The Double Message of Eternal Security.

1stcenturylady

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The Bible testifies against you. It says man is wretched. It says our righteousness is as filthy rags. It says that the best state of man is nothing but vanity (sin).
Life itself testifies against you. No man has ever achieved what you are espousing since the Cross of Christ. Name the sinless men since Christ's resurrection. If your doctrine is true, we should have a list of men that have reached perfection, men who sin not.

Christ is the way, the truth, the life. He provides the covering, it is His righteousness that is imputed towards us. We cleave unto Christ!

In Christ
Daniel

I hope Jason keeps plugging along, preaching the same thing the apostles did for a long, long time.

Your post here seems to put Jesus as your scapegoat, so you can live with an invisibility cloak over sewage. That is NOT the gospel. Jesus died to cleanse us from not only our sin, but the DESIRE to sin. We are dead to sin because we have been given Christ's Spirit to walk in. We have the power of God working in us.
 
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stuart lawrence

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I hope Jason keeps plugging along, preaching the same thing the apostles did for a long, long time.

.

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law
Rom3:20

Jason says:

Righteousness for the Christian is observing the law/ Commandments. 1,050 of them
 
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1stcenturylady

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Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law
Rom3:20

Jason says:

Righteousness for the Christian is observing the law/ Commandments. 1,050 of them

Right. I agree. It is only by the Holy Spirit we receive AFTER becoming Christ's do we receive power over sin. Roman 3:20 is talking Old Covenant. The Spirit is New Covenant.
 
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(Titus 3:3-8)....
3 "For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

Notice the theme here Jason, it's about hate. As a Christian we love our Neighbor as ourselves. God desires mercy, the same mercy He has shown unto us.

But you do not truly believe you have to love God to be saved, though.
You either believe serious sin does not separate a believer from God or you believe no believer has any free will anymore after accepting Christ and they will be mindless love slaves that sin on occasion. Both of these views in Eternal Security is a doctrine of immorality or hate towards God. No real change has been made between the former old man and the new man.
It says we WERE sometimes foolish and disobedient. WERE. I bolded and highlighted it for you. It means something that is in the past. Fight with the word all you like. It is there in your Bible.

You said:
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

Have to say, you really read into that.
This says God loves us and has shown kindness toward us by sending His Son.

So you do not believe Jesus was sent in the past at one point in time? Verse 4 says "after the kindness of the love of God our Savior toward man APPEARED." This is a one time event. That is what it means when it says "appeared." Let me give you an example. The cat appeared in the room and started to cry for milk. Is the cat still appearing? No. It is a one time past event when I use the word "appeared." Verse 5 says "he saved us." This is past tense. His loving kindness appeared and "He saved us." Putting these two verses together it is saying (a) His loving kindness appeared and (b) He saved us. This is a one time event in the past. So it is talking about Initial Salvation.

You said:
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

You have added the word initial. The Scripture is plain, it is not by our works or our righteousness that we are saved. It is by God's mercy that we are saved. It is God that washes us clean, we are renewed by the giving of the Holy Spirit. We are born again, under grace. We are no longer under the Law, we are under the Grace Of God. You are right, it is a one time event, a Christian now lives by the Spirit of God. Under the Grace of God.

Before you said this is not initial salvation and now you are saying it is a one time event. Please make up your mind. Is not this one time event an entrance of salvation?

You said:
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Go back to verse 5, what is shed on us through Jesus Christ our Saviour? God's Mercy! We are renewed by the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit sanctifies us.

Yes, a one time event of His mercy of forgiving of us when we accept Him (Initial Salvation).
Afer the Sanctification of the Spirit (Initial Salvation) it then leads to obedience (Continued Salvation).

For Peter tells us that the sanctification of the Spirit is for obedience.
For 1 Peter 1:2 ABPE says,
"by sanctification of The Spirit, for obedience."

You said:
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Being MADE heirs. Again, one time event. I MADE cookies. It is not, I MAKING cookies. Also, when you read Titus 3:7, you also have to read these little gems, too.

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

Now, you can either ignore this verse or you can seek to change what it says plainly.

You said:
We are justified by God's Grace, not our works, not our righteousness just as verse 5 says. It is God's mercy upon us when we put our trust in Christ. Christ is our hope. The only hope we have.

Yes, Christ is our Initial and Ultimate salvation. We continue to trust and believe in Him as our Savior. If we stumble, we get clean through Jesus Christ by repenting or confessing our sin and not by doing a work. But if we are in Christ (Who is the source of our salvation) then good fruit and not bad fruit will be evident in our lives because He lives inside of us.

Nowhere is Paul saying that we can be saved in this life by being unfruitful and unholy.
Paul says that you can deny God by a lack of works (See Titus 1:16).
Paul says that those who do certain sins like murder, hate, adultery, theft, and drunkenness, etc. will not inherit the Kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21), (1 Corinthians 6:9-11) (Ephesians 5:3-5) (Colossians 3:5-7).

When Paul is saying we are not saved by works of righteousness that we have done, He is talking about Initial Salvation and Ultimate Salvation. We did not have to do a work to first initially get saved and we do not have to rely strictly on works alone to save us as we continue in the faith. This does not mean works does not play a part in the salvation process as we walk with God. For the works being done in the believer's life are the works of the Lord. God does not just save us from our past sins by doing a one time prayer and by us having a belief alone. God also saves us from our life of sin, too. God transforms our lives for the better and not for the worse. This is what the washing and renewing of the Holy Ghost part is for. If a believer is truly washed and regenerated they will be a new creature in Christ.

You said:
It all follows the same theme:
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

When you read John 3:16 you also have to read the "Condemnation" in John 3:19-21 that says,

19 "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

Did you catch what it said?

All who do evil hate the light unless their deeds should be reproved.
If a believer is doing evil or sin they are actually hating the light (Who is Jesus) and they are not loving Him. Unless of course they are reproved of their evil deeds and they repent before their advocate Jesus Christ (Also see 1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9).

You said:
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men."

Jesus tells us what the good work is:
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

God has sent His Son, Jesus of Nazareth. Our Lord, Our Savior, Our God!

Now, your just wearing OSAS glasses and ignoring the context.

Looking back at Titus 2, it says this about good works.

6 Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.
7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you." (Titus 2:6-8).

Verse 7 says we are to have a pattern of good works and then it describes what these good works are.

You said:
As John says, We obey His Commandments. Love God, Love our Neighbor. We show the fruits of the Spirit:love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

He that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him (1 John 2:4).
All who do evil hate the light (John 3:20).
He that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8).

You said:
James was definitely not talking about the Law, right before he says faith without works is dead he says thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. He than admonishes those that are keeping the Law. He says if you offend in one point you are guilty of all.

It is true James was not talking about the Old Law in James chapter 2. James was talking about the "Royal Law" (James 2:8). This is the law of love. John says, "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." (1 John 4:8). So if you break God's law of love in one point, you are guilty of breaking all of them. For James was talking about the condemnation of respect of persons in the beginning of James 2. He was saying it was not loving to respect the man with the rich looking clothing and yet not respect the poor man in their fellowship. He said that if they were to do this, it would be as if they were breaking all of God's laws on love (i.e. the Royal Law or the Law of Love).

You said:
In Christ
Daniel

Anyways, please be well.
And may God bless you, Daniel.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

~ Jason.


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stuart lawrence

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Right. I agree. It is only by the Holy Spirit we receive AFTER becoming Christ's do we receive power over sin. Roman 3:20 is talking Old Covenant. The Spirit is New Covenant.
Rom3:20 is speaking of the law.
In rom ch7 Paul explains that, includes: thou shalt not covet, one of the TC.
Jason states we are under a law of righteousness concerning: Thou shalt not covet
 
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Jason, with all my heart I plead with you.

Please. Let's try not to act like your version of Soteriology is superior when it is clearly flawed both biblically and morally. You cannot convince me to believe in a doctrine that condones sin and evil. You can plead to your blue in the face. It will not change anything. If there is one thing I hate more in this world, it is the belief of Eternal Security. Why? Because Eternal Security was a tactic that was used by the devil himself in the very beginning. The Devil said to Eve, "yea, ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).

You said:
You testifies against yourself. For you put a yoke on others that you yourself are not able to bare.

I did not know you are God to know my life so well.
With man, obeying the righteous ways of the Lord on their own power is impossible, but with God, all things are possible (See Matthew 19:16-30).

You said:
The Bible testifies against you. It says man is wretched.

Actually, no. The Bible testifies against your belief in Eternal Security.

In Romans 7:24,
Paul is recounting his experience as a Pharisee and not as a Christian.
This is evident by the fact that he says he is sold under sin in Romans 7:14 and yet he says in Romans 8:2 that he is free from sin.

Romans 6 says, shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? Paul says God forbid.
(Romans 6:1-2).

In Revelation 3:17,
God calls a particular church "wretched." This is serious because Christ says if they are lukewarm, He will spew them out of his mouth. Christ tells them to repent.

You said:
It says our righteousness is as filthy rags.

Please read this article here:
Our righteousness is like filthy rags due to our INIQUITIES – Isaiah 64:6

You said:
It says that the best state of man is nothing but vanity (sin).

Verse please.

You said:
Life itself testifies against you. No man has ever achieved what you are espousing since the Cross of Christ. Name the sinless men since Christ's resurrection. If your doctrine is true, we should have a list of men that have reached perfection, men who sin not.

Not really. 2 Timothy 3:1-9 says in the last days perilous times will come and men will have a form of Godliness and deny the power thereof. Noah was a preacher of righteousness. If you lived in Noah's day and you heard Noah's preach on righteousness, you could say the same thing to him and yet be wrong because only 8 people were saved on the Ark and the rest of the world was destroyed because they were wicked. So you cannot walk by sight, but you have to walk by faith.

You said:
Christ is the way, the truth, the life. He provides the covering, it is His righteousness that is imputed towards us.

We get a clearer picture of Christ's imputation of righteousness in 1 John 1:7. It says,

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

You said:
We cleave unto Christ!

In Christ
Daniel

But I do not see how the statement of "cleaving to the Lord" in Acts of the Apostles 11:23 works in the Eternal Security belief. It preaches another message that says that a believer can sin and still be saved (on some level), too. This would not be "cleaving to the Lord."


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"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
(Romans 8:2).

Paul says he is free from the law of sin and death.
The law brought sin and death to him.
He is free from this sin that the Law brought to him.

"For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." (Romans 6:14).



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stuart lawrence

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This is the problem of course. In my experience, in more than forty years of attending various churches, those who are most adamant you must obey the law to be righteous, least reflect what Christ termed the higher points of the law in their lives.
It is driven by pride, hence they seldom, if ever admit to error
 
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stuart lawrence

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The law of sin and death is righteousness of observing the law. Condemnation for failing to observe the law/sin. Hence the law of sin and death.

And as paul repeatedly states. The Christian is not under the law of sin and death, for:
Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness for everyone who believeth
Rom10:4
 
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stuart lawrence

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The more the fruits of the Spirit grow in you, the more you live as God desires you to. For they are the embodiment of how God wants you to live. And they bring you into no conflict with God's good and holy laws.
This is very different from the law of sin and death which states:
Look to the letter of the law, obey it, or death results.
That is the law of sin and death
 
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Anyone who believes in Jesus is free from the Law of Moses.

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:" (Romans 8:3).

Which law could not do? The New Covenant Law or the Old Covenant Law?
Obviously this would be the Old Covenant Law seeing the New Testament Scriptures were still being formed at the time of this letter by Paul.

This law also was weak and God sent his only Son to condemn sin in the flesh.
Does it say that Jesus was sent to condemn just the Law?
No. It says that the Son was sent to condemn sin in the flesh.
Jesus was sent to condemn sin.



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stuart lawrence

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Which law could not do???

The OC law of Torah not applicable under NC law could be FAULTLESSLY OBEYED. It was the moral law that could not do!!

If people claim the moral law is not part of NC law they must be Antinomian.

Still no Admitting to error I see.
It's just too hard for those who earnestly seek a law of righteousness
 
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stuart lawrence

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Why oh why did Paul give one of the TC/ moral law as the example of why he had to die to the law of righteousness
He said:

Concerning legalistic righteousness ( I was)faultless
Phil3:6

I know you will never admit to error here Jason. But do you really want to go through life refusing to accept such plain facts from Pauls words?
Earnestly preaching error is a hard cross to bear. You ultimately suffer
 
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Which law could not do???

The OC law of Torah not applicable under NC law could be FAULTLESSLY OBEYED. It was the moral law that could not do!!

If people claim the moral law is not part of NC law they must be Antinomian.

Still no Admitting to error I see.
It's just too hard for those who earnestly seek a law of righteousness

So you believe in Antinomianism?

Anyways, I have already been over this dead horse with you and we have beat it many times already. I keep pointing you to Ephesians 5:5 and you just ignore it.

Paul's struggle with the good part (or the righteous aspect of the Old Law that has carried on over into the New Covenant). This good part or righteous aspect of the Old law is mentioned in Romans 8:3-4. We see a similar description of this righteous aspect of the Old Law wrapped in the New in Romans 13:8-10.

This is why you are confused.
You are trying to label the Law in Romans 7:14-24 as being a part of the Old Law still when that is not the case.
Yes, it is true, the Law in Romans 7:14-24 is both an OT Law and NT Law when looking at the whole course of human history.
Yet, Paul is not saying he is not under the NT law of not coveting (See Ephesians 5:5).
Coveting is an NT Law now.
It is not an exclusive OT Law anymore.
For the Old Law has passed away.
Not all Law.
For if all Law passed away, then nobody could technically sin or break God's laws.


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