things God said because people didn't want the truth

Strong in Him

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I did not say God made mistakes.

you think later people somehow become much better/can handle anything/wanting to know the truth about anything?.

No, I'm saying that we don't understand everything all at once - we grow, and learn.
Were you taught Shakespeare when you were two, or were you first taught to read?
Were you straight away taught about fractions, trigonometry and %s, or did you first have to learn to count to 10?

It's the same spiritually. We learn the basics of our faith, and then go deeper as we grow in faith and understanding.
Paul said this; he had to give the Corinthian Christians milk, because they were not ready for solid food, 1 Corinthians 3:2. The writer of Hebrews also tells his readers to lay aside elementary teachings about Christ, and go on to maturity, Hebrews 6:1-3.

You did say that God sometimes says something wrong because he knows people will not be able to handle the truth. That implies that either God lies and is trying to deceive us, or that he is telling us what we want to hear, or that he is watering down the truth. If God tells us falsehoods and lies, he either does so by mistake, or because he is deceiving us.
I don't believe either to be true.
 
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Strong in Him

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if you read genesis as a history book.
then it says the world is a few thousands years old.
beacause if you connect the ages from the beginning till the end, you get a few thousend years.
but I don't do that.

If you read it literally and make certain assumptions; maybe.
I don't do that.
 
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noam burde

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Paul was not a prophet and not called to prophesy.
Prophecy is not spiritual fortune telling.



No.
But if you believe that it does, and that Paul, and the early church, are false; presumably you don't trust , anything that they write or teach?



No.
The early church believed that Jesus would return in their lifetime, but they didn't say, "this is a prophecy; the Lord will return in this year/month".



They said, "soon" because they believed that it might be in their lifetime.
But also, God is outside time, so when he says "soon", it could be 1,000,000 years in our time.



People have been waiting for the second coming ever since the ascension; we've been in the last days for centuries.



This isn't a prophecy; Paul believed that the Lord would return in his lifetime.
He was wrong, but as Jesus said that no one knows the day or hour, that isn't surprising. What would have made him a false prophet would have been if he'd said, "the Lord is coming on ....... day; guaranteed, and this is what will happen."



John said it was the last hour. Obviously he didn't mean that literally; he wrote 3 more chapters of that letter, 2 other letters and Revelation, which would have all taken far more than an hour to write.
Either he meant "the last days", because he thought Jesus was about to return, or he meant "the last days before persecution". Or maybe he meant that they were in the final stages of the end of the world. We have had creation, the fall, salvation through Jesus, the Gospel of the kingdom being preached, and we are now waiting for the final chapter; Jesus' return. On God's "clock", we ARE in the last hour; because he is outside time, though, that "hour" could last a couple of centuries.



Revelation is the Revelation of Jesus, which was given to John. It is from the Lord, not the apostle.
There is a difference between God saying, "I am coming soon", and an apostle saying, "the Lord IS returning on ..... day" - not that any of the apostles said that anyway.

I think the mistake many of us make is that we look at Scripture, see the word "soon", and think "that must mean, "soon, according to our time, and our understanding of the word." It doesn't.
you just say "no" and things that don't make sense.
so I will have to ignore you. sorry.
 
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Strong in Him

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you just say "no" and things that don't make sense.
so I will have to ignore you. sorry.

I say "no", because I don't agree with what you are saying, and believe it to be incorrect.
If you like, I can try to explain the things I write that don't make sense, and we can continue a conversation. But if you don't want to, or find it easier to ignore me; so be it.
 
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HeLeadethMe

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paul and his successors failed to make even 1 clear genuine prophecy (not repeating previous prophecy) that came true.
they did make many that failed.
unlike the true prophets before them that made more then 100 clear supernatural prophesies that we know for a fact actually came true. and not 1 failed prophecy...
that makes paul and some of his successors false prophets (matthew 7:15-19).
like for example paul and his successors prophesied that some people living in those times will still be alive in the second coming. which will happen in a short time/soon. they are obviously dead. and the world still exist. so that failed.
it also obviously doesn't make sense that god would finish the world before anyone even received his teachings.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
1 John 2:18
Revelation 1:1 + Revelation 22:20

also they predicted that in a short time the devil will be jailed for a 1000 years. and Christ will rule for a 1000 years.
Revelation 1:1 and Revelation 20

that also didn't happen. not in short or even long time...
and we are in the last days.
because prophecies of actual prophets regarding the last days already came true (jesus, ezikiel, Isaiah). so this means we are in the last years of the history of this world.
so there is not even a 1000+ years left for this to happen.
also again it doesn't make sense.
its against the plan of God for this world that people will have no reason or will to do wrong/bad/evil. which is what would have happened if there was no devil and God would be the king of this world.

so according to matthew 7:15-19 we should ignore them.

I hope we can solve this dilemma Noam, with some help from the Lord. I completely agree the bible was not written as a history book, it is a spiritual book filled with spiritual truth. Things that are written really did happen, except the parts that are specifically told as parables. But the Lord did not write down every historical detail but He wrote down what He wanted us to learn spiritual truths from, and wrote it in such a way as to hold His truth, His word.

About the dilemma....in Matthew 24:36-44 Jesus tells us to watch for His coming because no man or angel or even Jesus knew the time of His coming, only the Father knows, so we are to live in expectation of His coming at any time, we are to be ready and watching and have our lamps filled as if He could come at any moment. So the early church lived in this expectation of His imminent return........which is exactly what the Lord wants us to be doing. It is on purpose, so that we don't become complacent or spiritually lazy, or become at ease in this fallen world and start to follow the ways of the world. And in truth nobody knows the hour of our death, either, so we want to be ready as if we could stand before the Lord at any time.

Someone else addressed the scriptures you brought that you thought were false, but maybe I can just add a little part to what was said in my own words.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 This was not necessarily talking about the people who were alive contemporaneous when this was written but was referring to whoever will be alive in the future whenever Jesus comes (which could have turned out to be contemporaneous for all the early church knew, since they expected Him at any time).

1 John 2:8 Many antichrists, the last hour....not sure I can say anything different from what the other poster already said.........antichrists could be referring to antichrist spirits or false antichrist teachers who were of that antichrist spirit........from the minute the church was born the devil was busy trying to derail it and lead it astray. Last hour.......remember where it says with the Lord a day is as a thousand years.....last hour really means the last age, the church age since Christ came, it is the last era of this earth before a new heaven and earth are created.

Rev. 22:20 I come quickly........the word quickly means suddenly, it didn't mean He is coming right away, it means that when He comes, it will be a sudden appearance.....like lightning, in the twinkling of an eye.

2 Peter 3:1-18 is also a very helpful passage that helps us have the right perspective.

In general we need the Holy Spirit to help us understand scripture, to rightly divide it concerning the spiritual truths it contains......Noam, I don't know whether you are born again of His Spirit yet, if not then I encourage you to ask and seek the Lord to be born again, or if you have not yet received the Holy Spirit since being born again, then I encourage you to seek that. Whatever we have need of, to help us in understanding the will of God and to walk in it, He is able and gracious to give what we have need of. Often it is a case of Lord I believe, but Help my unbelief. The Holy Spirit being called a Helper. :)
 
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noam burde

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I hope we can solve this dilemma Noam, with some help from the Lord. I completely agree the bible was not written as a history book, it is a spiritual book filled with spiritual truth. Things that are written really did happen, except the parts that are specifically told as parables. But the Lord did not write down every historical detail but He wrote down what He wanted us to learn spiritual truths from, and wrote it in such a way as to hold His truth, His word.

About the dilemma....in Matthew 24:36-44 Jesus tells us to watch for His coming because no man or angel or even Jesus knew the time of His coming, only the Father knows, so we are to live in expectation of His coming at any time, we are to be ready and watching and have our lamps filled as if He could come at any moment. So the early church lived in this expectation of His imminent return........which is exactly what the Lord wants us to be doing. It is on purpose, so that we don't become complacent or spiritually lazy, or become at ease in this fallen world and start to follow the ways of the world. And in truth nobody knows the hour of our death, either, so we want to be ready as if we could stand before the Lord at any time.

Someone else addressed the scriptures you brought that you thought were false, but maybe I can just add a little part to what was said in my own words.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 This was not necessarily talking about the people who were alive contemporaneous when this was written but was referring to whoever will be alive in the future whenever Jesus comes (which could have turned out to be contemporaneous for all the early church knew, since they expected Him at any time).

1 John 2:8 Many antichrists, the last hour....not sure I can say anything different from what the other poster already said.........antichrists could be referring to antichrist spirits or false antichrist teachers who were of that antichrist spirit........from the minute the church was born the devil was busy trying to derail it and lead it astray. Last hour.......remember where it says with the Lord a day is as a thousand years.....last hour really means the last age, the church age since Christ came, it is the last era of this earth before a new heaven and earth are created.

Rev. 22:20 I come quickly........the word quickly means suddenly, it didn't mean He is coming right away, it means that when He comes, it will be a sudden appearance.....like lightning, in the twinkling of an eye.

2 Peter 3:1-18 is also a very helpful passage that helps us have the right perspective.

In general we need the Holy Spirit to help us understand scripture, to rightly divide it concerning the spiritual truths it contains......Noam, I don't know whether you are born again of His Spirit yet, if not then I encourage you to ask and seek the Lord to be born again, or if you have not yet received the Holy Spirit since being born again, then I encourage you to seek that. Whatever we have need of, to help us in understanding the will of God and to walk in it, He is able and gracious to give what we have need of. Often it is a case of Lord I believe, but Help my unbelief. The Holy Spirit being called a Helper. :)
you can ignore the facts all you wan't. but the reality won't change.
which is that paul and his successors failed to make even 1 clear genuine prophecy (not repeating previous prophecy) that came true.
and they they did make many that failed.
unlike the true prophets before them that made more then 100 clear supernatural prophesies that we know for a fact actually came true. and not 1 failed prophecy...
that makes paul and some of his successors false prophets (matthew 7:15-19).
anyone can argue as much as he/she wants about anything. but that is not the example God gave us.
so I'm not going to try to prove white is not black. or that 0 successful prophecy does not make someone the main source of Gods theachings. as most Christians use those books.
 
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HeLeadethMe

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you can ignore the facts all you wan't. but the reality won't change.
which is that paul and his successors failed to make even 1 clear genuine prophecy (not repeating previous prophecy) that came true.
and they they did make many that failed.
unlike the true prophets before them that made more then 100 clear supernatural prophesies that we know for a fact actually came true. and not 1 failed prophecy...
that makes paul and some of his successors false prophets (matthew 7:15-19).
anyone can argue as much as he/she wants about anything. but that is not the example God gave us.
so I'm not going to try to prove white is not black. or that 0 successful prophecy does not make someone the main source of Gods theachings. as most Christians use those books.

Noam, I love the Old Testament books......probably even read them more than the New Testament because the New Testament helped me to understand the Old......and I don't see any inconsistencies between the two....... they go together like a horse and carriage. Paul and the other apostles I don't believe were making any new prophecies in their writings......they were reiterating and confirming and giving understanding of prophecies and writings that had already been made by Jesus and OT prophets. The OT prophets prophesied of a messianic age to come.........the NT reveals that they were speaking of the millennial (1000 year) reign of Christ. Even the book of Revelation, so much of what is in that book is almost word for word reiteration of the OT prophets.

I'm not trying to argue with you, just discussing, so no hard feelings at all here. I was only trying to show you how the examples you gave were not false prophecies after all, so I guess we might have to agree to disagree. Paul paid a very high price all his life as a believer, for following Christ and evangelizing and building up the church, so that in itself is very much in his favour......even the things that he suffered would have helped to keep him in the truth.........whereas false prophets and false teachers don't like to pay a price to follow Jesus, on the contrary they are the ones who like to be paid and live a comfortable life of not offending anybody.
 
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noam burde

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Paul and the other apostles I don't believe were making any new prophecies in their writings.......
of course the apostles were not false prophets.
but I was not talking about the apostles.
I said paul and his successors (john and whoever prophesied in reveletion).
non of them was an apostle.
paul said he was. but there is no reason to believe him. only paul declared paul as an apostle.
he was not given the job by God.
peter had big disputes with him. he contradicted God on a lot of basic issues. and made no true prophesies and some false ones.
there is some logic in reading the first book after the gospel. because its not yet too much about paul and types like that.
 
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HeLeadethMe

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of course the apostles were not false prophets.
but I was not talking about the apostles.
I said paul and his successors (john and whoever prophesied in reveletion).
non of them was an apostle.
paul said he was. but there is no reason to believe him. only paul declared paul as an apostle.
he was not given the job by God.
peter had big disputes with him. he contradicted God on a lot of basic issues. and made no true prophesies and some false ones.
there is some logic in reading the first book after the gospel. because its not yet too much about paul and types like that.

Paul was not an apostle in the sense that he had been with Jesus during His days on the earth.......but I believe he was the first apostle of the New Testament church with the spiritual gift of apostleship.........where it says God has given some to be apostles, some to be prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists.

John wrote the book of Revelation and to my understanding is the same apostle who wrote the gospel of John.......he is the one who Jesus loved. He was a contemporary of Paul and the other apostles, but I believe he lived longer than them all, miraculously surviving a horrendous ordeal of being boiled alive in oil before being banished to Patmos.....perhaps kept alive by God in order to be a vessel of that amazing vision and revelation of Jesus Christ, which the Lord had him write it all down for our encouragement and instruction. Paul said that after he was gone, wolves in sheeps clothing were going to come in to the flock. It has been a war from the beginning for souls and to maintain purity of doctrine for the church. I don't know much about church history or who his immediate successors were.
 
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Strong in Him

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of course the apostles were not false prophets.
but I was not talking about the apostles.
I said paul and his successors (john and whoever prophesied in reveletion).
non of them was an apostle.

Paul was an apostle, and was accepted by the others as one.
The John who wrote Revelation is the apostle John who wrote the Gospel.

paul said he was. but there is no reason to believe him. only paul declared paul as an apostle.
he was not given the job by God.

1. If there's no reason to believe Paul, then you are saying that you don't trust most of the NT.
2. "Apostle" means "sent". Paul met the Lord Jesus on the road to Damascus, was converted and sent to the Gentiles.

peter had big disputes with him.

No; there is only one occasion recorded that Paul had an disagreement with Peter.
Peter later referred to him as "our brother".

he contradicted God on a lot of basic issues.

Like what?

there is some logic in reading the first book after the gospel. because its not yet too much about paul and types like that.

Acts records Paul's travels, and some of his sermons, from chapters 13 - 28; over half the book.
It was written by Luke, who was Paul's companion and doctor, as well as being a historian.
 
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noam burde

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John wrote the book of Revelation and to my understanding is the same apostle who wrote the gospel of John
the apostle John was not the author of revelation. and probably not of epistles of john.
he was the author of the gospel of john.
according to modern scholarship and early Christian writings, the other books where written by an unknown author.
John of Patmos - Wikipedia

Authorship of the Johannine works - Wikipedia

all the other apostles died earlier. and did not author any books after the gospel except maybe acts of the apostles.
as for paul. the only person to say Paul is an apostle of Jesus Christ in the entire New Testament is Paul himself.
if that's enough, then you should except also Mohamed, and other false prophets who also said they wrote the words of jesus, and that they where sent by God the father.
this is why Jesus told us to follow only who make genuine true clear supernatural prophesies.
because only God can give a prophecy and make it come true.

this are some examples paul teached directly contrary to God:
1 Timothy 2:8
"I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting."

jesus said in Matthew 6:5-8
"5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him."

before he said Matthew 6:6
"Take heed that ye do not your righteousness before men, to be seen of them: else ye have no reward with your Father who is in heaven."

also paul said:
"1 It is good for a man not to touch a woman. 2 Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband.."
(catholic priests are celibate all their life because of this)

God(יהוה) said in genesis:
"20So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals.
But for Adamf no suitable helper was found. 21So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribsg and then closed up the place with flesh. 22Then the Lord God made a woman from the ribh he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
23The man said,
“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for she was taken out of man.”
24That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh."
 
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Strong in Him

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the apostle John was not the author of revelation. and probably not of epistles of john.
he was the author of the gospel of john.
according to modern scholarship and early Christian writings, the other books where written by an unknown author.
John of Patmos - Wikipedia

Authorship of the Johannine works - Wikipedia

I was told that it was probably the apostle John who wrote it; but you could be right.

all the other apostles died earlier. and did not author any books after the gospel except maybe acts of the apostles.

Acts of the Apostles was written by Luke, who actually wasn't an apostle.
Peter makes reference in his epistle to the transfiguration, and says "we were with him on the holy mountain" - so that was probably the apostle Peter.
John stresses that he had heard, seen, touched and looked at the Word of life - Jesus. And the theme of his letters - light - is the same as his Gospel; so these were probably written by the apostle.

as for paul. the only person to say Paul is an apostle of Jesus Christ in the entire New Testament is Paul himself.

Yet the other apostles welcomed him as one. No one challenged him and called him a false apostle/teacher; as I said, Peter referred to him as a brother.

if that's enough, then you should except also Mohamed, and other false prophets who also said they wrote the words of jesus, and that they where sent by God the father.

But their words aren't in the Bible; the word of God. And they don't accept that Jesus was who he said he was.

this are some examples paul teached directly contrary to God:
1 Timothy 2:8
"I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting."

jesus said in Matthew 6:5-8
"5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

That's not a contradiction.
Paul was writing to Timothy about churches, and instructing Christians how to pray.
Jesus was saying that some people prayed publicly on street corners, only for show; to look good and get respect. This is how the scribes and Pharisees prayed. Jesus called them hypocrites. He also tells those he is speaking to, not to pray like heathen people do.

also paul said:
"1 It is good for a man not to touch a woman. 2 Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband.."
(catholic priests are celibate all their life because of this)

God(יהוה) said in genesis:
"20So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals.
But for Adamf no suitable helper was found. 21So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribsg and then closed up the place with flesh. 22Then the Lord God made a woman from the ribh he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
23The man said,
“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for she was taken out of man.”
24That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh."

?? How is that a contradiction?
Paul says further on that he wishes that all men were as he was - i.e unmarried. But says that people can marry - and maybe should, rather than being sexually promiscuous.
Genesis says that woman was created from Adam's rib - she came from him. Because of this, when men and women marry, they become "one flesh".
It is not saying, "you are commanded to marry"; neither is Paul saying, "you are commanded to be single."

You seem to be saying that Catholic priests read a verse which says "every man should have one wife and every woman, one husband", and then decide that means they should be celibate; not marry at all. That doesn't make sense. If you are reading that verse as a command, that is all the more reason for priests TO marry.
 
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