Universalism...why not?
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And an editorial concerning that 'book' said; "I do not doubt the integrity of the four authors. BUT the differences in interpretation highlights the fact that SOMETHING other than "reading the Bible" is involved....we all bring our family prejudices, our personal histories, and our habits of thought into our reading of the Scriptures. Just as we cannot hear our own accents, we cannot readily see our own assumptions...assumptions which apply to what we see and how we "see" in the plain teaching of the Bible." (BOLD is mine)
Hence, your non agreeing NDE's. As well as orthodoxies belief which also were inherited from those "prejudices, histories, habits of thought" of centuries ago...after UR was crushed...almost to death by the 'spiritually weak' and 'politically empowered' church.
And I have never heard two of the NDE descriptions, of heaven or hell, that were ever 'the same'. As 'real places', shouldn't they be? Or did all these people really just experience something spiritual but also mixed in with their own pre-indoctrinated soulish minds?
Jesus himself said someone coming back from the dead wouldn't convince people of the truth. I guess your exegesis rules over that of Jesus teaching. The NDE's apparently have convinced you enough to post it as such, anyway.
I guess I'll just continue to believe the words of Jesus.LUK 16:31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.'
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If you choose to participate in a discussion with me please extend me the common courtesy of reading my posts and responding to each point with your own words. If you cannot do that, I will not read and will not respond to the same old copy/pastes.
.....Here is the only definitive statement on the meaning of αἰώνιος/aionios in the NT that I am aware of. Paul does not merely use the word aionios and expect the reader to understand or guess at what he means but three times he contrasts aionios with; first momentary, second temporal and third eternal home in heaven contrasted with earthly house which can be destroyed, demolished.
2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, [παραυτίκα] worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal [πρόσκαιρος]; but the things which are not seen are eternal.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
Definiton of the words translated "moment" and "temporal."(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, [παραυτίκα] worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal [πρόσκαιρος]; but the things which are not seen are eternal.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
παραυτίκα parautika
From G3844 and a derivative of G846; at the very instant, that is, momentary: - but for a moment.
πρόσκαιρος proskairos
From G4314 and G2540; for the occasion only, that is, temporary: - dur- [eth] for awhile, endure for a time, for a season, temporal.
.....Here is a proper way to cite early church fathers. Noto bene, name of writing, book number, chapter number and section number. Origen must have thought Paul's words in 2 Cor 4:17-18 and 5:1 were important because he quotes them not once but four times.
From G3844 and a derivative of G846; at the very instant, that is, momentary: - but for a moment.
πρόσκαιρος proskairos
From G4314 and G2540; for the occasion only, that is, temporary: - dur- [eth] for awhile, endure for a time, for a season, temporal.
.....Here is a proper way to cite early church fathers. Noto bene, name of writing, book number, chapter number and section number. Origen must have thought Paul's words in 2 Cor 4:17-18 and 5:1 were important because he quotes them not once but four times.
Origen De Principiis. Book I. Chap. VI
3.But whether any of these orders who act under the government of the devil, and obey his wicked commands, will in a future world be converted to righteousness because of their possessing the faculty of freedom of will, or whether persistent and inveterate wickedness may be changed by the power of habit into nature, is a result which you yourself, reader, may approve of, if neither in these present worlds which are seen and temporal, nor in those which are unseen and are eternal, that portion is to differ wholly from the final unity and fitness of things. But in the meantime, both in those temporal worlds which are seen,
De Principiis. Book II. Chap. III
6. We must see, moreover, lest perhaps it is with reference to this that the apostle says, “While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are unseen are eternal. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.” (2 Corinthians 4:18-5:1) And when he says elsewhere, “Because I shall see the heavens, the works of Thy fingers,” (Psa_8:3) and when God said, regarding all things visible, by the mouth of His prophet, “My hand has formed all these things,” (Isa_66:2) He declares that that eternal house in the heavens which He promises to His saints was not made with hands, pointing out, doubtless, the difference of creation in things which are seen and in those which are not seen.
De Principiis. Book III chap. VI
4.Since, then, those things “which are seen are temporal, but those things which are not seen are eternal, ” all those bodies which we see either on earth or in heaven, and which are capable of being seen, and have been made with hands, but are not eternal, are far excelled in glory by that which is not visible, nor made with hands, but is eternal.
De Principiis. Book IV. Chap. I.
25. Thy shadow we shall live among the nations;” (Lam_4:20) at the time, viz., when He will more worthily transfer all the saints from a temporal to an everlasting Gospel, according to the designation, employed by John in the Apocalypse, of “an everlasting Gospel.” (Cf. Rev_14:6)
Origen Against Celsus. Book VI. Chap. XIX
Our Paul, moreover, educated by these words, and longing after things “supra-mundane” and “super-celestial,” and doing his utmost for their sake to attain them, says in the second Epistle to the Corinthians: “For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are unseen are eternal. ”
De Principiis. Book III. Chap. VI
8.From which it appears to me, that as on this earth the law was a sort of schoolmaster to those who by it were to he conducted to Christ, in order that, being instructed and trained by it, they might more easily, after the training of the law, receive the more perfect principles of Christ; so also another earth, which receives into it all the saints, may first imbue and mould them by the institutions of the true and everlasting law, that they may more easily gain possession of those perfect institutions of heaven, to which nothing can be added; in which there will be, of a truth, that Gospel which is called everlasting, and that Testament, ever new, which shall never grow old.
De Principiis. Book III. Chap. I.
13.For God deals with souls not merely with a view to the short space of our present life, included within sixty years or more, but with reference to a perpetual and never-ending period, exercising His providential care over souls that are immortal, even as He Himself is eternal and immortal.
.....In 2 Cor 4:7-8 Paul tells us the meaning of aionios
With the meaning of "ainios" clearly established by Paul and reiterated by Origen more than once as 'eternal,""unending,""everlasting". What is the correct interpretation of "aionios" in Matt 25:46?3.But whether any of these orders who act under the government of the devil, and obey his wicked commands, will in a future world be converted to righteousness because of their possessing the faculty of freedom of will, or whether persistent and inveterate wickedness may be changed by the power of habit into nature, is a result which you yourself, reader, may approve of, if neither in these present worlds which are seen and temporal, nor in those which are unseen and are eternal, that portion is to differ wholly from the final unity and fitness of things. But in the meantime, both in those temporal worlds which are seen,
De Principiis. Book II. Chap. III
6. We must see, moreover, lest perhaps it is with reference to this that the apostle says, “While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are unseen are eternal. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.” (2 Corinthians 4:18-5:1) And when he says elsewhere, “Because I shall see the heavens, the works of Thy fingers,” (Psa_8:3) and when God said, regarding all things visible, by the mouth of His prophet, “My hand has formed all these things,” (Isa_66:2) He declares that that eternal house in the heavens which He promises to His saints was not made with hands, pointing out, doubtless, the difference of creation in things which are seen and in those which are not seen.
De Principiis. Book III chap. VI
4.Since, then, those things “which are seen are temporal, but those things which are not seen are eternal, ” all those bodies which we see either on earth or in heaven, and which are capable of being seen, and have been made with hands, but are not eternal, are far excelled in glory by that which is not visible, nor made with hands, but is eternal.
De Principiis. Book IV. Chap. I.
25. Thy shadow we shall live among the nations;” (Lam_4:20) at the time, viz., when He will more worthily transfer all the saints from a temporal to an everlasting Gospel, according to the designation, employed by John in the Apocalypse, of “an everlasting Gospel.” (Cf. Rev_14:6)
Origen Against Celsus. Book VI. Chap. XIX
Our Paul, moreover, educated by these words, and longing after things “supra-mundane” and “super-celestial,” and doing his utmost for their sake to attain them, says in the second Epistle to the Corinthians: “For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are unseen are eternal. ”
De Principiis. Book III. Chap. VI
8.From which it appears to me, that as on this earth the law was a sort of schoolmaster to those who by it were to he conducted to Christ, in order that, being instructed and trained by it, they might more easily, after the training of the law, receive the more perfect principles of Christ; so also another earth, which receives into it all the saints, may first imbue and mould them by the institutions of the true and everlasting law, that they may more easily gain possession of those perfect institutions of heaven, to which nothing can be added; in which there will be, of a truth, that Gospel which is called everlasting, and that Testament, ever new, which shall never grow old.
De Principiis. Book III. Chap. I.
13.For God deals with souls not merely with a view to the short space of our present life, included within sixty years or more, but with reference to a perpetual and never-ending period, exercising His providential care over souls that are immortal, even as He Himself is eternal and immortal.
.....In 2 Cor 4:7-8 Paul tells us the meaning of aionios
Matthew 25:46
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionos] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionos] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
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That is correct Here is what you posted "the antichrist sword ruling harlot of Babylon" That statement fits the definition to a "T."
What does this have to do with "history?" If correct this would fall in the category of current events.
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There is no rule that requires anyone to respond to each and every point another person posts.
I responded to a scripture passage you posted with my own words and some quotes.
If you don't want to discuss the passage, that is up to you. It works fine for me.
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Even your own touted highly venerated 9 sources admit the word is used of duration that is finite and ends in the NT. To say nothing of all the OT and extrabiblical contexts where aionios is used of finite duration. Likewise with the noun aion and the corresponding Hebrew OT word olam. Compare Daniel 12:2, for example:
The context supports the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), while v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM "and further".
2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."
(Dan.12:2-3, CLOT)
The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Daniel 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Daniel 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 should both be understood as being of finite duration.
Compare v.3:
l·oulm u·od
for·eon and·futurity
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan12.pdf
OJB Hashem shall reign l’olam va’ed.
Yahweh shall rule to the eon and beyond (Exo 15:18)
Universal Version Bible The Torah By William Petr
Habbukah 3:6:
JPS Tanakh 1917
He standeth, and shaketh the earth, He beholdeth, and maketh the nations to tremble; And the everlasting[olam] mountains are dashed in pieces, The ancient[olam] hills do bow; His goings are as of old[olam].
Young's Literal Translation
He hath stood, and He measureth earth, He hath seen, and He shaketh off nations, And scatter themselves do mountains of antiquity, Bowed have the hills of old, The ways of old are His.
CLV
He stands and is measuring the earth; he sees and is letting loose the nations. And the mountain ranges of futurity are scattering; the eonian hills bow down; his goings are eonian.
Daniel 12:2:
Young's Literal Translation
'And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life
age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during. (Dan.12:2)
Rotherham
and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-
abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence; (Dan.12:2)
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
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You said "the two concepts are NOT contradictory."
How do you reconcile your interpretation of Dan.12:2 speaking of "everlasting shame" with:
Rev.21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
BTW Daniel 12:2 doesn't speak of "everlasting shame".
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There was no ad hominen:
"marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made"
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Dartman
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I have no obligation to explain why YOU think there is a contradiction.
Granted.ClementofA said:
So, you agree Dan 12:2 proves there are those who are NOT resurrected to life, but they ARE resurrected to "everlasting contempt"? There will be endless CONTEMPT for them?
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Do you seriously think all this fol-der-rol invalidates, disproves Holy scripture as recorded in the words of Paul that I quoted? Do you know what "hyperbole" means.
Genesis 49:14
(14) "Issachar is a strong donkey, crouching between the sheepfolds.
Was Issachar literally a strong donkey? Or is this hyperbole?(14) "Issachar is a strong donkey, crouching between the sheepfolds.
Genesis 49:9
(9) Judah is a lion's cub; from the prey, my son, you have gone up. He stooped down; he crouched as a lion and as a lioness; who dares rouse him?
Was Judah literally a lion's cub? Or is this hyperbole?(9) Judah is a lion's cub; from the prey, my son, you have gone up. He stooped down; he crouched as a lion and as a lioness; who dares rouse him?
Genesis 49:17
(17) Dan shall be a serpent in the way, a viper by the path, that bites the horse's heels so that his rider falls backward.
Was Dan literally a serpent or a viper? Or is this hyperbole? (17) Dan shall be a serpent in the way, a viper by the path, that bites the horse's heels so that his rider falls backward.
Genesis 49:21
(21) "Naphtali is a doe let loose that bears beautiful fawns.
Was Naphthali literally a doe? Or is this hyperbole?(21) "Naphtali is a doe let loose that bears beautiful fawns.
Genesis 49:22
(22) "Joseph is a fruitful bough, a fruitful bough by a spring; his branches run over the wall.
Was Joseph literally a fruitful bough? Or is this hyperbole?(22) "Joseph is a fruitful bough, a fruitful bough by a spring; his branches run over the wall.
Genesis 49:27
(27) "Benjamin is a ravenous wolf, in the morning devouring the prey and at evening dividing the spoil."
Was Benjamin literally a ravenous wolf? Or is that hyperbole?(27) "Benjamin is a ravenous wolf, in the morning devouring the prey and at evening dividing the spoil."
Luke 13:32
(32) And he said to them, "Go and tell that fox, 'Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I finish my course.
Was Herod literally a fox? Or is that hyperbole(32) And he said to them, "Go and tell that fox, 'Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I finish my course.
Mark 8:33
(33) But turning and seeing his disciples, he rebuked Peter and said, "Get behind me, Satan! For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man."
Was Peter literally Satan? Or is that hyperbole? (33) But turning and seeing his disciples, he rebuked Peter and said, "Get behind me, Satan! For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man."
Matthew 16:18
(18) And I tell you, you are Peter, [stone] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Was Peter literally a stone? Or is that hyperbole(18) And I tell you, you are Peter, [stone] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mark 3:17
(17) James the son of Zebedee and John the brother of James (to whom he gave the name Boanerges, that is, Sons of Thunder);
Were James and John literally offspring of thunder? Or is that hyperbole?(17) James the son of Zebedee and John the brother of James (to whom he gave the name Boanerges, that is, Sons of Thunder);
More examples of hyperbole in the Bible.
“You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.” Matthew. 23:24
“If thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out…” Matthew 5:29
“If any man come to me and hate not his father and mother…” Luke 14:26
Behold, the world is gone after him.” John 12:19
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shall be brought to hell (Hades/sheol).” Matthew 11:23
"The rock poured me out rivers of oil.” Job 29:6
“The cities are great, and walled up to heaven.” Deuteronomy. 1:28
Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God."Matthew 19:24
Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Matthew 7:3
“Everyone could sling stones at a hair and not miss.” Judges 20:16
“If thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out…” Matthew 5:29
“If any man come to me and hate not his father and mother…” Luke 14:26
Behold, the world is gone after him.” John 12:19
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shall be brought to hell (Hades/sheol).” Matthew 11:23
"The rock poured me out rivers of oil.” Job 29:6
“The cities are great, and walled up to heaven.” Deuteronomy. 1:28
Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God."Matthew 19:24
Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Matthew 7:3
“Everyone could sling stones at a hair and not miss.” Judges 20:16
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Dartman
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that's too bad, because your conclusions are in error.
The "age -enduring" results of the resurrection destroys your theory.
Jesus' comments in John 5:28-30 doubly destroy your theory.
The detailed description of both resurrections in Rev 20 thrice destroys your theory.
Your attempts to isolate and neutralize these texts has failed.
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How would Scripture disprove Scripture?
Your own highly touted sources disagree with you. As well as many other learned ones.
When Jesus says "end of the aion" did He mean end of eternity? End of forever? Aions end in the scriptures. It's not hyperbolic.
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
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Selectively quoting several "scholars," some out-of-context is not quoting scripture. I relied solely on scripture when I quoted Paul in 2 Corinthians 4:17-18 and 2 Corinthians 5:1. And you have not yet addressed those verses. You are trying to prove Paul wrong by quoting these "scholars."
No they do not!
Prove to me that it is not hyperbolic? As I have shown Jesus used hyperbole several times. See my [post #1373] above.
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Strawman argument fallacy. I referred to Scripture:
"Even your own touted highly venerated 9 sources admit the word is used of duration that is finite and ends in the NT. To say nothing of all the OT and extrabiblical contexts where aionios is used of finite duration. Likewise with the noun aion and the corresponding Hebrew OT word olam."
Another strawman argument. I never said or implied in any way that Paul was wrong. How could he be. His words are inspired scripture. What i said was:
""Even your own touted highly venerated 9 sources admit the word is used of duration that is finite and ends in the NT. To say nothing of all the OT and extrabiblical contexts where aionios is used of finite duration. Likewise with the noun aion and the corresponding Hebrew OT word olam."
End of eternity is ridiculous nonsense. When Jesus says "end of the aion" (Mt.28:20) did He mean end of eternity? End of forever? Aions end in the scriptures. It's not hyperbolic.
Do you think aion means forever here: "Not only in this AION but also in that which is to come (Ep. 1:21)." Then it would read: "Not only in this forever but also in that which is to come (Ep. 1:21). That would be ridiculous. Aion in Eph.1:21 is a finite time period that ends. It's not hyperbolic.
For more examples, see pages 23-24 at:
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Your hyperbolic theory is weak. If the theory of endless torments relied on this, it would be very weak. Surely if Jesus taught something so horrible as never ceasing sufferings in fire He would have made this His main message & made it very clear. But you'ld rather discuss your hyperbolic theory instead of key texts such as My.25:46 which i posted lengthy comments on.
If Christ meant "endless" punishment at Mt.25:46, why use the ambiguous aionios? Why not instead use the word aperantos ("endless"; 1 Timothy 1:4)?
Or why not use the words "no end" as in Lk1:33b: "And of His kingdom there will be no end"? The answer seems obvious.
Why not come back when you can prove aion, aionios or olam are ever used, even once, in hyperbole in the Scriptures. IOW, never.
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