Universalism...why not?

Which is it?

  • God doesn't want all men to be saved.

    Votes: 4 8.2%
  • God can't do what he wants to do.

    Votes: 2 4.1%
  • Neither, God will continue to work on unrepentant souls because his love & patience are unending.

    Votes: 40 81.6%
  • Don't know...never thought about this before.

    Votes: 3 6.1%

  • Total voters
    49

Dartman

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I don't understand your curiosity with the subject.

Do you feel you deserve to be saved?

Do you feel Hitler doesn't deserve to be saved should he do what you did to be saved?

What about the Pharisees?

How about Satan?

Is it God is too weak to save? Or does His love has an expiry date like milk?

What do you Scriptures say? Has God revealed the truth to you?

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
You have WAY more questions than answers!!!
It's obvious, you don't have a single Scripture that explains the mechanics of your theory.
All you have, are a handful of phrases, taken out of context, that only SEEM to hint at universal salvation ...... if VAST quantities of Scripture are ignored.
But, to answer YOUR questions;

Do you feel you deserve to be saved? ..... no. But, God has offered grace to those that obey Him, and I continue to do so, so I have faith I will be saved in spite of the fact I don't deserve it.

Do you feel Hitler doesn't deserve to be saved should he do what you did to be saved?... the point is, he didn't.

What about the Pharisees?... the point is, most didn't... those that did, will be saved.

How about Satan?... the point is, he didn't.

Is it God is too weak to save? Or does His love has an expiry date like milk? ... Not an expiration date, God's love has already been given, and given, and given ... to EVERY human being. The REST of God's love is conditional;
Acts 17:30-31 ..... now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained;
 
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ClementofA

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Is it God is too weak to save? Or does His love has an expiry date like milk?

... Not an expiration date, God's love has already been given, and given, and given ... to EVERY human being. The REST of God's love is conditional;

Sounds like God's love has a milk carton expiry date...in your theology...not in the Scriptures. How sad.

1 Cor.13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not
take into account a wrong suffered, 6does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know
in part and we prophesy in part; 10but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.





Acts 17:30-31 ..... now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained;

God's judgement is a good thing.

"My soul yearns for you in the night; in the morning my spirit longs for you. When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." (Isa.26:9)

The Lord is acquainted with the rescue of the devout out of trial, yet is keeping the unjust for chastening in the day of judging. (2 Pet.2:9)

51 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem, 52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. 53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. 54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. 56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. (Luke 9)
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I don't understand your curiosity with the subject.

Do you feel you deserve to be saved?

Do you feel Hitler doesn't deserve to be saved should he do what you did to be saved?

What about the Pharisees?

How about Satan?

Is it God is too weak to save? Or does His love has an expiry date like milk?

What do you Scriptures say? Has God revealed the truth to you?

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Clement, at this point, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree about what each of us thinks we see in the universalist's position. So, I'm just going to trail off onto other useful threads here at CF and leave this discussion to others who feel it is something they wish to pursue. ;) Thanks for giving me something to think about anyway...

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
 
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Dartman

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Dartman said:
... Not an expiration date, God's love has already been given, and given, and given ... to EVERY human being. The REST of God's love is conditional;
Sounds like God's love has a milk carton expiry date...in your theology...not in the Scriptures. How sad.
What's sad is your capacity to ignore words you don't like.
Notice my reply starts with the word "Not". You simply ignored it. Like you ignore the word "if" in Scriptures.
I will give you 1,000,000 dollars ..... if you give me 1000 ounces of gold... and if you wait for me to sell that gold at todays values.

How important is "if"?

ClementofA said:
Dartman said:
Acts 17:30-31 ..... now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained;
God's judgement is a good thing.
Not for the wicked.
Heb 10:26-27 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
 
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Hillsage

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What's sad is your capacity to ignore words you don't like.
Notice my reply starts with the word "Not". You simply ignored it. Like you ignore the word "if" in Scriptures.
I will give you 1,000,000 dollars ..... if you give me 1000 ounces of gold... and if you wait for me to sell that gold at todays values.

How important is "if"?

Not for the wicked.
Heb 10:26-27 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
It's as important as looking at the words which translators disguise so the dumb sheep, can ignore words they don't like' (re. translators and sheep). Words which would cause problems with their indoctrination. If only words were translated consistently in a way that would allow scripture interpret scripture, so that even the sheep could question their handlers.

5227 hupenantios
under (convertly) contrary to, i.e. opposed or (as noun) an opponent

HEB 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries/hupenantios.

COL 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary/hupenantios to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


You read Hebrews and think sinners are the adversaries. Never knowing that it is the very 'Law of God' which was given "that trespasses might increase". You read Hebrews thinking the 'lost' are your enemies. We don't, and we got that message from Jesus as Clement's scriptural post above confirms.
 
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Hillsage

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Nice skirt you put on the issue, Clement. Again, I asked the question first; don't play games and try to turn it back on me and get out of your burden of proof here.
He skirted nothing, he told you exactly what they needed to do. You just didn't like the truth.

But, just to show you that I'm a guy with some integrity, I'll do your own work for you. Here's a Universalist article.
And it was 'good work' indeed. I actually went there interested in whatever doctrinal tweak they might have which I'd disagree with. And guess what your "integrity" only needs to be matched with 'reading skills'. I saw 'your answer' and the truth, you saw only what disagrees with your POV.
I perused the article, but even there, I find no direct, clear and distinct answer to my question. I do see is a lot of skirting the issue and subscribing to inferences and unproven assumptions. It's almost as if universalists don't really HAVE an answer to the "Hitler Question." Hmmmmm..........
I saw the answer to your question immediately under 'answer point 1, 2; as I too 'perused the article'. They actually had a lot of good points IMO. Sorry you couldn't 'see' them.

I know you've stated you're "trailing on", which is good. It really just confirmed my first 'opinion', which was you never 'landed' here looking for anything to begin with. So I don't expect an response, but I'm really just posting this for others to see how your 'drive by shooting' EXIT, as you 'get out of Dodge', really didn't do any damage. :wave:
 
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Dartman

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It's as important as looking at the words which translators disguise so the dumb sheep, can ignore words they don't like' (re. translators and sheep). Words which would cause problems with their indoctrination. If only words were translated consistently in a way that would allow scripture interpret scripture, so that even the sheep could question their handlers.

5227 hupenantios
under (convertly) contrary to, i.e. opposed or (as noun) an opponent

HEB 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries/hupenantios.

COL 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary/hupenantios to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


You read Hebrews and thing sinners are the adversaries. Never knowing that it is the very 'Law of God' which was given "that trespasses might increase". You read Hebrews thinking the 'lost' are your enemies. We don't, and we got that message from Jesus as Clement's scriptural post above confirms.
Hogwash.
1) The wicked are not my enemies, they are at enmity with God;
James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
2) Your sad attempt to distort this text demonstrates your intent to subject God's words to your theory, rather than form your thinking based on God's words.

Heb 10:22-31 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
24 And let
us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of
ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26 For if
we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour
the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall
he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For
we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Contrary to your post, the context is about PEOPLE .. NOT the law!!!
It is the PEOPLE who wilfully sin, that are "the adversaries"!
 
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Rajni

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In answer to the question about "is there any incentive to repent of sin"? I think that goes right back to the OP....and, if one believes that the ultimate soul objective is to be in union with God--then of course there's incentive to repent. Sin clouds our view.....distorts reality....causes us to believe things that aren't true....so, even though God is "for us"..... I believe we can't *accept* His love fully when we're corrupted from sin. In the parable of the Prodigal......I don't believe the older son had "repented"....and because of that....was keeping himself from accepting the love and joy from his brother and father. That's what I believe disbelief and corruption does.
Agreed.

We tend to gravitate towards whatever our focus is on. If the focus is to avoid sins X, Y, and Z, then it's going to be more of an uphill battle.

If, instead, the focus is on cultivating one's love for the Lord and the relationship to be had with Him there, those things just kind of fade away on their own.

“What we resist, persists.” That sort of thing.

I remember back when I was first learning to drive, I was constantly looking at the cars parked along the street as I drove by them, because I was afraid I'd hit them. The more I focused on those cars I feared I’d hit, the more I’d actually drift towards them.

I had to learn to focus straight ahead in order to keep the car going straight.

The same Way others are saved. Through Christ (Jn.14:6; Acts 4:12). That's how.

I'm guessing Hitler should be a piece of cake to save compared to Satan.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
It's interesting how this subject keeps getting Godwined in spite of what Paul had to say (presumably under the infallible inspiration of the Holy Spirit) about who the worst sinner of all actually was. And the worst sinner of all was, indeed, saved.

I was merely saying where I got the quotes from. That's all. I don't try to elevate my stance by using descriptions like, "highly respected"......"admired by many"....."very credible"..."REAL scholars"....etc.
The addiction to scholars in theology-world is ironic given that the bible's stance on those is basically: "Scholar? What scholar?" (1 Corinthians 1:20) :D
 
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2PhiloVoid

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He skirted nothing, he told you exactly what they needed to do. You just didn't like the truth.


And it was 'good work' indeed. I actually went there interested in whatever doctrinal tweak they might have which I'd disagree with. And guess what your "integrity" only needs to be matched with 'reading skills'. I saw 'your answer' and the truth, you saw only what disagrees with your POV.

I saw the answer to your question immediately under 'answer point 1, 2; as I too 'perused the article'. They actually had a lot of good points IMO. Sorry you couldn't 'see' them.

I know you've stated you're "trailing on", which is good. It really just confirmed my first 'opinion', which was you never 'landed' here looking for anything to begin with. So I don't expect an response, but I'm really just posting this for others to see how your 'drive by shooting' EXIT, as you 'get out of Dodge', really didn't do any damage. :wave:

Points 1, 2....and even 3 in the article aren't what I consider to be answers to the specific question I asked. So, with that, I am moving on ... I'm not much interested in furthering other people's "unilateral discussions."

Peace anyway, Hillsage--
2PhiloVoid
 
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Hillsage

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Hogwash.
1) The wicked are not my enemies, they are at enmity with God;
James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
2) Your sad attempt to distort this text demonstrates your intent to subject God's words to your theory, rather than form your thinking based on God's words.

Heb 10:22-31 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
24 And let
us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of
ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26 For if
we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour
the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall
he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For
we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Contrary to your post, the context is about PEOPLE .. NOT the law!!!
It is the PEOPLE who wilfully sin, that are "the adversaries"!
Wow, such a quick answer. But one which imply proved you didn't even understand what I wrote IMO. And since my post, I was immediately thinking; How will I respond if he responds? I thought I'd start with "I've never been able to nail snot to a fence post, so quit running and just answer the point made with my rebut to you." But, in all honesty, that answer was really just more like entertaining 'head candy' for me, than a real reply. But guess what, you didn't let me down, your answer fit perfectly.

So please, just answer the point I made
. A point which your whole response runs around never dealing with the point I made.
 
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Dartman

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You read Hebrews and thing sinners are the adversaries. Never knowing that it is the very 'Law of God' which was given "that trespasses might increase". You read Hebrews thinking the 'lost' are your enemies. We don't, and we got that message from Jesus as Clement's scriptural post above confirms.
Dartman said:
Hogwash.
1) The wicked are not my enemies, they are at enmity with God;
James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
2) Your sad attempt to distort this text demonstrates your intent to subject God's words to your theory, rather than form your thinking based on God's words.

Heb 10:22-31 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Contrary to your post, the context is about PEOPLE .. NOT the law!!!
It is the PEOPLE who wilfully sin, that are "the adversaries"!
Hillsage said:
Wow, such a quick answer. But one which imply proved you didn't even understand what I wrote IMO. And since my post, I was immediately thinking; How will I respond if he responds? I thought I'd start with "I've never been able to nail snot to a fence post, so quit running and just answer the point made with my rebut to you." But, in all honesty, that answer was really just more like entertaining 'head candy' for me, than a real reply. But guess what, you didn't let me down, your answer fit perfectly.

So please, just answer the point I made
. A point which your whole response runs around never dealing with the point I made.
As proven by the posts attached, I answered the point you made. If you don't THINK so, please support your claim.
 
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Der Alte

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Your accusation.
Hillsage said:
[post #1225] You read Hebrews and thing sinners are the adversaries. Never knowing that it is the very 'Law of God' which was given "that trespasses might increase". You read Hebrews thinking the 'lost' are your enemies. We don't, and we got that message from Jesus as Clement's scriptural post above confirms.
Dartman's response. Looks to me like he did in fact answer your point.
Dartman said:
[post #1227] Hogwash.
1) The wicked are not my enemies, they are at enmity with God;
 
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mkgal1

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2PhiloVoid said:
I perused the article, but even there, I find no direct, clear and distinct answer to my question. I do see is a lot of skirting the issue and subscribing to inferences and unproven assumptions. It's almost as if universalists don't really HAVE an answer to the "Hitler Question." Hmmmmm..........
That was a great article...thanks for posting it. Since you only perused the article.....perhaps you missed this part:

The Article Posted by 2PhiloVoid said:
So what do Christian Universalists believe in contrast to Driscoll/Breshears’s misrepresentations?

1. We believe that all will reconciled to God “no matter what they have done in this life” which is the same criteria by which Driscoll and Breshears themselves are saved. “It is by grace you have been saved through faith, not of works so that no one can boast” (Eph 2:8).

2. Contrary to their accusation that we believe sinners will be let into heaven “without ever changing” we believe “all the earth will look to God and be saved” (Isa 45: ), that God has “reconciled all things unto Himself ” (Col 1:10), that “every knee will bow to the glory of God the Father” (Phil 2:10), and that He is “making all things new.” (Rev 21:5)

3. “Because we are image bearers and have a conscience with a longing for justice” we intuitively know that justice entails more than retributive punishment. There is even a term for it–it is called “restorative justice.” We know that true Biblical justice is defined as DOING justice rather than GETTING justice. The Church has been growing in this understanding of justice as restorative which ideally includes reconciliation between victim and offender whenever possible. A prison sentence is not true justice but rather simply bringing consequences to bear while protecting society. True Biblical justice will result in righteousness which is the returning of something to its “right-useness” or as Keller reveals, the Hebrew meaning carries with it the sense of right relationship. Punitive justice is human, earthly, and temporal while restorative justice is God’s righteous and ultimate goal for all His creation (or what Keller calls primary justice).

4. “Getting to live forever with their victims” is seen as a nightmare to Driscoll/Breshears. But if you add the redemptive, redeeming, transforming power of the cross and resurrection of Christ, all of a sudden you have a story of breath-taking magnitude. You see Saul/Paul sharing community with the very ones he persecuted. Or the story of Corrie Ten Boom who forgave and shook hands with the same guard who terrorized and dehumanized her along with countless other victims. Could God work this astounding transformation for everyone? Is there anyone too lost for God to save in this life? Most Christians would say ‘no.’ Then why not in the ages to come as the Bible says:

“For God had allowed us to know the secret of his plan, and it is this: he purposes in his sovereign will that all human history shall be consummated in Christ, that everything that exists in Heaven or earth shall find its perfection and fulfillment in him.” Eph 1:10
(Phillips)
 
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ClementofA

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How important is "if"?

How important to God is saving all mankind?

In your theology death annihilates a person into oblivion without any thoughts, feelings or consciousness. Then God raises the lost back out of oblivion to life again, so He can torment them before annihilating them again, but forever this time.

Not for the wicked.
Heb 10:26-27 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

That sounds a lot like 1 Corinthians 3:13-17:

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Compare v.17 to

1 Cor.5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The context of Hebrews 10:26-27 reveals the punishment in those verses.

Hebrews speaks of those who reject Christ as deserving a "sorer" punishment than death by Moses' law, i.e. stoning:

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated out of existence, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine who abandons forever the beings He created in His image & likeness so easily.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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Dartman

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How important to God is saving all mankind?
Your question doesn't harmonize with Scripture;

Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.


ClementofA said:
In your theology death annihilates a person into oblivion without any thoughts, feelings or consciousness.
The Scriptures call it "sleep", or "asleep", or "sleepeth".

ClementofA said:
Then God raises the lost back out of oblivion to life again, so He can torment them before annihilating them again
The Scriptures call this "Judgment". It is justice. It is punishment. It is God's wrath, God's indignation, God's vengeance.
 
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ClementofA

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Your question doesn't harmonize with Scripture;

Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Why would you say that?

The verses you posted say nothing of final destiny, hell or afterlife judgement.

What makes you think they are speaking of anything but dieing before one's time? As in this life.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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2PhiloVoid

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That was a great article...thanks for posting it.
You're welcome. :rolleyes:

Since you only perused the article.....perhaps you missed this part:

No, I didn't miss that part, mkgal1. It simply means that I did not find it to be as descriptive as I'd like for it to be. And I want specifics, not generalities as to how someone like Hitler will be saved, without any assumption that he will be repentant on his own, whether on this side of the grave or the other.

I could be wrong, but it sounds like God is just going to overrule and override everything regardless ... without much consideration for the uniqueness He has given to each individual He has created, or for the personal moral culpability which He placed upon and within each of them. And whether they decide with Him for good in Christ, or even if they decide against Him for evil, none of that will make any difference because it will all get swept under the rug, which will be either Too bad or So Glad, depending on how one looks at it.

From what I can tell, it sounds like universalists don't subscribe to the concept of free will, at least not in the long run. So, if this is the case, I have some differences with them as to what constitutes the nature of humanity and God Himself, etc, etc.

In the meantime, I'll continue to read through the website on which that article resides.........................................................:cool:

Anyway, as I've already stated to others ...I'm done here. Peace to you, too. :cool:
2PhiloVoid
 
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Hillsage

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Hogwash.

2) Your sad attempt to distort this text demonstrates your intent to subject God's words to your theory, rather than form your thinking based on God's words.
NOT. You still have not addressed the word hupenantios and its use in Col 2:14 and my last post. That is the point you are still 'darting' around. So let me remind you again same word both verses 2nd verse definitely CHRISTIANS. Please 'nail' that down first.

5227 hupenantios
under (convertly) contrary to, i.e. opposed or (as noun) an opponent

HEB 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries/hupenantios.

COL 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary/hupenantios to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

But just to humor the 'two' of you let me explain, 'who Hebrews is being written to?' CHRISTIANS, not the world.

Why does verse 23 say "LET US"? Because if you do not "Let us draw near"...you..'Mr Christian' will NOT be free of a "evil conscience"....even as scripture agrees;


1JO 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.


Moving on to Hebrews 10;
Verse 24 is talking about 'EXHORTING one another'....fellow 'MR Christians'.
Verse 26 is talking about 'if WE sin' 'WE who KNOW the Truth'....IOW Mr Christians AGAIN!
Verse 27 Now we talk again about our Adversaries which you want it to be 'other people' based upon your bolded print in the verses above. Verses which I have just shown you, don't mean 'Other people'....it means 'covenant US' who are...(vs 28) despising the law of Moses.

1) The wicked are not my enemies, they are at enmity with God;
James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Contrary to your post, the context above is about the YE/Christians ..who are adversarial with God!!! Just read the verse 3 before...in context.

JAM 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. 4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

It is the Christian PEOPLE who willfully sin, that are "the adversaries/hupenantios" or 'contrary/opposed! IOW has nothing to do with UR of the unsaved.

Sorry for late response...busy patient day before holidays.
 
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Dartman

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Why would you say that?

The verses you posted say nothing of final destiny, hell or afterlife judgement.

What makes you think they are speaking of anything but dieing before one's time? As in this life.
Because the fact that EVERYONE dies is blatantly obvious. So the DIFFERENCE between righteous and wicked is 2nd death.
Because this very text states that the person WHO HAS ALREADY DIED, WILL DIE.
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
 
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Dartman

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NOT. You still have not addressed the word hupenantios and its use in Col 2:14 and my last post.
Of course I did. As I established in my post, the context overrules your pitiful attempt to spin the meaning of hupenantios.
 
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