On Free Will

Jennifer Rothnie said:

Do you have scripture to back up the reason you believe that explicit scripture, inspired by God, is wrong, lying, or otherwise misleading? The scripture says that unbelievers 'glorified God' - even Philistines, enemies of God and His people. You will need something a lot stronger than personal assertion to handwave away the word of God.

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I think he can't believe what you wrote, because it would mess up his theology.

Hammster said:

I don't think it's wrong or misleading. I think your conclusion is wrong. We know from scripture that no one in the flesh can please God. It's pretty clear.

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Nothing was said about pleasing God; it said glorified God. Don't be taking the southbound train to the North Pole.

Hammster said:

I cannot. In fact, that's what I was arguing against.

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But, don't you sum a whole about predestination from only a few verses?

Hammster said:

No, not really. I may get started discussing, though. But you concluded that because Paul didn't discuss A in a passage that A must be false.

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As I said before, Paul said nothing about drinking a little wine in those passages. I can assure drinking wine has nothing to do with those passages.

Do idol worshipers glorify God? Here Paul says no they don't, they do not worship God.
Dagon fell before the Ark. God plagued them grievously, so did the Philistines glorify God, or did they give God lip service thinking He would lift His hand off them. They did not change their ways afterwards.


God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

1 Samuel 5:7
And when the men of Ashdod saw how it was, they said, “The ark of the God of Israel must not remain with us, for His hand is harsh toward us and Dagon our god.”

Hammster said:

The sheep hear and follow. Goats do not. There's nothing in scripture that indicates that one becomes a sheep.

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Sheep are used as a metaphor many times in scripture. There is nothing in scripture to indicate that Christians have wool that needs shearing, that we make Baaa noises, that we live off grass, etc. When metaphors are used, they need to be restricted to the point Jesus is making - not outside comparisons. We also have to take care not to casually mix symbolism between passages. (Leaven, for example, while often representing sin in scripture and Jewish literature, is used once to refer to the growth in scripture and at least three times in Jewish literature - so it can't be automatically taken to always mean sin.)

In John 10, Jesus gives a sequence of teachings by using analogies about sheep. Not every analogy is the same. It is his points we should look at. Nothing He says here will contradict other scripture, and much of it is clarified by other prophecies and scriptures in the Bible.

Jn 10:1: "Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber."

The first analogy Jesus uses is that of the shepherd vs. robbers. He is pointing out His own, true authority as Shepherd of the flock of God, and that the Pharisees are 'strangers' to the sheep. Not goats in this instance, but humans with nefarious purpose.

Jn 10:1-6
"The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.

In this first analogy, Jesus' point is based around these things:

- Only the man who comes in through the gate is the Shepherd (Jesus comes in through the gate, so is the true Shepherd)
- The sheep will only follow the voice of the Shepherd (The sheep only follow Jesus)
- The sheep will run away from the strangers and robbers who come in another way (The sheep recognize that the pharisees are not the true shepherd)

Jesus then moves into a second analogy:

Jn 10:7-10
"Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full."

In this second analogy, Jesus points out that He *Himself* is the gate, not just the shepherd (leader of the sheep). As the gate, His is the only way to enter the fold and be saved. It is important to note in this analogy that no one 'starts' inside the fold, but that all (including the sheep themselves) must come in through the gate (Christ).

Jesus then continues with a third analogy:
Jn 10:11-14
"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep."

In this analogy, Jesus does not compare the Pharisees to robbers (or goats) or talk about coming in through the gate, but rather compares them in this bit to 'hired hands.' The 'wolf' here is general enemies of Christ, such as false prophets or those who persecute the flock, but to a degreePhariseesisees as well (Matthew 7:15, Matthew 10:16, Luke 10:3). He bases his authority as the shepherd (true leader) of the sheep on His willingness to die for them.

Jesus then builds upon the teachings he has just given to make a new point - that there are more sheep not of 'this fold:'

Jn 10:15-18

"I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

Jesus here moves on not to His authority vs. the Pharisees, but to His death and Ressurection, and the bringing in of Gentile believers.

Recall that at the feast previously, the Jews had asked, "Will He go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?” (John 7:35)

The bringing in of the Gentiles had been foretold in the OT: Isaiah 52, Isa 53, Micah 4:2; etc.

The unifying of Jew and Gentile believers into one flock would be a result of His laying down His life for the sheep.

Jn 11:51-52
"Caiaphas did not say this on his own. Instead, as high priest that year, he was prophesying that Jesus would die for the nation, and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one."


The people of Israel thought they were the true, and only, flock of God by virtue of being part of His chosen people. Yet Jesus' point in the next section is that His true sheep hear his voice. Merely being in the fold of Israel doesn't make one part of the one true flock of God.

Jn 10:24-30:

"The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”

Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe (present active indicative). The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, but you do not believe (present active indicative) because you are not (present indicative) my sheep. My sheep listen (present active indicative) to my voice; I know (present active indicative) them, and they follow me (present active indicative). I give them eternal life (present active indicative), and they shall never perish; no one will snatch (future active indicative) them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them (perfect active indicative) to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch (present active indicative) them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

It is very important to note the verb forms in this section. Disbelief and belief are both treated as ongoing states - not one-time or completed past events, and as other scriptures show amply, those states can be changed (unbelievers come in faith, or those with faith apostatize back to unbelief.) The giving of eternal life is also shown as a present, ongoing state, which fits well with other scripture which shows it is those who believe (actively) that hold (actively) eternal life (Jn 3:16.)

No one (the thieves, robbers, wolves, etc. of the chapter - and in other passages demonic powers or other earthly forces) can snatch the sheep from His hands, present or future.

Note, though, that this verse does not say that the sheep come in by some other way than the gate, that inside the gate is their start point, or that the sheep can never leave on their own. The sheep still have to come in through the gate (Christ) as shown in Jn 10:7-10. It is only those who are within the gate who are the flock and believe (continuously, as it is a present active participle). Those without the gate, who have not come through Christ, refuse to believe. However, there is hope! They can still come through the gate (Christ) in faith, become Christ's sheep, and then follow Him in faith, since their unbelief is only their current, present ongoing state.

Other scripture also sheds light on the meaning of this passage:

Rom 9:6-9 - Not all those who are ethnically descended from Israel are Israel, but only those children of the promise

Rom 6:25-26 - The revelation of Jesus, the Messiah, has made the way of salvation known to every nation

Rom 10: 9-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Rom 10:6-9 is a ref back to Duet 30:11-14.
"Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. ...No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it."

It clarifies that responding in faith is not 'beyond the means' of anyone who hears the gospel. The work of Christ in revealing Himself to us on the cross has made it easy to obtain, not a far-off impossibility.

Yet still, some do not believe.

Jn 5:37-40:
"And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you are not willing (present active indicative) to come to me to have life.


John 10 should not be taken out of context, expecially if to do so would mean contradicting other passages. The analogies Jesus uses show clearly that to become part of His flock, you must first enter by the gate (Himself). Then, your identity as His sheep is known to all because you listen only to Him (an ongoing state) and not to strangers. For other sheep to become part of the one flock, they must also enter through the gate (Christ.) Jesus' identity as the true shepherd is proved by His dying for the flock.

sdowney717 said:

Do idol worshipers glorify God? Here Paul says no they don't, they do not worship God.
Dagon fell before the Ark. God plagued them grievously, so did the Philistines glorify God, or did they give God lip service thinking He would lift His hand off them. They did not change their ways afterwards.

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Does it matter, for the purposes of the question, whether they permanently changed their ways or not? That is moving the goalpost; talking about a completely different issue. Good works don't save, obviously! No amount of good works can change one's life around. Salvation is by faith, not works. That doesn't mean that unbelievers are incapable of any good works whatsoever.

The original contention was that unbelievers could -not- glorify God at all, nor do any single thing that is spiritually good - a position which Scripture clearly refutes (With the midwives, sailors, kings, Philistines, enemies of God bowing the knee, Gentiles acting on the law of God on their hearts, Cornelius, etc. and other passages given in prior posts.)

Likewise, taking passages that speak of a group of men in general or about the overall course of their lives does not discount the passages which speak of individuals doing a unique action that glorifies God. A person can be terribly wicked, yet still do some righteous things in their lives. A person could be predominantly law abiding, but still be a lawbreaker for any point of the law they transgress. (Again, previously posted scripture gets into this in detail.)

As shown in previously posted scripture, some glorified God out of wonder and awe. Some served God from devotion or reverence. Some only glorified Him out of fear. Yet they all are examples of unbelievers either glorifying God or doing some spiritual good which God acknowledges.

Hammster said:

I don't think it's wrong or misleading. I think your conclusion is wrong. We know from scripture that no one in the flesh can please God. It's pretty clear.

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You are conflating two different things.

An action or state of heart that someone does or has can certainly please God. God was pleased that Ahab humbled himself. He blessed the Midwives who feared Him. Cornelius' prayers went up before God as a 'memorial offering.' Etc.

Yet no one can 'gratify God entirely' or be 'well-pleasing' without faith. Heb 11:6 Specifically, that verse is speaking of the inability of anyone to try to come to God without faith, because only 'believing that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him' is well-pleasing to God.

It nowhere contradicts the many passages showing God looking favorably on an action of man, or a person doing something God desires or glorifying God, etc. In none of those cases does God grant them salvation simply for doing something right.

Imagine a condemned criminal standing before a judge for sentencing. The judge might be pleased that the prisoner took some classes on anger management, is penitent, did some community service, etc. But the judge will not be entirely gratified until the sentence is served.

In the case of God, the ultimate judge, unbelievers can certainly obey the law God wrote on their hearts at times, show mercy like the good Samaritan and hence be considered by Christ an example to others, give good gifts to their children, etc. However, they cannot achieve salvation by their own merit, no matter how generally 'good' they are, since any transgression makes them a law breaker. The only way to well-please God so that He grants eternal life is to take on the imputed righteousness of Christ through faith.

Jennifer Rothnie said:

Does it matter, for the purposes of the question, whether they permanently changed their ways or not? That is moving the goalpost; talking about a completely different issue. Good works don't save, obviously! No amount of good works can change one's life around. Salvation is by faith, not works. That doesn't mean that unbelievers are incapable of any good works whatsoever.

The original contention was that unbelievers could -not- glorify God at all, nor do any single thing that is spiritually good - a position which Scripture clearly refutes (With the midwives, sailors, kings, Philistines, enemies of God bowing the knee, Gentiles acting on the law of God on their hearts, Cornelius, etc. and other passages given in prior posts.)

Likewise, taking passages that speak of a group of men in general or about the overall course of their lives does not discount the passages which speak of individuals doing a unique action that glorifies God. A person can be terribly wicked, yet still do some righteous things in their lives. A person could be predominantly law abiding, but still be a lawbreaker for any point of the law they transgress. (Again, previously posted scripture gets into this in detail.)

As shown in previously posted scripture, some glorified God out of wonder and awe. Some served God from devotion or reverence. Some only glorified Him out of fear. Yet they all are examples of unbelievers either glorifying God or doing some spiritual good which God acknowledges.

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Bowing the knee reminds me that all will eventually acknowledge Christ as Lord.
but at that point in hellfire, they are forced believers, but they are not in Christ.
Eventually there will be no unbelievers.

So unbelievers don't glorify Christ, but believers do glorify Christ.
Christ is the true God revealed, God is too generic a word for an unbelieving uncovenanted with the true God society to know Him who made them.
John 1
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.


Philippians 2:9-11New King James Version (NKJV)
9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

JamesFW said:

I believe Paul said this -

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? (Romans 10)

He said nothing of regeneration, nor election, nor predestination, nor being drawn, nor spiritually seeing.

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Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

JamesFW said:

Faith is the internal acknowledgment of truth.

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In something you can't see ...

Hammster said:

Every time (and I mean every time) any discusion where Reformed theology is brought up, some sort of "but man has free will" argument arises, as if the secular humanistic view of free will is some sort of counter argument.

So my question is this. Can the natural man do anything that's spiritually good? Or to ask another way, can the natural man do anything to glorify God?

disclaimer: the questions may br modified if they aren't clear enough

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Hammster said:

Every time (and I mean every time) any discusion where Reformed theology is brought up, some sort of "but man has free will" argument arises, as if the secular humanistic view of free will is some sort of counter argument.

So my question is this. Can the natural man do anything that's spiritually good? Or to ask another way, can the natural man do anything to glorify God?

disclaimer: the questions may br modified if they aren't clear enough

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Hello Hammster,

What good spiritual thing is possible with a natural individual? It is the exercise of his free will in his trust and obedience Almighty God. The major difference between the Biblical believer and the secular man is that the Biblical believer's trust is in infallible God and the secular man's trust is in fallible man as ultimate authority.

ELD

Glorifying God lifelong, and giving God glory at some point, are again two different things.

The original questions were these:

Can the natural man do anything that's spiritually good? Or to ask another way, can the natural man do anything to glorify God?

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These questions are not 'can natural man do everything that is spiritually good,' 'can natural man do only spiritually good,' 'can man achieve salvation by doing something spiritually good,' 'can natural man live his whole life in submission to the glory of God,' 'can natural man glorify God alone,' etc.

Scripture gives ample examples, many already posted, of unbelievers and those without faith doing good things or glorifying God for various motives. The questions are of the form that even one example in scripture of each would show that the answer is 'yes, they can.'


"Then I praised the Most High; I honored and glorified him who lives forever.
His dominion is an eternal dominion;
his kingdom endures from generation to generation.
All the peoples of the earth
are regarded as nothing.
He does as he pleases
with the powers of heaven
and the peoples of the earth.
No one can hold back his hand
or say to him: “What have you done?”....
Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and exalt and glorify the King of heaven, because everything he does is right and all his ways are just. And those who walk in pride he is able to humble." (From Dan 4)

To 'glorify' in scripture is to honor, praise, or otherwise recognize merit or value. How does Nebuchadnezzars public acknowledgment of God's might and justice, and all the other examples given, not meet the definition?

One good exercise to carry out is to study the topic of sheep as used in Scripture.

First of all, I'm going to propose that sheep are not always sheep.

If you note in the Exodus incident, when deprived of food and water, ALL Israel panicked, complained, murmured.

However as God continued to repeat the cycle of placing and then extracting Israel out of dangerous situations, a few of Israel's adults began to remain faithful to God.

This is not a new pattern, we see the same cycles occurring in the lives of other heroes of faith, notably Abraham, who finally threw in his lot with God without reservation, abandoning efforts to protect himself and his own, believing God could give him back his son even from the dead.

I propose that these who evolved from scaredycats to loyal sheep are the sheep who know Jesus's voice, because His ways are the ways of the Father.

Did Simon Magus abandon self dependency? Nope. Did Ananias and Sapphira abandon self dependency? A resounding No!

Did Peter abandon self dependency?

Finally, yes:

Mark 10:26They were even more astonished and said to Him, “Then who can be saved?” 27Looking at them, Jesus said, “With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.”
28Peter began to say to Him, “Behold, we have left everything and followed You.” 29Jesus said, “Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or farms, for My sake and for the gospel’s sake, 30but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.

effalo said:

Hello Hammster,

What good spiritual thing is possible with a natural individual? It is the exercise of his free will in his trust and obedience Almighty God. The major difference between the Biblical believer and the secular man is that the Biblical believer's trust is in infallible God and the secular man's trust is in fallible man as ultimate authority.

ELD

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Not always when we consider Grace =unmerited favor and faith not works in Gods Grace brings us to salvation.
At some point we all were sinners ,and at the point of God's Grace
We believed.