Soteriology question?

Mark Noo said:

(first off, I apologize, some things I cite, some I don't. If your a Calvanist, I assume you have a higher level of training than the average Christian in America. Anyway this question is bugging me so I will hazard it)

Romans 10:17

So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.​

If I was elected before the foundations of the world and if I am a Christian because the Holy Spirit is inside of me, why do I need to hear the word.

I think it is safe to assume that the Holy Spirit already knows the word, that he has a perfect theology while I just stumble along with my understanding.

So if he doesn't need to hear the word, why do I? Isn't faith a gift from God. The thing is that language sounds participatory. Like I need to do something, even if it is minimal, like just being in earshot.

So that is troubling.
Next is the parable of the sower. Here is a quote from Mathew 13:

18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”​

I think I get the part that the Holy Spirit is what makes an Elect persons soil ready to receive.

19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path.​

Does this mean that the person is Elect but it is not an effective call.

Also, another assumption that I make is that Satan has a far better theology than I do and he seems to think he can stop people being saved by acting on them. Implying that humans have something to do in the process.
On the other hand, Satan is crazy, he misquoted scripture to the Jesus (the"word become flesh")when he was tempting him. Only a lunatic would misquote scripture to its author.

...........
Does this seem to you like man might be participating in some part of his salvation?

Perhaps what I should be asking is for the best proof texts from scripture that support Election.
the problem with that is that election is everywhere in the Bible.
Maybe what I want are the strongest scriptural cites for man "participating" in his own salvation.

Thank you for your help. This ideas is not yet formed, so I apologize for the rambling.

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The one who ordains the ends, also ordains the means.

God gives the elect the ability to understand and accept the gospel, but it is up to the individual to discover what the gospel is and think it through and apply it to their life.

The means of Grace are essential. God provides the motivation (the inward call), and the preacher/commentator provides the gospel message (the outward call). When both of these come together, you have a saved person.

Read this: Doctrines of Grace

redacted, sorry didn't realize was a denom specific forum

Dave-W said:

Mark - you are seeing the weaknesses of calvinism.

Our walk with the Lord has ALWAYS been participatory - all the way back to Adam naming the animals and tilling the Garden.

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Petros2015 said:

It sounds to me from the parable of the sower that you have a seed planted...

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This is "Ask a Calvinist" subforum. Why are you two answering here? Please refrain from more comments.

Mark Noo said:

...Anyway this question is bugging me so I will hazard it)
Romans 10:17

So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.​

If I was elected before the foundations of the world and if I am a Christian because the Holy Spirit is inside of me, why do I need to hear the word.

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Simple. If you had not heard the word, you would NOT be a Christian.

It's not as though you were a pagan one day and had never heard the Gospel or even the name of Christ, but then all of a sudden you were filled with a belief in Jesus as Lord and Savior and wanted to follow all of his teachings.

Mark Noo said:

Romans 10:17
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
If I was elected before the foundations of the world and if I am a Christian because the Holy Spirit is inside of me, why do I need to hear the word.

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"Word" there in Romans 10:17, is not a reference to scripture, but is "Rhema", which is a reference to God speaking to you.

We receive faith when God speaks to us.

7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7


Noah responded to God in obedience, when God told him to prepare the Ark.

Noah received faith when God spoke to him.

Noah made the choice to respond in obedience to God, and was declared righteous, according to the law or principle of faith.


Faith without the "work" or "corresponding action" of obedience is dead.

20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:20-21

The "work" that Abraham did, was obedience: He obeyed God to offer up his son Isaac.

Work = The effort obedience requires.

This is the law of faith, and how faith works; The principle of faith.

Faith without the action of obedience is dead, and will not produce the divine result that God intended.

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Romans 3:27


Example:

20 And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. 21 For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” 22 But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour. Matthew 9:20-22

The woman with the issue of blood had faith in her heart, but it was when she acted and moved to touch the hem of His garment, that the power was released from the Lord to heal her.


Work = The effort obedience requires.



JLB

Mark Noo said:

So it is not hearing the word. It is when the Spirit speaks it to you. The power is in the speaker, not in the word. This might explain why people who have been sitting in the pews of churches for years suddenly "get it". Is this what you mean?

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The word in Romans 10:17 is Rhema, not Logos.

Logos is used to define Jesus as the Word, as well as scripture or message, or teaching.

Rhema is used to describe that word which is spoken, such as when God speaks to us.


Faith comes when God speaks to us, not when we read scripture.

If God is speaking through a person such as a prophet, or an apostle He sent to preach the Gospel, or speaking directly to those of His people such as Abraham, Noah, Enoch, Moses... it is then that we have faith that comes from hearing God speak to us.

7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7


There were no scriptures in the days of Noah, as God spoke to him, and warned him of the flood to come, instructing him to build an Ark.

When God spoke to Noah to build the Ark, Noak then had faith, but it was when Noah acted on what God told him to do, that faith was "activated and made alive, producing in Noah the divine ability beyond his own to accomplish this great task.

IOW, the divine power [grace] to accomplish what Noah could not do, in and of himself, came through his obedience to do what God spoke to him to do.


Faith without this work of obedience id dead, just as a body without the spirit is dead, and does not accomplish anything.

20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:20-22

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?


The works being described here is obedience; the corresponding act of obedience to the word of God.

Works = the effort obedience requires.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26



JLB

Mark Noo said:

I don't understand this. If we are Christian because the Spirit enters us, than we one second the Spirit is not in us and the next he is. Is that correct?

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You're asking me, and my answer is "no." That's also the view of all the older Christian churches.

You are not Godless one moment and then the Holy Spirit invades you and you suddenly are aware that Jesus Christ is the Lord. Absolutely not. We are saved by Faith in Christ's redeeming sacrifice and the way that we are brought to Faith is by hearing the Gospel, called "the word."

We then believe and follow. It's not from some brainstorm that the Holy Spirit dumps on different people totally "out of the blue."

The regenerative act of God via the power of the Holy Spirit (Eze. 36:26) restores that which was lost in the sin of Adam. This is an instantaneous and wholly monergistic action, for the unregenerated man possesses no moral ability to choose wisely (Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph. 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14).

Once regenerated, the person now possesses the moral ability to believe and will not not want to believe. This is synergism, the man's free will act, where free will here defined as choosing according to one's greatest inclinations at the moment one so chooses. The regenerated man will want—greatest inclination—to believe. He will do so. God is not doing the believing for the regenerated man, but God will certainly be acting, according to His ordained free, necessary, or contingent means, to ensure that the now believing man will persevere in his belief.

The preaching of the Gospel of the free and sovereign grace of God in Christ Jesus the Lord alone is the power of God unto salvation to them that believe. There is no salvation apart from the preaching of the Gospel of Christ.

I will give you an illustration. A glass receives water passively without contributing anything except to be filled. That is how the Spirit comes to a man with the power of the Gospel. The mani is filled and is born from above. He had nothing to do with the second birth any more tHan his first. He now lives and hears the Gospel with power.

Then because he is born from above he takes that glass and drinks it for himself. He can do nothing else for the water is precious to him and he must have it.