The Double Message of Eternal Security.

stuart lawrence · Jun 28, 2017

Jason0047 said:
So you believe in Antinomianism?

Anyways, I have already been over this dead horse and have beat it many times already.
I keep pointing you to Ephesians 5:5 and you just ignore it.

Paul's struggle with the good part (or the righteous aspect of the Old Law that has carried on over into the New Covenant). This good part or righteous aspect of the Old law is mentioned in Romans 8:3-4. We see a similar description of this righteous aspect of the Old Law wrapped in the New in Romans 13:8-10.

This is why you are confused.
You are trying to label the Law in Romans 7:14-24 as being exclusively NT Law when that is not the case.
The Law in Romans 7:14-24 is both an OT Law and NT Law.
Yet, Paul is not saying he is not under the NT law of not coveting.
It is an NT Law.
It is not an exclusive OT Law.
The Old Law has passed away.
Not all Law.
For if all Law passed away, then nobody could technically sin or break God's laws.

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Well done Jason. You have finally accepted rom ch7 concerns old AND new covenant law.
And Pauls struggles, as mentioned in that chapter related to the moral law, NOT Torah/ legalistic law. For the legalistic law could be faultlessly obeyed.
Rom ch7 is all about the need to die to a law of righteousness, and it is all about the moral law in this regard.

What you cannot understand( and not only you) is removing a law of righteousness concerning the moral law, gives no born again Christian a licence to go out and happily sin as much as they want.
That is the problem, that lack of understanding, that stops many accepting the message. But many wilfully refuse to accept it, for they want a righteousness of their own under the law

Bible Highlighter · Jun 28, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
Well done Jason. You have finally accepted rom ch7 concerns old AND new covenant law.
And Pauls struggles, as mentioned in that chapter related to the moral law, NOT Torah/ legalistic law. For the legalistic law could be faultlessly obeyed.
Rom ch7 is all about the need to die to a law of righteousness, and it is all about the moral law in this regard.

What you cannot understand( and not only you) is removing a law of righteousness concerning the moral law, gives no born again Christian a licence to go out and happily sin as much as they want.
That is the problem that stops many accepting the message. But many wilfully refuse to accept it, for they want a righteousness of their own under the law

I was re-editing my post before you replied.
I was not clear on my thoughts because it is very late here (and I need to sleep).
But just so that we are clear here, we are still not in agreement.

I am saying that:

#1. The Law on coveting is an OT and NT law when looking at the whole course of human history.
#2. The Law on coveting is no longer an OT Law anymore.
#3. The Law on coveting is now an NT Law because the OT Law has passed away.
#4. Romans 7:14-24 coveting struggle was merely a point that He needed Jesus (See Romans 8:3-4). It is not saying that the Law of coveting is abrogated (For we clearly see that the Law of coveting is still in effect in Ephesians 5:5). So Paul's point was that in order to keep the good aspect or part of the Old Law, he needs Jesus. We fulfill this law on coveting (that is now an NT law that is still effect) by putting on the Lord Jesus Christ (See Romans 13:14).

Anyways, I hope this helps you to see where I am coming from.
May God's love shine upon you today.
And please be well.

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stuart lawrence · Jun 28, 2017

Jason0047 said:
I was re-editing my post before you replied.
I was not clear on my thoughts because it is very late here (and I need to sleep).
But just so that we are clear here, we are still not in agreement.

I am saying that:

#1. The Law on coveting is an OT and NT law when looking at the whole course of human history.
#2. The Law on coveting is no longer an OT Law anymore.
#3. The Law on coveting is now an NT Law because the OT Law has passed away.
#4. Romans 7:14-24 coveting struggle was merely a point that He needed Jesus (See Romans 8:3-4). It is not saying that the Law of coveting is abrogated (For we clearly see that the Law of coveting is still in effect in Ephesians 5:5). So Paul's point was that in order to keep the good aspect or part of the Old Law (that is now no more), he needs Jesus. We fulfill this law on coveting (that is now an NT law that is still effect) by the power of Jesus Christ (See Romans 13:14).

Anyways, may God's love shine upon you today.
And please be well.

...

I have never said thou shalt not covet has been abolished.
Christ did not come to abolish the law. He came to abolish a law of righteousness for the believer. Key difference.
Anyways. We now both agree. Rom ch7 refers to applicable NC law

Bible Highlighter · Jun 28, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
I have never said thou shalt not covet gas been abolished.
Christ did not come to abolish the law. He came to abolish a law of righteousness for the believer. Key difference.
Anyways. We now both agree. Rom ch7 refers to applicable NC law

You are basically saying that there is no spiritual death for any believer if they break the NT Law on coveting.

But the wages of sin is death.
And Paul essentially says in Ephesians 5:5 that one will not inherit the Kingdom of God if they covet.

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stuart lawrence · Jun 28, 2017

Jason0047 said:
You are basically saying that there is no spiritual death for any believer if they break the NT Law on coveting.

But the wages of sin is death.
And Paul says in Ephesians 5:5 that one will not inherit the Kingdom of God if they covet.

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Do we then nullify the law by this faith( a righteousness of faith in Christ not observing the law) Not at all! Rather we uphold the law rom3:31

stuart lawrence · Jun 28, 2017

Paul believed sin shall not be your master for you are not under a righteousness of observing the law, but a righteousness of faith in Christ.
Impossible for the natural mind to understand or accept. Only the Holy Spirit can turn on the light, if you are willing to let him

Bible Highlighter · Jun 28, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
Do we then nullify the law by this faith( a righteousness of faith in Christ not observing the law) Not at all! Rather we uphold the law rom3:31

Paul is talking about Initial Salvation in Romans 3. For Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism." See Romans 3:1 and Galatians 5:2.

Ephesians 5:5 still shows spiritual death for anyone disobeying the law on coveting.
So your interpretation that you can believe on Jesus as a means of taking away your penalty of breaking the law on coveting is simply not true.

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stuart lawrence · Jun 28, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Paul is talking about Initial Salvation in Romans 3. For Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism." See Romans 3:1 and Galatians 5:2.

Ephesians 5:5 still shows spiritual death for anyone disobeying the law on coveting.
So the interpretation that you can believe on Jesus and not worry about breaking the law on coveting is false.

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Quote my post where I stated the Christian should not be concerned if they break the law/ sin.

And no, Paul is not referring to initial salvation, that is ridiculous. Initial salvation is momentary. No time involved to seek to obey the law to be righteous

stuart lawrence · Jun 28, 2017

The law God desires the Christian to keep is in their heart. Therefore no Christian would not be concerned if they wilfully went against what is in their heart. Neither would any non Christian.
It is not enough just to rigidly quote the letter. You have to understand it, and it's practical application in a believers life

Bible Highlighter · Jun 28, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
Quote my post where I stated the Christian should not be concerned if they break the law/ sin.

So you believe sin separates a believer from God?

You said:
And no, Paul is not referring to initial salvation, that is ridiculous. Initial salvation is momentary. No time involved to seek to obey the law to be righteous

Romans 3:1 says "what profit is there of circumcision?"

The Jews were trying to get the Christians to think they needed to be circumcised so as to be initially saved or right with God. But Paul said if you seek to be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2). So this is dealing with Initial or Ultimate Salvation and it is not dealing with the topic of Sanctification (Which is the next natural step or stage in the salvation process).

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stuart lawrence · Jun 28, 2017

The power of sin is the law( of righteousness) 1cor15:56

This primarily refers to the moral law, for scripture establishes the legalistic law could be faultlessly obeyed.
Remove some things power and it must weaken. Hence:
For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law but under grace
Rom6:14

stuart lawrence · Jun 28, 2017

Jason0047 said:
So you believe sin separates a believer from God?

Romans 3:1 says "what profit is there of circumcision?"

The Jews were trying to get the Christians to think they needed to be circumcised so as to be initially saved or right with God. But Paul said if you seek to be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2). So this is dealing with Initial or Ultimate Salvation and it is not dealing with the topic of Sanctification (Which is the next natural step or stage in the salvation process).

...

Sin damages your relationship with God in regard to wilfull sin.
Your conscience is seered as with a knife going through butter, for you are going against what is in your heart. You have no rest, and no peace until you come before your Father in heaven and repent of your folly.

The power of sin us the law. Live under it, and sins power remains firmly in place in your life. So no, not being under law does not refer to initial salvation solely

stuart lawrence · Jun 28, 2017

The law got transferred from tablets of Stone to tablets of human hearts( 2cor3:3)

The only people not under a law of righteousness are those who have the law in their hearts.
What it is in your heart, you in your heart want to obey. And you have a conscience when you dont
No licence to sin for those born again

Bible Highlighter · Jun 28, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
Sin damages your relationship with God in regard to wilfull sin.

Yes, sin damages a relationship with God by the fact that it separates the believer from God and the salvation they have in Him.

Actually, there are several passages that tell us that you cannot be out of fellowship with God and be saved.

#1. 1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Life is associated with eternal life or salvation.

#2. John 17:3 says eternal life is in knowing the one true God, Jesus Christ. Knowing implies a fellowship. So if you don't know Jesus, then you don't have life (Salvation).

#3. Romans 8:9 says if he a man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.

#4. Psalms 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).

#5. John 15:6 says if a man does not abide in Him, he is cast forth and burned.

#6. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

#7. Romans 11:21-22 says if you do not continue in his goodness you will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that you are branch and Christ is the tree. We need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief.

#8. 2 Corinthians 13:5 says,
"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates."

You said:
Your conscience is seered as with a knife going through butter, for you are going against what is in your heart. You have no rest, and no peace until you come before your Father in heaven and repent of your folly.

Let's see what the Bible actually says about a conscience seared.

"Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron." (1 Timothy 4:2).
This is context to (a) departing from the faith and (b) doctrines of devils.
"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;" (1 Timothy 4:1).

You said:
The power of sin us the law. Live under it, and sins power remains firmly in place in your life.

By what you said so far, I understand you to be saying that you are under God's laws but you are not under these laws salvation wise (i.e. that keeping or breaking them has nothing to do with your salvation). The problem is that the Law is not a bad thing. The Law is holy, just, and good. God's intention was never for us to sin. The Law was supposed to be a school master or teacher that was supposed to bring us unto Christ. The Law of Moses was added because of transgressions. Man was get really sinful, so they needed a written Law in order for Man to be held more accountable to God. The Old Law was a way of showing their need for a Savior.

Jude 1:4 NIV condemns turning God's grace into a license for immorality.
Jesus still taught that keeping the commandments is life.

For Jesus says, "if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).
And John says,
"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).
"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).
"He that committeth sin is of the devil." (1 John 3:8).

You said:
So no, not being under law does not refer to initial salvation solely

I also said "Ultimate Salvation."
Also, the condition to not being under the Law is if you are led by the Spirit.

"But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law." (Galatians 5:18).
Seeing the Spirit never wants a person to sin because the Spirit convicts the world of sin (John 16:8), one is not led by the Spirit if they think that not being under the Law means that they can commit serious sins and still be saved.

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Bible Highlighter · Jun 28, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
The law got transferred from tablets of Stone to tablets of human hearts( 2cor3:3)

The only people not under a law of righteousness are those who have the law in their hearts.
What it is in your heart, you in your heart want to obey. And you have a conscience when you dont
No licence to sin for those born again

David said he hid God's Word in his heart so that he may not sin against the Lord (Psalms 119:11).
So if the law has been truly transferred to your heart, have you discovered that you have not sinned against the Lord as a result?

Also, are you saying that when you do sin, you are not thinking it is automatically paid for by Jesus and that repentance is not truly necessary for your salvation?

I got the impression that you could sin and yet still be saved because you said God's laws do not relate to your salvation (Which is turning God's grace into a license to sin on some level).

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Bible Highlighter · Jun 28, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
The power of sin is the law( of righteousness) 1cor15:56

This primarily refers to the moral law, for scripture establishes the legalistic law could be faultlessly obeyed.
Remove some things power and it must weaken. Hence:
For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law but under grace
Rom6:14

Jesus believed that the Pharisees could have obeyed the moral law because he said,

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." (Matthew 23:23).

He said they omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, faith (and "love" - see Luke 11:42).

Love is a part of the moral law.
Jesus says, "these" you ought (i.e. should have) done instead.
Why would Jesus deceive them into thinking to do something that they could never do?

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stuart lawrence · Jun 28, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Jesus believed that the Pharisees could have obeyed the moral law because he said,

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." (Matthew 23:23).

He said they omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, faith (and "love" - see Luke 11:42).

Love is a part of the moral law.
Jesus says, "these" you ought (i.e. should have) done instead.
Why would Jesus deceive them into thinking to do something that they could never do?

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You quote the letter without understanding the true message.
You are not alone, many do the same

Bible Highlighter · Jun 28, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
You quote the letter without understanding the true message.
You are not alone, many do the same

You know you can explain what the letter of God's Word says here instead of just saying I do not understand it. For if you believe it says something else, clearly we should see the context support that idea.

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stuart lawrence · Jun 28, 2017

Jason0047 said:
You know you can explain what the letter of God's Word says here instead of just saying I do not understand it. For if you believe it says something else, clearly we should see the context support that idea.

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I have explained it time and time again. And even when you are shown to be plainly wrong you cannot bring yourself to admit it.
You have eyes but refuse to see
And ears but refuse to hear

stuart lawrence · Jun 28, 2017

BTW

The Christian is not under law unto righteousness, as I have countless times told you, but from one of your previous posts you still do not understand

The Double Message of Eternal Security.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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