A View of Salvation

Acts2:38

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I am trying to see if I can fine-tune a view that can reconcile all the seemingly contradictory Bible passages about salvation.

When one understands the bible in context, there will be no contradiction as I am sure you are already aware by the sounds of it. It just takes study.

I am only interested in what the Bible says. So my view is not set in stone.

This is VERY important. When talking with people it is important to just say, "okay, well what do the scriptures say?" instead of our opinions. I agree totally with this statement. I am only interested in what scripture says.

Jesus said His sheep listen to His voice and follow Him and no one will snatch them out of His hand. If these people do not follow Jesus, it just means that they are not His sheep, and are not the ones who will have eternal life.

"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand."
(John 10:27-28)

Hebrews 6:4-6,

You are missing a VERY important statement here. Let me put the verses down and highlight:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The highlighted in bold parts show you that these people WERE Christians, but fall away.
These people were "partakers" of the Holy Spirit, how can you say they were not Christians?

They "were once enlightened", how can you say they weren't?

They tasted "the heavenly gift", how can you say they didn't?

This verse puts what you are saying in utter contradiction so someone here is putting something out of context. So lets look at what you brought up in John 10:27-28 below here.

Yes, I see that verse, I believe that verse, in its context. Look back to verse 24 and tell me who is Jesus talking to? The conversation in John 10:27-28 starts in Verse 24. Why did Jesus say that in John 10? Context is key.

Jesus had known from the beginning Judas did not believe and would betray Him, yet He still chose him as one of His 12 disciples to fulfill His plan, so Judas had never been saved:

Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.” (John 6:64-65)

Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” (John 6:70)

Judas was indeed saved when Jesus "ordained" him. Jesus is high priest was capable of saving people at his whim because they were under the old law (thief on the cross before Jesus death saved under old law;Jesus didn't die yet).
I see what you might be doing, which is not taking into context the why, who, what, etc., the verses state what they state. Not intending to be rude, but like cherry picking verses you know and seen and were taught, but have not seen the others before and after it. However, because you take the bible as sole authority, this is exactly where I want you to go to and see for yourself. You are miles ahead of most people in taking scripture only.

Look at John 6 again. You brought up verses 64-65 and 70. Just like John 10, I want you to read why Jesus said that, who He was talking to, and what was happening. The story here begins on verses 11-23 after this, Jesus begins a story after the people and disciples catch up with Him in verses 24-51. Notice now, these people (Jews) didn't understand what Jesus was saying verse 52. Jesus explained again to them verses 53-59. Even Jesus disciples had a hard time, verse 60-61.

Understand also in the OT, Judas is prophesied, Jesus is prophesied, all this is prophesied that the world would be saved through Jesus (example verses Luke 2:49; John 3:15-17; Genesis 3:14-15). Judas could have been saved if he had "Godly sorrow" and repented. To say otherwise is to take power and authority away from God. God would have taken him into the fold if Judas repented and I will show you a verse later to prove this and explain verse 70 in John 6.

John 6:64, who is Jesus talking to? Why did he say this? This is very important to understand the context of this verse.

Now to verse 70.

Did you not know that Peter was once referred to as the devil (Matthew 16:23)? Peter had "Godly sorrow", and did not take his own life, but strengthened in Christs teachings and became the one to give the confession and testimony that Christ built His church on (Acts 2). About what I mean in Godly sorrow, see to 2 Corinthians 7:8-11.

See Judas was chosen (ordained), Judas also was to fulfill prophecy, Judas could have repented and returned to Gods good grace. Judas was saved, however by "transgression fell" (Acts 1:25), therefore Judas could have repented by his own choice, but chose differently as we see. Acts 1:25 proves all the more that Judas WAS in a saved state and then lost it.

Those people who abandon their faith and leave shows that they have never really belonged to God, which means they have never been saved:

They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. (1 John 2:19)

Read carefully the verses I put down for Demas. He was a "fellow worker"/ a fellow laborer. Otherwise why would Paul write this, 2 Timothy 4:10. If Demas was never in a saved state to begin with, then Paul, who was guided by the Holy Spirit to write down the scripture, would have no reason to phase the verse in Timothy the way he did. "Demas has forsaken me, having loved this present world".

Demas WAS saved like Judas, but like Judas he lost salvation, falling from grace.

Back to the context issue, who is the book of 1 John written to? This is very important considering what conclusion you are trying to hold on to. To broadly explain 1 John 1:8-10 and 1 John 2:1-2, John is explaining how believers in Christ can walk in God's light and have fellowship with Him, with Christ as their advocate. In 1 John 2:3-17, John is urging to obey Christ fully and to love all the members of Gods family (Christians).

With so many warnings to Christians to obey or you fall, how can one say a Christian is not capable of falling from grace?

Now I am not saying they can't retake grace back through repentance, but that is just the thing, they have to choose to repent to get back in good standing (1 John 1:7-10).

Conclusion: Demas and Judas WERE saved, but fell from grace. They both could have had repentance and returned to God's fold, but didn't. These scriptures show the "once saved always saved" doctrine false.

Those people whose names that are written in the Book of Life are those that will eventually be saved, but we don't know who are God's elect. The only thing we know is as long as we maintain our faith till the end, we will be saved, which means we must have been chosen by God if we believe and maintain our faith till the end.

Those people in the book of Galatians are Christians Paul is speaking to. Paul is telling them/us basically that one can fall from grace.

Revelations also says this here Revelation 22:17-19.

"And whosoever will , let him take the water of life freely."

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book,"

"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life"

You can fall from grace.

Jesus knows His sheep and His sheep listen to Him and follow Him. Those people Jesus said never knew them are not His sheep, and have never been saved.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ (Matthew 7:21-23)

you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. (John 10:26-28)

Matthew 7:21-23 is people that think they are saved, people that think they obey the gospel, people that think all is good because they believe they are in Christ, but are not. It is because they did not obey the gospel, 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 could describe 2 categories of people. Those who thought they were in Christ but never were and those who WERE in Christ (Demas and Judas) and fell from grace, not obeying what the gospel has stated for us.

I already explained John 10 before so I won't get into that again.

Thank you for your time and kind reply. If your sole purpose was about "salvation; can it be lost" then I will not reply to the predestination section unless you so chose to wish for a reply.
 
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Lily of Valleys

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Well Jesus said in the following verse::

Revelation 3: KJV
{5} He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

If Jesus says He will not blot their names out of the book of life then that is also saing that Jesus can blot peoples names out of the Book of Life:::

Surely Jesus can blot people's names out of the Book of Life any time if He wants to, but if Jesus already had the foreknowledge of knowing who would eventually be saved and who would not, why do you think he would put the names of those who will not be saved in the book of life then reactively delete their names only at the point when they fall away as if He weren't omniscient? Shouldn't Jesus be beyond time which was actually a creation of God?

Besides, Jesus saying he will not blot out people's names can also mean once a name is written in the book of life, Jesus will not blot his name out.

Revelation 22: KJV
19 "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

The Alexandrian copy, one of Stephens', and the Complutensian edition, read, "the tree of life", not "the book of life"; and so do the Syriac and Ethiopic versions.

Here is the same verse in New American Standard Bible, the translation that is the most literal of the English translations, reflecting Hebrew and Greek grammar and style the best according to most Bible scholars:

"and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book." (Revelation 22:19 NASB)

I would also like to point out that Jesus said if anyone, which did not refer to only Christians alone.
 
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Lily of Valleys

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Hebrews 6:4-6,

You are missing a VERY important statement here. Let me put the verses down and highlight:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The highlighted in bold parts show you that these people WERE Christians, but fall away.
These people were "partakers" of the Holy Spirit, how can you say they were not Christians?

They "were once enlightened", how can you say they weren't?

They tasted "the heavenly gift", how can you say they didn't?

This verse puts what you are saying in utter contradiction so someone here is putting something out of context.
If you look at Hebrews 6:4-6 in context, the author of Hebrews was addressing a group of infant Christians who still lived on milk (5:11-6:2) to warn them not to abandon the faith (6:4-6), it does not necessarily suggest there were actual people who did that.

So lets look at what you brought up in John 10:27-28 below here.

Yes, I see that verse, I believe that verse, in its context. Look back to verse 24 and tell me who is Jesus talking to? The conversation in John 10:27-28 starts in Verse 24. Why did Jesus say that in John 10? Context is key.

If you look at John 10:27-28 in context, Jesus started comparing himself and his people to shepherd and sheep from John 10:1 when he talked to the Pharisees. That was when the Jews heard that (v19) and wondered if he was the Messiah that was predicted as a shepherd. Jesus answered them by continuing with what he told the Pharisees about the shepherd and the sheep. The context does not change the meaning of what Jesus said: no one will snatch His sheep out of His hand (v28), and no one can snatch His sheep out of His Father's hand. (v29)

I will try to respond to the rest later...
 
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Acts2:38

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Hello again, and good day! Thanks again for your time with me.

If you look at Hebrews 6:4-6 in context, the author of Hebrews was addressing a group of infant Christians who still lived on milk (5:11-6:2) to warn them not to abandon the faith (6:4-6), it does not necessarily suggest there were actual people who did that.

Did you just catch what you said?

A group of Christians ... to warn them not to abandon their faith.

This is what I was trying to get across from scripture the whole time, that one can be a christian and fall from grace.

The NT is chalk full of warnings to Christians telling them what would happen if they left the faith.

What you said before to what you just now said here, is a lot different. That is because I think you are beginning to see that.

What you said before: (paraphrasing) "If you are a christian you will never fall from grace. If you ever DO fall, you were never a christian to begin with.

However, now you are changing gears here.

You just now told me: (Paraphrasing) "They are Christians, a young group but still christian, being warned not to abandon their faith."

The mere fact of the warning, even if it doesn't suggest anyone did leave, if proof enough that it is possible like also the warning in Revelation on the seven churches and the warning in Galatians as well. Else why all the warnings and examples throughout scripture? Because a Christian can fall from grace (Romans 3:23 combined with 1 John 1:5-10 [1 John is talking to Christians]).

Therefore, you must take a step back and rethink if you are taking your supporting verses such as John 10:27-28 in the context they intend.

Hebrews was written to Hebrew Jews. These Hebrew Jews were Christians already, and the author of Hebrews knew something was going on with them. The Hebrew Jews were wanting to return to Judaism and the author was trying to warn them that this would cause them to lose salvation.

If you agree with this, I need not even explain John 10 again. If you agree with what I said here about Hebrews, from your study in Hebrews, then you know that a Christian COULD fall from grace, losing their salvation.

Now I never said they couldn't get their salvation back through repentance, but I am saying they can fall. That is the entire point of this discussion, that it can happen and has throughout time since then, I am sure because of all the separate churches not of Christ.
 
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Lily of Valleys

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Hello again, and good day! Thanks again for your time with me.

Did you just catch what you said?

A group of Christians ... to warn them not to abandon their faith.

This is what I was trying to get across from scripture the whole time, that one can be a christian and fall from grace.

The NT is chalk full of warnings to Christians telling them what would happen if they left the faith.
"Christian" is a general term that people call anyone who profess Christianity. It is not a word that God used to describe His people. God knows who are His, but we as humans don't know who are the sheep and who are the goats, the author of Hebrews is no exception.

"All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." (Matthew 25:32)

So yes, a self-proclaimed "Christian" may abandon their faith but God's sheep will not.

"you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand." (John 10:26-28)

"this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day." (John 6:39)

What you said before to what you just now said here, is a lot different. That is because I think you are beginning to see that.

What you said before: (paraphrasing) "If you are a christian you will never fall from grace. If you ever DO fall, you were never a christian to begin with.

That's not what I said or even what I meant. Please read my opening post in this thread.

However, now you are changing gears here.

You just now told me: (Paraphrasing) "They are Christians, a young group but still christian, being warned not to abandon their faith."

That's not what I meant either. Please refer to my response in the beginning of this post.

The mere fact of the warning, even if it doesn't suggest anyone did leave, if proof enough that it is possible like also the warning in Revelation on the seven churches and the warning in Galatians as well. Else why all the warnings and examples throughout scripture? Because a Christian can fall from grace (Romans 3:23 combined with 1 John 1:5-10 [1 John is talking to Christians]).

This is a similar question why share the gospel if God has already elected those who will eventually be saved. The answer is, we don't know who are the chosen ones by God, but we know that those who believe and maintain their faith till the end will eventually be saved, which is what God has promised.

Free will and election go hand-in-hand. It is pretty much what you determine to do with your free will contributes to what will happen to you in the future, whether you have a share in God's kingdom or not, at the end of the world.

Therefore, you must take a step back and rethink if you are taking your supporting verses such as John 10:27-28 in the context they intend.

Hebrews was written to Hebrew Jews. These Hebrew Jews were Christians already, and the author of Hebrews knew something was going on with them. The Hebrew Jews were wanting to return to Judaism and the author was trying to warn them that this would cause them to lose salvation.

If you agree with this, I need not even explain John 10 again. If you agree with what I said here about Hebrews, from your study in Hebrews, then you know that a Christian COULD fall from grace, losing their salvation.

Now I never said they couldn't get their salvation back through repentance, but I am saying they can fall. That is the entire point of this discussion, that it can happen and has throughout time since then, I am sure because of all the separate churches not of Christ.
Even after taking context into account, it is clear that anyone who abandons their faith cannot be the sheep Jesus mentioned in John 10. Why? Because Jesus said so:

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." (John 10:28-29)

What are the characteristics of the sheep?

- Listen to Jesus (v3, 27)
- Follow Jesus (v4, 27)
- Know Jesus (v14)
- Known by Jesus (v14, 27)
- Jesus lay down His life for (v17)
- Believe Jesus (v26)
- Never perish (v28)
- No one can snatch them out of God's hand (v28, v29)

If those who abandon their faith cannot be the sheep, who are the sheep Jesus referred to? And who are those who abandon their faith?
 
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Lily of Valleys

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Judas was indeed saved when Jesus "ordained" him. Jesus is high priest was capable of saving people at his whim because they were under the old law (thief on the cross before Jesus death saved under old law;Jesus didn't die yet).

People in the old testament were saved by faith:

"the righteous person will live by his faithfulness" (Habakkuk 2:4)

The thief on the cross was saved because he believed in Jesus. As far as I am aware, there is no where in the Bible that says Judas ever believed and had faith in Jesus.

Did you not know that Peter was once referred to as the devil (Matthew 16:23)? Peter had "Godly sorrow", and did not take his own life, but strengthened in Christs teachings and became the one to give the confession and testimony that Christ built His church on (Acts 2). About what I mean in Godly sorrow, see to 2 Corinthians 7:8-11.
Jesus didn't build His church on Peter, but since this is off-topic, so any further discussion on this should be on a separate thread.

See Judas was chosen (ordained), Judas also was to fulfill prophecy, Judas could have repented and returned to Gods good grace. Judas was saved, however by "transgression fell" (Acts 1:25), therefore Judas could have repented by his own choice, but chose differently as we see. Acts 1:25 proves all the more that Judas WAS in a saved state and then lost it.

Acts 1:25 says nothing about whether Judas had ever believed in Jesus. A literal translation reads "went aside", not "transgression fell". Here is a literal translation from NASB:

And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen to take the place of this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place. (Acts 1:24-25)

However, apostle John confirmed that those who left had never belonged to them to start with:

They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. (1 John 2:19)

Read carefully the verses I put down for Demas. He was a "fellow worker"/ a fellow laborer. Otherwise why would Paul write this, 2 Timothy 4:10. If Demas was never in a saved state to begin with, then Paul, who was guided by the Holy Spirit to write down the scripture, would have no reason to phase the verse in Timothy the way he did. "Demas has forsaken me, having loved this present world".
Again, this says nothing about whether Demas had ever believed and had faith in Jesus. A "fellow worker" or "fellow laborer" doesn't imply the person believes and has faith in Jesus. Dermas has forsaken Paul, not forsaken Christ. Please refer to my post above where I said humans are not God, therefore cannot read people's heart and know who are the sheep and who are the goats.

These scriptures show the "once saved always saved" doctrine false.

If you want to argue against the "once saved always saved" aka "eternal security" doctrine, I am afraid you have come to the wrong thread. My view is different. Please re-read my opening post.

Revelations also says this here Revelation 22:17-19.

"And whosoever will , let him take the water of life freely."

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book,"

"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life"

You can fall from grace.
I have addressed Revelation 22:19 in this post above: A View of Salvation

I already explained John 10 before so I won't get into that again.
Where did you explain John 10?

Thank you for your time and kind reply. If your sole purpose was about "salvation; can it be lost" then I will not reply to the predestination section unless you so chose to wish for a reply.
The purpose of this thread is in my opening post. It is up to you if you want to reply, but I would say God's election, predestination, salvation all go hand in hand.

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (Romans 8:29-30)
 
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fhansen

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God has chosen those who will in the end enter the Holy City according to His foreknowledge, similar to how he had chosen Jacob and David. Why God chose some people but not the others is based on His sovereignty and what He foreknew about us. God foreknew David would sin and would repent, all out of his free will. In effect, God has predestined our final destination without taking away our free will.

Only God knows who are the one He has chosen, those who have been chosen will be saved in the end, those who will not be saved have never obtained the salvation to start with, so no one will ever lose their salvation.

Does anyone know of any Bible verses that would speak against this view?
Yes, and this also happens to be consistent with the theology of the ancient churches, east and west.
 
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Acts2:38

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That's not what I meant either. Please refer to my response in the beginning of this post.

That's not what I said or even what I meant. Please read my opening post in this thread.

Hello again and hope all is well. Thank you for your time in this discussion.

I read your OP, however, through our discussion I learned things about you over time in our posts. That is how I came to my conclusions. By your own thoughts typed up here, you are bordering predestination, you believe once saved always saved, etc. These thoughts through the duration of our writings came from you. That is what I learned about you over time. So even though you refer to your OP, I refer you to ALL your posts combined in what you typed up. This is how I come to my conclusions.

With that said, I am not trying to twist your arm here, and I see that I cannot "talk" you out of your stance using scripture. But there are a few things you mentioned that I will speak with you about before I leave you be.

You mentioned bible translations and that you pull from the NASB and state it is a literal translation (I believe you said).

I pull from the KJV and the ASV. The KJV and ASV ARE literal translations I wish to inform you. The NASB is a reformed version of the ASV in modern language but "fluffed" a bit to help support false doctrines of men. You will notice a difference in lingo between the NASB and the ASV that change the whole meanings of the sentence. Which is wrong. What new revelation did the people who made the NASB get that the ASV didn't see from the Koine Greek? None, they just fluffed it to lean to mans ways instead of Gods.

Point in case, the KJV and ASV are literal translations FYI.

"Christian" is a general term that people call anyone who profess Christianity. It is not a word that God used to describe His people.

With all due respect and love, you are wrong.

Isaiah 62:2; 65:15 combine with Acts 11:26 (cross ref with Acts 26:28)

Isaiah prophesied this and in Acts 11 we who are in Christ, are called Christians. You may have missed this in your studies, so I needed to show you this scripture.

God knows who are His, but we as humans don't know who are the sheep and who are the goats, the author of Hebrews is no exception.

Yes, but how else would you call one brother or sister?

Hear the word – Romans 10:17, Matthew 7:24-27

Believe the word is true and believe in Jesus – Hebrews 11:6, Mark 16:15-16(not faith only), James 2:24, John 12:42

Repent of your sins and transgressions – Acts 2:38, Acts 17:30-31, Luke 13:3

Confess Jesus is Lord and Lord of your life – Matthew 10:32-33, Acts 8:36-37

Baptism for the repentance, forgiveness of your sins -


Remain faithful until death – Revelation 2:10

This is how you tell a Christian or someone still in the world.
 
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Lily of Valleys

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Yes, and this also happens to be consistent with the theology of the ancient churches, east and west.

Thanks for letting me know. Do you have links with more information about this theology of the ancient churches?
 
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Lily of Valleys

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I read your OP, however, through our discussion I learned things about you over time in our posts. That is how I came to my conclusions. By your own thoughts typed up here, you are bordering predestination, you believe once saved always saved, etc. These thoughts through the duration of our writings came from you. That is what I learned about you over time. So even though you refer to your OP, I refer you to ALL your posts combined in what you typed up. This is how I come to my conclusions.

With that said, I am not trying to twist your arm here, and I see that I cannot "talk" you out of your stance using scripture. But there are a few things you mentioned that I will speak with you about before I leave you be.
As I said, I am interested in a view that is consistent with the whole Bible, a view that can magically put all the pieces together and can explain all the Bible verses. I am not interested in how that view might or might not match up with some of the doctrines out there, which I found all seem to more or less have their shortcomings.

On the topic of predestination and eternal security, I am aware of the many Bible verses and arguments that speak for and against those. Some are valid, some are not. When we are dealing with Bible verses that appear to speak against each other, we need to decide which one cannot be interpreted any other way, and which one can have multiple interpretations.

For example, John 6:39-40 and John 10 seem to be contradicting Hebrews 6:4-6 on the surface. If your interpretation of Hebrews 6 is correct, there should be a reasonable interpretation on John 6 and 10 that would not speak against your interpretation of Hebrews 6. If there isn't any, then your interpretation of Hebrews 6 cannot be the correct interpretation. If there is only one interpretation of John 6 and 10 and no others, then the correct interpretation of Hebrews 6 must be the interpretation that does not speak against John 6 and 10.

To be honest, at this point I have not found the scriptures that have been presented in this thread so far sufficient to support a view that speak against what I presented in my opening post, which I admit to be brief and does not provide a lot of details. But I am still open to change or adjust my view if there is any significant Bible verses that I might have missed that would speak against it.

I will respond to the rest later in a separate post.
 
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wheatpenny

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My Mother has been a Christian for 40 years. During that time, she has gone through 2 marriages and walked away from Christianity 5 times!! Many a time she walked down paths of Paganism and sin, along with indulging in astrology, drinking, etc etc. I cannot judge her for this as I am in no place to judge, but everytime my Mother walked away, the Lord brought her back again. Every. Single. Time. She'd walk away, and grow far from him, but He'd bring her back and forgive her when she repented. She walked away one last time in 2001, but He brought her back. That time she prayed that she'd never walk away again, and cried and repented and to this day she feels regretful. After she prayed for this, she heard a voice say "You're safe now. You won't walk away again." To this day my Mother is a devoted lover of Christ, with little sign of ever turning away again.

I have also had a history of "walking away from Christ", and like your mother, I kept coming back only to walk away again. My last time was for a brief return to Islam (I had been a Muslim before for a few years but left because I got tired of always apologizing for the extremists), but I found I no longer had it in myself to believe a lot of what Muslims believe. This last time, just before I returned to Christ, I had a dream . I dreamed that I was in Mecca at the Sacred Mosque, trying to do Salat (the 5-times-a-day ritual prayer) and discovered that I had completely forgotten the words and I kept worrying that I'd get in trouble for being there (only Muslims are allowed in Mecca). When I woke up I discovered that I really had forgotten the words to Salat. My wife (an evangelical Christian) suggested that maybe it was not God's will for me to be a Muslim. Shortly thereafter I decided to give Christianity another try, and I felt a sudden calm come over me that persists even now. Because of that, I believe that I wasn't really saved before, but now I finally am, and God will keep me from wandering away again.
 
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Marvin Knox

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God has chosen those who will in the end enter the Holy City according to His foreknowledge, similar to how he had chosen Jacob and David. Why God chose some people but not the others is based on His sovereignty and what He foreknew about us. God foreknew David would sin and would repent, all out of his free will. In effect, God has predestined our final destination without taking away our free will.

Only God knows who are the one He has chosen, those who have been chosen will be saved in the end, those who will not be saved have never obtained the salvation to start with, so no one will ever lose their salvation.

Does anyone know of any Bible verses that would speak against this view?
IMO your view is correct --- with one caveat.

According to the scriptures, in their sinful condition no one seeks after God and no one can receive the things of God.

The Father must act sovereignly to draw His elect to the Son or they would not repent and be saved.

Since not all will be saved, it follows that He passes others by and leaves them to their own tendencies.

No one's free will is violated - although some become new creations by the grace of God who have a different will than they had before.
 
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fhansen

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Thanks for letting me know. Do you have links with more information about this theology of the ancient churches?
In general it's well known that the EO and RCC, for examples of churches that can trace their origins to the beginnings of Christianity, preserve the understanding of the necessity of man's will in playing some role in his turning to God and remaining there, no matter how small and how much help he may need. We must choose, not without the help of grace: life or death, good or evil, heaven or hell, God or no God. So we have the following teachings from the RCC that distill centuries of experience, practice, and thought:

600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of "predestination", he includes in it each person's free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:
When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42

2002 God's free initiative demands man's free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of "eternal life" respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:
If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed "very good" since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life.52

God, in His wisdom and love for man, having our best interest at heart, wants to involve us to the greatest extent we're able in our becoming just, by our willing or choosing that justice, and increasingly so over the course of whatever time we're given here on earth. He won't force man to choose rightly. That's what all the drama of the Fall of man and our ensuing experience here in this quasi-exile from God, with all of its innate good alongside the evil of sin, pain, suffering, and death, is all about.
 
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sdowney717

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Well Jesus said in the following verse::

Revelation 3: KJV
{5} He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

If Jesus says He will not blot their names out of the book of life then that is also saing that Jesus can blot peoples names out of the Book of Life:::

Revelation 22: KJV
19 "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

People overcome the world by their faith, so God considers them all overcomers and He will not blot their names from the book of life.
So to be an overcomer you believe in Christ, which agrees with all of the gospel, that those who believe have passed from death to life as Jesus stated most assuredly.

1 John 5New King James Version (NKJV)
5 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Now that leaves just Rev 22:19, which means those people must not be overcomers and so then have no faith in Christ. They are fruitless so then dead branches to God which will be cut off the True Vine and cast into the fire.

v6 are the non overcomers who do not abide in Christ, those are ones who have no faith.
They are fruitless and so are cut off by the Father. You know how important it is to bear good fruit.
Good fruit is what God produces in us, the fruits of His Holy Spirit. Christ created all things, even fruitless branches, but they will be removed from Him, He said depart from Me all you workers of iniquity.

John 15New King James Version (NKJV)
The True Vine
1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.


Does anyone believe this?
 
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JamesFW

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John 15New King James Version (NKJV)
The True Vine
1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.


Does anyone believe this?

Are you saying every person is a branch, believers and unbelievers alike?
How is it you believe Jesus is talking to unbelievers?
Verse 3 says they are already clean because of the word. Is this indicative of unbelievers?
 
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Lily of Valleys

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You mentioned bible translations and that you pull from the NASB and state it is a literal translation (I believe you said).

I pull from the KJV and the ASV. The KJV and ASV ARE literal translations I wish to inform you. The NASB is a reformed version of the ASV in modern language but "fluffed" a bit to help support false doctrines of men. You will notice a difference in lingo between the NASB and the ASV that change the whole meanings of the sentence. Which is wrong. What new revelation did the people who made the NASB get that the ASV didn't see from the Koine Greek? None, they just fluffed it to lean to mans ways instead of Gods.

Point in case, the KJV and ASV are literal translations FYI.
I have been using NIV since young but usually cross reference with KJV.

If ASV and KJV are both literal translations, why does ASV reads "tree of life" while KJV reads "book of life" in Revelation 22:19?!

From the list below, there are about 42 translations reads "tree of life", 10 translations reads "book of life", 1 reads "scroll of the life", 1 reads "life-giving tree", and 1 reads "the tree which gives life":

Revelation 22:19 - Bible Gateway

As I said, the Alexandrian copy, one of Stephens', and the Complutensian edition, read, "the tree of life", not "the book of life"; and so do the Syriac and Ethiopic versions. So "book of life" cannot be the literal translation in Revelation 22:19.

I don't want to get into another argument of which is the best translation, but here is a link that explains why NASB holds the reputation of being the most accurate Bible translation in English:

What Bible translation is closest to the original written scriptures?

I wish I were fluent in Aramaic, Hebrews and Greek, then I wouldn't have to read second-handed translations of what were original written.

With all due respect and love, you are wrong.

Isaiah 62:2; 65:15 combine with Acts 11:26 (cross ref with Acts 26:28)

Isaiah prophesied this and in Acts 11 we who are in Christ, are called Christians. You may have missed this in your studies, so I needed to show you this scripture.

If you read Isaiah 62 in context, further down in verse 4, the new name is "Hephzibah", which means "my delight is in her", not "Christian".

you will be called by a new name that the mouth of the Lord will bestow.
You will be a crown of splendor in the Lord’s hand, a royal diadem in the hand of your God.
No longer will they call you Deserted, or name your land Desolate.
But you will be called Hephzibah, and your land Beulah;
for the Lord will take delight in you, and your land will be married.
(Isaiah 62:2-4)

I think you misunderstood what I meant. I meant the word "Christian" no longer means anything since these days too many people call themselves "Christians", but it doesn't necessarily mean they are known by Jesus as His sheep.

Yes, but how else would you call one brother or sister?

Hear the word – Romans 10:17, Matthew 7:24-27

Believe the word is true and believe in Jesus – Hebrews 11:6, Mark 16:15-16(not faith only), James 2:24, John 12:42

Repent of your sins and transgressions – Acts 2:38, Acts 17:30-31, Luke 13:3

Confess Jesus is Lord and Lord of your life – Matthew 10:32-33, Acts 8:36-37

Baptism for the repentance, forgiveness of your sins -


Remain faithful until death – Revelation 2:10

This is how you tell a Christian or someone still in the world.
Anyone can do anything on the outside, but it doesn't mean they truly belong to Christ. Only those who have the Holy Spirit are the true children of the living God:

The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. (Romans 8:16)
if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. (Romans 8:9)

I am not God, I can't read people's heart. So if someone claims to be a "Christian", I just assume they are, until their fruits say otherwise.
 
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fhansen

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People overcome the world by their faith, so God considers them all overcomers and He will not blot their names from the book of life.
So to be an overcomer you believe in Christ, which agrees with all of the gospel, that those who believe have passed from death to life as Jesus stated most assuredly.

1 John 5New King James Version (NKJV)
5 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Now that leaves just Rev 22:19, which means those people must not be overcomers and so then have no faith in Christ. They are fruitless so then dead branches to God which will be cut off the True Vine and cast into the fire.

v6 are the non overcomers who do not abide in Christ, those are ones who have no faith.
They are fruitless and so are cut off by the Father. You know how important it is to bear good fruit.
Good fruit is what God produces in us, the fruits of His Holy Spirit. Christ created all things, even fruitless branches, but they will be removed from Him, He said depart from Me all you workers of iniquity.

John 15New King James Version (NKJV)
The True Vine
1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.


Does anyone believe this?

Yes, if our faith doesn't endure, if we do not remain in God and He in us in a relationship that produces love for Him and each other by its nature-and therefore willing obedience-then we'll be cut off.
 
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Marvin Knox

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Yes, if our faith doesn't endure, if we do not remain in God and He in us in a relationship that produces love for Him and each other by its nature-and therefore willing obedience-then we'll be cut off.
"For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." Phil. 1:6

Of course for those who are doing their own good work in themselves -- not so much. :rolleyes:
 
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sdowney717

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Are you saying every person is a branch, believers and unbelievers alike?
How is it you believe Jesus is talking to unbelievers?
Verse 3 says they are already clean because of the word. Is this indicative of unbelievers?
No, only believers, Jesus was speaking in particular to the disciples, that they were clean, but not all of them were.

Yes, everyone, all people are a branch on the True Vine Christ, but branches that do not abide in Christ are cut off by the Father as none of them bear good fruit to God.
You do know Christ created all things, Christ is their creator, all spirits, all souls, so they all had their origination in the True Vine, but they don't all abide in Christ, not all are believers, so they are cut off and wither, their end is death and the fire. God made all men in His image...

John 15 is not about losing your eternal life. It is about those who abide in Christ, and those who do not abide in Christ.

Paul also talks about gentiles as wild olive branches versus the Jews who are the natural branches. But they are all branches, and Christ the only True Vine.
 
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fhansen

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"For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." Phil. 1:6

Of course for those who are doing their own good work in themselves -- not so much. :rolleyes:
Of course, who's to judge whether someone's "doing their own good work in themselves" or for the right reasons, out of love for God and/or neighbor? Ephesian 2:10: "For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Unless we're so satisfied with our self-assessed level of faith that we think we don't need do a thing. :rolleyes: Anyway the work God does in us is never intended to be without our participation; we're to work out our salvation with he who works in us. Phil 2:12-13
 
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