Speak in Tongues - essential :

Righttruth · Jul 3, 2017

Waggles said:
Unscriptural.
Human beings like everything else in the Creation comes in fours -
body - heart - mind - spirit
A soul is a living spirit that is our awareness, our sentience; our need to connect with God.
That is why when people see the dead they see them in their fleshly form.
So when Saul is raised up by the witch of Endor his soul is recognisable as Saul.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Genesis 2:7
SOUL > H5315 nephesh > From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature ...
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
James 2:26
Animals, all life and especially us humans are only alive and thrive because we have the Spirit of God within us - this makes humans a living soul purposed (unlike animals) for an eternal destination.
Romans 8 is how the Holy Spirit in a Pentecostal saint incorporates our spirit
and thus we have the ability to pray in the Spirit as children of God.

Obviously you deny even Paul clouded by your self-deceptive logic:

1 Thessalonians 5
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Marvin Knox · Jul 3, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
A language could be unknown to [modern] humans, that doesn't make it gibberish. Being gibberish makes it gibberish.

Language contains things such as words with discrete meaning, along with syntax. A statement made in any language can be broken down in this way. For example words are comprised of phonemes, morphemes; these are units of sound which comprise a word. A word fits a particular category of language, nouns, verbs, adjectives, adverbs, pronounds, and others which when joined together in a syntax consists of a thought--a complete thought being a sentence. For example, "My name is Bob" or "Watashi no namae wa Bob desu." or "Mi nombre es Bob". The first example is English which consists of the first person possessive pronoun "my" which is linked to the noun "name" along with the verb "is" along with the proper noun "Bob" corresponding to "name". This form of syntax is known as SVO (Subject-Verb-Object) the subject is "my name" the verb is "is" and the object is "Bob". The statement "Mi nombre es Bob" is Spanish, and corresponds pretty directly with the English.

The Japanese sentence, "Watashi no namae wa Bob desu." is a different kind of syntax than either English or Spanish, but we can break it down all the same, "watashi" is a first person pronoun meaning "I" there is no morphology here, such as in English me/my/I/etc. Which is followed by "no" is a modifying particle, here it connects "watashi" and "namae", the word "namae" means "name" (its similar sound to English is coincidence) and so "watashi no namae" can be translated as "my name", which is followed by "wa" a particular kind of particle in Japanese which connotes topic, it is here linking "watashi no namae" with "Bob". Ending with the copula "desu" which signifies that the sentence was a statement, if one were to say "watashi no namae wa Bob desuka?" it'd be a question, one that might sound funny, "My name is Bob?".

Words are further broken down, such as in English "my" consists of two phonemes, m and y which together form "my". In the case of Japanese, word break down is rather simple since words are constructed of particular sound-structures natively known as "mora" these are things like ka, chi, tsu, a, i, n; the word watashi can be broken down into these syllabic structures as follows: wa-ta-shi. The word namae can be broken down as no-ma-e.

All languages can be deconstructed, because all languages have an internal sense and logic to them, consisting of words constructed of sound qualities, structured into a sentence with a particular syntax. And it is the general consistency of this which makes it language rather than just producing nonsense sounds.

Gibberish, on the other hand, is just that--the production of nonsense sounds which comprise of no internal logic, structure, and therefore no meaning. Gibberish may be able to sound, at times, language-like by achieving a certain cadence and speech tempo--but without underlying meaningful structure it remains noise and not language.

-CryptoLutheran

Do you believe that tongues and interpretation as instructed for us in 1 Corinthians 14 is still active today or has it ceased?

Biblicist · Jul 3, 2017

Righttruth said:
Why do you quote footnotes?

Even though your comment was directed to another, let me help you to understand a tool that every experienced student of the Scriptures is aware of. When you are looking to purchase a new book such as a commentary, you should first check to see if the commentary comes with a fair amount of commentary in the footnotes; as it has been said by many others, “The best material is often hidden in the fine print”, which is something that the novice will usually fail to realise.

Oddly enough, on maybe the majority of occasions a Bible translation committee will place the ‘better’ translation option in the footnotes, where the option contained in the main body of the text has been left there to placate their readers or an editor or two, though this is certainly not always the case.

Now with the footnotes that 1stcenturylady provided, you should have picked up that the quotes did not actually come from the NASB but the ASV, which is a mistake that is easily made when cutting-and-pasting between applications.

1stcenturylady · Jul 3, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
Attacking the person, rather than the argument, is an ad hominem argument.

That's an ad hominem again.

I have not once referred to God's gift as gibberish. I have not once, in this entire thread, referred to the gift of tongues as gibberish. What I have said is that what is commonly seen in Pentecostal and Charismatic circles is not the gift of tongues.

It seems that you take this personally, and rather than engaging in civil debate you feel it necessary to poison the well and engage in ad hominem argument. After all, by telling yourself that I'm some wicked "mocker" who has no reverence toward God then any point or argument I've made can be dismissed without ever dealing with it.

The unwillingness to question or have one's beliefs challenged is not healthy.

I am quite willing to be wrong in all this, but I need better arguments then what I'm seeing so far.

-CryptoLutheran

I've asked and asked that you people stop using the "G" word and you seem to enjoy using it for the sole purpose of offending. You are doing that, so, yes, YOU are mockers.

1stcenturylady · Jul 3, 2017

Righttruth said:
Do you believe the main text or some convenient and doubtful footnotes?

You are the one who chose the NASB, when there are many who do not hold to your argument, and even the NASB as shown in the footnote doesn't. Even the translators put "his" in italics. You want to prove it is his spirit, rather than the Spirit. But it is very weak, and wrong. You really don't care what God inspired. You are your own god.

Righttruth · Jul 3, 2017

Biblicist said:
Even though your comment was directed to another, let me help you to understand a tool that every experienced student of the Scriptures is aware of. When you are looking to purchase a new book such as a commentary, you should first check to see if the commentary comes with a fair amount of commentary in the footnotes; as it has been said by many others, “The best material is often hidden in the fine print”, which is something that the novice will usually fail to realise.

Oddly enough, on maybe the majority of occasions a Bible translation committee will place the ‘better’ translation option in the footnotes, where the option contained in the main body of the text has been left there to placate their readers or an editor or two, though this is certainly not always the case.

Now with the footnotes that 1stcenturylady provided, you should have picked up that the quotes did not actually come from the NASB but the ASV, which is a mistake that is easily made when cutting-and-pasting between applications.

I agree with you on the help we get from footnotes and their importance in arriving at the understanding of the verses. Nevertheless, one verse or footnote or even one book and one author cannot become a basic base for building our understanding.

By the way, the footnotes 1stcenturylady provided were also found in my copies of NASB and NIV versions also.

Righttruth · Jul 3, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
You are the one who chose the NASB, when there are many who do not hold to your argument, and even the NASB as shown in the footnote doesn't. Even the translators put "his" in italics. You want to prove it is his spirit, rather than the Spirit. But it is very weak, and wrong. You really don't care what God inspired. You are your own god.

I have several versions of the Bible with me. You cannot substitute 'S' for 's' as you like. You cannot equate the persons's spirits to the Holy Spirit. It is you who is claiming to be the Holy Spirit when you act with your spirit.

1stcenturylady · Jul 3, 2017

Righttruth said:
I have several versions of the Bible with me. You cannot substitute 'S' for 's' as you like. You cannot equate the persons's spirits to the Holy Spirit. It is you who is claiming to be the Holy Spirit when you act with your spirit.

Your spirit says a lot about you.

Waggles · Jul 4, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
Your spirit says a lot about you.

Let those who choose to be ignorant remain ignorant.

Remember one's calling is from our Father through Jesus by the Spirit.
If a person's heart is not open to this and if a person's ears cannot hear, nor their eyes
open to see ... they cannot respond and embrace the high calling of Pentecost.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up
at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, comes unto me.
John 6:44-45
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceeds from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 15:26
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1 Corinthians 1:24
For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.
1 Corinthians 4:20
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the
Holy Ghost.
18 For he that in these things serves Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men
Romans 14:17-18

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Philippians 3:14-15
11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.
12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
13 And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them.
mark 6:11-13

1stcenturylady · Jul 4, 2017

Waggles said:
Let those who choose to be ignorant remain ignorant.

Remember one's calling is from our Father through Jesus by the Spirit.
If a person's heart is not open to this and if a person's ears cannot hear, nor their eyes
open to see ... they cannot respond and embrace the high calling of Pentecost.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up
at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, comes unto me.
John 6:44-45
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceeds from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 15:26
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1 Corinthians 1:24
For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.
1 Corinthians 4:20
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the
Holy Ghost.
18 For he that in these things serves Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men
Romans 14:17-18

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Philippians 3:14-15
11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.
12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
13 And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them.
mark 6:11-13

Its one thing to not want the gifts for yourself, but it is another to try to preach unbelief to others. Its not like they are going to win a true believer to their side of unbelief, so it is only to mock and offend. I don't even know why they bother. Its not like they will ever be given the ability to speak let alone hear God's voice or any of the higher gifts with as much mocking they do. “God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.”

26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”

Let them despise tongues. They're behavior is exactly why tongues is a "sign which will be spoken against." This type of sign confirms an unbeliever in their unbelief. Loud and clear.

Bollweevil · Jul 4, 2017

1 Corinthians 13:8-10
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.

You may as well say that there is no Father and no Son and I am at a complete loss as to why you are trying to incorrectly say that the Manifestations of the Spirit were only for the Apostles, have you read Acts, Romans, 1 Corinthians, Ephesians and Jude?[/QUOTE]

I may not be understanding your first point completely because it doesn't make sense. The point is people were gathered from all types of languages and whatever was being said before Peter's sermon everyone understood. It's my understanding that the people in Acts were confused as to what was happening was simply that everyone was understanding what was being said which would be a confounding unexplainable thing to them. Of course Jesus was mentioned. Peter's sermon was preached by the Holy Spirit about Jesus that's how all understood. At the end of Peter's talking Peter answered the crowds question of what should they should do and Peter said repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus.

Simply observe what goes on in our world today, there are no miraculous gifts. There is the Holy Spirit that does dwell in God's people yet It's function is different from what it did in the apostles.

I didn't say the manifestations of The Spirit were only for the apostles, I said just the opposite. God's Spirit does dwell in us and does have manifestations, only different ones. There is no one healing the sick, raising the dead, or speaking a language they don't know or listening to someone speak in a language they don't know yet understand what is being said. This is simply not happening today. You even site above 1 Corinthians 13 that states tongues will pass away along with other manifestations of The Spirit.

ViaCrucis · Jul 4, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
I've asked and asked that you people stop using the "G" word and you seem to enjoy using it for the sole purpose of offending. You are doing that, so, yes, YOU are mockers.

Alright, what word would you find acceptable?

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · Jul 4, 2017

Marvin Knox said:
Do you believe that tongues and interpretation as instructed for us in 1 Corinthians 14 is still active today or has it ceased?

I'm not a cessationist. A genuine charism of speaking in tongues is entirely possible, and I have no problem with it.

-CryptoLutheran

Biblicist · Jul 4, 2017

Bollweevil said:
You may as well say that there is no Father and no Son and I am at a complete loss as to why you are trying to incorrectly say that the Manifestations of the Spirit were only for the Apostles, have you read Acts, Romans, 1 Corinthians, Ephesians and Jude?

I may not be understanding your first point completely because it doesn't make sense. The point is people were gathered from all types of languages and whatever was being said before Peter's sermon everyone understood. It's my understanding that the people in Acts were confused as to what was happening was simply that everyone was understanding what was being said which would be a confounding unexplainable thing to them. Of course Jesus was mentioned. Peter's sermon was preached by the Holy Spirit about Jesus that's how all understood. At the end of Peter's talking Peter answered the crowds question of what should they should do and Peter said repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus.

When we read the response that the crowd gave in Acts 2:11 to how the 120 were "declaring the wonders of God", we can easily understand their confusion as they would be at a loss as to how these rustic and unsophisticated Galileans were speaking in so many languages. We can add to this how odd their words would have sounded as even though the Galileans were speaking in the languages of the visiting Jews, the Galileans would have had not been able to control the required breathing points and voice accents that would have made the words sound pleasing to the visitors ears.

Even though the Holy Spirit empowered the 120 to speak in languages that they did not know, there is only so much that the Holy Spirit can do and the only way that he would be able to force them to add in the appropriate pauses and voice inflections would be if they were in some ecstatic state, which of course is not what happens when we speak in tongues.

As much as it is common to hear populist expressions that the Holy Spirit was speaking an evangelistic message through them to the crowd, we have no evidence of this and all we are told is that they were "declaring the wonders of God" which has nothing specifically to do with the Gospel. What happened on the Day of Pentecost has its parallel in 1Cor 14:16 where Paul refers to how tongues is used to "praise God in the Spirit".

What we certainly do not see recorded in Acts is the crowd approaching the 120 asking "who is this Jesus that you are talking about", in fact from what we can tell, the Holy Spirit said nothing about Jesus or the Gospel, if he had then they would not have been as confused as they were.

Simply observe what goes on in our world today, there are no miraculous gifts. There is the Holy Spirit that does dwell in God's people yet It's function is different from what it did in the apostles.

I didn't say the manifestations of The Spirit were only for the apostles, I said just the opposite. God's Spirit does dwell in us and does have manifestations, only different ones. There is no one healing the sick, raising the dead, or speaking a language they don't know or listening to someone speak in a language they don't know yet understand what is being said. This is simply not happening today. You even site above 1 Corinthians 13 that states tongues will pass away along with other manifestations of The Spirit.

From what I can tell from what you have said, it appears that you do not believe that the Holy Spirit still works today as he did in the lives of the Christians of the first century!

Biblicist · Jul 4, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
I'm not a cessationist. A genuine charism of speaking in tongues is entirely possible, and I have no problem with it.

-CryptoLutheran

Yes, there are many millions who once wondered if we could pray in the Spirit (tongues) as they did in the Church of Paul's day, now we all know that we can - and praise God that we can!!!!!!!

Anto9us · Jul 4, 2017

The "response of the crowd" at Pentecost was VARIED when the outpouring happened...

Some said the believers were METHOUSIA -- drunken -- which Peter had to CORRECT when he got up to speak.

Yes, Peter did preach about Jesus that first sermon of the church.
Yes, the PROMISE was to those beyond that first generation.

μεθύω methýō, meth-oo'-o; from another form of G3178; to drink to intoxication, i.e. get drunk:—drink well, make (be) drunk(-en).

Act 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

2:39
For the promise is unto you,

and to your children,

and to all that are afar off,

even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

This promise is extended into the future -- "as many as the Lord our God shall call"

Is God finished CALLING PEOPLE?

Does anyone here COUNT THEMSELVES AS HAVING APPREHENDED
and can declare that God is through CALLING PEOPLE?

Marvin Knox · Jul 4, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
Alright, what word would you find acceptable? -CryptoLutheran

How about we use the same words the Spirit of Christ dwelling in the writers of the N.T. used.

He chose to use the words "unknown" tongues".

Most of us should be able to live with that rather than paraphrase our creator with the word gibberish.

The only ones who wouldn't be able to settle for the Lord's choice of words would be someone looking to purposefully incite a reaction from the Lord or His children.

Marvin Knox · Jul 4, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
I'm not a cessationist. A genuine charism of speaking in tongues is entirely possible, and I have no problem with it.

If we are to believe the statistics provided by the researchers at Wheaton College, approaching 1/3 of the church practices the charism of speaking in tongues privately in prayer and publicly in their services.

This segment of Christianity is, according to Wheaton, the most committed body of believers with the greatest percentage of regular church attendees in all of the body of Christ.

Their outreaches around the world amount to the most productive generation of evangelistic activity to ever live on this earth.

People who believe in and practice unknown tongues and interpretation now number many hundreds of millions of our brothers and sisters scattered over the face every continent.

Of these millions of people - indwelt and led by the Spirit of God – none that I am aware of, either in this century or in centuries past, practice tongues in the way you insist they do it or remain silent.

You and others insist on calling what all of these brothers and sisters do (pretty much universally) “gibberish”.

You insist that all “languages can be deconstructed, because all languages have an internal sense and logic to them, consisting of words constructed of sound qualities, structured into a sentence with a particular syntax. And it is the general consistency of this which makes it language rather than just producing nonsense sounds”.

If they cannot be understood by you and some others in this way you will continue to call unknown tongues gibberish. IMO with that kind of attitude, you aren’t likely to receive a special revelation from God.

Since the scriptures tell us that no man can understand the unknown tongues spoken in Corinthians and currently worldwide without a special interpretation by the Holy Spirit - we’ll just have to let you deniers believe what you want to believe about this subject and save our arguments from the scriptures, which you refuse to accept anyway.

Multiplied millions of believers have asked in faith and received or simply received as an unexpected gift exactly the kind of tongues practiced universally around the world.

None – that I have seen documented - have received personally or practice in their services what you claim is the only true kind of tongues.

When the Lord gave us His Spirit, He told us that we had no need for men to teach us - but that the Spirit would lead us into all truth. These hundreds of millions of simple believers have shown themselves open to the things of the Spirit and in most cases try not to grieve Him through doubt and lack of faith.

Few if any out there that I am aware of are being led by the Spirit of God to believe as you do.

Call my naiveté stupid or call it faith. But I’m going with the odds on favorite way of looking at these things.

Add to that the fact that I see it clearly taught in the scriptures and I think I’m on a good path and will continue to believe as I do.

IMO the spiritual naiveté and lack of faith is on the other foot.

Uber Genius · Jul 4, 2017

Unfortunately you have deleted some Biblical data.

Didn't Paul say that not all speak in tongues?

If you are going to claim We must pray in tongues then do you also pick up serpents? Drink poison? Heal the sick?

Since they are contextually in the same passage and same list, you can't divorce tongues from the others.

And why use verses from Mark 16:9-20 that is agreed by most scholars, internally and externally to be a late addition. It doesn't appear in the early manuscripts (4th century). Jerome and Eusebius both say these passages are not authentic!

Uber Genius · Jul 4, 2017

Marvin Knox said:
When the Lord gave us His Spirit, He told us that we had no need for men to teach us - but that the Spirit would lead us into all truth.

And yet you use your rationality to argue the inference for the scriptures meaning both to the original audience and now. So it seems that we are getting in your response more than the HS teaching us.

I don't know how you limit the damage of such a statement so at one time it makes you impervious to cessationists without destroying the 7 ecumenical councils that give us our Christian creeds, which were clearly teaching of men.

Perhaps not all speak in tongues but all are given a gift for the building up of the body.

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