Does God Love Everyone, "Unconditionally"?

Wordkeeper · Jul 3, 2017

Hammster said:
It's not random because God doesn't do random.

“also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1:11‬ ‭NASB‬‬

This is what we know. We can speculate until the cows come home. But God doesn't give us any other reasons.

On what basis do you think He chooses?

If God does not do random, why does Reformed Theology teach Unconditional Election?

God chooses those who persist, on abandoning Egypt /mammon/world/living for self, to living to serve God and our brothers.

Predestined is the plan, the design, the esired result, we are predestined to be like Christ.

Hammster · Jul 3, 2017

Wordkeeper said:
If God does not do random, why does Reformed Theology teach Unconditional Election?

God chooses those who persist, on abandoning Egypt /mammon/world/living for self, to living to serve God and our brothers.

Predestined is the plan, the design, the esired result, we are predestined to be like Christ.

I'm pretty sure I gave scripture.

Hammster · Jul 3, 2017

Wordkeeper said:
God chooses those who persist, on abandoning Egypt /mammon/world/living for self, to living to serve God and our brothers.

Predestined is the plan, the design, the esired result, we are predestined to be like Christ.

So in your view, God chooses those who do good.

Wordkeeper · Jul 3, 2017

Hammster said:
So in your view, God chooses those who do good.

So in your view, God chooses before a person does good or evil, that is arbitrarily, without specified reason.

Wordkeeper · Jul 3, 2017

sdowney717 said:
That is correct, there is a reason, but it is one of God's secret things as to why He chose to love some with a great love and make them alive in Christ.

Paul's example points this out, that were following after Satan and fulfilling the lust of the flesh, when God arrested us to become slaves of righteousness by making us alive in Him.

Another example,
Titus 3
3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

In logic this is called "Contradiction". If a worldview has too many "secrets" and "mysteries" we should start questioning its teachings, especially if they describe what God "does":

Contradiction
1. He chooses without reason.
2. There is a reason, but its a secret.

The reason for not being marked, foreknown, chosen, revealed:

1 Corinthians 10:6Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.” 8Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. 9Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. 10Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Romans 15:4For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

Hammster · Jul 3, 2017

Wordkeeper said:
So in your view, God chooses before a person does good or evil, that is arbitrarily, without specified reason.

I gave the reason.

Hammster · Jul 3, 2017

Wordkeeper said:
In logic this is called "Contradiction". If a worldview has too many "secrets" and "mysteries" we should start questioning its teachings, especially if they describe what God "does":

Contradiction
1. He chooses without reason.
2. There is a reason, but its a secret.

The reason for not being marked, foreknown, chosen, revealed:

1 Corinthians 10:6Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.” 8Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. 9Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. 10Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Romans 15:4For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

Written to the redeemed.

jimmyjimmy · Jul 3, 2017

Hammster said:
So in your view, God chooses those who do good.

At the end of the day, that is what the Arminian and Pelagian positions inescapably conclude. Some admit it, and others understand the problem created by such an admission, but in either case, there is no escaping the conclusion.

jimmyjimmy · Jul 3, 2017

Hammster said:
Written to the redeemed.

Amen.

Wordkeeper · Jul 3, 2017

Hammster said:
It's not random because God doesn't do random.

“also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1:11‬ ‭NASB‬‬

This is what we know. We can speculate until the cows come home. But God doesn't give us any other reasons.

On what basis do you think He chooses?

God chooses a person because he was "predestined".

Translation
God chooses a person because he was "chosen".

You believe this because it was repeated so often, that you forgot to question what it actually means.

Wordkeeper · Jul 3, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
At the end of the day, that is what the Arminian and Pelagian positions inescapably conclude. Some admit it, and others understand the problem created by such an admission, but in either case, there is no escaping the conclusion.

Problem, what problem?

jimmyjimmy · Jul 3, 2017

Wordkeeper said:
Problem, what problem?

You don't understand the problem(s) with the idea that God chooses only "good" people?

Wordkeeper · Jul 3, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
You don't understand the problem(s) with the idea that God chooses only "good" people?

Nope, enlighten me, please.

jimmyjimmy · Jul 3, 2017

Wordkeeper said:
Nope, enlighten me, please.

May I ask which "faith group" you belong to?

Wordkeeper · Jul 3, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
May I ask which "faith group" you belong to?

No ones created a label for us, New Perspective, a group interpreting the Bible using historical documentation being the closest, I suppose.

jimmyjimmy · Jul 3, 2017

Wordkeeper said:
No ones created a label for us, New Perspective, a group interpreting the Bible using historical documentation being the closest, I suppose.

Thanks. I wanted to see what your starting presuppositions were.

From a Christian perspective, there are a few problems with the idea that God only choosing, "good" people. The first blatantly obvious one is that Christ can't save a, "good" person. He came for sinners.

When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” (Matthew 9:11-13)

Wordkeeper · Jul 3, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
Thanks. I wanted to see what your starting presuppositions were.

From a Christian perspective, there are a few problems with the idea that God only choosing, "good" people. The first blatantly obvious one is that Christ can't save a, "good" person. He came for sinners.

When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” (Matthew 9:11-13)

Well the good persons are the ones who see the way of the world is not the right way and turn to God, who gives them to Christ, who will in no ways turn them away:

Acts 17:26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’

Luke 18:13“But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14“I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

jimmyjimmy · Jul 3, 2017

Wordkeeper said:
Well the good persons are the ones who see the way of the world is not the right way and turn to God, who gives them to Christ, who will in no ways turn them away:

Acts 17:26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’

Luke 18:13“But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14“I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

The second problem with the idea that God only chooses, "good" people is that they are no good people.

Hammster · Jul 3, 2017

Wordkeeper said:
God chooses a person because he was "predestined".

Translation
God chooses a person because he was "chosen".

You believe this because it was repeated so often, that you forgot to question what it actually means.

God doesn't choose because they were predestined. I'm not sure where you keep coming up with stuff. Is there a book on Straw Man Arguments to Defeat Calvinism?

Hammster · Jul 3, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
The second problem with the idea that God only chooses, "good" people is that they are none.

That's probably the first.

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