MORE RAPTURE QUESTIONS

jerry kelso

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I would rather have "tunnel vision" than double-talk.

"This is just like a double reference of sorts." , Jerry Kelso

Either Jeremiah was talking about the Babylonian captivity, or he was not.
This is the truth of the big picture in context.

The 50 reasons for the pretrib doctrine and more rapture questions are all about Dispensationalists needing to get the Church off the planet so that God can deal again with modern Israel under the Old Covenant system, which is now "obsolete" based on Hebrews 8:13.

The truth is that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, completely destroys the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology.

All of those promoting the man-made doctrine need to find something else to fulfill their time.

A New Covenant Bible study would be a good place to start.


.

baberean2,

1. Don't think their is such thing as a double reference?
Matthew 16:21-23; says Peter wasn't going to let anyone kill Jesus and Jesus said, get behind me Satan for you don't savor the the things of God.
Jesus was rebuking the Devil for using Peter as a tool and rebuking Peter for not favoring the plan of God for Christ to be killed.

2. Many of your teachings are based on false understanding of dispensations and wrong labels from your teachers such as two gospels and two peoples of God etc.
There is no double talk on my part for I give you the correct context.
God said he would raise up David as King and the foreign nations would bother them anymore.
This didn't happen in Jeremiah's day and the foreign nations still oppressed them and still are bothering them.
You are more interested in your denominational stance than what the Bible really is saying.
You can't disprove the proof I have given and that is why you keep going back to your old misunderstandings that have already been debunked. That is a crying shame.

3. Just because the Jews have a slightly different calling concerning their need to be purged to receive their eternal promises in the covenant doesn't mean they are a separate people from the believers who have gone on before.
Spiritually, they will be one with all believers in the KoH. They will be saved by the blood of the Lamb according to New Covenant for there has been no other covenant since the Cross.
The believers in the church age do not have to physically be in the tribulation for Jews to be saved.
We are to make them jealous now and even since Paul's day but they will not come together as a complete nation of saved Jews until the time of Jacob's trouble.
Just because the church was the culmination of God's plan to officially save all men, Jews and Gentiles doesn't do away with the plan of God concerning Israel being at the head of the nations on earth.
You seem to think that is unfair because it doesn't apply with the church age people.
There will be other things the church age people will have authority in other capacities that Israel won't have. Is that unfair too?
In Ezekiel, the Jews thought they were in the club and didn't have to repent and that the Lord should not accept the heathens repentance. He said he was fair to accept repentance from the wicked and that he would be just to not remember their righteousness if they didn't repent.
You sound the same way; everybody has be in the church age saints club or at least under the umbrella or else it isn't valid.
God is in control and he has his order of how he does things and what positions he gives in the kingdom.
God gave gradual revelation and the death, burial, and resurrection was not totally understood by the Jews in Jesus day so they came to Christ by believing he was Messiah for entrance into the physical KoH but they didn't understand the gospel of being based on the death, burial, and resurrection like those after ther finished worked happened.
Those doesn't mean there are two different gospels of saving souls.
The basics like blood sacrifices were in types and shadows and saved by grace through faith of whatever their revelation was which was different in each age. These all led up to the epitome of the redemptive plan of God at Calvary according to the NC not the Old Covenant.
Even Jesus forgiving sins of the Jews was not final until he died and then rose again and since then all are saved to the uttermost under the NC Hebrew 11:40.
Proper perspective is not doubling talking but tunnel vision is being blinded of the truth. Jerry kelso
 
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BABerean2

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You are more interested in your denominational stance than what the Bible really is saying.

Jerry,

I am not a part of any denomination.
There is only one Church, revealed by Christ in Matthew chapter 16.


Paul said below that there are to be no divisions in the Church.


1Co 1:10  Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 
1Co 1:11  For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe's household, that there are contentions among you. 
1Co 1:12  Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ." 
1Co 1:13  Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 

I am a part of the Body of believers who have placed their faith in the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

There is only one Church which began at Pentecost and understands that there is only one plan of salvation, until the Second Coming of Christ.

There will not be any salvation outside of the New Covenant Church of Christ, during a future time period.

Rom 11:23  And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 

The Olive Tree of the verse above is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelite(cultivated) and Gentile(wild) branches grafted together into one tree.

Rom 11:24  For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 


There is only one tree, revealed as the Church in Matthew chapter 16.

.
 
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Postvieww

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1. You have shown no scripture that shows the church of today goes through the tribulation.


Why should I have to there is no scripture that says the church is removed before the tribulation?
 
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jerry kelso

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Jerry,

I am not a part of any denomination.
There is only one Church, revealed by Christ in Matthew chapter 16.


Paul said below that there are to be no divisions in the Church.


1Co 1:10  Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 
1Co 1:11  For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe's household, that there are contentions among you. 
1Co 1:12  Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ." 
1Co 1:13  Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 

I am a part of the Body of believers who have placed their faith in the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

There is only one Church which began at Pentecost and understands that there is only one plan of salvation, until the Second Coming of Christ.

There will not be any salvation outside of the New Covenant Church of Christ, during a future time period.

Rom 11:23  And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 

The Olive Tree of the verse above is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelite(cultivated) and Gentile(wild) branches grafted together into one tree.

Rom 11:24  For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 


There is only one tree, revealed as the Church in Matthew chapter 16.

.

baberean2,

1. I agree being saved is the requirement for the blood washed church of the lamb.

2. You also go to the Berean Church which is a denomination just like Baptist, Pentecostal etc.

3. All Christians put their faith in the blood of the lamb and are part of the New Covenant Church.

4. The grafting in of the Olive Tree makes up the church of Jews and Gentiles today.

I have no disagreements on these truths.
Jerry kelso
 
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BABerean2

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You also go to the Berean Church which is a denomination just like Baptist, Pentecostal etc.

I do not know where you got that idea. Maybe you assumed it based on my choice of names on this forum.

I go to Cross Community Church. It is a nondenominational church.

Most of our members have been members of local Baptist churches, in the past.



.
 
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Biblewriter

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I grew up in a church that claimed to be non denominational. And I finally realized that, like your church, is was more sectarian than most of the denominational churches it condemned.
 
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BABerean2

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And I finally realized that, like your church, is was more sectarian than most of the denominational churches it condemned.

Actually, some of the members of our church hold to your Two Peoples of God doctrine, so you would not know much about what our church "condemned".

Neither would you know how "sectarian" our church would be, except in your own imagination, since I love people who are promoters of modern Dispensational Theology.

.
 
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jerry kelso

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I do not know where you got that idea. Maybe you assumed it based on my choice of names on this forum.

I go to Cross Community Church. It is a nondenominational church.

Most of our members have been members of local Baptist churches, in the past.



.

baberean2,

1. Basically, all your videos seem to be Berean teachers.

2. Community Churches history is very broad just like the pilgrims and the Mormons who have been considered sectarian.
Many of the towns had many denominations until the town declined and the churches merged and settled on agreeing on the main issues of the faith and were given great latitude in what they believed personally.
Many still held on to ties with a major denominations such as baptists for various reasons and many more. Even PCA's are called community churches.
Many denominations just want to get from under the denominational blight.

3. Still, the truth remains that you are not being truthful except in your own eyes of context and not the biblical context.

4. Judah and Israel were one people blood wise but were a separate people spiritually. They have to be made one spiritually in order to be one physical nation that is not separated Ezekiel 37:16-28.
These two nations are two kingdoms are divided but shall be one upon the mountains of Israel and one king to them all v22. They have to be freed from the heathen nations v 21. David will be their king v 24.
V 26 deals with the everlasting covenant v 27 God's tabernacle v28 the heathen shall know that the Lord shall be in the midst to sanctify Israel when God's sanctuary shall be in the midst of them forevermore.
This goes along with Isaiah 2:2-4 at the head of the nations. This is truth of the scripture and an eternal covenant.

5. Roman's 9-11 is about the grafting of the olive tree.
The Gentiles being spiritual Jews is just that, spiritually but is not the context of Romans 2.
The term spiritual Jew would fit better in the KoH reign for Israel's seed will be like the sand of the sea and Israel's blessing will be flowing out of Israel Isaiah 2:2-4; Zechariah 14:20-21.

6. Romans 2 the real Jews are spiritual of the heart and in the spirit and not in the letter. The Gentiles were never under the letter which was the Mosaic law.
Abraham was a gentile and father of the Jews.
The sign of Circumcision was while he was in uncircumcision Romans 4:11. This pertains to righteousness of faith for all who believe.
The lawkeepers of the law were not to be heir through the law for faith would be made void.
This contexts doesn't beg the the term spiritual Jew as being a gentile.
Romans 10:12; for there is no difference between Jew and Greek for the same Lord is the same over all that are rich in him.

7. Roman's 11 is about the nation of Israel not obtaining that which they seek after but the election had because the others were blinded.
Because of the Jews fall Roman's 11:11 and more because of their rejection as a nation Matthew 23:37-39 salvation had come to the Gentiles v 11 which was foreordained in the first place Ephesians 1:4-7 but that is how it unfolded Roman's 11:11.
The Gentiles are the wild olive tree grafted into the olive tree Romans 11:17.
The natural branches; the Jews were broken off for us to be grafted in because of their unbelief vs 19-20.
The natural branches can be grafted in to their own olive tree when they come to know the Lord vs 23-24.

8. The mystery of the church was ratified at the cross Ephesians 2:13-16; 3:3-6.
It didn't come to fruition till Acts 10 with Peter and the vision of the clean and unclean that dealt with the gentile Cornelius and his family. Paul said it was revealed to all the church days apostles and prophets Ephesians 3:3-6.

9. Paul talks about the grafting of Gentiles to provoke the Jews to God Romans 11:11.
God has a Jewish remnant which concerns the KoH reign and this is why verse 2 that God has not cast away his people which he foreknew.
God needs no Jewish remnant in the olive tree for Jews to be saved because the Gentiles were given the KoG (spiritual) to be witnesses to them to come to know the Lord
Matthew 21:43.
The essence of the Gentiles being grafted into the wild olive tree was for the Gentiles provoking the Jewish nation to jealousy so they could fulfill their gifts and callings to the blind Jews and it will be that way till the fullness of the Gentiles Romans 11:25-29.

10. There will be Gentile saints in the tribulation; souls under the altar Revelation 6:9-11 provoking Israel and there will be Jewish believers as well like the 144,000 witnessing and the two witnesses Revelation 11; Revelation 7;9:4; 12:5,13;those that sing the song of Moses and the Lamb Revelation 15:1-2.

11. The rapture and resurrection for the church age saints was a mystery to the Old Testament saints 1 Corinthians 15:51-52.
Just because the church age saints are in Heaven and not on earth doesn't mean that the church of Jews and Gentiles are not on earth till the time of the Gentiles be come in.

12. After the Son gives the KoH back to the father, which is after the 1000 years and it becomes the KoG Allen all 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 the New Heaven and the New Earth will begin and the bride of God will be the Holy City inhabitants coming down from Heaven. Revelation 21:9; the bride, the Lamb's wife. Jerry kelso
 
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BABerean2

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baberean2,

1. Basically, all your videos seem to be Berean teachers.

2. Community Churches history is very broad just like the pilgrims and the Mormons who have been considered sectarian.
Many of the towns had many denominations until the town declined and the churches merged and settled on agreeing on the main issues of the faith and were given great latitude in what they believed personally.
Many still held on to ties with a major denominations such as baptists for various reasons and many more. Even PCA's are called community churches.
Many denominations just want to get from under the denominational blight.

3. Still, the truth remains that you are not being truthful except in your own eyes of context and not the biblical context.


Now you are making false claims, unless you can show that the majority of videos I have posted have come from those who label themselves as "Bereans".
Please provide the evidence for all here to see or prove yourself to be dishonest.


I am not a Lutheran, or a Methodist, or a Baptist, etc.
I am a part of the New Covenant Church that began on the Day of Pentecost.
It's head is Jesus Christ.



However, it is you who has adopted modern Dispensational Theology, which did not exist 200 years ago. Therefore, you are most certainly guilty of the very thing you are accusing me of doing.

You are promoting the doctrine of that denomination known as the "Exclusive Brethren", which was John Darby's splinter off of the Plymouth Brethren movement. Charles Haddon Spurgeon said that Darby considered only his group to be the "true Church" in London. Therefore, it was a cult.
Be careful of what you accuse others of.


When you point one finger at another believer, three fingers are pointing back in your direction.

.



.
 
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Biblewriter

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However, it is you who has adopted modern Dispensational Theology, which did not exist 200 years ago. Therefore, you are most certainly guilty of the very thing you are accusing me of doing.

You are promoting the doctrine of that denomination known as the "Exclusive Brethren", which was John Darby's splinter off of the Plymouth Brethren movement. Charles Haddon Spurgeon said that Darby considered only his group to be the "true Church" in London. Therefore, it was a cult.
Be careful of what you accuse others of.





.

When you cite history, you should take care to be at least partially correct. Almost everything you have said in this post is absolutely incorrect.

First, Dispensationalism did not begin with John Nelson Darby. It was clearly taught by a number of others before Darby even became a Christian.

Second, Darby was not a "splinter" off the Plymouth Brethren. He had, in actual fact, been their main leader for a long time before the first division came between any of them.

And third, Darby most certainly never considered his group to be the only "true church." In actual fact, both J. N. Darby and his close friend and associate William Kelly valiantly fought against this notion as it raised its ugly head in their midst. And it never actually took hold until after they were gone from the scene.

And I cite myself as the expert in this case. I sincerely believe that I have spent more time studying the writings of John Nelson Darby that any other living man. And it was his writings that eventually drove me out of the exclusive branch of the Plymouth Brethren, in which I grew up.
 
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Biblewriter

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Actually, some of the members of our church hold to your Two Peoples of God doctrine, so you would not know much about what our church "condemned".

Neither would you know how "sectarian" our church would be, except in your own imagination, since I love people who are promoters of modern Dispensational Theology.

.
I see you have deleted your previous comment to the effect that your church was based on your understanding of the Covenant of Jeremiah 31. Any church so based is sectarian, whether it admits it or not.
 
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BABerean2

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When you cite history, you should take care to be at least partially correct. Almost everything you have said in this post is absolutely incorrect.

First, Dispensationalism did not begin with John Nelson Darby. It was clearly taught by a number of others before Darby even became a Christian.

Second, Darby was not a "splinter" off the Plymouth Brethren. He had, in actual fact, been their main leader for a long time before the first division came between any of them.

And third, Darby most certainly never considered his group to be the only "true church." In actual fact, both J. N. Darby and his close friend and associate William Kelly valiantly fought against this notion as it raised its ugly head in their midst. And it never actually took hold until after they were gone from the scene.

And I cite myself as the expert in this case. I sincerely believe that I have spent more time studying the writings of John Nelson Darby that any other living man. And it was his writings that eventually drove me out of the exclusive branch of the Plymouth Brethren, in which I grew up.


Benjamin Newton and John Darby worked together as leaders of the Brethren at one time.
After Darby adopted the "Secret Rapture" and divided scripture into that for the Church and that for Israel, Newton could not accept Darby's new doctrine and this then caused the group to split. I am sure an "expert" would know such things.


You can pit William Kelly against Charles Spurgeon if you wish.
However, I will take the word of Spurgeon over that of Darby apologists Kelly or yourself.


PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf





Since the Greek word "diakathe" can be translated as "covenant" or "testament", the 27 books that follow the Old Testament are about the New Covenant of Christ. If that is a sect, I admit to being a part of it.

What are you are part of, if you are not in the New Covenant Church?

.
 
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Biblewriter

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Benjamin Newton and John Darby worked together as leaders of the Brethren at one time.
After Darby adopted the "Secret Rapture" and divided scripture into that for the Church and that for Israel, Newton could not accept Darby's new doctrine and this then caused the group to split. I am sure an "expert" would know such things.


You can pit William Kelly against Charles Spurgeon if you wish.
However, I will take the word of Spurgeon over that of Darby apologists Kelly or yourself.


PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf





Since the Greek word "diakathe" can be translated as "covenant" or "testament", the 27 books that follow the Old Testament are about the New Covenant of Christ. If that is a sect, I admit to being a part of it.

What are you are part of, if you are not in the New Covenant Church?

.

Benjamin Newton was NEVER a leader of the Plymouth brethren outside of his own church. Darby was ALWAYS a leader of the Plymouth brethren on an international level, from the beginning.

Charles Spurgeon was never even a part of the Plymouth brethren, and thus did not have personal knowledge of anything that happened, as did Williiam Kelly, who was right there in the middle of it.

And the articles you posted here have been repeatedly proven to be totally false. And you have seen the HARD PROOF that they are false. Yet you keep posting them.
 
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Marilyn C

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On another thread i asked if you can find in scripture that when we are changed in the twinkling of an eye that we go to heaven after meeting the Lord in the air. No such scripture was found. I would like to ask a few more questions


1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] BEHOLD, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The above scripture points out that “we shall all be changed” as the LAST TRUMPET is blown.

MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period. No matter how ya figure it, you cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown before the tribulation or at mid tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation. Yes, the trumpet blown in Matt.24 is the last trumpet of 1Cor.15

ISAIAH 27 [12] And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be GATHERED ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel.[13] And it shall come to pass in that day, that THE GREAT TRUMPET SHALL BE BLOWN, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, AND SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD IN THE HOLY MOUNT AT JERUSALEM.

The GREAT trumpet {also found in Matt.24} shall be blown. His people gathered. Its off to Jerusalem. To the kingdom. Not headin for heaven

So. What about it. Is the "last trumpet" really the last trumpet as the scriptures point out. How do the Rapturist get around these scriptures?

Hi WailingWall,

I can give a scripture that explains when and why we go to heaven, but will save that for its own thread.
Concerning the `last trump` being the 7th one in the trib. that is a very superficial reading of scripture. God`s voice is described `as a trumpet,` (Rev. 1: 10 & 4: 1) and we can see by the different contexts who He is speaking (trumpeting) to.

In Cor. 15 we see that God is speaking (trumpeting) to the Body of Christ, then in Rev. 11: 15 we realise that God is speaking (trumpeting) to the nations of the world.

Then in Matt. 24 we again by context realise that God is speaking to Israel. They are His elect (also). If Jesus meant the Body of Christ as the `elect` in that context then he would have been deceitful and a liar. Deceitful for He would be speaking to Israel who knew they were the elect, but he would be meaning another group. Then He would be a liar as he would be talking of a group (the Body of Christ) which he says later to Paul had not been revealed. Thus Jesus is not talking of a group that Israel knows nothing about, or was not even revealed at that time.

The elect in that context Jesus speaking to the people of Israel was of people of Israel in the future who would be gathered out of all the nations after the trib.

"Then they shall gather all your brethren for an offering to the Lord out of all the nations, on horses and in chariots and in litters, on mules and on camels, to my holy mountain Jerusalem," says the Lord.` (Isa. 66: 20)

How did they know to bring them? The angels, who are ministering to Israel will be God`s heralds to let the people know what has happened and to bring the Jews back to their homeland.

Marilyn.



 
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jerry kelso

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Now you are making false claims, unless you can show that the majority of videos I have posted have come from those who label themselves as "Bereans".
Please provide the evidence for all here to see or prove yourself to be dishonest.


I am not a Lutheran, or a Methodist, or a Baptist, etc.
I am a part of the New Covenant Church that began on the Day of Pentecost.
It's head is Jesus Christ.



However, it is you who has adopted modern Dispensational Theology, which did not exist 200 years ago. Therefore, you are most certainly guilty of the very thing you are accusing me of doing.

You are promoting the doctrine of that denomination known as the "Exclusive Brethren", which was John Darby's splinter off of the Plymouth Brethren movement. Charles Haddon Spurgeon said that Darby considered only his group to be the "true Church" in London. Therefore, it was a cult.
Be careful of what you accuse others of.


When you point one finger at another believer, three fingers are pointing back in your direction.

.



.

baberean2,

1. There was a Berean connection from the start with you but if it is not the majority it doesn't matter because your doctrine is wrong and you couldn't prove anything I said was scripturally wrong and that is why you have to keep sidetracking and putting down dispensationalism.

2. It doesn't matter what Spurgeon because he wasn't right on all his theology.

3. I wasn't pointing fingers but I was answering to your statement about your church about being non-denomination.

4. I told you that the only requirement to become a member of the church of Jesus Christ is to be saved by the blood.
That doesn't have nothing to do with you being wrong scripturally on a doctrine.
The truth is you throw out phrases like two different people's and two different kingdoms without understanding the proper context.
You are unfair by being one sided in your phrases and definitions and do not take into account both sides of the contextual truth.

5. Now you may think you are right against Darby but I have proved you are not right about what I have shown according to proper context of the scriptures concerning the two kingdoms, the two different gifts and callings of the Jews and Gentiles, the proper understanding of the spiritual Jew context and the whole context of the grafting in and the mystery of the church.
You have got nothing to say but your wrong, one sidedness and rejection of the whole context and wrong reconciling of the scriptures.
You cannot debunk what I have stated. All you can do is disagree or go back to your old mantra.
It is plain to see by your posts that you are not open or pliable to the truth. The fact you said I was pointing fingers when all the time I was answering to what you brought up is unfair.
There are absolutes in the scripture like being blood washed but your doctrine is not absolute in your false accusations about true dispensationalism and the kingdoms etc.
You need to learn how to exegete scripture correctly and how to rebut properly. Jerry kelso
 
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BABerean2

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baberean2,

1. There was a Berean connection from the start with you but if it is not the majority it doesn't matter because your doctrine is wrong and you couldn't prove anything I said was scripturally wrong and that is why you have to keep sidetracking and putting down dispensationalism.

2. It doesn't matter what Spurgeon because he wasn't right on all his theology.

3. I wasn't pointing fingers but I was answering to your statement about your church about being non-denomination.

4. I told you that the only requirement to become a member of the church of Jesus Christ is to be saved by the blood.
That doesn't have nothing to do with you being wrong scripturally on a doctrine.
The truth is you throw out phrases like two different people's and two different kingdoms without understanding the proper context.
You are unfair by being one sided in your phrases and definitions and do not take into account both sides of the contextual truth.

5. Now you may think you are right against Darby but I have proved you are not right about what I have shown according to proper context of the scriptures concerning the two kingdoms, the two different gifts and callings of the Jews and Gentiles, the proper understanding of the spiritual Jew context and the whole context of the grafting in and the mystery of the church.
You have got nothing to say but your wrong, one sidedness and rejection of the whole context and wrong reconciling of the scriptures.
You cannot debunk what I have stated. All you can do is disagree or go back to your old mantra.
It is plain to see by your posts that you are not open or pliable to the truth. The fact you said I was pointing fingers when all the time I was answering to what you brought up is unfair.
There are absolutes in the scripture like being blood washed but your doctrine is not absolute in your false accusations about true dispensationalism and the kingdoms etc.
You need to learn how to exegete scripture correctly and how to rebut properly. Jerry kelso

At least part of your doctrine is based on race (genealogy) instead of Grace.

The most important genealogy in the Bible is found in Matthew 1:1.
This is confirmed by Paul in Galatians 3:16.


In Matthew 3:9 John the Baptist warned his own people not to put their faith in being Abraham's seed.

In 1 Timothy 1:4 we are warned against using genealogy, which is what your doctrine is partially built upon.

I have shown on numerous occasions that the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God are one and the same. However, you ignore it and claim otherwise.

There will not be a future time when modern Israelites will be saved outside of the Church. (Galatians 1:6-9)
To claim otherwise is the greatest error of your doctrine.


.
 
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Biblewriter

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At least part of your doctrine is based on race (genealogy) instead of Grace.

The most important genealogy in the Bible is found in Matthew 1:1.
This is confirmed by Paul in Galatians 3:16.


In Matthew 3:9 John the Baptist warned his own people not to put their faith in being Abraham's seed.

In 1 Timothy 1:4 we are warned against using genealogy, which is what your doctrine is partially built upon.

I have shown on numerous occasions that the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God are one and the same. However, you ignore it and claim otherwise.

There will not be a future time when modern Israelites will be saved outside of the Church. (Galatians 1:6-9)
To claim otherwise is the greatest error of your doctrine.


.

Not even one of the scriptures you have quoted actually says what you claim it means. If your doctrine is true, then a full forth of the Old Testament is false. I will accept the word of God over yours.

There can be zero doubt that no one will ever be saved without a true and living trust in Christ. But not even one scripture even hints at the idea that the church is even involved in this process, other than in carrying the good news.
 
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BABerean2

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There can be zero doubt that no one will ever be saved without a true and living trust in Christ. But not even one scripture even hints at the idea that the church is even involved in this process, other than in carrying the good news.

Mat 16:13  When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?" 
Mat 16:14  So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 
Mat 16:15  He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 
Mat 16:16  Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 
Mat 16:17  Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 
Mat 16:18  And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.



 
Joh 10:11  "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 


Joh 10:12  But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 

Joh 10:13  The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 

Joh 10:14  I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 

Joh 10:15  As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 

Joh 10:16  And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. 





Heb 12:22  But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 


Heb 12:23  to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 

Heb 12:24  to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. 




Gal 1:6  I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 


Gal 1:7  which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 

Gal 1:8  But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 

Gal 1:9  As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. 



You (Biblewriter) said...

"But not even one scripture even hints at the idea that the church is even involved in this process, other than in carrying the good news"

Do you not see the contradiction in your logic above?

The greatest error of your doctrine is the idea that the Church will be removed from the planet before the Second Coming of Christ.

......................................................................
New Covenant in the NKJV

Jer_31:31  "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—


Mat_26:28  For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


Mar_14:24  And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.


Luk_22:20  Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.


1Co_11:25  In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."


2Co_3:6  who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.


Heb_8:8  Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—


Heb_8:13  In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


Heb_9:15  And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.


Heb_12:24  to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
.
 
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Biblewriter

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We should conform our viewpoint to God's Word, instead of conforming God's Word to our viewpoint.

Take your own advice.

You keep quoting scriptures that never quite say what you imagine they mean, in a vain attempt to escape literally hundreds of scriptures that day exactly the opposite of what you imagine these scriptures mean.
 
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jerry kelso

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At least part of your doctrine is based on race (genealogy) instead of Grace.

The most important genealogy in the Bible is found in Matthew 1:1.
This is confirmed by Paul in Galatians 3:16.


In Matthew 3:9 John the Baptist warned his own people not to put their faith in being Abraham's seed.

In 1 Timothy 1:4 we are warned against using genealogy, which is what your doctrine is partially built upon.

I have shown on numerous occasions that the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God are one and the same. However, you ignore it and claim otherwise.

There will not be a future time when modern Israelites will be saved outside of the Church. (Galatians 1:6-9)
To claim otherwise is the greatest error of your doctrine.


.

baberean2,

1. Based on race instead of grace?
That is the most ridiculous logic I ever heard of.
We are saved by grace not race Roman's 4:16.
The Jews were salt and light of the world Matthew 5:13-16 and they were given the oracles of God Roman's 3:2 to dispense the gospel of grace to the heathen. They were to be nice to the stranger at the gate because they once were strangers in Egypt Deuteronomy 16:11,12,14.
The church was grafted in and are to provoke the Jews to jealousy by their testimony Romans 11:11. You gonna play the race card their too?
Roman's 11:30 talks about Gentiles not believing in the past but now because of the Jews unbelief they have obtained mercy. That doesn't mean the are actually saved by the Jews unbelief but they are given opportunity to come to God. Salvation is still grace by faith.
So quit making false accusations about salvation by race that are not biblical.

2. Matthew 1:1; these genealogies are Abraham and David.
Abraham's genealogy was eternal and pertains to righteousness by faith Roman's 4:3 which eventually would be based on spiritual circumcision not made of hands which is of the heart Colossians 2:11 of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
It was also about the families of the earth being blessed Genesis 12:3.
It also is about the land for the nation of Israel Genesis 12-15; Psalm 37:11; Matthew 4:17; Matthew 5:5.

3. The genealogy of David was all about the KoH reign and promises of Israel God made in the eternal covenants 2 Samuel 7:13-16 1 Chronicles 28:1-9, Isaiah 2:2-4; 9:6-7; 66:7-9.
Luke 1:69-80 shows the horn of salvation to save Israel from their enemies. Also, the oath to Abraham which parallels with David.
Paul is talking about Abraham's seed is just about the spiritual aspect which would not be through the law and would save Jew and Gentile alike.
Luke 1:73-75 shows Israel the nation will all be saved when they repent in the tribulation known as Jacob's trouble Jeremiah 30:7; Matthew 24:21; Revelation 1:7; 12; Isaiah 66:7-8 etc.
They rejected the KoH and the KoG but it will be restored after the tribulation and so will Israel's position in the KoH reign on earth when they say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord Matthew 23:37-37.

4. Matthew 3:9; their faith as Abraham's seed could never save them anymore than in Ezekiel's day Ezekiel 18:19-32.
Repentance of the nation as a whole is the condition of entrance into the eternal KoH reign Romans 11:25-29. This won't happen until they recognize him as the suffering Savior and then he will accept them for entrance into the KoH reign Ezekiel 37:16- 28 as one nation verse 22.

5. 1 Timothy 1:4 you are contradictory and out of context.
Israel as a nation will be saved by the blood of the New Covenant Revelation 15:1-2 for there is no other covenant.
Their genealogy has to with eternal covenant promises concerning specific land and position in the KoH reign. It is conditioned by salvation by grace not their genealogy.

6. I have showed you they have similarities and they also have distinctions. The Jews know this too.
Matthew 6:33 the Jews were told to seek the KoG and it came without observation which was about the Spiritual rule of God in their hearts and the KoH was the physical kingdom on earth that KoH reign will be Daniel 7:27; Matthew 4:17;13 the parables contain spiritual things.
Once again you are being one-sided and throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Whether you want to not believe in the distinction of the KoH and the KoG the truth is that Israel will be saved as the nation and Jerusalem will be the capital of the earth and Israel will be at the head of the nations etc.
Galatians 1:6:9; this has to do with the Gentile believers who were trying to be justified by the law instead of grace. This has nothing to do with the eternal covenants of Israel that will come to pass.
In the tribulation they will build the temple and offer sacrifices and those sacrifices will cease by the Antichrist 2 Thessalonians 2 and Revelation 11.
This will be a false regathering and will cause them to go into Jacob's trouble for this is in the middle of the tribulation which starts Jacob's trouble Revelation 11.
The angel measuring the temple with the rod is also about persecution and destruction which Israel will have to be purged Daniel 9:24-27 and a nation born in one day Isaiah 66:8-9.
Zechariah 13:9 shows 2/3 of Jews will be cut off and 1/3 saved.

7. The resurrection and rapture of the church was a mystery to the Old Testament saints 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 just like the church was a mystery to the Old Testament saints. Ephesians 2:14-5;3:3-6.
The last day resurrection John 5:27 was an Old Testament doctrine of which Hebrews says for the Hebrew Christians to not lay down again Hebrews 6:1-2. This doesn't mean there won't be a last day Resurrection for the last ones will be the tribulation saints who don't take the mark of the beast Revelation 15:1-2;20:4-6 to finish out the first resurrection.
They will be in time for the Marriage of the Lamb Revelation 19:8-10 and will come out of Heaven with all the other saints who are already in Heaven.
They will go with Christ to the great Supper of the great God Revelation 19:17.
The Battle of Armageddon is to destroy Israel's enemies Revelation 16:16-21 and take the kingdoms of this world over Revelation 11:15 and save the remnant of Israel and the nation preserved in the wilderness Revelation 12:13-16.

8. God doesn't have to have the church age believers on earth for he will save the souls under the altar Revelation 6:9-11, the 144,000 Jews and the two witnesses Revelation 11.
God can have rocks cry out to proclaim his glory and be a witness so he doesn't have to have the church age saints in the tribulation and it doesn't say that.
The Spirit will be poured out on all the Spirit in the last days according to Joel which will be Jews and Gentiles alike. They both will be saved by the blood of the lamb and will be one in Christ and they will be the church in those days. The gates of hell shall never prevail against the church.
This doesn't disannual the Covenants with Israel and the KoH anymore than the churches position in the KoH.

9. So it is plain to see from your posts that you are one sided and don't take into account the whole truth or the proper perspective.
Your posts are full of trying to put words in people's mouth of what they truly believe.
God has order of doing things and nothing I have stated scripturally is contradictory.
10. 2 Timothy 2:12 the present church is being trained for the Kingdom through suffering which will be the KoH Revelation 5:9-10.
Israel is the nation, God's wife who will come back to him by purification Daniel 2:24-27 and by tribulation through the time of Jacob's trouble Jeremiah 30-7; Matthew 24:21-22; Revelation 11&12 etc.
According to your posts you don't understand the big picture and the details either in the proper perspective. It would be right for you to quit making false accusations against what you think dispensational belief says and the word of God says that it doesn't say according to the context and of things you you don't understand.
Until you learn how to properly exegete scripture and quit thinking of context as doubletalk and because you think everything has to be plain and simple according your lack of understanding to context and your constant tunnel vision you will never come to the truth. Jerry kelso
 
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