Having some serious doubts...help?
- Thread starter lotsandlotsofquestions
- Start date
Acts2:38
Well-Known Member
- Apr 14, 2017
- 1,593
- 660
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
I didn't say that you did explain it away, I said how will you explain it away basically.
1 Timothy 2:3-6... key point you are missing "ransom for ALL" and "all men to be saved" This is everyone. The whole earth. Not just an elect people chosen before time began.
1 John 2:2...Key point you are missing "propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only (talking to people who are Christians), but also for the whole world (ALL men period not just elect).
John 3:17...Key point "but that the whole world should be saved". The should indicating by their choice of obedience to the gospel or not, ALL PEOPLE.
This is just a small sample of verses too. I have tons more. These verses directly refute the thought of predestination.
You didn't do a very good job explaining your predestination doctrine. It sounded like you agree that predestination is wrong by the way you explained things.
Upvote
0
ICONO'CLAST
Well-Known Member
Your verses did not address predestination.....Predestination is 100% correct when understood how God used it.
There are many areas of theology. You cannot just mix them up....Do you want to learn? I will help you if you want help.
Upvote
0
ICONO'CLAST
Well-Known Member
"Acts2:38,
[I didn't say that you did explain it away, I said how will you explain it away basically.]
okay lets look...
[1 Timothy 2:3-6... key point you are missing "ransom for ALL" and "all men to be saved" This is everyone. The whole earth.]
Are you saying that every person ever born is going to be saved?
[ Not just an elect people chosen before time began.]
Do you believe in the biblical teaching of election?
1 John 2:2...Key point you are missing "propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only (talking to people who are Christians), but also for the whole world (ALL men period not just elect).
Do you claim that non elect persons will be saved?
[John 3:17...Key point "but that the whole world should be saved". The should indicating by their choice of obedience to the gospel or not, ALL PEOPLE.]
What if they never hear the gospel?
[This is just a small sample of verses too. I have tons more. These verses directly refute the thought of predestination.]
You obviously have never studied biblical predestination
[You didn't do a very good job explaining your predestination doctrine. It sounded like you agree that predestination is wrong by the way you explained things.]
I have not yet begun ,
[I didn't say that you did explain it away, I said how will you explain it away basically.]
okay lets look...
[1 Timothy 2:3-6... key point you are missing "ransom for ALL" and "all men to be saved" This is everyone. The whole earth.]
Are you saying that every person ever born is going to be saved?
[ Not just an elect people chosen before time began.]
Do you believe in the biblical teaching of election?
1 John 2:2...Key point you are missing "propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only (talking to people who are Christians), but also for the whole world (ALL men period not just elect).
Do you claim that non elect persons will be saved?
[John 3:17...Key point "but that the whole world should be saved". The should indicating by their choice of obedience to the gospel or not, ALL PEOPLE.]
What if they never hear the gospel?
[This is just a small sample of verses too. I have tons more. These verses directly refute the thought of predestination.]
You obviously have never studied biblical predestination
[You didn't do a very good job explaining your predestination doctrine. It sounded like you agree that predestination is wrong by the way you explained things.]
I have not yet begun ,
Upvote
0
Acts2:38
Well-Known Member
- Apr 14, 2017
- 1,593
- 660
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
No. I am saying, if they follow the gospel for salvation, by their own free will choice, from the heart, they could be saved if they remain faithful.
Obviously, not everyone is going to follow the path God would wish for them to choose. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9.
Election in the fact that it represents a "class" of people. The "class" of people called Christians. Those are the elect. Christians that obeyed the gospel call.
Galatians 3:27; Romans 6:1-4
I am also saying that those who do obey the gospel call, are people that choose from their own free will to obey the gospel and its commands. Which is for ALL people to have that chance, not just a predestined people God picked out before our creation, but those who willingly decide to follow God.
No. If one does not obey the gospel, the gospel states the consequences. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
I can only speak on the oracles of God (1 Peter 4:11). I don't know men's hearts like God, nor do I claim to. However, I can say what the bible states. This is a matter that is up to God as I do not know mens hearts or Gods "higher" ways.
I'm sorry to say, your assumption is wrong here. Predestination is basically stating that God predetermined or destined people for a fate, purpose, etc. This is not true. God has given us the gift of free will. A person that can decide and be responsible for their own choices. Accountability.
I fully understand this topic sir, maybe it is you that doesn't?
My apologies then as I thought the previous post was your attempt.
Upvote
0
- Mar 24, 2011
- 4,761
- 1,399
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
You are right in the significance of this time in your life. Which way you go right now will determine your future. This is a well trodden path that you're going down, a slippery slope which will lead to denying Christ as your Lord and Savior.
Don't entirely go by the atheist view of things and read some material by Christian Apologists. Read "Is God a moral monster?" by Paul Copan Is God a Moral Monster?: Making Sense of the Old Testament God: Paul Copan: 8601400447840: Amazon.com: Books
You need a real relationship with the Lord which is more than checking off a few boxes. You have to be born again, which means that Gods Spirit will come and indwell you and transform you into a new person. Has that happened to you? If not, then you are not saved and will simply fall away from whatever form of religion that you have. You need to realize what your spiritual position in, and the Lord will reveal that to you. Ask Him and He will show you.
Upvote
0
Karl.C
Active Member
- Jun 4, 2017
- 132
- 34
- 44
- Country
- Australia
- Faith
- Catholic
- Marital Status
- Divorced
No need to apologise, we've all be there at sometime. Back in 2000 my life went down the drain: long term relationhip breakup, mother died, brother dies a month laer, friend went inane and tried to kill me, had an accident & was partially crippled for two years. Life was the complete pits.
I don't remember consciously praying, but one day, at random, I grabbed a book from a stack and sat in the sun with my coffee to have read. It turned out to be the bible. Couldn't be bothered moving so I started reading, and rereading. I'm still at it and always discovering new things that had previously escaped me.
My dad says: when your on a downer listen to Beethovan's 8th (its mega depressing) or Arlo Guthrie's "the FBI song" about the "last guy" (nobody in the world is worse off than him, but the FBI follows him because he found a dime), or read Job in the bible, or watch the news. It is a gaurantee, there is someone worse off than you! So switch from the pessimism. and be psitive...
That advice worked on me!!!
The Orthodox view (RCC, ROC, EOC, OOC etc) is God our Father doesn't rejects us, we reject him. Thus those condemned as not judged as if by a court, and the sentence of condemnation is not set as if by a rule book.
Jesus said he doesn't judge, didn't come to judge etc. Our condemnation is self inflicted, we condemn ourselce. The Church teacers that the sentence is of our choosing. God endows the condemned with his love, and they suffer because they can't bear the love. Consider the contrast of Pentecost & the parody of the rich man in hades. The same single flame is upon each, yet those at Pentecost experience the blessing, the rich man suffering. And who does he turn to for relief, not God but his superstition...
As for infants, the insane, those who haven't received the Gospel or because of an impedient not of their choosing the Orthordox simply hold "scripture gives no guidance. Therefore, as God is omniscient (knows all things) we trust in the righteousness, mercy & Justice of God our Father".
Don't confuse the particularly vile slave laws of the USA, with slave systems elsewhere which were fairly benevolent for their time (think endentured servants, think of your own circumstances if you are an employee). Only in the USA were slaves treated as chattel, like cattle.
I'm not sure what you mean by Christians who condone murder. I'm guessing you mean places like Texas that still practice institutionalised murder. Most countries have abolished the scenario.
Sexism? According to Genesis God created Adam & Eve and called them both "adam" (the Hebrew word for mankind). Scripture says that a husband & wife should be as if one flesh. The trouble is, as the myth of Lilith shows, someone always wants to be on top, dominating the other, rather than co-operating. A.Paul in his traditionalism doesn't help reconcile the contradiction in modern society. The issue is the radical feminists are generally man hater, whereas the suffragettes had/have genuine grips... Its a societal problem that we can't impact except by example = one's own household.
As for science & the other issues you raised: Don't confuse Christianity with USA fundementalism, they are two different things.
Muhammad used the Torah for guidance, and that is why the Quran holds the "people of the book" are under Islam's protection. Unfortunately, most supposed Musims haven't read the Quran (just as most supposed Christians haven't read the OT or NT).
If you read the OT honestly, it is a book that details continuous failure. There isn't a quality character anywhere to be found. This is what makes the book so unique in the world's literature, and why people give it priority...
Upvote
0
Howdy,
Concerning 'slavery' as it is referenced in the Bible, there are a couple things that I should mention that I feel are often overlooked: one is that the nature of 'accepted' Biblical bondservitude is much different than how we know modern slavery to be (which, as we now know it, certainly is reprehensible--you are right to find such a system repulsive... and anti-Christian), and another is that these verses were written at a time before developed economic systems (thus, it was quite commonplace to work as a 'bondservant', when the alternative was homelessness).
Would be happy to discuss any of the other concerns as well. Contemplating the applications of OT law and the manner in which the Epistles are to be understood are some fascinating elements of Christian theology, and I find that considering that played a significant role in my own spiritual development.
Peace be with you!
Last edited:
Upvote
0
ICONO'CLAST
Well-Known Member
You made a mistake in leaving the baptist church which was teaching truth, and have turned to the false teaching of the works based COC.
Water baptism is not mandatory for salvation.
Men do not have free will as you repeatedly claim.
Election does indeed take place before creation.
Predestination is used primarily of the sanctification of the elect.
I will answer fully later on today
Upvote
0
- Jan 10, 2010
- 37,279
- 8,500
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Others
-
- Torment is much worse.
Pick your hell: roasted on a rotisserie
or driving drunk and backing over your
baby sister in the driveway.
Torture may be painful.
Torment is Hell.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
I would first like to suggest that you will get a higher quality of answer if you ask one question or variety of question at a time...but I will show you some also Biblical understandings to one....
!. God takes no pleasure in the condemnation of the wicked (Ezekiel 18 and 33)
2. The only thing that condemns is unbelief (Mark 16; John 3)
3. And this unbelief is not a simple not believing in the Biblical God but a rejection of God and knowledge of God (Romans 1)
We learn from Genesis 3 that what happens is that after succumbing to a certain line of reasoning (partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil) we desire to reject the loving warnings and promises of God and be as a god unto ourselves (Genesis 3:5) and then all through the Bible we see two camps...those self lords who do what is right in their own eyes (see Kings and Chronicles for lists of historic examples). that is, who decide good and evil for themselves, and those who "believe God" like Abraham, Noah, David (which is not the same as believing in God...see James 2:19)...
So when a person is "condemned" or "judged" and sent out of God's presence it is their own doing (OUR sin separates US - Isaiah 59:2)...there is ample witness that God IS (in nature and in human experience and in fulfilled prophecy and more) but they desire in their heart to rule their own life (in Christ you are not your own - 1 Corinthians 6:19-20) and this is the historical cause of all war, dispute, divorce, and so on because someone or some group wants to lord it over another and it is especially notable when two or more who want to be lord conflict (whether husband over wife, clan against clan, tribe against tribe, nation against nation, political or religious persuasion against another, and so on)
What they do not realize is that in what God considers condemnation they are getting their way...He has made a place where they can go and for eternity be THE lord of their own life...God will not be present for them (because they want nothing to do with a God) and anything He would have lovingly provided (Light, order to calm the fires of chaos, water, fellowship, touch, etc.) will not be there because THEY wanted nothing of this so called G-O-D.
In that place made for the rebellious angels (who will continue to exist) they will find themselves, in utter darkness each a lord of a kingdom of one...never to ever have light (God's idea) or fellowship (God's idea) or order (His notion and doing) or satisfaction of any needs (His plan) and they will ever KNOW it was 100% their own doing that brought them to this eternal condition...and figuratively speaking, because of this, there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth and torment forever...
Upvote
0
Acts2:38
Well-Known Member
- Apr 14, 2017
- 1,593
- 660
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
I am interested in hearing why you refuse to believe in the scriptures in context.
From what I read in scripture, the baptist church is not authorized as a church in scripture. They are a denomination (which means separate and apart from the original) and cannot be Christs church, Matthew 16:18-19; Romans 16:16; Acts 2:38; 41; 47. May I ask WHERE in scripture do you see baptist church or that many different churches are okay (Ephesians 4:4-6)? Scripture authorizes just one, Christs church that He established. If only a first century Christian was able to be time warped here. You think he would know what a baptist church is?
There is so much scripture that pertains to immersion in water, the necessity, and examples for you of baptism , "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God" (1 Peter 3:21).
Baptist confuse Acts 2:38 consistently. They think the "for" means "because of".
Here is the Greek word for "for" = εἰς eis, ice; a primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered); into, unto, to, towards, for, among
I just do not see "because of" here, do you? Therefore, for the remission of sins and to receive the Holy Spirit, one must be baptized, in the name of Christ, after repentance.
Do you wash your clothes because they are dirty or do you wash them because they are clean?
Baptists, the way they believe, they wash because they are clean. That is false since you are baptized (in the name of Jesus) for the remission of sins (because you are dirty;Not talking about flesh)
One would be silly to refute such verses as Romans 6:1-4 and Galatians 3:26-27. Baptism is completely necessary.
I have already shown you samples of free will vs predestination and you seem to just not see the key points I shown you. Its almost like I didn't even post them. I will explain it once more later after you explain your end so I know where you are at in your comprehension of this.
I am very interested where you are going to prove that election (of hand picked individuals being saved and others being condemned) from times start. I will await this point with great interest as this is probably where you were taught to twist scripture. This is the ground you stand on and I will show from scripture the false premise of election as Calvinists believe it.
As far as your small intro into the meaning of predestination, now you are trying to trick me on the meaning of such?
Predestination, is predestination, not for sanctification. They mean it as the word implies. They mean it as a preset number of people chosen to be saved in Christ and a preset number of people to be condemned. This idea at its core is completely false. I will see your example before I move on here.
Upvote
0
2ndly...YHVH (who is the Word or Son) speaks in many places about those who will "live" (by grace though faith) and not all have "accepted Christ as their savior" in the sense modern evangelicals teach. When a man does what is right on God's eye's even if He has not heard of or obeyed the Torah he/she is considered a law unto themselves....when an unrighteous one turns to God in faith rejecting his unrighteous ways and does what is right...God counts this as coming to Him though the Son...so when a person who is not an Israelite or a Christian (like Noah or Abraham) "Believes God" He COUNTS this as Righteousness...so when we get to be in His presence (either before the parousia or after) we will have three surprises...
a) there will be many there we would have thought would not be there
b) many we thought would be there will not be there
c) we will be there
God does not simply condemn all who do not accept Christ in the way we define it but He condemns all who consciously reject Him...the others after Christ (non-Christians who in the light they have been given turn to and consistently seek God) will be judged by a different measure then the rejectors...Ezekiel 18 and 33 will be applied as described briefly above...
In the end remember He is the judge not us, not our denominational spin, not our theologies, not the name of our Religion...even many in the Church (see Matt 25) are self deceived and in the final moment He will say unto them "I NEVER knew you"....
a) there will be many there we would have thought would not be there
b) many we thought would be there will not be there
c) we will be there
God does not simply condemn all who do not accept Christ in the way we define it but He condemns all who consciously reject Him...the others after Christ (non-Christians who in the light they have been given turn to and consistently seek God) will be judged by a different measure then the rejectors...Ezekiel 18 and 33 will be applied as described briefly above...
In the end remember He is the judge not us, not our denominational spin, not our theologies, not the name of our Religion...even many in the Church (see Matt 25) are self deceived and in the final moment He will say unto them "I NEVER knew you"....
Upvote
0
CrystalDragon
Well-Known Member
No offense, but saying things like that will neither help the OP or me. It only seems to say "God only loves you if you believe in Jesus and if not you'll be tortured for eternity".
Upvote
0
disciple1
Newbie
You don't know where anyone is going.
James chapter 4
11 Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister[d] or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
- Jan 10, 2010
- 37,279
- 8,500
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Others
It's not really our efforts:
(John 5:39-47)
19Now there was a rich man dressed in purple and fine linen, who lived each day in joyous splendor. 20And a beggar named Lazarus lay at his gate, covered with sores 21and longing to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22One day the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. And the rich man also died and was buried. 23In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side.
24So he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. For I am in agony in this fire.’
25But Abraham answered, ‘Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things. But now he is comforted here, while you are left to suffer. 26And besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that even those who wish cannot cross from here to you, nor can anyone cross from there to us.’
27‘Then I beg you, father,’ he said, ‘send Lazarus to my father’s house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them so they will not also end up in this place of torment.’
29But Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let your brothers listen to them.’
30‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone is sent to them from the dead, they will repent.’
31Then Abraham said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”
10 he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."
Upvote
0
I have a gnat tormenting me at this very moment.
The term is so broad, we can only hope to get some idea of what it means when put with other Scripture on Hell.
My whole point is before the OP says God is bad for being unfair with this terrible Hell he speaks of, we need to be sure it is that terrible, and define exactly what Hell is, and from what I've gathered over the years, God has intentionally made it to where we cannot pinpoint what exactly it entails.
Meaning the OP is based on supposition.
Upvote
0
- Jan 10, 2010
- 37,279
- 8,500
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Others
Upvote
0
- Mar 17, 2015
- 17,188
- 9,197
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
Hades -- we learn in this account more about Hades, which we can see is a place of suffering, torment, of paying for one's sins -- as the rich man in this account is paying for ignoring Lazarus begging in need. Later, we learn in that all in Hades will be brought out in the end of this age to face the day of judgement, and then Hades itself will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelations chapter 20). We know that those not given eternal life will "perish" there, as it will "destroy" their souls in the "second death". (in contrast the devil and his angels might suffer without perishing)
Last edited:
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
- Jan 10, 2010
- 37,279
- 8,500
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Others
I'm sure that is much worse than if it was torturing you.
No. Stop> Please, I give up!
Upvote
0
Similar threads
