Govt. a minister of God regarding Non Violence

Bollweevil · Jun 28, 2017

For those who believe a Christian is justified in fighting for their country; how do you reconcile that you would be fighting against God's minister? Romans 13:1-7states that the governing authority is a minister of God. Going to battle or war is going against another governing authority which is God's minister. How could this be justifiable for a Christian to fight against other Christians and another minister of God?

5thKingdom · Jun 28, 2017

Bollweevil said:
For those who believe a Christian is justified in fighting for their country; how do you reconcile that you would be fighting against God's minister? Romans 13:1-7states that the governing authority is a minister of God. Going to battle or war is going against another governing authority which is God's minister. How could this be justifiable for a Christian to fight against other Christians and another minister of God?

Luk 3:14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do?
And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely;
and be content with your wages.

SteveIndy · Jun 29, 2017

Bollweevil said:
For those who believe a Christian is justified in fighting for their country; how do you reconcile that you would be fighting against God's minister? Romans 13:1-7states that the governing authority is a minister of God. Going to battle or war is going against another governing authority which is God's minister. How could this be justifiable for a Christian to fight against other Christians and another minister of God?

This is a good point and I agree with the premise that Christians do not fight at all, but there is a way in which the one who would embrace fighting as a Christian virtue could counter this.

First it necessary to understand that a "minister" of God does not mean that the person is saved or worships God, it only means that God has corralled him to do His will. God uses many people to do His will and they are all His ministers. Nebuchadnezzar was God's minister and was defeated by Cyrus who was also God's minister. I think the real question should be, "How can one Christian justify killing his brother Christian in a war where both governments employ Christians as soldiers?" The answer is, that Christians should not be in the ranks as soldiers. Personally, I do not think he should serve even as a non-combatant, but that is a different argument.

War and fighting belong to the world of darkness, 1 John 2:7-11. True believers have passed out of the darkness of the world into the light of understanding, which Light was exhibited by our Lord.

Bollweevil · Nov 17, 2017

SteveIndy said:
This is a good point and I agree with the premise that Christians do not fight at all, but there is a way in which the one who would embrace fighting as a Christian virtue could counter this.

First it necessary to understand that a "minister" of God does not mean that the person is saved or worships God, it only means that God has corralled him to do His will. God uses many people to do His will and they are all His ministers. Nebuchadnezzar was God's minister and was defeated by Cyrus who was also God's minister. I think the real question should be, "How can one Christian justify killing his brother Christian in a war where both governments employ Christians as soldiers?" The answer is, that Christians should not be in the ranks as soldiers. Personally, I do not think he should serve even as a non-combatant, but that is a different argument.

War and fighting belong to the world of darkness, 1 John 2:7-11. True believers have passed out of the darkness of the world into the light of understanding, which Light was exhibited by our Lord.

I agree with you, good points.

DreamerOfTheHeart · Nov 18, 2017

Bollweevil said:
For those who believe a Christian is justified in fighting for their country; how do you reconcile that you would be fighting against God's minister? Romans 13:1-7states that the governing authority is a minister of God. Going to battle or war is going against another governing authority which is God's minister. How could this be justifiable for a Christian to fight against other Christians and another minister of God?

Everyone knows the verses on the matter (speaking of the several critical ones you do not include here).

So, we also know how God well described that ultimately He controls the "kings" of the earth, and the nations.

Bollweevil · Nov 22, 2017

DreamerOfTheHeart said:
Everyone knows the verses on the matter (speaking of the several critical ones you do not include here).

So, we also know how God well described that ultimately He controls the "kings" of the earth, and the nations.

God has allowed men to have free will and to establish governments with authority. These governments are not God's main ministers, the church is. My point is as Christians just because an earthly authority is a minister of God does not mean that we have justification to follow that authority when it contradicts God's authority e.g.: war, fighting. I've heard many people justify Christian's ability to kill just because of who their employer is and it is referred to as a minister of God. If this was true then no doubt there have been and would be Christians killing each other, which makes no sense.

DreamerOfTheHeart · Nov 23, 2017

Bollweevil said:
God has allowed men to have free will and to establish governments with authority. These governments are not God's main ministers, the church is. My point is as Christians just because an earthly authority is a minister of God does not mean that we have justification to follow that authority when it contradicts God's authority e.g.: war, fighting. I've heard many people justify Christian's ability to kill just because of who their employer is and it is referred to as a minister of God. If this was true then no doubt there have been and would be Christians killing each other, which makes no sense.

Police and soldiers have authority to carry and use the sword, as Scripture says. Where one can obviously replace "sword" with "gun" to fit modern times.

There is no statement about "wars with Christians", but there is a much harder statement which says that whomever kills by the sword must be killed by the sword. Jesus said this when Peter struck out against a Roman soldier, and it is repeated in Revelation. In Revelation it adds that this is where patience is required.

This clearly does not mean the same for those with authority by God through government to carry and use the sword.

As for arguments that God does not give soldiers and police the authority to use their proverbial sword, that is clearly against God.

Shempster · Nov 24, 2017

DreamerOfTheHeart said:
Police and soldiers have authority to carry and use the sword, as Scripture says. Where one can obviously replace "sword" with "gun" to fit modern times.

There is no statement about "wars with Christians", but there is a much harder statement which says that whomever kills by the sword must be killed by the sword. Jesus said this when Peter struck out against a Roman soldier, and it is repeated in Revelation. In Revelation it adds that this is where patience is required.

This clearly does not mean the same for those with authority by God through government to carry and use the sword.

As for arguments that God does not give soldiers and police the authority to use their proverbial sword, that is clearly against God.

Good point, but the only issue I have with that is that as a student of history, in the vast majority of instances, soldiers were required to enter a foreign land, chop up the inhabitants and steal their land and possessions under the orders of a murderous king.

SteveIndy · Nov 24, 2017

DreamerOfTheHeart said:
Police and soldiers have authority to carry and use the sword, as Scripture says. Where one can obviously replace "sword" with "gun" to fit modern times.

There is no statement about "wars with Christians", but there is a much harder statement which says that whomever kills by the sword must be killed by the sword. Jesus said this when Peter struck out against a Roman soldier, and it is repeated in Revelation. In Revelation it adds that this is where patience is required.

This clearly does not mean the same for those with authority by God through government to carry and use the sword.

As for arguments that God does not give soldiers and police the authority to use their proverbial sword, that is clearly against God.

If I understand correctly the question hangs up on whether or not governing authorities who use the sword will receive punishment since they were under orders from God to be subject to the authorities? The answer is Yes, they will still be judged for their crimes even though it was God who established that authority. God has not given those who are subject to the laws of the New Kingdom the authority to use the sword and if they do then they forfeit any benefit they would have gained from being a child of God and reinstate the old law of a tooth for a tooth as their judge.

DreamerOfTheHeart · Nov 25, 2017

SteveIndy said:
If I understand correctly the question hangs up on whether or not governing authorities who use the sword will receive punishment since they were under orders from God to be subject to the authorities? The answer is Yes, they will still be judged for their crimes even though it was God who established that authority. God has not given those who are subject to the laws of the New Kingdom the authority to use the sword and if they do then they forfeit any benefit they would have gained from being a child of God and reinstate the old law of a tooth for a tooth as their judge.

I do not view the verse in Revelation as being so easy to decipher, likewise much of Revelation seems written not just to predict the future, but also to influence it.

The Centurion was a key figure in the ministry of Jesus, and likely it was that very same Centurion in Acts. Could have been a different one. But, the fact is, Jesus judged the Centurion he met with extremely high praise.

I do not know for sure until Jesus returns with the angels, otherwise. I simply do not have enough accurate information.

We do know from multiple instances in Scripture, the Prophets and Law, that there are righteous wars, and there were wars God led kings and queens into for His own purposes, but where they were doing it for bad reasons their own selves.

DreamerOfTheHeart · Nov 25, 2017

Shempster said:
Good point, but the only issue I have with that is that as a student of history, in the vast majority of instances, soldiers were required to enter a foreign land, chop up the inhabitants and steal their land and possessions under the orders of a murderous king.

The end of wars will come soon, is my belief.

When Jesus and his angels are revealed from Heaven, all the nations will collapse. They will be too terrified to try and start anything, and the wicked will be finding themselves cast out of the Kingdom. While those who are alive will be changed into imperishable bodies, such as Jesus and the angels have.

Shempster · Nov 25, 2017

DreamerOfTheHeart said:
The end of wars will come soon, is my belief.

When Jesus and his angels are revealed from Heaven, all the nations will collapse. They will be too terrified to try and start anything, and the wicked will be finding themselves cast out of the Kingdom. While those who are alive will be changed into imperishable bodies, such as Jesus and the angels have.

I like the way you phrased that.
I have been a believer for about 30 years and it's not often that I hear the end of the story this way.
The preterists try and tell us that the "end" already happened and that we will now endure the current state of the world indefinitely.
What?
You mean the human race may have to endure 2,000 more years of molestation, murder, rape, slavery, genocide, war, famine, disease, oppression, and all of that? Oh, God, tell me it isn't so.

All of creation is sick and tired of it all and wants liberation from evil. May it happen soon, I say!

Ron Gurley · Nov 26, 2017

ALL "Governments" not guided by Christ-following principals. Matthew 25
ALL are allowed by God.
Some NATIONS have accepted, Some NATIONS have rejected ...God.
Their Judgment by Jesus the Christ: sheep and goats.
Sheep are loved and given an eternal spiritual home in the heavenly realms.
Goats are given an eternal spiritual home in the "lake of fire".

Ron Gurley · Nov 26, 2017

Jesus submitted to an evil government...Rome.

Mark 12:17
And Jesus said to them, “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” And they were amazed at Him.

BUT Christ-followers should resist / fight against all forms of government evil.

Jesus was not a philosophical pacifist. He twice righteously and violently cleansed the Temple. He condemed the legalistic Jewish sects with unkind words.

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