MORE RAPTURE QUESTIONS

BABerean2

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I noted in my post that mere differences do not prove two comings. But statements that would be contradictions if they happened at the same time do. And that is exactly what the Holy Spirit did in the Old Testament.

The most common understanding for the entire history of the Church has been that the event at the end of 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 occurs at the beginning of Christ's Second Coming.

Your doctrine however claims that God will deal with modern people based on their race, during a future time.
It must ignore the warnings about genealogy in 1 Timothy 1:4 and Matthew 3:9.


Your doctrine needs a pretrib removal of the Church so that God can go back and deal with modern Israelites outside of the Church, revealed by Christ in Matthew chapter 16.

There will not be any salvation during a future time outside of the Church.

.
 
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Postvieww

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Actually, this passage does not state the timing of the resurrection, other than to say that the resurrection of "they that are Christ's at his coming" is after the resurrection od Christ (which was nearly 2000 years ago and the time when Christ delivers up the kingdom to God, (which will take place after the millennium.)

Chapter and verse please.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.



Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

The end in this context is clearly at His coming not the end of the 1000 years. I stand by my post on 1 Corinthians 15:21-24
 
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jgr

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Is this the day of the Lord?

Psalm 18
7 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth.
8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet.
10 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.
11 He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
12 At the brightness that was before him his thick clouds passed, hail stones and coals of fire.
13 The Lord also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire.
14 Yea, he sent out his arrows, and scattered them; and he shot out lightnings, and discomfited them.
15 Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O Lord, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils.

The physical phenomena described are what we would expect on the day of the Lord. Verse 9 asserts that the Lord came down. How could this not be the day of the Lord?

But it isn't.

It's a metaphoric apocalyptic idiom that the Psalmist uses to symbolically describe God's intervention to effect his (the Psalmist's) personal deliverance.
 
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jerry kelso

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Jerry kelso said:

1. I thought you were confused? Lol!

The truth is you are confused.

I believe it is you that is confused. As I told Bible writer I used to believe as you and taught this false doctrine.

2. You think because there is a first coming and a second coming the rapture has to be the same as the second coming.

The first coming was Christ in the flesh on this earth the second coming will be after the tribulation, there is no other coming of the Lord in scripture.

That is not the case for the dead in Christ only come out of Heaven and the believers come from the earth to the clouds alive to meet them in the air. This is the rapture.

I challenge you to show us one clear reference to a changed (resurrected) body in heaven at any time, other than Jesus anywhere in scripture. You can find the souls of dead believers in heaven, there is your clue don’t miss it.

At the second coming all the living believers from Adam to the tribulation saints come out of Heaven and go straight to the earth to the Battle of Armageddon.

This is the Second Coming.

The natures of these comings are of two different natures and purposes.

No resurrected, changed saints return with Christ.

1 Thess. 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1 Thess. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Those dead saints (souls)that are now with Christ will return with Him to receive their new resurrection bodies.

3. They that are at Christ Coming is the rapture for we are to be looking for the Blessed Hope as Titus says.

He will return the dead will be raised and we will be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye but we do not return back to heaven.

4. Revelation 5:9-10; 11:18; 19:8-10 shows all believers from Adam to the church believers are in Heaven during the tribulation.

Rev. 5 is 24 elders and 4 beasts not believers in heaven before the tribulation. Another topic altogether.

Rev 11:18 shows no one in heaven there are no angry nations in heaven. Who is confused?

Rev 19 describes the same thing as 1 Thess 3 & 4 describe



5. The 1st resurrection is all believers from Christ the firstfruits to the tribulation saints in Revelation 15:1-2 which is the same as in Revelation 20:4-6.

Those in Rev 15 are not resurrected saints.

6. Christ has to reign and put down all sin and rebellion 1000 years before he gives the kingdom back to the Father 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 and Revelation 20:8:10.

The second coming has no resurrection. The last resurrected believers of tribulation saints are before the Wrath of God Revelation 15:1;16:1-2.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 doesn’t mention the Lord but He will be present.

The 7th vial is the Battle of Armageddon.

So is the 7th trumpet Rev 11:18 “destroy them that destroy the earth”

So is the 6th seal Rev 6:15-17

The seals, trumpets and vials overlap.

Furthermore, if the rapture took place in Revelation 19:11-15 the Jewish remnant would have to go up and then they would not be a remnant any longer. Jerry kelso

The only ones who go to heaven are the dead in Christ before His return.

post view,

1. Tell me what scripture in the Old Testament that says the New Covenant Church would be raptured at the Second Coming? Acts 1 when he said he'd come back as he left?
This is true in Zechariah 14 when he gathers all the nations against Jerusalem to battle and fights against those nations when he steps his feet on the Mount of Olives. This is the Day of the Lord and will be the Battle of Armageddon.
There is no physical resurrection here.

2. The believers resurrection of 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 living and dead saints is a mystery, verse 51.
This means it was a mystery to the Old Testament saints completely and a mystery to the early church till Paul revealed it in the Corinthian Church at least till Peter got the vision of the clean and unclean of the mystery of the church of Jews and Gentiles in one body Acts 10:48. This was 8-10 years after the Day of Pentecost.

3. The Jews in Jesus day were still under the Old Covenant and they understood the resurrection of the last day John 5:24.
Hebrews 6:1-2 talks about leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ was the law of Moses.
To go onto perfection was the New Covenant.
Hebrews is about the contrast of the Old and New Covenants because of which pressure was coming to push them back in the Old Covenant etc.
Verse 2 says they were not to lay again the foundation of repentance from dead works, faith toward God, doctrines of baptisms, eternal judgement and Resurrection of the Dead. These were Old Testament doctrines.
The author of Hebrews were telling this to Jewish New Covenant believers. The rapture of the church was a mystery to the Old Covenant Jews and New Covenant Jews until revealed to them by Paul.

4. The last resurrected believers are found in Revelation 15:1-2 and they are Hebrew believers that sing the Song of Moses and the Lamb who got victory over the Beast, his image, his mark and number of his name. These are the same company as in Revelation 20:4-6. This is the last of the resurrected believers in the First Resurrection Revelation 20:5.
No rapture of living believers and the dead coming out of Heaven with Christ to meet in the air right before the Wrath of God or on the day of the Lord.

5. Revelation 5:4; the 24 elders who represent the Old and New Testament saints are clothed in white and crowns of Gold and in verse 10 where they are casting their crowns before the throne.
Revelation 5:9-10 the four beasts and the 24 elders are praising God and saying they were redeemed to God by his blood out of every kindred and tongue and people and Nations. The church is in Heaven resurrected before the tribulation, during the tribulation being judged for their works Revelation 11:18 and at the Marriage Supper in Heaven dressed in fine linen which is the righteousness of the saints getting ready to go to the marriage Supper of the Great God Revelation 19:17.
You are trying to convince me that they are not resurrected yet?
Even if the resurrection happened of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 at the end of the tribulation the latest would be before the last 7 vials and the Day of the Lord which happens at the Battle of Armageddon which is the 7th Vial.
Now you can disagree but you can't prove the scriptural proof of the pre-tribulation scripture.
You need to learn proper biblical hermeneutics and properly reconciling scriptures and their contexts together. Jerry kelso
 
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BABerean2

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The believers resurrection of 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 living and dead saints is a mystery

Rev 10:7  But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. 

.
 
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Postvieww

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post view,

1. Tell me what scripture in the Old Testament that says the New Covenant Church would be raptured at the Second Coming? Acts 1 when he said he'd come back as he left?
This is true in Zechariah 14 when he gathers all the nations against Jerusalem to battle and fights against those nations when he steps his feet on the Mount of Olives. This is the Day of the Lord and will be the Battle of Armageddon.
There is no physical resurrection here.

2. The believers resurrection of 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 living and dead saints is a mystery, verse 51.
This means it was a mystery to the Old Testament saints completely and a mystery to the early church till Paul revealed it in the Corinthian Church at least till Peter got the vision of the clean and unclean of the mystery of the church of Jews and Gentiles in one body Acts 10:48. This was 8-10 years after the Day of Pentecost.

3. The Jews in Jesus day were still under the Old Covenant and they understood the resurrection of the last day John 5:24.
Hebrews 6:1-2 talks about leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ was the law of Moses.
To go onto perfection was the New Covenant.
Hebrews is about the contrast of the Old and New Covenants because of which pressure was coming to push them back in the Old Covenant etc.
Verse 2 says they were not to lay again the foundation of repentance from dead works, faith toward God, doctrines of baptisms, eternal judgement and Resurrection of the Dead. These were Old Testament doctrines.
The author of Hebrews were telling this to Jewish New Covenant believers. The rapture of the church was a mystery to the Old Covenant Jews and New Covenant Jews until revealed to them by Paul.

4. The last resurrected believers are found in Revelation 15:1-2 and they are Hebrew believers that sing the Song of Moses and the Lamb who got victory over the Beast, his image, his mark and number of his name. These are the same company as in Revelation 20:4-6. This is the last of the resurrected believers in the First Resurrection Revelation 20:5.
No rapture of living believers and the dead coming out of Heaven with Christ to meet in the air right before the Wrath of God or on the day of the Lord.

5. Revelation 5:4; the 24 elders who represent the Old and New Testament saints are clothed in white and crowns of Gold and in verse 10 where they are casting their crowns before the throne.
Revelation 5:9-10 the four beasts and the 24 elders are praising God and saying they were redeemed to God by his blood out of every kindred and tongue and people and Nations. The church is in Heaven resurrected before the tribulation, during the tribulation being judged for their works Revelation 11:18 and at the Marriage Supper in Heaven dressed in fine linen which is the righteousness of the saints getting ready to go to the marriage Supper of the Great God Revelation 19:17.
You are trying to convince me that they are not resurrected yet?
Even if the resurrection happened of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 at the end of the tribulation the latest would be before the last 7 vials and the Day of the Lord which happens at the Battle of Armageddon which is the 7th Vial.
Now you can disagree but you can't prove the scriptural proof of the pre-tribulation scripture.
You need to learn proper biblical hermeneutics and properly reconciling scriptures and their contexts together. Jerry kelso

Jerry kelso said:

1. Tell me what scripture in the Old Testament that says the New Covenant Church would be raptured at the Second Coming? Acts 1 when he said he'd come back as he left?

This is true in Zechariah 14 when he gathers all the nations against Jerusalem to battle and fights against those nations when he steps his feet on the Mount of Olives. This is the Day of the Lord and will be the Battle of Armageddon.

There is no physical resurrection here.

One of the problems here is you act as thought everything on this topic should be spelled out in great detail on any point I make and points you make should be just understood as you see them without the same requirement for detail.


Example: You claim there can be no resurrection at the second coming after the tribulation because it is not specifically mentioned in passages such as Zechariah 14 but you ignore points I make such as 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 which mentions the trumpet but does not mention the clouds or even the Lord Himself is not mentioned yet we all agree He will be present at the resurrection whenever it is.


The point is just because a detail is included or excluded from a passage on the coming of the Lord is not an argument that holds up.


2. The believers resurrection of 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 living and dead saints is a mystery, verse 51.

This means it was a mystery to the Old Testament saints completely and a mystery to the early church till Paul revealed it in the Corinthian Church at least till Peter got the vision of the clean and unclean of the mystery of the church of Jews and Gentiles in one body Acts 10:48. This was 8-10 years after the Day of Pentecost.

Paul just added more detail such as living believers will be changed. The old testament believers still believed in a resurrection at the last day, Daniel 12:1-4, Job 19:25-26.

3. The Jews in Jesus day were still under the Old Covenant and they understood the resurrection of the last day John 5:24.

Exactly, and there is only one resurrection in our future for God’s people but you have already claimed there is not one at the second coming at the last day, were the OT saints wrong about the timing?


Jesus said clearly 3 times in John 6 He would raise those that believe on Him at the last day that is not the last day before the great tribulation it is THE LAST DAY of this world system at His second coming.


Hebrews 6:1-2 talks about leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ was the law of Moses.

To go onto perfection was the New Covenant.

Hebrews is about the contrast of the Old and New Covenants because of which pressure was coming to push them back in the Old Covenant etc.

Verse 2 says they were not to lay again the foundation of repentance from dead works, faith toward God, doctrines of baptisms, eternal judgement and Resurrection of the Dead. These were Old Testament doctrines.

The author of Hebrews were telling this to Jewish New Covenant believers. The rapture of the church was a mystery to the Old Covenant Jews and New Covenant Jews until revealed to them by Paul.

Hebrews mentions baptisms, plural and resurrection of the dead singular. There is one resurrection of the righteous dead in our future and it is at the last day, at His coming. Paul did not reveal a separate resurrection; He only gave more detail about the only resurrection for the righteous God has planned.

4. The last resurrected believers are found in Revelation 15:1-2 and they are Hebrew believers that sing the Song of Moses and the Lamb who got victory over the Beast, his image, his mark and number of his name. These are the same company as in Revelation 20:4-6. This is the last of the resurrected believers in the First Resurrection Revelation 20:5.

You make a lot of assumptions here for someone who requires detail in coming of the Lord passages.


1. Where in revelation 15:1-2 does it say anything about Hebrew believers? This is all believers who have gotten the victory over the beast not just Hebrews.


2. You assume there is a resurrection here, but one is not mentioned, shall we use your standard here? It is not mentioned therefore it cannot be. Read Revelation13:15 then ask yourself is it not only possible but very likely that those in Revelation 15 got there through death and are not resurrected saints at all?


3. John says in Revelation 20:4 “I saw the souls” he did not say I saw the resurrected tribulation saints. This is his mention of seeing that group in heaven; he does not describe the resurrection as happening at that time he just refers to the FIRST resurrection in verse 6 should we ASSUME the first resurrection includes only tribulation saints?


No rapture of living believers and the dead coming out of Heaven with Christ to meet in the air right before the Wrath of God or on the day of the Lord.

Jesus said the resurrection would be on the last day. When do you think the last day is?

5. Revelation 5:4; the 24 elders who represent the Old and New Testament saints are clothed in white and crowns of Gold and in verse 10 where they are casting their crowns before the throne.

Again you make a lot of assumptions here.


1. You assume the 24 represent Old and New Testament saints. Nothing in scripture says that. Jesus and angels wear white. Unresurrected souls in heaven wear white Revelation 6:11


2. You left out the four beasts who also had harps and sang the new song, and claim they are redeemed (KJV) who do you think they represent?


Revelation 5:9-10 the four beasts and the 24 elders are praising God and saying they were redeemed to God by his blood out of every kindred and tongue and people and Nations.

Read Rev 5 in the ASV


Rev 5:7 And he came, and he [d]taketh it out of the right hand of him that sat on the throne.


8 And when he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.


9 And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,


10 and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon the earth.


11 And I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels round about the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;


12 saying with a great voice,Worthy is the Lamb that hath been slain to receive the power, and riches, and wisdom, and might, and honor, and glory, and blessing.


13 And every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them, heard I saying, Unto him that sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honor, and the glory, and the dominion, [e]for ever and ever.


14 And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the elders fell down and [f]worshipped.


I submit to you the 24 elders are not resurrected anyone they are members of Gods heavenly hosts , created beings just like the angels and the four beasts or living creatures in this passage. If you want to stick with the KJV on this passage you must answer how the 4 beasts are redeemed by the blood of Jesus and are made kings and priests and will reign on the earth. The ASV in my opinion translates this passage correctly.


The church is in Heaven resurrected before the tribulation, during the tribulation being judged for their works Revelation 11:18

The scene of Revelation 11:18 is on earth not in heaven. I pointed out earlier there are no angry nations in heaven. What is your response here?

and at the Marriage Supper in Heaven dressed in fine linen which is the righteousness of the saints getting ready to go to the marriage Supper of the Great God Revelation 19:17.


Funny you picked Revelation 19:17 to make your point, read verse 18:


Rev. 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.


This “supper of the great God” is one of flesh, at Armageddon! Shall we have that “biblical hermeneutics and properly reconciling scriptures and their contexts together” conversation now?


You are trying to convince me that they are not resurrected yet?

Absolutely I am, you cannot show any evidence without just assuming it there are any resurrected saints in heaven at any time.

Even if the resurrection happened of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 at the end of the tribulation the latest would be before the last 7 vials and the Day of the Lord which happens at the Battle of Armageddon which is the 7th Vial.

For now I rest my case, looking for real response to the points I’ve made here.

Now you can disagree but you can't prove the scriptural proof of the pre-tribulation scripture.

There is no pre-trib rapture in scripture!

You need to learn proper biblical hermeneutics and properly reconciling scriptures and their contexts together. Jerry kelso

Good advice!
 
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jerry kelso

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Jerry kelso said:

1. Tell me what scripture in the Old Testament that says the New Covenant Church would be raptured at the Second Coming? Acts 1 when he said he'd come back as he left?

This is true in Zechariah 14 when he gathers all the nations against Jerusalem to battle and fights against those nations when he steps his feet on the Mount of Olives. This is the Day of the Lord and will be the Battle of Armageddon.

There is no physical resurrection here.

One of the problems here is you act as thought everything on this topic should be spelled out in great detail on any point I make and points you make should be just understood as you see them without the same requirement for detail.


Example: You claim there can be no resurrection at the second coming after the tribulation because it is not specifically mentioned in passages such as Zechariah 14 but you ignore points I make such as 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 which mentions the trumpet but does not mention the clouds or even the Lord Himself is not mentioned yet we all agree He will be present at the resurrection whenever it is.


The point is just because a detail is included or excluded from a passage on the coming of the Lord is not an argument that holds up.


2. The believers resurrection of 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 living and dead saints is a mystery, verse 51.

This means it was a mystery to the Old Testament saints completely and a mystery to the early church till Paul revealed it in the Corinthian Church at least till Peter got the vision of the clean and unclean of the mystery of the church of Jews and Gentiles in one body Acts 10:48. This was 8-10 years after the Day of Pentecost.

Paul just added more detail such as living believers will be changed. The old testament believers still believed in a resurrection at the last day, Daniel 12:1-4, Job 19:25-26.

3. The Jews in Jesus day were still under the Old Covenant and they understood the resurrection of the last day John 5:24.

Exactly, and there is only one resurrection in our future for God’s people but you have already claimed there is not one at the second coming at the last day, were the OT saints wrong about the timing?


Jesus said clearly 3 times in John 6 He would raise those that believe on Him at the last day that is not the last day before the great tribulation it is THE LAST DAY of this world system at His second coming.


Hebrews 6:1-2 talks about leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ was the law of Moses.

To go onto perfection was the New Covenant.

Hebrews is about the contrast of the Old and New Covenants because of which pressure was coming to push them back in the Old Covenant etc.

Verse 2 says they were not to lay again the foundation of repentance from dead works, faith toward God, doctrines of baptisms, eternal judgement and Resurrection of the Dead. These were Old Testament doctrines.

The author of Hebrews were telling this to Jewish New Covenant believers. The rapture of the church was a mystery to the Old Covenant Jews and New Covenant Jews until revealed to them by Paul.

Hebrews mentions baptisms, plural and resurrection of the dead singular. There is one resurrection of the righteous dead in our future and it is at the last day, at His coming. Paul did not reveal a separate resurrection; He only gave more detail about the only resurrection for the righteous God has planned.

4. The last resurrected believers are found in Revelation 15:1-2 and they are Hebrew believers that sing the Song of Moses and the Lamb who got victory over the Beast, his image, his mark and number of his name. These are the same company as in Revelation 20:4-6. This is the last of the resurrected believers in the First Resurrection Revelation 20:5.

You make a lot of assumptions here for someone who requires detail in coming of the Lord passages.


1. Where in revelation 15:1-2 does it say anything about Hebrew believers? This is all believers who have gotten the victory over the beast not just Hebrews.


2. You assume there is a resurrection here, but one is not mentioned, shall we use your standard here? It is not mentioned therefore it cannot be. Read Revelation13:15 then ask yourself is it not only possible but very likely that those in Revelation 15 got there through death and are not resurrected saints at all?


3. John says in Revelation 20:4 “I saw the souls” he did not say I saw the resurrected tribulation saints. This is his mention of seeing that group in heaven; he does not describe the resurrection as happening at that time he just refers to the FIRST resurrection in verse 6 should we ASSUME the first resurrection includes only tribulation saints?


No rapture of living believers and the dead coming out of Heaven with Christ to meet in the air right before the Wrath of God or on the day of the Lord.

Jesus said the resurrection would be on the last day. When do you think the last day is?

5. Revelation 5:4; the 24 elders who represent the Old and New Testament saints are clothed in white and crowns of Gold and in verse 10 where they are casting their crowns before the throne.

Again you make a lot of assumptions here.


1. You assume the 24 represent Old and New Testament saints. Nothing in scripture says that. Jesus and angels wear white. Unresurrected souls in heaven wear white Revelation 6:11


2. You left out the four beasts who also had harps and sang the new song, and claim they are redeemed (KJV) who do you think they represent?


Revelation 5:9-10 the four beasts and the 24 elders are praising God and saying they were redeemed to God by his blood out of every kindred and tongue and people and Nations.

Read Rev 5 in the ASV


Rev 5:7 And he came, and he [d]taketh it out of the right hand of him that sat on the throne.


8 And when he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.


9 And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,


10 and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon the earth.


11 And I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels round about the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;


12 saying with a great voice,Worthy is the Lamb that hath been slain to receive the power, and riches, and wisdom, and might, and honor, and glory, and blessing.


13 And every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them, heard I saying, Unto him that sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honor, and the glory, and the dominion, [e]for ever and ever.


14 And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the elders fell down and [f]worshipped.


I submit to you the 24 elders are not resurrected anyone they are members of Gods heavenly hosts , created beings just like the angels and the four beasts or living creatures in this passage. If you want to stick with the KJV on this passage you must answer how the 4 beasts are redeemed by the blood of Jesus and are made kings and priests and will reign on the earth. The ASV in my opinion translates this passage correctly.


The church is in Heaven resurrected before the tribulation, during the tribulation being judged for their works Revelation 11:18

The scene of Revelation 11:18 is on earth not in heaven. I pointed out earlier there are no angry nations in heaven. What is your response here?

and at the Marriage Supper in Heaven dressed in fine linen which is the righteousness of the saints getting ready to go to the marriage Supper of the Great God Revelation 19:17.


Funny you picked Revelation 19:17 to make your point, read verse 18:


Rev. 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.


This “supper of the great God” is one of flesh, at Armageddon! Shall we have that “biblical hermeneutics and properly reconciling scriptures and their contexts together” conversation now?


You are trying to convince me that they are not resurrected yet?

Absolutely I am, you cannot show any evidence without just assuming it there are any resurrected saints in heaven at any time.

Even if the resurrection happened of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 at the end of the tribulation the latest would be before the last 7 vials and the Day of the Lord which happens at the Battle of Armageddon which is the 7th Vial.

For now I rest my case, looking for real response to the points I’ve made here.

Now you can disagree but you can't prove the scriptural proof of the pre-tribulation scripture.

There is no pre-trib rapture in scripture!

You need to learn proper biblical hermeneutics and properly reconciling scriptures and their contexts together. Jerry kelso

Good advice!

postvieww,

1. I have studied your position as well so I am not one sided.
Zechariah is the talking about the Day of the Lord which is Christ coming from Heaven to earth to the Mount of Olives. This is the 2 be coming and is a different nature than the rapture of 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.
We have Old Testament scriptures to show the Second Coming as a day of vengeance not the resurrection.
I didn't ignore 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 and the last Trump is not the same trumpet as in Revelation and there is no cloud that Christ comes back with dead saints from Heaven on the day of the Second Coming to receive believers.
You are trying to contrive them together and cannot scripturally.
You are going by the perception of the last Trump of 1 Corinthians 15 and Revelation 11:15 when you don't understand the context.
I understand passages can have certain details and another more details but that has nothing to do with the point I made.
1Corinthians 15:51 shows this resurrection was a mystery. This is in the New Testament and was different than the last day resurrection which was an Old Testament doctrine John 5:27, Hebrews 6:1-2. Those New Covenant believers were told not to do the Old Testament doctrine of the resurrection of the dead Hebrews 6:1-2 so the mystery of 1 Corinthians 15 rapture is not more details. So your more detail is merely being contrived and is contradictory.

2. Daniel 12:1-4;
The people written in the book have to with the 144,000 Jews in the middle of the tribulation of the time of Jacob's trouble verse 1.
Verse 2 is a general usage of the resurrection not the timing. All the sinners wil not be resurrected till 1000 years after the 1st resurrection which are the tribulation saints in Revelation 15:1-2 which are resurrected before the 7 vials are poured out and Armageddon begins which is the Second Coming.
Job 19:25-26.
Job knew that his redeemer live th and that he would stand at the latter day of the earth. He also knew he would see God in his flesh.
He didn't give a time factor on him being raised on that latter day.
I have already discussed the differences between the Old and New Testament on the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead and why the New Covenant Jewish believers in Hebrews were not to continue to believe them.
They were also not believe in Old Testament doctrines of baptism but that that doesn't mean there is no such thing as a New Testament doctrine of Baptism and it is not the same with more detail.

3. The Old Testament Jews understood the last day resurrection but not in full. They didn't even know about the church of Jews and Gentiles in one body of Christ.
In Jesus day they didn't know what the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus was in his earthly message of the KoH and the KoG. It wasn't till after they rejected him that he started to reveal plainly.
The Old Covenant believers didn't even have the book of Revelation.
Many believe Jewish believers only from all time won't be resurrected till the last day. Even if that were true the latest would be before the last 7 vials and the Day of the Lord.

4. Revelation 15:1-2 are those that don't take the mark of the beast etc, and sing the song of Moses and the Lamb.
In Genesis Miriam sing the song of Moses under the Old Covenant about the Red Sea deliverance and the horse and rider.
In Revelation they are New Covenant believing Jews for God delivers them again.

5. Jesus said Lazarus would rise again but not on a specific day Revelation 11:23. Martha mentioned the last day which was an Old Testament doctrine but she didn't know if it was the very last day or the season. It doesn't matter because things changed when the mystery of the rapture and resurrection was revealed by Paul.

6. I have already explained what the 1st coming was and what the 2nd Coming is and what the rapture is. You are assuming that because it is called the Coming it has to be the rapture and resurrection. You have no scripture to back up your assumption.

7. No assumptions on the rapture of the church, the Twenty elders or saints in white with crowns of Gold.
Revelation 1:19 is the time factor of Revelation.
Things that were was the vision of Jesus in the midst of the 7 Golden Candlesticks which were the 7 churches of Asia which represents the whole church age because Revelation is a prophecy Revelation 1:3.
Things that were present in Johns day was the 7 churches of Asia that represented all the church ages.
The things here after was after the church age for they are not seen in the tribulation which deals more with Israel's earthly calling according to the KoH which is connected all throughout their history.
Also, John is told tome up hither through the door of Heaven with a voice like a trumpet and the things thereafter would be shown to him, the First being Heaven with the thrones, the 24 elders, the four beasts.
Revelation 5 is the search for someone qualified to open the book which atarts the tribulation.
The four beasts are singing with those who are redeemed which are the 14 elders and have the prayers is saints verse 8. Verse 9, they sing a new song to the lamb.
Thou are worthy to take the book and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain and has redeemed us to God by the blood out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation. The 24 elders represent the Old and New Testament saints; 12 for the Old and 12 for the New.
The beasts worship around the throne all day and all night without ceasing Revelation 4:8.
The elders are redeemed for they are dressed in white which is the righteousness of the saints Revelation 4:4. Revelation 5:10 these elders will reign on earth as Kings and Priests.
Revelation 19:8-10 was the fellow servant of God that John was going to worship him and was of his brethren that had the testimony of Jesus which was the spirit of prophecy verse 10. The beasts are not man.

8. Revelation 11:18 is being spoken at this time just like verse 15 but they are not fulfilled until a little bit later.
The first part of verse 18 will happen on earth with the anger of the nations.
The rewards of the prophets and saints which are in Heaven are the believers judgements of works Romans 14:101 Corinthians 3:11-15, 2 Corinthians 5:10.

9. The marriage Supper of the Great God is the Battle of Armageddon. There is nothing contradictory about verse 17&18.

10. All the saints from Adam to the last of the tribulation saints who will be resurrected by the time of right before the vials. The only Resurrection after this time is one thousand literal yeas laters for the sinners Revelation 20: 5.

11. There is a pre-trib rapture that is the resurrection at the same time as in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:51-52.
There is a rapture of the Manchild Revelation 12:6, 13 who is the 144,000 Jews from Revelation 7 who are preserved through the trumpet judgements Revelation 9:4 and are raptured to the Heavenly Mt. Sion Revelation 14:1-5.
The 2 witnesses are raptured according to Revelation 11:12 which I believe will be in the 2nd half of the tribulation though some believe will be the first half.
The blessed dead in Revelation 14:13 are the martyrs who didn't take the mark of the beast.
These dead believers are seen in Heaven and are connected to the First Resurrection Revelation 20:4-6.
There are no implications or plain statements that says living believers are resurrected at the same time as those from Revelation 15:1-2.
You are trying to contrive and put 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 into Revelation 20:4-6.
There is no scripture that says the church age saints will have to go through the tribulation.
Why do you think the church will go through tribulation anyway?
Jerry kelso
 
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Postvieww

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There is no scripture that says the church age saints will have to go through the tribulation.


There is no scripture that says they will not be here. You have to make a lot of assumptions about certain scriptures to get the doctrine that the church is hiding out in heaven.

Saints of God will not endure the wrath of God but they will be overcome by the beast. Revelation 13:7-15, Daniel 7:21,

The saints of God will be here during the tribulation. Rev. 13:7, 13:10, 14:12, 2 Thess. 2:3
 
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Postvieww

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Why do you think the church will go through tribulation anyway?



Because scripture teaches it.

Much of the seals, trumpets and vials are not global in scope. None of the wrath of God is directed at the church. Some of the seals and trumpets most likely have already happened. In my understanding the reign of antichrist and the vials which are the wrath of God are the worst parts of the tribulation. It is only the wrath of Satan that the church will have to endure.


Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

If these washed in the blood saints were not in the tribulation they could not have come out of it.
 
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jerry kelso

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There is no scripture that says they will not be here. You have to make a lot of assumptions about certain scriptures to get the doctrine that the church is hiding out in heaven.

Saints of God will not endure the wrath of God but they will be overcome by the beast. Revelation 13:7-15, Daniel 7:21,

The saints of God will be here during the tribulation. Rev. 13:7, 13:10, 14:12, 2 Thess. 2:3

post view,

1. Saints will be there which are tribulation saints like the souls under the altar Revelation 6:9-11, the 144,000 Revelation 7 & 14 who go to Heaven. the Two Witnesses who go to Heaven Revelation 11:12; the remnant who stay on earth Revelation 11:12; 12:17 Revelation 13:7,10 who the Antichrist kills and those who didn't take the mark of the beast.

2. The point is that they are tribulation saints and not the church age saints.
So you are assuming that because it says saints it is the church age saints and they are not and you are wrong according to scriptural context. Jerry kelso
 
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jerry kelso

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Because scripture teaches it.

Much of the seals, trumpets and vials are not global in scope. None of the wrath of God is directed at the church. Some of the seals and trumpets most likely have already happened. In my understanding the reign of antichrist and the vials which are the wrath of God are the worst parts of the tribulation. It is only the wrath of Satan that the church will have to endure.


Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

If these washed in the blood saints were not in the tribulation they could not have come out of it.

post view,

1. You have shown no scripture that shows the church of today goes through the tribulation.

2. There will be a great revival in the tribulation and outpouring of the Spirit according to Joel 2.
All tribulation saints will be saved in the blood of the Lamb of the New Covenant. There is no other way to be saved.
Church saints are already and we don't have to go through the tribulation.
2 Timothy 2:12 says the church is being trained to rule and reign by way of suffering.
The tribulation, especially the last half called Jacob's trouble; Daniel 9:24:27; 12:1 Matthew 24:15-21 Roman's 11:25-29 etc. shows Israel has to go through the Great Tribulation to repent and be purged to enter the Kingdom at the Head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4;9:6-7;66:7-9 as a nation born in one day. You are confused and wrong. Jerry kelso
 
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BABerean2

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You have shown no scripture that shows the church of today goes through the tribulation.


Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 


The Capital "C" Church as you are using the term above (even though you made it lowercase), is not found in the entire Book of Revelation. It is also not found in several other New Testament books.

Seven individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.

A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the Church of the Lamb.

.
 
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jerry kelso

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Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 


The Capital "C" Church as you are using the term above (even though you made it lowercase), is not found in the entire Book of Revelation. It is also not found in several other New Testament books.

Seven individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.

A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the Church of the Lamb.

.

baberean2,

1. The word church is not found in Revelation concerning being in the tribulation which is the time of Jacob's trouble Isaiah 66:7-9; Jeremiah 30:5; Daniel 12:1; Matthew 24:15-21 etc. which is in connection with the Nation of Israel and their gifts and callings Romans 11:25-29.

2. The tribulation saints saved will be saved by the blood of the lamb and will not be a part of the Old Testament and church age saints in heaven.
When they go to Heaven and the First Resurrection is completed they will be a part of all the Heavenly saints Old and New that will come out of Heaven to the battle of Armageddon.
The Heavenly saints after the 1000 year reign will come down in the Holy City to earth.

3. You can say they are a part of the church because of Jew and Gentile in one body on the same level and that is fine, but that still doesn't mean both companies are in the tribulation at the same time on earth.
You are trying to say the church today has to be in the tribulation at the same time in order for anybody to be saved especially the Jew. This is not true. Jerry kelso
 
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BABerean2

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which is the time of Jacob's trouble Isaiah 66:7-9; Jeremiah 30:5;

You have taken Jeremiah's "time of Jacob's trouble" out of its historical context during the Babylonian captivity and have cast it over 2,000 years into the future, in an attempt to make modern Dispensational Theology work.



Jer 30:1  The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 

Jer 30:2  "Thus speaks the LORD God of Israel, saying: 'Write in a book for yourself all the words that I have spoken to you. 

Jer 30:3  For behold, the days are coming,' says the LORD, 'that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah,' says the LORD. 'And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.' " 

Jer 30:4  Now these are the words that the Lord spoke concerning Israel and Judah. 

Jer 30:5  "For thus says the LORD: 'We have heard a voice of trembling, Of fear, and not of peace. 

Jer 30:6  Ask now, and see, Whether a man is ever in labor with child? So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins Like a woman in labor, And all faces turned pale? 

Jer 30:7  Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob's trouble, But he shall be saved out of it. 

Jer 30:8  'For it shall come to pass in that day,' Says the LORD of hosts, 'That I will break his yoke from your neck, And will burst your bonds; Foreigners shall no more enslave them. 

Jer 30:9  But they shall serve the LORD their God, And David their king, Whom I will raise up for them. 

Jer 30:10  'Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,' says the LORD, 'Nor be dismayed, O Israel; For behold, I will save you from afar, And your seed from the land of their captivity. Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet, And no one shall make him afraid. 


Is this what you call "rightly dividing" the Word?

.
 
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jerry kelso

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You have taken Jeremiah's "time of Jacob's trouble" out of its historical context during the Babylonian captivity and have cast it over 2,000 years into the future, in an attempt to make modern Dispensational Theology work.



Jer 30:1  The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 

Jer 30:2  "Thus speaks the LORD God of Israel, saying: 'Write in a book for yourself all the words that I have spoken to you. 

Jer 30:3  For behold, the days are coming,' says the LORD, 'that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah,' says the LORD. 'And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.' " 

Jer 30:4  Now these are the words that the Lord spoke concerning Israel and Judah. 

Jer 30:5  "For thus says the LORD: 'We have heard a voice of trembling, Of fear, and not of peace. 

Jer 30:6  Ask now, and see, Whether a man is ever in labor with child? So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins Like a woman in labor, And all faces turned pale? 

Jer 30:7  Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob's trouble, But he shall be saved out of it. 

Jer 30:8  'For it shall come to pass in that day,' Says the LORD of hosts, 'That I will break his yoke from your neck, And will burst your bonds; Foreigners shall no more enslave them. 

Jer 30:9  But they shall serve the LORD their God, And David their king, Whom I will raise up for them. 

Jer 30:10  'Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,' says the LORD, 'Nor be dismayed, O Israel; For behold, I will save you from afar, And your seed from the land of their captivity. Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet, And no one shall make him afraid. 


Is this what you call "rightly dividing" the Word?

.

baberean2,

1. It has a prophetic perspective to it starting in verse 7; Alas for the Day is great! Time of Jacob's trouble they will be saved.
This points to the actual Day of the Lord which is coming and the Time of Jacob's Trouble is the 2nd half of the Tribulation that the nation of Israel gets saved to fulfill their gifts and callings Romans 11:25-29.

2. Jeremiah 30:8; breaking the yoke from their neck and bursting their bonds and foreigners never more enslaving them in the big picture and context never happened.
After Babylon there was Medo-Persia, Greece and Roman oppression Daniel 2:31-40 and Daniel 7.
The Jews rejected Jesus Matthew 23:37 and pronounced judgement on the nation in Matthew 24:1-2 which happened in 70 A.D.

3. Jeremiah 30:9 says the Jews will serve the Lord their God
and David their King God will raise up.
David was long dead before Jeremiah came along and he wasn't raised up while he was on earth.

4. Jeremiah 30:10 is about Israel whose name was Jacob when all will be quiet and safe which will be in the KoH reign and that is when David will be their king Ezekiel 37:24.

5. This is why your extreme spiritual Jew theory is wrong.
That is why the nation of Israel receiving the New Covenant on the Day of Pentecost was not a fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:31-34 context and Hebrews 8:7-13, the full context which deals with Israel knowing all things and not having to be taught. Israel has to be purged Daniel 9:24-27 and repent and become a nation born in one day when Zion travails she will bring forth her children Isaiah 66:8.
You need to learn how to rightly divide the word and start believing the real truth which you don't believe right now. As usual, you are wrong!!!!! Jerry kelso
 
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It is written in 1st Cor. And what did JESUS say? He told them.. I go to make a place/home for you. WHERE did Jesus go? I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. Jesus then says.. you know WHERE I am going. He just said it.. then said.. come back receive you..so that where WHERE I am you may be also.

So.. shout voice.. trump.. dead rise.. then we get caught up with them to meet Christ no on the ground for.. that is when He gathers the nations and judges them. No.. to be with Christ forever. The wrath of God is not coming on a few cities but the WORLD. There is NO place to hide. And Lot.. HE said.. As long as you are still here I CAN DO NOTHING. ONE..just ONE righteous man stopped GODS wrath. There are more then one here.

So.. for me.. I take what Jesus said.. not what someone says they think Jesus really meant or some verse what it really means. Jesus said.. I will come back and get you so where I am you will be. We know HE went to His Fathers house to make a home. Gee.. just like and OLD Jewish wedding. He goes off makes them a home. She stays behind not knowing when he comes. Then about a year later.. comes back mostly at night with some friends. Makes a loud noise. Gets her.. takers her back to his fathers house for about a week.

Now.. if someone does not believe.. then for them Christ as it is written will come as a thief in the night. As also to the world. That comes takes something and leaves yet you never know he came. Just believe what Jesus said.. He said.. He is coming to get you. So why not just believe it will be any moment.. every moment I live.. THIS IS that moment. You will never miss Him. And He will NEVER go against your will. Will not force anyone to go. Has to believe
 
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BABerean2

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baberean2,

1. It has a prophetic perspective to it starting in verse 7; Alas for the Day is great! Time of Jacob's trouble they will be saved.
This points to the actual Day of the Lord which is coming and the Time of Jacob's Trouble is the 2nd half of the Tribulation that the nation of Israel gets saved to fulfill their gifts and callings Romans 11:25-29.

2. Jeremiah 30:8; breaking the yoke from their neck and bursting their bonds and foreigners never more enslaving them in the big picture and context never happened.
After Babylon there was Medo-Persia, Greece and Roman oppression Daniel 2:31-40 and Daniel 7.
The Jews rejected Jesus Matthew 23:37 and pronounced judgement on the nation in Matthew 24:1-2 which happened in 70 A.D.

3. Jeremiah 30:9 says the Jews will serve the Lord their God
and David their King God will raise up.
David was long dead before Jeremiah came along and he wasn't raised up while he was on earth.

4. Jeremiah 30:10 is about Israel whose name was Jacob when all will be quiet and safe which will be in the KoH reign and that is when David will be their king Ezekiel 37:24.

5. This is why your extreme spiritual Jew theory is wrong.
That is why the nation of Israel receiving the New Covenant on the Day of Pentecost was not a fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:31-34 context and Hebrews 8:7-13, the full context which deals with Israel knowing all things and not having to be taught. Israel has to be purged Daniel 9:24-27 and repent and become a nation born in one day when Zion travails she will bring forth her children Isaiah 66:8.
You need to learn how to rightly divide the word and start believing the real truth which you don't believe right now. As usual, you are wrong!!!!! Jerry kelso

Jerry,

Did you notice the word "captivity" in verses 3 and 10?

Have you ever heard of the Babylonian captivity?

.
 
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jerry kelso

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Jerry,

Did you notice the word "captivity" in verses 3 and 10?

Have you ever heard of the Babylonian captivity?

.

1. The Babylonian captivity was only temporary and the rest of them to and will be.
Prophetically, David was not alive during Jeremiah's time or any of the other or the one to come but will be in the KoH. This is just like a double reference of sorts.

2. I have told you time and again that you have tunnel vision and are one sided and that is why you cannot come to the truth of the big picture and it's context. Jerry kelso
 
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BABerean2

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The Babylonian captivity was only temporary and the rest of them to and will be.
Prophetically, David was not alive during Jeremiah's time or any of the other or the one to come but will be in the KoH. This is just like a double reference of sorts.

I would rather have "tunnel vision" than double-talk.

"This is just like a double reference of sorts." , Jerry Kelso

Either Jeremiah was talking about the Babylonian captivity, or he was not.
This is the truth of the big picture in context.

The 50 reasons for the pretrib doctrine and more rapture questions are all about Dispensationalists needing to get the Church off the planet so that God can deal again with modern Israel under the Old Covenant system, which is now "obsolete" based on Hebrews 8:13.

The truth is that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, completely destroys the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology.

All of those promoting the man-made doctrine need to find something else to fulfill their time.

A New Covenant Bible study would be a good place to start.


.
 
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On another thread i asked if you can find in scripture that when we are changed in the twinkling of an eye that we go to heaven after meeting the Lord in the air. No such scripture was found. I would like to ask a few more questions


1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] BEHOLD, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The above scripture points out that “we shall all be changed” as the LAST TRUMPET is blown.

MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period. No matter how ya figure it, you cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown before the tribulation or at mid tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation. Yes, the trumpet blown in Matt.24 is the last trumpet of 1Cor.15

ISAIAH 27 [12] And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be GATHERED ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel.[13] And it shall come to pass in that day, that THE GREAT TRUMPET SHALL BE BLOWN, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, AND SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD IN THE HOLY MOUNT AT JERUSALEM.

The GREAT trumpet {also found in Matt.24} shall be blown. His people gathered. Its off to Jerusalem. To the kingdom. Not headin for heaven

So. What about it. Is the "last trumpet" really the last trumpet as the scriptures point out. How do the Rapturist get around these scriptures?

REV. 7:9 explains where we are and Rev. 7:14 confirms the rapture OUT OF the Great Tribulation: "After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, for every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands... "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
Vs 11 says "all the angels were standing around the throne" which proves it was a vision of heaven.
 
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