contrdictory statement. Grace is not grace if there are conditions attached to it (if one is obediant). More works-based theology.

dzheremi · Jul 7, 2017

fatboys said:
It's in the entire package. His grace just doesn't cover the atonement. Through his grace the world was created. Through his power and grace we have a spirit inside a mortal body. Through his grace we are given the right to obey his laws and receive his blessings if we are obedient to those laws. Through his grace he has given us freedom to choose and own the direction our life path takes us. Through his grace we have been given the right to either choose good or evil. His grace covers more that just our redemption.

We're not talking about all the things that are filled by God's grace. My question was why does Mormonism teach something distinct from "My grace is sufficient for you, for my strength is made perfect in weakness" (i.e., what is actually taught in the Bible)? You instead seem to teach grace as being something that kind of 'kicks in' after we've done all that we can do.

As to why the bible is not as clear about the purpose of the atonement as the Book of Mormon is.

Who claimed this? Not me. I think the Bible is perfectly clear about the atonement.

And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.” Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." (Matthew 26:26-28)

How many churches are there that claim to be Christian? Why are there so many?

This would've been a good question to ask Joseph Smith, since he started yet another, and all of those who came after him to start their own derivatives of the one he started.

What make up the differences between them and if a person was looking for a church to follow how would he pick one over another? The church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints stands out in quite a visible contrast to mainstream Christianity and those searching for a church that looks like the church Christ set up can easily see the difference.

Yes, I agree it is quite visible, in that it is quite easy to see how wrong it is if you have even a modicum of understanding of the Bible, Patristics, or the history of Christianity and the Christian Church.

fatboys · Jul 7, 2017

BigDaddy4 said:
Contrdictory statement. Grace is not grace if there are conditions attached to it (if one is obediant). More works-based theology.

You really don't understand what grace is. If it were. It for grace we wouldn't get the opportunity to work out anything. We would have the opportunity to progress or be obedient. I do understand why you want to be believe that you did not want to take zany responsibility for your salvation except to say you have faith. That is not consistent to what the scriptures say.

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