Eternal Security and Apostasy

FreeGrace2 · Apr 20, 2017

TheSeabass said:
The point is WHO receives eternal life and WHY and in the context of John 10:27,28.

That is addressed in the verse. The "who" are His sheep. The "why" is that they "entered through Him" from v.9, which made them His sheep.

The WHO iis Christ's sheep that make up the sheep in v28. And the reason WHY is they conditionally maintain a faithful present tense hearing and following of Christ.

That is a total misread of the verses. There is nothing conditionally about maintaining anything in order to be His sheep.

Here's how such a verse would read: And one becomes one of His sheep by continuing to believe and follow Him. Or words to that effect. Yet, such wording is ABSENT in Scripture.

Therefore it is IMPOSSIBLE to be of the sheep of v28 without hearing and following CHrist and you have yet to prove otherwise or give a single example of anyone being a sheep of v28 WITHOUT having to hear and follow Christ. Your OSAS argument rests on the impossible.

Nonsense. All of His sheep have heard and believed. But there is NO REQUIREMENT to maintain such action in order to never perish. Or Jesus would have SAID SO. And He didn't.

So you are still faced with the impossible task of finding a way to get one to be os the sheep of v28 WITHOUT having to continuously hear and follow Christ.

Context shows HOW to be one of His sheep back in v.9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

Will you argue one can be a sheep of Christ WITHOUT ever having to hear and follow Christ?

No, never.

That is an impossibility.

Of course that would be an impossibility.

Will you argue one that does hear and follow Christ but later quits will still be of the sheep of v28? That is also an impossibility.

You've not proven your case. What v.28 SAYS is that the sole condition for never perishing is to receive eternal life.

The aorist tense does not change the present tense of John 10:27.

I never suggested that.

Therefpore a present tense hearing and following is required if one desires to be of the sheep of v28 and the aorist tense in other verses do not change this fact.

Your facts are skewed. Jesus put NO conditions for never perishing other than to receive eternal life. That is plainly stated.

The aorist tense used in one verse does not change nor allow you to find a way to get around the present tense in other verses.

It most certainly DOES refute the claim about having to continue to believe in order to continue to be saved.

Acts 16:31 is just one perfect example - They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

If your claims were biblical, then Acts 16:31 would have said "continue to believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved".

John 10:27 requires one to have a present tense hearing and following of Christ to be of HIS (possessive pronoun) sheep.

False. Jesus was merely describing what His sheep DO. He wasn't addressing HOW one becomes one of His sheep. Would you like an example?

Yet you are striving to find a way to get one to be of the sheep of v28 WITHOUT having to CONDITIONALLY have a present tense hearing and following of Christ...which is a biblical impossibility....and your aorist tense argument is just deflection from this and does not help your argument at all.

All "striving" is on your part in order to try to defend your unbiblical claim.

John 5:24 - From this verse can one QUIT hearing and believing and still have everlasting life or must one's hearing and following be sustained until death?

Sure, if one actually understands and believes what Jesus said. Those who believe HAVE eternal life. And have already passed from death to life. And WILL not come into condemnation. Very straightforward.

Obviously the present tense shows the hearing and believing must faithfully be sustained unto death (Revelation 2:10)

This is just a gross abuse of the present tense. It NEVER means that. Only in your head.

And the verb 'believe' in 1 Cor 1:21 is present tense showing that a persons' belief must be sustained unto death for it one quits believing he will become lost.

Fake news.

I never said man can be his own saviour, that is a straw man. What I have said is man cannot save himself by himself.

That is exactly what your view leads to. By having to maintain faith and obedience. There is no grace in your system.

These verses do prove that man has role in his own salvation

The only "role" man can play is passive; to receive eternal life by faith.

and must continue to fulfill that role unto death if he desires to be saved.

Fake news.

Obviously falling here had to do with falling from salvation fall from the elect.

There is nothing obvious about "falling" meaning falling from salvation.

The verse isn't about God's word never perishing, but the FACT that our new natures will never perish.

Which is eternal security.

You cited 1 Peter `1:23. the "incorruptible seed" is the word of God (Luke 8:11). From which our new nature proceeds.

The issue here is your IGNORING and AVOIDING the present tense for it kills OSAS.

Click to expand...

It's the OSNAS side that ignores and avoids the aorist tense, which kills OSNAS.

So you think the aorist tense in John 4 somehow changes or gets rid of the present tense found in other verses when it does not.

Click to expand...

It refutes your fake news that one must continue to believe and be faithful in order to stay saved.

I demonstrated in my earlier post how the verb 'drinketh' in John 4:14 is a constative aorist that shows an action that is SUSTAINED.

Click to expand...

It was a claim. It was not demonstrated. Or proven. How did you learn the word was a constative aorist? My lexicon doesn't parse to that extent.

Therefore the drinking MUST be sustained if one is to never thirst again.

Click to expand...

More abuse of the grammar.

The drinking cannot be for just a moment. The drinking cannot be sporadic. It must be sustained else one will thirst again. Note how "drink" in John 7:37 is present tense.

Click to expand...

More abuse of what Jesus plainly SAID.

I have dealt with you fault "aorist argument" head on and shown it to be faulty.

Click to expand...

You're in denial, that's all.

So the jailer can believe for just a second, then quit and still be saved?

Click to expand...

What did Paul tell him?

Not biblically possible at all and why your "aorist argument" fails miserably.

Click to expand...

This is just an opinion. No facts.

If one can be saved without believing then he can be saved without grace.

Click to expand...

I never said that one can be saved without believing. But what you keep dodging is that one is saved from a point in time belief (aorist).

If your claims were true, the Bible would NEVER use the aorist tense for 'believe'.

Furthermore, the verb "shalt be saved" in Acts 16:31 is future tense so he would not have salvation at that moment by just a momentary belief.

Click to expand...

It seems clear to me that you really have no idea how to understand Greek grammar.

The future tense means subsequent to the action of believing. Duh.

Evidently the belief must be sustained (constative aorist) for him to have that future salvation.

Click to expand...

Then prove that ALL of the aorist tenses of 'believe' are constative, and cite a legit source.

In verse 30, the jailer asks "what must I do (present tense) to be saved" hence the believing is an ongoing sustained doing.

Click to expand...

There is nothing here about "sustained" anything.

The present tense only refers to action from the perspective of the speaker. What he meant is "what must I do NOW to be saved". He certainly wasn't asking what he must do in sustained action, or Paul would have actually said words to the effect of keep on believing. That idea is NOT present in the present tense.

The present tense is relative to the time of the one speaking.

You're ideas abuse both the present and aorist tense. Grossly.

There are many verses that use the aorist tense, which you've admitted to not wanting to deal with.

Click to expand...

Nonsense. Where did I ever "admitted to not wanting to deal" with any of the aorist tenses? Prove your claim or retract it.

Why did Jesus use the aorist in Luke 8:12?

Click to expand...

Because one IS saved by a point in time act of believing.

And by His use of the present tense in v.13 and then saying "for a while" DEMONSTRATES that the present tense has NO SENSE of sustained action.

You've not proved your case.

Click to expand...

You're in denial.

If the aorist believe means one single momentary act, then how can that one momentary act CONTINUE to receive honor of another? If one quits believing then it is impossible to continue to receive the honor of another when that is the very thing he is desiring.

Click to expand...

Your bias is showing.

But I'm going to help out here. Check out this link for understanding Greek tenses:
Greek Verb Tenses (Intermediate Discussion)

EmSw · Apr 20, 2017

FreeGrace2 said:
That is addressed in the verse. The "who" are His sheep. The "why" is that they "entered through Him" from v.9, which made them His sheep

We can definitely see the behavior, that is, the works of sheep from Jesus' words.

Matthew 25
33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’
45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

My question is, how is a person one of His sheep, if good works are missing? It is the good works which differentiate the sheep from goats, not faith, nor a one-time belief.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 21, 2017

EmSw said:
My question is, how is a person one of His sheep, if good works are missing?

Because works aren't a requirement for becoming one of His sheep.

It is the good works which differentiate the sheep from goats, not faith, nor a one-time belief.

So? Works don't save.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast. Eph 2

vinsight4u · Apr 21, 2017

FreeGrace2 · Apr 21, 2017

vinsight4u said:
Eternal life is the gift we gain at the end of our salvation.

Jesus said that those who believe HAVE eternal life.

“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

EmSw · Apr 21, 2017

FreeGrace2 said:
Because works aren't a requirement for becoming one of His sheep.

You need to read Matthew 25 again, and this time believe it.

FreeGrace2 said:
So? Works don't save.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast. Eph 2

So, do you enter life by keeping the commandments, as Jesus said? Or, are you going to believe the liar?

FreeGrace2 · Apr 22, 2017

I said this:
"Because works aren't a requirement for becoming one of His sheep."

EmSw said:
You need to read Matthew 25 again, and this time believe it.

You need to read John 10 and believe it.

So, do you enter life by keeping the commandments, as Jesus said? Or, are you going to believe the liar?

Why aren't you going to answer my question about how many of them, or how perfectly, or how long I must do it?

Have you kept all of the commandments, and perfectly, and consistently?

EmSw · Apr 22, 2017

FreeGrace2 said:
I said this:
"Because works aren't a requirement for becoming one of His sheep."

You need to read John 10 and believe it.

Why aren't you going to answer my question about how many of them, or how perfectly, or how long I must do it?

Have you kept all of the commandments, and perfectly, and consistently?

How many does Jesus say? How perfectly does Jesus say? How long does Jesus say? How must you do it according to Jesus? If you don't know, then you really don't know Him.

Why are you asking me? I am not your master. But you better be sure you know what the Master says.

TheSeabass · Apr 22, 2017

FreeGrace2 said:
That is addressed in the verse. The "who" are His sheep. The "why" is that they "entered through Him" from v.9, which made them His sheep.

You are unable to find a way to get around the fact that one must first hear and follow Christ before they can be of His sheep. No one become one of CHrist's sheep for no particular reason then they hear and follow Christ.

FreeGrace2 said:
That is a total misread of the verses. There is nothing conditionally about maintaining anything in order to be His sheep.

Here's how such a verse would read: And one becomes one of His sheep by continuing to believe and follow Him. Or words to that effect. Yet, such wording is ABSENT in Scripture.

The words are in John 10:27 when Jesus said MY sheep hear and follow Me. The language is too simple.

Since one must first CONDITIONALLY hear and follow Christ to be of His sheep therefore be of the sheep in v28, you then are in a strait in finding a way to get one to be of Christ's sheep without having to first conditionally hear and follow Christ.

Being a sheep of Christ and thereby a sheep of v28 is CONDITONAL upon the Christians faithfulness in hearing and following Christ making OSAS claim of savlatin being UNconditonal false.

FreeGrace2 said:
Nonsense. All of His sheep have heard and believed. But there is NO REQUIREMENT to maintain such action in order to never perish. Or Jesus would have SAID SO. And He didn't.

Again, we see you trying for the impossible in trying to find a way to UNconditionally make one a sheep of Christ first, THEN he hears and follows as if the hearing and following have nothing at all in becoming a sheep of Christ. Again, youare obviously doing thise to try and avoid the conditional aspect of one having to hear and follow CHrist in order to be of His sheep and of the sheep in v28.

You cannot show a single example of anyone that was of Christ's sheep BEFORE they first having a conditional hearing and following of Christ.

FreeGrace2 said:
Context shows HOW to be one of His sheep back in v.9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

Christ metaphorically portrays Himself as a gate that one must enter through to be of His sheep. So the question is how does one enter through that 'gate"? By hearing and following the "Gate"/Christ.

One must first CONDITIONALLY enter the gate BEFORE he can be of Christ's sheep. You are trying to do the impossible by getting one to fist UNconditionally be a sheep before having to conditionally enter the gate.

There are conditions all over the contexts (entering the gate, hearing and following) that one must meet before he can be of Christ's sheep and you are denying this for it kills OSAS argument.

FreeGrace2 said:
No, never.

Then you are admitting one must FIRST conditionally hear and follow Christ before he can be of Christ's sheep?

FreeGrace2 said:
Of course that would be an impossibility.

But you have been denying one does not have to hear and follow Christ to be of His sheep.

Above you posted (my emp) "That is a total misread of the verses. There is nothing conditionally about maintaining anything in order to be His sheep."

So one does not conditionally have to first hear and follow Christ before he can be of His sheep?
Can you show an example of anyone that was of Christ sheep they did not hear and follow Christ?

FreeGrace2 said:
You've not proven your case. What v.28 SAYS is that the sole condition for never perishing is to receive eternal life.

John 10:28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

This verse does even remotely say "the sole condition for never perishing is to receive eternal life".

The verse DOES SAY "And I give unto THEM eternal life....".

So the pertinent, important question that you want to avoid is WHO is the THEM and WHY are these the ones receiving eternal life and not others?

The WHO is Christ sheep. WHY are they Christ's sheep? For some unknown, unconditional reason? NO! They are Christ's sheep for they conditionally hear and follow Him.

Again, you cannot show anyone that was of Christ's sheep or that had recieved eternal life while they person was not hearing and following Christ.

FreeGrace2 said:
I never suggested that.

You are creating contradiction among verses that have the present tense with those with the aorist tense.

FreeGrace2 said:
Your facts are skewed. Jesus put NO conditions for never perishing other than to receive eternal life. That is plainly stated.

Then show an example of anyone that either quit conditionally hearing and following Christ or that never conditionally heard and followed Christ yet had eternal life.

FreeGrace2 said:
It most certainly DOES refute the claim about having to continue to believe in order to continue to be saved.

Then why was the aorist tense used in John 3:16 and the many other verses for the verb "believed" instead of the present tense?

THe present tense and subjunctive mood of Jn 3:16 shows one must conditionally continue to believe in order to not perish. Do you think the orist tense of other verses change this? If you think the aorist tense of "believe" in other verses as Acts 16:31 means one can believe for a moment then quit yet still not perish then you have a major contradiction on your hands that you have created among verses.

FreeGrace2 said:
Acts 16:31 is just one perfect example - They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

If your claims were biblical, then Acts 16:31 would have said "continue to believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved".

The jailer asked for an immediate solution for his being lost and was given an immediate command to believe.
--no where does the context show that the jailer believed for a moment and quit
--no where does the context show that the jailer believed only.
--if the jailer did believe for a moment then quit would he still not perish contrary to what Jn 3:16 says?

FreeGrace2 said:
False. Jesus was merely describing what His sheep DO. He wasn't addressing HOW one becomes one of His sheep. Would you like an example?

You have not show that one can be of Christ sheep WITHOUT first conditionally DOING the hearing and following required to be of His sheep.

If one does not become of CHrist's sheep by hearing and following CHrist then HOW does one become of Christ's sheep? By NOT hearing and following Him? No. By an unconditional random choice? No.

You have created yourself a predicament in figuring out how to get a person to be of CHrist's sheep with that person not even knowing who Christ is and while in total disobedience to Christ words.

FreeGrace2 said:
All "striving" is on your part in order to try to defend your unbiblical claim.

My position one must first conditionally hear and following Christ and continue to hear and follow Him to be of His sheep is 100% biblical.

Waiting for you to show how a person can be of Christ's sheep without that person having to hear and follow Christ, i.e., be of CHrist's sheep and not even know of Christ.

FreeGrace2 said:
Sure, if one actually understands and believes what Jesus said. Those who believe HAVE eternal life. And have already passed from death to life. And WILL not come into condemnation. Very straightforward.

1) Are you saying one must believe IN ORDER to HAVE eternal life?
2) Or you saying one first has eternal life then believes?

#1 kills your position #2 is not biblcally possible. So are you saying 1 or 2?

SHow from John 5:24 how one can quit hearing Christ's words and quit believng Christ yet still not come into condemnatoin.

FreeGrace2 said:
This is just a gross abuse of the present tense. It NEVER means that. Only in your head.

The present tense is those verses is about an ongoing sustained action. Since the present tense and subjunctive mood kill the OSAS argument we see what you are constantly attacking the present tense. I will continue to use for it kills the OSAS argument.

FreeGrace2 said:
Fake news.

1 Corinthians 1:21 the verb is in the present tense not the aorist.

Show an example of anyone that quit believing (present tense) yet still maintained his salvation.

FreeGrace2 said:
That is exactly what your view leads to. By having to maintain faith and obedience. There is no grace in your system.

NO verse says God's grace is UNconditional but that one must faithfully continue to believe in order to continue to receive that grace for if they quit they will fall from grace having received grace in vain, 2 Corinthians 6:1

FreeGrace2 said:
The only "role" man can play is passive; to receive eternal life by faith.

Save yourselves
save thyself
cleanse ourselves
etc all prove man does have a role in his own salvation.

When the jailer asked what he must do to be saved he was told to believe (active voice imperative mood) Therefore he had a active role in his own salvation to believe.

Freegrace2 said:
Fake news.

Then show an example of anyone that quit believing yet remained of Christ's sheep and maintained salvation while in his unbelief.

FreeGrace2 said:
There is nothing obvious about "falling" meaning falling from salvation.

An always fallen person cannot fall for he is already fallen. Logically then only those that can fall are those that are in a saved position and fall from that saved position.

FreeGrace2 said:
Which is eternal security.

Again, 1 Peter 1:23 is about God's word being incorruptible, it's God's word that liveth and abideth forever. Nothing remotely at all about OSAS to be found here. Again, if you can read OSAS INTO this verse then what stops anyone from reading anything they care to into any verse?

FreeGrace2 · Apr 22, 2017

EmSw said:
How many does Jesus say? How perfectly does Jesus say? How long does Jesus say? How must you do it according to Jesus? If you don't know, then you really don't know Him.

Since you've continued to not answer my questions, it seems rather apparent that you yourself don't even know. Or you'd have answered the questions.

Why are you asking me? I am not your master.

I ask because of what your belief is. But you have no answers for your own belief. So why should anyone else believe your views when simple answers can't be answered.

But you better be sure you know what the Master says.

I certainly do.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 22, 2017

TheSeabass said:
You are unable to find a way to get around the fact that one must first hear and follow Christ before they can be of His sheep.

No need to even try to "get around" your so-called fact. In fact, one must "enter through Him" in order to be saved. John 10:9

Following Christ is what believers are commanded to do. But not for salvation.

No one become one of CHrist's sheep for no particular reason then they hear and follow Christ.

Why add the phrase "for no particular reason", since that is irrelevant. One becomes one of Christ's sheep for the purpose of being saved. Just as the Bible says.

The words are in John 10:27 when Jesus said MY sheep hear and follow Me. The language is too simple.

And that verse does NOT say that following is the means for becoming one of Christ's sheep. Jesus was describing what His sheep do. Not HOW to become one of them.

As you have said, "the language is too simple".

You cannot show a single example of anyone that was of Christ's sheep BEFORE they first having a conditional hearing and following of Christ.

Because I've NEVER suggested such a thing.

Christ metaphorically portrays Himself as a gate that one must enter through to be of His sheep. So the question is how does one enter through that 'gate"? By hearing and following the "Gate"/Christ.

No, by believing in Him for salvation.

Then you are admitting one must FIRST conditionally hear and follow Christ before he can be of Christ's sheep?

This word choice is poor. No one "conditionally hears". They simply HEAR. And when they believe in Him, they are saved.

But you have been denying one does not have to hear and follow Christ to be of His sheep.

I deny one has to hear and follow Christ to be one of his sheep. And v.27 doesn't say that. John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:50, 47 and 11:25,26 tells us how to be saved.

So one does not conditionally have to first hear and follow Christ before he can be of His sheep?

Jesus said one must "enter through Him" to be saved. John 10:9.

John 10:28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

This verse does even remotely say "the sole condition for never perishing is to receive eternal life".

Show me any other condition for never perishing than simply receiving eternal life.

The verse doesn't say how to receive eternal life, but many other verses do.

The WHO is Christ sheep.

Believers only.

WHY are they Christ's sheep?

They "entered through Him" and were saved.

For some unknown, unconditional reason? NO! They are Christ's sheep for they conditionally hear and follow Him.

Wrong.

Again, you cannot show anyone that was of Christ's sheep or that had recieved eternal life while they person was not hearing and following Christ.

People receive eternal life by believing in Christ.

THe present tense and subjunctive mood of Jn 3:16 shows one must conditionally continue to believe in order to not perish.

No, it doesn't. Stop abusing the present tense. It doens't mean "continuous action". It means action in the present; now. That's all.

Do you think the orist tense of other verses change this? If you think the aorist tense of "believe" in other verses as Acts 16:31 means one can believe for a moment then quit yet still not perish then you have a major contradiction on your hands that you have created among verses.

I believe what the Bible says;
those who believe in a point in time are saved. Acts 16:31
"having believed" one IS sealed IN HIM with th Holy Spirit, guaranteed for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14

The jailer asked for an immediate solution for his being lost and was given an immediate command to believe.

What is meant by "immediate command"? Paul said to believe in the aorist tense.

You have created yourself a predicament in figuring out how to get a person to be of CHrist's sheep with that person not even knowing who Christ is and while in total disobedience to Christ words.

This is utter nonsense. I've said no such thing. One MUST believe in order to be saved.

1) Are you saying one must believe IN ORDER to HAVE eternal life?
2) Or you saying one first has eternal life then believes?

What the Bible says; believe in order to have eternal life.

Again, 1 Peter 1:23 is about God's word being incorruptible, it's God's word that liveth and abideth forever.

The fact is that WE are born again. Of imperishable seed.

Imperishable seed cannot perish. Just like John 10:28.

EmSw · Apr 22, 2017

FreeGrace2 said:
Since you've continued to not answer my questions, it seems rather apparent that you yourself don't even know. Or you'd have answered the questions.

Since Jesus said, keep the commandments, how many was He speaking of? Since Jesus said, keep the commandments, how long did he mean? Since Jesus said, keep the commandments, how perfectly should we keep them?

You are telling me I don't need to keep any to enter life. I am not entertaining what you believe; your way will send one to hell. Jesus is very clear on doing what He says -

Luke 6:46
But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?

So I ask you, why do you not do the things He says?

FreeGrace2 said:
I ask because of what your belief is. But you have no answers for your own belief. So why should anyone else believe your views when simple answers can't be answered.

No answers? I've told you, if you want to enter life, you need to keep the commandments. You answer is, no I don't need to do that; I don't need to obey the Lord. He will save me even though I disobey.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 22, 2017

EmSw said:
Since Jesus said, keep the commandments, how many was He speaking of? Since Jesus said, keep the commandments, how long did he mean? Since Jesus said, keep the commandments, how perfectly should we keep them?

Yes, those are the questions that you aren't willing to answer.

You are telling me I don't need to keep any to enter life.

Did I ever say that? Please don't put false words in my mouth.

I am not entertaining what you believe; your way will send one to hell.

Believing in Jesus Christ for salvation sends one to hell??? Are you serious?

No answers? I've told you, if you want to enter life, you need to keep the commandments.

How many? For how long? And how perfectly?

You answer is, no I don't need to do that; I don't need to obey the Lord. He will save me even though I disobey.

You have no answers for your own theology.

TheSeabass · Apr 28, 2017

FreeGrace2 said:
No need to even try to "get around" your so-called fact. In fact, one must "enter through Him" in order to be saved. John 10:9

You are trying to find a way to get one to be of Christ sheep, hence of the sheep of Jn 10:28 without having to faithfully first heart and follow Christ.

FreeGrace2 said:
Following Christ is what believers are commanded to do. But not for salvation.

It appears here you are trying to make a person already a sheep of Christ without that person first conditionally hear and follow Christ.

Can you show an example of one being a sheep of Christ who never first heard and followed Christ?

FreeGrace2 said:
Why add the phrase "for no particular reason", since that is irrelevant. One becomes one of Christ's sheep for the purpose of being saved. Just as the Bible says.

If hearing and following is not how one becomes a sheep of Christ, then how does one become a sheep of Christ?

Any reason you give as to why one becomes a sheep of Christ, then you are creating a condition one must meet in order to become a sheep of Christ.

Is believing a condition one must first meet to be of Christ?
If so, can one quit believing and still be a sheep of Christ?
If so, can you show an example of one that impenitently quit believing Christ yet still remains a sheep/remained of Christ/remained saved anyway?

FreeGrace2 said:
And that verse does NOT say that following is the means for becoming one of Christ's sheep. Jesus was describing what His sheep do. Not HOW to become one of them.

Again, you are attempting to do the impossible in trying to make a person a sheep of Christ BEFORE one hears and follows. No such type of sheep exist.

The bible says being a sheep of Christ/saved is CONDITIONAL upon a faithful hearing and following of Christ.
OSAS falsely says salvation is UNconditional. So it it evident why you are trying to find a way to make a person of Christ UNconditionally.

FreeGrace2 said:
As you have said, "the language is too simple".

Because I've NEVER suggested such a thing.

You posted "And that verse does NOT say that following is the means for becoming one of Christ's sheep. Jesus was describing what His sheep do. Not HOW to become one of them."

Are you implying here that one can somehow become a sheep of Christ WITHOUT having to first hear and follow Christ?

ANd if hearing and following is not HOW one becomes a sheep of Christ,then HOW does one become a sheep of Christ? YOu you say "believing" is HOW one becomes a sheep f CHrist HOW can one bleieve in someone that they have never heard or followed?

In reality, believing is hearing and following Christ.

FreeGrace2 said:
No, by believing in Him for salvation.

1) Believing is hearing and following Christ
2) you making believing a condition one must first meet before one can be of Christ.
3) can one quit believing (quit hearing and following Christ) and still be saved?
IF so show an example of an unbeliever that is a sheep of Christ.

FreeGrace2 said:
This word choice is poor. No one "conditionally hears". They simply HEAR. And when they believe in Him, they are saved.

Romans 10:17 one must first conditionally hear before one can have faith.

FreGrace2 said:
I deny one has to hear and follow Christ to be one of his sheep. And v.27 doesn't say that. John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:50, 47 and 11:25,26 tells us how to be saved.

It is a biblical. logical impossibility of one to be of Christ without ever having first heard and follow Christ.

Christ said men must believe in order to be saved/not perish John 3:16.
Then those that do believe are the ones that are hearing and following Christ on the issue of belief.

Freegrace2 said:
Jesus said one must "enter through Him" to be saved. John 10:9.[/QUTOE]

And Jesus was figuratively calling Himself a door/gate. So HOW does one enter though this gate?

By hearing and following Christ. Verse 27 tells one one enters the door in of John 10:9.

logically:
--There is just one way to be saved/enter through Christ, no alternatives
--since believing(hearing $ following saves and entering the door saves
--then belieiving(hearing and following) is the same as entering the door
--if not, then you are trying to create multiple ways for one to be saved.

FreeGrace2 said:

Show me any other condition for never perishing than simply receiving eternal life.

Click to expand...

What does "receiving eternal life" mean? If the words "receive eternal life" was said to one who has never heard of God's word then those words are meaningless.

So the issues is HOW/WHY does one person receive eternal life and another does not?

hreason one person receives eternal life and another did not is one person CONDITIONALLY met the requirements Christ put upon receiving eternal life in believing (hearing and following). and the other did not.

Freegrace2 said:

The verse doesn't say how to receive eternal life, but many other verses do.

Click to expand...

Romans 10:17 hear
John 3:16 belief
Luke 13:3,5 repentance
Matthew 10:32-33 confession
Mark 16:16 baptism

Those that do these things are the ones that are hearing and following Christ.
NO doing these things is NOT hearing and following Christ.
How can one rightly claim he is a sheep of Christ when he does not do what Christ said to do Luke 6:46?

FreeGrace2 said:

Believers only.

Click to expand...

ANd if one quits believing (Hebrews 3:12) he still remains a sheep of Christ?

FreeGrace2 said:

They "entered through Him" and were saved.

Click to expand...

What does "enter through Him" mean? It means doing what Christ said to do.

FreeGrace2 said:

Wrong.

Click to expand...

You have yet to show one who was a sheep of Christ without that person first having to hear and follow Christ. HOwe can one be a sheep of Christ without ever even hearing of Christ and do not know of His existence?

FreeGrace2 said:

People receive eternal life by believing in Christ.

Click to expand...

h"entering thought the door" must = believing which = hearing and following Christ. = doing what Christ has said to do.

[quote-FreeGace2]No, it doesn't. Stop abusing the present tense. It doens't mean "continuous action". It means action in the present; now. That's all.

I am not abusing the present tense- you are wanting to ignore it for it kills OSAS.

One cannot be of the sheep of John 10:28 without having and maintaining a present tense hearing and following Christ per verse 27.

FreeGrace2 said:
I believe what the Bible says;
those who believe in a point in time are saved. Acts 16:31
"having believed" one IS sealed IN HIM with th Holy Spirit, guaranteed for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14

1) the context does not show that the jailer was saved at just a moment in time.
2) the context does not say the jailer was saved by belief only
3) what you post here contradicts all the verses that have "believe" in present tense.
4) the participle phrase "having believed" includes all the jailer did including his repentance washing their stripes and being baptized. The verb "believed in Acts 16:34 is now perfect tense, an action ongoing from past to present and not a momentary one time belief only.

FreeGrace2 said:
What is meant by "immediate command"? Paul said to believe in the aorist tense.

Yet the context does not show the jailer was saved by a momentary belief only.

John 2:20 "Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?"

The verb 'building' is aorist tense but does not mean their building was just for a moment then they quit. It is a constative aorist showing a one time continual building process for 46 years until the process was complete. Likewise believing is a one time continual process until the process is complete at one's death.

FreeGrace2 said:
This is utter nonsense. I've said no such thing. One MUST believe in order to be saved.

I posted "You have created yourself a predicament in figuring out how to get a person to be of CHrist's sheep with that person not even knowing who Christ is and while in total disobedience to Christ words."
To which you reply "utter nonsense". Yet you have said over and over that hearing and following is NOT how one becomes a sheep but what the sheep are commanded to do.

Therefore if hearing and following is not how one becomes a sheep of Christ, then how does one beocme a sheep who has never heard of Christ?

Freegrace2 said:
What the Bible says; believe in order to have eternal life.

Then salvation is CONDITIONAL upon one first believing. Salvation is not unconditional as OSAS claims.

If one quits believing, that is, quits meeting the condition then he becomes lost, Hebrew 3:12 then he no longer will be saved.

FreeGrace2 said:
The fact is that WE are born again. Of imperishable seed.

Imperishable seed cannot perish. Just like John 10:28.

The seed is the word of God and even though the word of God will last forever does not in way prove salvation cannot be lost under any circumstance.[/quote][/quote]

FreeGrace2 · Apr 29, 2017

TheSeabass said:
You are trying to find a way to get one to be of Christ sheep, hence of the sheep of Jn 10:28 without having to faithfully first heart and follow Christ.

No. Absolutely not.

It appears here you are trying to make a person already a sheep of Christ without that person first conditionally hear and follow Christ.

v.27 isn't about "initial faith" but what His sheep do.

We know how one becomes one of His sheep from 10:9; by entering through Him, meaning believing in Him as Savior.

OSAS falsely says salvation is UNconditional.

WHOever says such a thing is blatantly wrong. Salvation is conditioned upon faith in Christ. I believe you've confused eternal security with Calvinism's unbiblical doctrine of election.

You posted "And that verse does NOT say that following is the means for becoming one of Christ's sheep. Jesus was describing what His sheep do. Not HOW to become one of them."

Are you implying here that one can somehow become a sheep of Christ WITHOUT having to first hear and follow Christ?

No. Never.

ANd if hearing and following is not HOW one becomes a sheep of Christ,then HOW does one become a sheep of Christ?

10:9 tells us.

YOu you say "believing" is HOW one becomes a sheep f CHrist HOW can one bleieve in someone that they have never heard or followed?

All of your questions shows a total misunderstanding of my posts.

In reality, believing is hearing and following Christ.

Believing is putting one's trust in Him. From that, one should follow Him.

1) Believing is hearing and following Christ
2) you making believing a condition one must first meet before one can be of Christ.
3) can one quit believing (quit hearing and following Christ) and still be saved?
IF so show an example of an unbeliever that is a sheep of Christ.

#1 - one is saved by believing in Christ - Acts 16:31
#2 - Not me; the Bible. Eph 1:13 says so.
#3 - Jesus was clear about eternal security in 10:28; those He gives eternal life will never perish. No conditions for one who has received eternal life.
The Bible never describes a believer who quits believing as an unbeliever. The Bible describes them as apostates. When the Bible uses the word "unbeliever" it refers to one who has never believed.

But, if there are verses that do describe a former believer as an unbeliever, please share.

Christ said men must believe in order to be saved/not perish John 3:16.

Exactly right.

I am not abusing the present tense- you are wanting to ignore it for it kills OSAS.

No. What kills OSNAS is the aorist tense.

But abuse of the present tense is claiming that it means continual action to the end of one's life.

One cannot be of the sheep of John 10:28 without having and maintaining a present tense hearing and following Christ per verse 27.

This is abuse of the present tense.

1) the context does not show that the jailer was saved at just a moment in time.
2) the context does not say the jailer was saved by belief only

Actually, Paul's answer says EXACTLY that.

3) what you post here contradicts all the verses that have "believe" in present tense.

No, it doesn't. It's your faulty understanding of the present tense that is contradicted.

4) the participle phrase "having believed" includes all the jailer did including his repentance washing their stripes and being baptized.

So one is saved by washing wounds and being baptized? Where in the word would one get that from the context, or anywhere else in the Bible?

The verb "believed in Acts 16:34 is now perfect tense, an action ongoing from past to present and not a momentary one time belief only.

So? Are you denying the aorist tense use of 'believe'?

Then salvation is CONDITIONAL upon one first believing. Salvation is not unconditional as OSAS claims.

I never said otherwise.

If one quits believing, that is, quits meeting the condition then he becomes lost, Hebrew 3:12 then he no longer will be saved.

Heb 3:12 doesn't teach what you are claiming.

Ron Gurley · Jun 15, 2017

This is a well- worn subject! SEE:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/losing-salvation.8010090/

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/you-can-lose-your-salvation-through-apostasy.7785433/

Can True born again BELIEVERS lose their spiritual POSITION in Christ?

Can a Christian Lose His Salvation?

Willful Sin after Salvation and Eternal Security

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 18, 2017

It all depends on your definition of "willful sin". The question is, How much of our sinfulness was laid on Christ? Is He a complete Saviour, or just a partial one? If we could be entirely free from sin, would we have needed a Saviour?

Copperhead · Jun 24, 2017

It is so easy to be all caught up in the weeds to overlook the obvious. I may have missed it, but I don't recall this little nugget being brought up in any of the posts.

1 Corinthians 5:5 (NKJV) deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

This verse pertaining to the man in the congregation in Corinth that was shacking up with his stepmother. This was hardly minor sin going on, as if there is such a thing, as sin is sin.

Paul is clearly making the case that, while we may be punished/chastised/disciplined for living in sin, salvation is not questioned. Turn out the offender that his physical body will reap the reward of his sinful lifestyle, but the soul is saved.

I have become convinced that many have a tough time separating justification (gift of eternal life) from sanctification (set apart) and rewards for faithful obedience. The first is paid for in full at the time of belief and trust in the Messiah. The latter is earned rewards from the time of salvation on. It is human nature to feel that we have to do something to earn eternal life, which is pride, in that we can lay claim to feeling good about ourselves and maybe even feeling that we are better than others. It is tough for many to deal with that fact that, regarding the penalty of sin, we are totally hopeless and helpless and dependent only on the finished work of the Messiah, and there is nothing we can do to earn it. It is in our nature that we feel we need to contribute to the process in some way, including maintaining eternal life.

Perspective is everything. When Jesus was hanging on the cross, how many of our sins were future? All of them! So when He paid the penalty for our sin (to those that believe, trust and accept that payment made), that had to include all the sin we might ever commit. That is not a license to sin. It is wonderful liberty that we have passed from death to life, to the glory of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit! And the creation will praise Him for all eternity! What a wonderful God!

TheSeabass · Jun 29, 2017

Copperhead said:
It is so easy to be all caught up in the weeds to overlook the obvious. I may have missed it, but I don't recall this little nugget being brought up in any of the posts.

1 Corinthians 5:5 (NKJV) deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

This verse pertaining to the man in the congregation in Corinth that was shacking up with his stepmother. This was hardly minor sin going on, as if there is such a thing, as sin is sin.

Paul is clearly making the case that, while we may be punished/chastised/disciplined for living in sin, salvation is not questioned. Turn out the offender that his physical body will reap the reward of his sinful lifestyle, but the soul is saved.

I have become convinced that many have a tough time separating justification (gift of eternal life) from sanctification (set apart) and rewards for faithful obedience. The first is paid for in full at the time of belief and trust in the Messiah. The latter is earned rewards from the time of salvation on. It is human nature to feel that we have to do something to earn eternal life, which is pride, in that we can lay claim to feeling good about ourselves and maybe even feeling that we are better than others. It is tough for many to deal with that fact that, regarding the penalty of sin, we are totally hopeless and helpless and dependent only on the finished work of the Messiah, and there is nothing we can do to earn it. It is in our nature that we feel we need to contribute to the process in some way, including maintaining eternal life.

Perspective is everything. When Jesus was hanging on the cross, how many of our sins were future? All of them! So when He paid the penalty for our sin (to those that believe, trust and accept that payment made), that had to include all the sin we might ever commit. That is not a license to sin. It is wonderful liberty that we have passed from death to life, to the glory of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit! And the creation will praise Him for all eternity! What a wonderful God!

If OSAS were true in that salvation is UNconditional, then this individual at the church in Corinth could have CONTINUED in his fornication and be saved anyway. Yet this contradicts all the verses that say anyone who commits such sexual sins (fornication, adultery, etc) shall not be saved, shall not enter the kingdom of heaven 1 Corinthians 6:9-11; Galatians 5:19-21; Ephesians 5:3-7; Colossians 3:5-10; etc.

Paul was telling them to practice church discipline upon this man and withdraw form him. They had not "mourned" (1 Cor 5:2) this man for he was now spiritually dead. No reason to mourn if he never lost salvation and remained alive spiritually

1 John 1:7-10 for the Christian to continue to have all his sins cleansed away by the blood of Christ, the Christian must continue to walk in the light. The Christian is not walking in the light as long as he continues to be engaged in the state of fornication and remains impenitent of that sin not confessing it. Paul commanded this fornication be removed now.

"To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

This man was already spiritually in Satan's clutches and his sin had separated him from God (Isaiah 59:2) as seen by his continual living in fornication impenitently. For the church at Corinth to withdraw themselves from him was be the physical evidence of what has already taken place spiritually with this man and his separation from God.

--The reason for the discipline is that he "may be saved"....his salvation was not a guarantee.

--the "destruction of the flesh" is not what takes away sin, the blood of Christ does that. So the simple "destruction of the flesh" would not bring salvation.

--forgiveness of sins comes with repentance which this man did (2 Corinthians 2:5-11).

--Paul's intent was to clean up all the sin taking place at the church in Corinth...or else (2 Corinthians 12:20-21; 2 Corinthians 13:1-2)

--there would be no salvation for those committing sins at Corinth if they did not repent.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 29, 2017

TheSeabass said:
If OSAS were true in that salvation is UNconditional, then this individual at the church in Corinth could have CONTINUED in his fornication and be saved anyway. Yet this contradicts all the verses that say anyone who commits such sexual sins (fornication, adultery, etc) shall not be saved, shall not enter the kingdom of heaven 1 Corinthians 6:9-11; Galatians 5:19-21; Ephesians 5:3-7; Colossians 3:5-10; etc.

These passages do NOT say anything about "shall not enter the kingdom of heaven". That's a misread. They say they'll "have no inheritance in the kingdom" (Eph) or "shall not inherit the kingdom". That's NOT saying "shall not enter".

Having an inheritance IN the kingdom is reserved for faithfulness and obedience. iow, rewards IN the kingdom.

If those passages did say anything about a saved person unable to enter heaven, the Bible would be GROSSLY contradictory. Why? Glad you asked.

Jesus promised recipients of eternal life that they will never perish. John 10:28

Did you notice that there were no conditions for recipients to never perish? Nope. None.

iow, once a person receives eternal life, Jesus guarantees that they will never perish.

Paul was telling them to practice church discipline upon this man and withdraw form him. They had not "mourned" (1 Cor 5:2) this man for he was now spiritually dead.

The passage says NOTHING about him being "spiritually dead". Please don't make stuff up.

No reason to mourn if he never lost salvation and remained alive spiritually

We should always mourn believers who turn away from the Lord in word or actions. But not because they've lost salvation.

That is impossible, for Jesus guarantees that recipients of eternal life will never perish.

1 John 1:7-10 for the Christian to continue to have all his sins cleansed away by the blood of Christ, the Christian must continue to walk in the light. The Christian is not walking in the light as long as he continues to be engaged in the state of fornication and remains impenitent of that sin not confessing it. Paul commanded this fornication be removed now.

Please read from v.1 and count the number of times the word "fellowship" occurs in the first chapter. That is the subject of the first chapter; fellowship with God. Sin breaks fellowship. Confession restores fellowship, not salvation.

Eternal Security and Apostasy

Senior Veteran

White Horse Rider

Senior Veteran

Contributor

Senior Veteran

White Horse Rider

Senior Veteran

White Horse Rider

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

White Horse Rider

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

What U See is What U Get!

Senior Veteran

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Similar threads