The 4 Beasts = 4 kings = 4 Kingdoms; Babylon Is fallen, Is Fallen

GUANO said:

The only way you can do that is to associate the prophecy of Daniel 9 to the "antichrist" when really the whole chapter is about Jesus Christ.

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Daniel 9 is about Israel and its REPENTANCE...Jesus is only a sliver of this chapter.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off (Dies/Sacrificed), but not for himself: and the people(Romans) of the prince that shall come(Anti-Christ 2000 years later) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he (Anti-Christ) shall confirm the covenant (Agreement) with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The Messiah is Sacrificed after 69 Weeks, he has nothing to do with any of this prophecy after that.

Douggg said:

No, no, no, no..... It is not that the the beast had crowns on the heads and horns in Revelation 7, but it wasn't stated. No.

John saw 3 different visions. One in Chapter 13, a different one in Chapter 12, and a different one in Chapter 17.

The status of the crown, no crowns, on the heads being different in Chapters 13, 12, 17 - is where your heads are kingdoms falls apart.... because there is no explanation using your interpretastion of the heads.

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The Beast are the same even in different visions. We understand the horns and Heads have crowns.

GUANO said:

The only way you can do that is to associate the prophecy of Daniel 9 to the "antichrist" when really the whole chapter is about Jesus Christ.

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Guano, are you aware that Moses as the Children of Israel were about to cross over the Jordan to possess the promised land, was the first to confirm the covenant for 7 years?

Yes, it is in the text of Deuteronomy 31:9-13. Moses gave a big speech to the nation of Israel gathered together as he gave it. Moses was making a point that they were going into the promised land that God had given them, when they agreed that He would be their God, and He their people.

And to make sure that future generations would never forget, Moses made a law that the leadership of all future generations do the same, on a 7 year cycle, forever, as long as they are in the land.

The 7 years is right in the text.

One of the requirement though is - that the big speech to be given to the nation, must be from the place of God's choosing. The Jews currently take that to be the temple mount. Of course the muslims, having gone already through multiple wars over the Jews occupying the land of Israel, are never going to allow such a speech from the temple mount, by a Jewish leader, especially if he is referring back to Moses, that God gave the land of Israel to the children of Israel, forever.

It will not be until after Gog/Magog, that the big speech will take place, and the Muslim presence gone.

So the confirming of the covenant for 7 years is in the text of the bible - what it is. It is not something that Jesus did. But it will be something the person who becomes the Antichrist will do.

Revealing Times said:

Daniel 9 is about Israel and its REPENTANCE...Jesus is only a sliver of this chapter.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off (Dies/Sacrificed), but not for himself: and the people(Romans) of the prince that shall come(Anti-Christ 2000 years later) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he (Anti-Christ) shall confirm the covenant (Agreement) with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The Messiah is Sacrificed after 69 Weeks, he has nothing to do with any of this prophecy after that.

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Verse 26 and 27 are all things that happen on the 69th week. The 'he' in verse 27 is the Messiah. This is obvious by the punctuation (the colon) separating the messiah from the 'prince' (Titus). You're model requires a lot of assumptions such as a gap of over 2000 years between the 69th and 70th weeks as well as a 'new temple' in Jerusalem.

Are you saying that today, Jews are still under the OT Law? And that they should be performing daily sacrifices and that those sacrifices would not be 'desolate' (empty/vain)? That would be a requirement in the model as well...

GUANO said:

Verse 26 and 27 are all things that happen on the 69th week. The 'he' in verse 27 is the Messiah. This is obvious by the punctuation (the colon) separating the messiah from the 'prince' (Titus). You're model requires a lot of assumptions such as a gap of over 2000 years between the 69th and 70th weeks as well as a 'new temple' in Jerusalem.

Are you saying that today, Jews are still under the OT Law? And that they should be performing daily sacrifices and that those sacrifices would not be 'desolate' (empty/vain)? That would be a requirement in the model as well...

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Guano, in your interpretation what event ended the 70 weeks of years?

Douggg said:

Guano, are you aware that Moses as the Children of Israel were about to cross over the Jordan to possess the promised land, was the first to confirm the covenant for 7 years?

Yes, it is in the text of Deuteronomy 31:9-13. Moses gave a big speech to the nation of Israel gathered together as he gave it. Moses was making a point that they were going into the promised land that God had given them, when they agreed that He would be their God, and He their people.

And to make sure that future generations would never forget, Moses made a law that the leadership of all future generations do the same, on a 7 year cycle, forever, as long as they are in the land.

The 7 years is right in the text.

One of the requirement though is - that the big speech to be given to the nation, must be from the place of God's choosing. The Jews currently take that to be the temple mount. Of course the muslims, having gone already through multiple wars over the Jews occupying the land of Israel, are never going to allow such a speech from the temple mount, by a Jewish leader, especially if he is referring back to Moses.

It will not be until after Gog/Magog, that the big speech will take place, and the Muslim presence gone.

So the confirming of the covenant for 7 years is in the text of the bible - what it is. It is not something that Jesus did. But it will be something the person who becomes the Antichrist will do.

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Deut 31 does not say that the purpose of the 'summit' was to 'renew' the covenant, nor that the covenant represented any kind of peace treaty with neighboring nations. The state of Israel was destroyed and what exists today is a state that wasn't even founded by Jews and their symbol is the pagan hexagram from the Babylonian kabbalah. Even if they do manage to build a new temple and resume sacrifice, it is not prophesied in scripture. The Jews have their own eschatology and they could even declare a Messiah but that isn't 'antichrist'... 'antichrist' is the spirit that crucified Jesus and dominates the Church... The whole idea that Daniel 9 is about 'the antichrist' is 'antichrist' philosophy in itself because it denies what Jesus came and accomplished. The whole doctrine was invented to combat the Reformation: the first book ever written that gets close to the model you're using was written by a counter-reformation scholar a few hundred years ago who was trying to combat the Protestant viewpoint that the Papacy represented the "man of sin" (antichrist). Even today, Jewish scholars themselves, who deny Christ, claim that the entire chapter is about their Messiah.

Douggg said:

Guano, in your interpretation what event ended the 70 weeks of years?

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The razing of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple by the armies of Titus or possibly the events of Pentecost. Many claim the stoning of Stephen which initiated the outreach to the Gentiles as the event and I accept that as well. I'm just not prone to accept a 2,000 year gap or that anyone other than Christ rendered the sacrifice obsolete/desolate.

Off topic, I read some Roman manuscript that claimed that Titus tried to preserve the Temple but that a spirit came over the mob and that they just destroyed everything and didn't even get much loot out of it. I'll try to find that.

GUANO said:

Deut 31 does not say that the purpose of the 'summit' was to 'renew' the covenant, nor that the covenant represented any kind of peace treaty with neighboring nations.

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No, it doesn't say "renew" the covenant, but what Moses actually did was confirm the covenant. Not a peace treaty either. But confirmation of the Mt. Sinai covenant.

Speaking of renewal... the Jews, btw, believe that the new covenant in Jeremiah 31, we know be to be in Christ, they say really means "renew", renew the existing in their minds, Mt. Sinai covenant. Also they don't make a connection between the confirming of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 for 7 years with their expectation of a renewal of the Mt. Sinai covenant.

The Jews do hold to the requirement that Moses made for the confirmation of the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 years, that the requirement is still valid. But don't make any connection of Moses' requirement and Daniel 9:27. The Jews view Daniel 9, the 70 weeks of years, as fulfilled, resulting in the exile, because they were give a trial period to follow torah correctly - but they failed.

The whole idea that Daniel 9 is about 'the antichrist' is 'antichrist' philosophy in itself because it denies what Jesus came and accomplished.

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No-one at this site is saying all of Daniel 9 is about the Antichrist.

Even today, Jewish scholars themselves, who deny Christ, claim that the entire chapter is about their Messiah.

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Not hardly. The Jews say that Daniel 9 has nothing to do with their messiah. Go to this site, and in the General Judaism forum, start a thread and ask the Jews there. They are experts on their religion. You will see my screen-name in many of the threads as Douggg

General Judaism Forum Forum

Douggg said:

No, it doesn't say "renew" the covenant, but what Moses actually did was confirm the covenant. Not a peace treaty either. But confirmation of the Mt. Sinai covenant.

Speaking of renewal... the Jews, btw, believe that the new covenant in Jeremiah 31, we know be to be in Christ, they say really means "renew", renew the existing in their minds, Mt. Sinai covenant. Also they don't make a connection between the confirming of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 for 7 years with their expectation of a renewal of the Mt. Sinai covenant.

The Jews do hold to the requirement that Moses made for the confirmation of the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 years, that the requirement is still valid. But don't make any connection of Moses' requirement and Daniel 9:27. The Jews view Daniel 9, the 70 weeks of years, as fulfilled, resulting in the exile, because they were give a trial period to follow torah correctly - but they failed.



No-one at this site is saying all of Daniel 9 is about the Antichrist.


Not hardly. The Jews say that Daniel 9 has nothing to do with their messiah. Go to this site, and in the General Judaism forum, start a thread and ask the Jews there. They are experts on their religion. You will see my screen-name in many of the threads as Douggg

General Judaism Forum Forum

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I don't necessarily believe that the Sinai 'covenant' and Christ's are any different in essence other than the ecclesiastical hierarchy—Jesus is the High Priest and God's temple is in man. Jeremiah stated that God never made a covenant with the Jews concerning sacrifice but only that they serve and love God alone. With that being said, I still cannot see a link with Deut's and Daniel's covenant but I can see why people wouldn't want to think of Jesus as "making the sacrifice and oblation cease and for the overspreading of abominations should make it desolate" but that is what Jesus did. The temple veil was ripped in two because the new covenant renders the religious practices obsolete and 'desolate'... "it is done"

GUANO said:

The razing of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple by the armies of Titus or possibly the events of Pentecost.

Off topic, I read some Roman manuscript that claimed that Titus tried to preserve the Temple but that a spirit came over the mob and that they just destroyed everything and didn't even get much loot out of it. I'll try to find that.

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Well, Titus never made, or confirmed, a covenant for 7 years. The culmination of the 70 weeks of years, is not an ambiguous event. It will be the glorious Return of Jesus to this earth, the greatest event in the history of this world or ever.

Douggg said:

Well, Titus never made, or confirmed, a covenant for 7 years. The culmination of the 70 weeks of years, is not an ambiguous event. It will be the glorious Return of Jesus to this earth, the greatest event in the history of this world or ever.

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Right, Titus never did any of that. But the culmination of the 70 weeks is the sacrifice and oblation ceasing, not the return of Christ.

GUANO said:

Verse 26 and 27 are all things that happen on the 69th week. The 'he' in verse 27 is the Messiah. This is obvious by the punctuation (the colon) separating the messiah from the 'prince' (Titus). You're model requires a lot of assumptions such as a gap of over 2000 years between the 69th and 70th weeks as well as a 'new temple' in Jerusalem.

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NO IT IS NOT...........The he in verse 27 is the Anti-Christ. The Messiah is killed after 69 Weeks, not after 70. That just you stretching it out another 7 years. Its not my model, its the prophecy of God.

GUANO said:

Are you saying that today, Jews are still under the OT Law? And that they should be performing daily sacrifices and that those sacrifices would not be 'desolate' (empty/vain)? That would be a requirement in the model as well...

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NO...Today Jews are STILL BLINDED, for the most part and will be until the Gentile Church is Raptured.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The Gentile Church is the Feast of Pentecost or CHURCH AGE, there are Seven Feasts in Leviticus 23, look at the perfect pattern they convey. All Seven is tied in............

Three Spring Feasts

1. Feast of Passover (Jesus fulfilled this, he is our Passover)
2. Feast of Unleavened Bread (Jesus was WITHOUT SIN)
3. Feast of First-fruits (Jesus was the first-fruits of death/He rose)

4. The Feast of Pentecost/Harvest, this is the CHURCH AGE, we are the Body and Jesus is the Sower, we are Harvesting souls for the Master. This FEAST was all alone on the Calendar, you had the Spring Feasts, the HARVEST and then the Fall Feasts. The Feast of Trumpet didn't do much, BUT....It ended the Feast of Pentecost and ANNOUNCED that the Feast of Atonement was NEAR !!

So THE LAST TRUMP of Paul means what? It Means we will be Raptured at the LAST TRUMP, Paul is giving us a clue, when the Church Age ends the Last Trump will Sound just like it did for hundreds or thousands of years before, and Pentecost will be over, the Church Age ENDS....Israel is back on the Clock for the 70th WEEK of Daniel. The Church, like the Jewish Bride, go to spend Seven Days (7 Years) in the Bridal Suite (In Heaven, in the Fathers Mansion). Now Israel must what? Well whats the NEXT FEAST ? The Feast of ATONEMENT........Of course, it all fits !!

Fall Feasts

5. Feast of Trumpets (This announces the Pentecost/Harvest is over and the ATONEMENT is near.

6. Feast of ATONEMENT, Israel must Atone/Repent and accept God/Jesus Christ before the 70th Week ends, that's what Daniel stated in Daniel 9, if we would just heed the Scriptures. The Bible in Zechariah 12:10 and 13:1 says Israel REPENTS/ATONES before Jesus comes back in Zechariah 14. The bible in Malachi 4:5-6 says Elijah is sent to turn Israel back to God before the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord (Gods Wrath that starts when the Seals are broken). So the two-witnesses come back just before the Abomination of Desolation and turn Israel as a Nation back unto God.

7. Feast of Tabernacle, Tabernacle means to DWELL WITH GOD....Boom, that fits perfectly doesn't it? Israel Repents/Atones then Jesus comes back and the TABERNACLE WITH GOD.

The 70th Week is REAL my friend. Israel must accept Jesus Christ just like us, but they have a different time-line than we do. Paul said that ISRAEL are blind IN PART (Meaning you have a few Messianic Jews) until the time of the Gentiles (Church Age) is come in. Israel is the Bride of God, we are the Bride of Christ. (Leah and Rachel).

Revealing Times said:

NO IT IS NOT...........The he in verse 27 is the Anti-Christ.

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The potential hazards of attributing the work of Christ to antichrist.

Matthew 12
22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

jgr said:

The potential hazards of attributing the work of Christ to antichrist.

Matthew 12
22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

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I guess that makes you guilty, because you can't understand the Scriptures.

Revealing Times said:

I guess that makes you guilty, because you can't understand the Scriptures.

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Name us a single recognized apologist in the true Christian Church between the 4th and 18th centuries who believed in a disembodied 70th week.

Revealing Times said:

NO IT IS NOT...........The he in verse 27 is the Anti-Christ. The Messiah is killed after 69 Weeks, not after 70. That just you stretching it out another 7 years. Its not my model, its the prophecy of God.


NO...Today Jews are STILL BLINDED, for the most part and will be until the Gentile Church is Raptured.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The Gentile Church is the Feast of Pentecost or CHURCH AGE, there are Seven Feasts in Leviticus 23, look at the perfect pattern they convey. All Seven is tied in............

Three Spring Feasts

1. Feast of Passover (Jesus fulfilled this, he is our Passover)
2. Feast of Unleavened Bread (Jesus was WITHOUT SIN)
3. Feast of First-fruits (Jesus was the first-fruits of death/He rose)

4. The Feast of Pentecost/Harvest, this is the CHURCH AGE, we are the Body and Jesus is the Sower, we are Harvesting souls for the Master. This FEAST was all alone on the Calendar, you had the Spring Feasts, the HARVEST and then the Fall Feasts. The Feast of Trumpet didn't do much, BUT....It ended the Feast of Pentecost and ANNOUNCED that the Feast of Atonement was NEAR !!

So THE LAST TRUMP of Paul means what? It Means we will be Raptured at the LAST TRUMP, Paul is giving us a clue, when the Church Age ends the Last Trump will Sound just like it did for hundreds or thousands of years before, and Pentecost will be over, the Church Age ENDS....Israel is back on the Clock for the 70th WEEK of Daniel. The Church, like the Jewish Bride, go to spend Seven Days (7 Years) in the Bridal Suite (In Heaven, in the Fathers Mansion). Now Israel must what? Well whats the NEXT FEAST ? The Feast of ATONEMENT........Of course, it all fits !!

Fall Feasts

5. Feast of Trumpets (This announces the Pentecost/Harvest is over and the ATONEMENT is near.

6. Feast of ATONEMENT, Israel must Atone/Repent and accept God/Jesus Christ before the 70th Week ends, that's what Daniel stated in Daniel 9, if we would just heed the Scriptures. The Bible in Zechariah 12:10 and 13:1 says Israel REPENTS/ATONES before Jesus comes back in Zechariah 14. The bible in Malachi 4:5-6 says Elijah is sent to turn Israel back to God before the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord (Gods Wrath that starts when the Seals are broken). So the two-witnesses come back just before the Abomination of Desolation and turn Israel as a Nation back unto God.

7. Feast of Tabernacle, Tabernacle means to DWELL WITH GOD....Boom, that fits perfectly doesn't it? Israel Repents/Atones then Jesus comes back and the TABERNACLE WITH GOD.

The 70th Week is REAL my friend. Israel must accept Jesus Christ just like us, but they have a different time-line than we do. Paul said that ISRAEL are blind IN PART (Meaning you have a few Messianic Jews) until the time of the Gentiles (Church Age) is come in. Israel is the Bride of God, we are the Bride of Christ. (Leah and Rachel).

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I was taught this version of eschatology since I was a child; tribulation, Jacobs trouble, the feasts, etc. Much is valid, much is not. I trust and follow the teachings of the original reformers who gave their lives fighting what they knew was the antichrist and successfully predicting events like the capture of the pope by Napoleon and the French revolution over 200 years in advance using only the books of daniel and revelations. I have seen NOTHING but failed predictions from the the popular present evangelical model. Leaving those like martin Luther and John Calvin rolling over in their graves. The complete disregard of everything taught by the reformers by their own lineage can only be an act of God. If Christians widely understood what was going on they would actively delay Christ's return by comabatting evil, but leaving them in delusion, allowing them to exercise the belief that the government is the ultimate authority that allows the church to even exist, will ensure that Christians actively assist in the overspreading of evil while also retaining their salvation (due to ignorance). But at the end of the day im open to whatever God wants to do.

GUANO said:

I was taught this version of eschatology since I was a child; tribulation, Jacobs trouble, the feasts, etc. Much is valid, much is not. I trust and follow the teachings of the original reformers who gave their lives fighting what they knew was the antichrist and successfully predicting events like the capture of the pope by Napoleon and the French revolution over 200 years in advance using only the books of daniel and revelations. I have seen NOTHING but failed predictions from the the popular present evangelical model. Leaving those like martin Luther and John Calvin rolling over in their graves. The complete disregard of everything taught by the reformers by their own lineage can only be an act of God. If Christians widely understood what was going on they would actively delay Christ's return by comabatting evil, but leaving them in delusion, allowing them to exercise the belief that the government is the ultimate authority that allows the church to even exist, will ensure that Christians actively assist in the overspreading of evil while also retaining their salvation (due to ignorance). But at the end of the day im open to whatever God wants to do.

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An equally dispiriting (if I understood you correctly) perspective is that the abandonment of the prophetic faith of the fathers, and the embrace of modernist futurism, effectively delays the return of Christ for a Church which it is said will be "without spot or wrinkle" (Ephesians 5:27). A Church so bereft of the understanding of the mission of the Messiah, and the nature of His kingdom, is still far too spotted and wrinkled to be worthy to be His bride.

GUANO said:

I was taught this version of eschatology since I was a child; tribulation, Jacobs trouble, the feasts, etc. Much is valid, much is not. I trust and follow the teachings of the original reformers who gave their lives fighting what they knew was the antichrist and successfully predicting events like the capture of the pope by Napoleon and the French revolution over 200 years in advance using only the books of daniel and revelations. I have seen NOTHING but failed predictions from the the popular present evangelical model. Leaving those like martin Luther and John Calvin rolling over in their graves. The complete disregard of everything taught by the reformers by their own lineage can only be an act of God. If Christians widely understood what was going on they would actively delay Christ's return by comabatting evil, but leaving them in delusion, allowing them to exercise the belief that the government is the ultimate authority that allows the church to even exist, will ensure that Christians actively assist in the overspreading of evil while also retaining their salvation (due to ignorance). But at the end of the day im open to whatever God wants to do.

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Well you have been taught by men then, that is not how I roll. I read the bible and follow the Holy Spirits guidance. You are still trying to stretch the Messiah being killed after 69 Weeks to him being killed off after 70 weeks. You can not change the facts, the scriptures are clear.

The Facts are the whole chapter 9 of Daniel clearly says there are SIX THINGS that must happen before the 70 week decree is fulfilled. One is Israel has to REPENT/ATONE. Scriptures can not be wrong. You guys are misreading scriptures.

GUANO said:

The "Beasts" are spirits related to the Watchers and the Nephilim...

Enoch 15:
And now, the giants, who are produced from the spirits and flesh, shall be called evil spirits upon the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling. Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because they are born from men and from the holy Watchers is their beginning and primal origin; they shall be evil spirits on earth, and evil spirits shall they be called. [As for the spirits of heaven, in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born upon the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling.] And the spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and work destruction on the earth, and cause trouble: they take no food, but nevertheless hunger and thirst, and cause offences. And these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded from them.

From the days of the slaughter and destruction and death of the giants, from the souls of whose flesh the spirits, having gone forth, shall destroy without incurring judgement—thus shall they destroy until the day of the consummation, the great judgement in which the age shall be consummated, over the Watchers and the godless, yea, shall be wholly consummated.

Occultists call these spirits Egregores (Watchers) in homage to their dead 'fathers'...

Wikipedia:
Egregore (also egregor) is an occult concept representing a "thoughtform" or "collective group mind", an autonomous psychic entity made up of, and influencing, the thoughts of a group of people. The symbiotic relationship between an egregore and its group has been compared to the more recent, non-occult concepts of the corporation (as a legal entity) and the meme.
Eliphas Lévi, in Le Grand Arcane ("The Great Mystery", 1868) identifies "egregors" with the tradition concerning the "Watchers", the fathers of the nephilim, describing them as "terrible beings" that "crush us without pity because they are unaware of our existence."

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not exactly, the "beasts" are world spirits of various activities - there are good "beasts" (created by God), but there are also evil "beasts" (issuing from the "darkness" - Revelation 13) - they are not (be)souled beings

Blessings

jgr said:

An equally dispiriting (if I understood you correctly) perspective is that the abandonment of the prophetic faith of the fathers, and the embrace of modernist futurism, effectively delays the return of Christ for a Church which it is said will be "without spot or wrinkle" (Ephesians 5:27). A Church so bereft of the understanding of the mission of the Messiah, and the nature of His kingdom, is still far too spotted and wrinkled to be worthy to be His bride.

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I don't necessarily agree. One can be an ignorant fool and still be without 'spot or wrinkle' as far as moral standing/salvation is concerned—that is because we're saved by faith and ignorance can be a blessing more than a curse in many cases. Christ forgave us of error and rendered it null and void. Our own idea of 'without spot or blemish' is not Christs because he see's the heart. Though again, I'm not the judge of that. Christ gives us the light (awareness) that He gives us, and each person's awareness is different, each person has a different conscience based on many different things, usually related to the culture/society. The person who eats whatever is offered and gives thanks to God is no different than the one who eats only vegetables and gives thanks to God... Each person must work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. Some may see the nature of the meat industry and understand the cruelty and choose not to participate in such a system—and they are blessed. Others may accept whatever food is before them, even with the awareness of the cruelty, perhaps understanding that it is better to eat what is provided than let the poor creature die for nothing and rot. It doesn't matter. Literally... Saved by faith, not knowledge or understanding or anything else. The 'church' is not Lutheran, Baptist, or any of that. In my opinion and faith, denominations themselves are sorcery and negate everything that Christ ever said about His Body/Kingdom. But... who's gonna be the judge? Not me, thankfully lol.