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The Paradox of Calvinism and Arminianism (An Opinion)
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Oldmantook
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I think your conclusion regarding the Heb 6 passage that they cannot be won again to repentance may be inaccurate. The key to understanding this passage is to note and pay attention to the verb tenses. In verse 6, the Greek verb tenses in this verse are in the present tense which indicate ongoing action. Thus these people are still engaging in "crucifying" and publically "shaming" Christ. They cannot be won again to Christ because their very actions which they continue to exhibit in public, obviously demonstrate that there is no repentance among them. IF however, they were to cease in their behaviors of crucifying and shaming Christ and truly repent, then forgiveness would still be possible.
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The context of Hebrews 6, begins in Hebrews 3, where the writer is warning these Hebrew Christians not to depart from Christ, because of persecution from unbelieving Jews.
This understanding comes from Jesus, in His teaching from the parable of the sower, in which Jesus teaches His disciples about the need to continue to believe, even under persecution, and not depart from Him.
13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 6 is about those who have departed from Christ, under persecution and returned to the religion of Judaism, which rejects Jesus as Messiah.
Once a person renounces Christ, and departs from Him, to save their life, then they will lose their life, because their is no other sacrifice for sins, since they have put Him to an open shame, having become a partaker of the Holy Spirit, then turned back to the dead religion from which they were rescued, they are now severed from Christ, having fallen from Grace.
You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4
JLB
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Oldmantook
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Indeed one can fall away and apostatize. However, if you believe that a person who no longer believes cannot repent and return to the faith you would be making an argument from silence since the Bible makes no such claims. An argument from silence is one of the weakest forms of argumentation.
To arrive at your conclusion you have to completely ignore the immediate context of what Heb 6:6 states. It states that it is impossible to renew them to repentance SINCE or BECAUSE they are crucifying (ongoing sin) and shaming (ongoing sin) Christ. Ongoing sin is not forgivable as long as the person is still engaged in it as it demonstrates that the person has not repented.
If renouncing one's faith is not forgivable then Jesus was wrong to forgive Peter when he denied knowing Jesus, the Father was wrong to forgive the prodigal son when he strayed into a lifestyle of sin and James was wrong to write: "My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins" (Js 5:19-20). James taught that if a believer strays away from the truth but is brought back, that person can be forgiven as his soul escapes spiritual death.
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Turning away from Christ; Departing from Him, while under persecution, specifically turning back to Judaism, which is renouncing Jesus as Messiah, is the context.
Judaism claims Jesus is a false prophet, which means he is a false messiah.
11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:11-13
- who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away
18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Matthew 13:18-21
- but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Believe/endure is the condition for salvation.
Those who believe are saved.
Verse 12 teaches this key and is certainly "not silent".
- Believe/endure = Saved
- Believe/endure for a while = Saved for a while.
If you have a scripture that teaches us believing is not required for salvation, then please post it for us to examine.
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:9-14
- But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
There is either understanding this or not.
But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”
The key to bringing the message of the kingdom to fruition in our life is understanding.
Those who understand that believing and enduring to the end is the condition to being saved, will do so with patience.
- Those who believe for a while, then return to unbelieving, are no longer believers.
7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:7-8
If you have a scripture that teaches us those who are unbelieving are still somehow saved, then please post it for us to examine.
JLB
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I see you misunderstand what is being taught.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6
The context of "they crucify again" is they are trying renew their repentance they once had before they defected, which the verse plainly says can not be done.
if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
It's impossible to renew them to repentance again.
I know you can read and understand that.
It's impossible to renew them again to repentance.
JLB
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GillDouglas
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I believe it does come down to truly believing and trusting in the sovereignty of God. You may not be a Calvinist at all if you believe that a creature can act/work beyond his power and outside of his nature. You may not be a Calvinist at all if you believe that the One who created all things, who gives power to His creation, and sustains everything; that whatsoever He has ordained, may or may not happen.
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Oldmantook
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I can read and certainly can you so reread the verse again; highlighted for your understanding - if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Since means "because." The Greek words for "crucify" and "shame" are both present tense verbs so it is impossible to renew them them to repentance because they are still "crucifying" and publically "shaming" Christ. The fact is, it is impossible to renew anyone to repentance because/since they are still sinning/shaming Christ. Anyone still engaged in sin obviously demonstrates that they are in no way repentant since they continue in sin and hence the granting of sin is not a possibility.
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Oldmantook
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Not sure of how you arrived at your conclusions based upon I wrote. I believe that belief is required for salvation and believers can only believe for a while. They may be saved for that period of time but if they no longer continue in belief, then they are no longer saved. You in turn have not explained how Peter could be forgiven for denying Jesus, how the Father could forgive the prodigal for living in sin, how James explained that a sinning brother's soul can be saved from spiritual death. In these examples the answer is repentance, turning away from sin and back to the Father.
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Marvin Knox
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I don't believe it is. I believe your ideas (which follow) are inaccurate and I'll tell you why as I continue.
Paul is the absolute epitome of a Jew who was not only rejecting the Messiah. He was also "crucifying" and "shaming" Christ's church (His body here on earth) literally and with a vengeance.
And yet - he was brought to repentance solely by the grace of God and due in no part to his own attitude or actions. This kind of overwhelming grace is new everyday for His elect.
Repentance is a gift granted by God tor His elect.
One does not receive saving grace because of their turning from sin. One receives saving grace and then they turn from their sins as a result of that grace which has been shed abroad in their heart.
Almost without doubt you will disagree with me on many levels. We aren't likely to iron that out here - I know from experience.
But I believe mine is the proper theology concerning not only initial salvation and it's mechanism of application. I also believe mine is the proper theology concerning how God keeps His elect who are sealed by the Spirit of God against the day of judgment.
I don't believe that those who have passed from death to life will ever again come into condemnation. In fact, I have that on pretty good authority.
I don't mean this in any mean spirited way - but I do believe that you have a fundamentally flawed view of grace. You aren't alone of course. You are in a great company who believe the same as you do.
None the less it is true IMO and I believe I have the mind of Christ on this matter.
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- Peter returned to the Lord, and was forgiven.
- Judas didn't return to the lord, but hung himself.
The father forgave the lost son, because he returned in repentance and humility, as was no longer lost.
James explained how we can turn a brother who has wandered from the truth, and become lost, back to the truth, and save his soul from death.
JLB
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Yes, the crucifying is present tense since the person is wanting to repent and return but can not, since they have already repented once, then renounced their Savior.
JLB
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fhansen
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The following is a teaching I'm familiar with. Man cannot say "yes" without grace, and yet he can still always say "no".
1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:
When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42
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Oldmantook
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What you say about Paul is true however it is not relevant to the passage as Paul is not describing himself in the past; rather he is describing others who are currently crucifying and shaming Christ. The plain meaning of the passage is that since they are still engaging in this type of sinful behavior, no forgiveness is possible since it is quite obvious that no forgiveness is being sought.
I do appreciate the cordial tenor of your response and we can always agree to amicably disagree. However let me ask you this. You stated that you don't believe that "those who have passed from death to life will ever again come into condemnation." I will assume for the sake of argument that you will state unequivocally that you are a regenerate believer who has passed from death to life. Thus given your salvific status, if you took the mark of the beast, you would still possess eternal life since you cannot come under condemnation again, correct?
You can answer by stating that you would never do such a thing, but no one can say what they would do in the future with 100% absolute certainty since we don't have crystal balls. The best we can say is that we hope that we would persevere and remain faithful to God under such persecution. However, even if you did take the mark given your theology you would still be eternally secure. Either that, or it would mean that you were never a believer a believer in the first place.
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Oldmantook
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If they are wanting to repent as you assert, why are they still engaging in sinful behavior by crucifying/shaming Christ? When one truly desires to repent, one seeks to stop engaging in sin, turn around and seek the Father's forgiveness. Since Paul describes these people as still crucifying/shaming Christ, it is evident that they are not wanting to repent and return.
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For it is impossible... to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6
The "renew" them to repentance again.
Repent is how we are saved.
Once these have renounced Jesus Christ, after having been born again and are partakers of His spirit, they can not "repent again" since they have already done that, and renounced Him in the face of persecution, having gone back to the law and Judaism.
They are severed from Christ, with no way to be renewed unto repentance.
JLB
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If they are turning back to the law....
When Jesus has fullfilled it. Then there is no repentance under the Law. Those sacrifices were for what was to come (Jesus)
But there is repentance under the new system which is not cursed. And that is Faith in Jesus Christ.
I believe the writer of Hebrews expressed History of such people who were under direct authority of God. They may have died without Mercy...simply because they rejected God.
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