New Heaven and Earth Discussion

Dartman

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So there is no spiritual or moral righteousness in providing life extending medical attention to a premature baby?
We should just let them die since we are only postponing their death by 70+ years?
Really?
Really? You take it from the extreme of;
saving a premature baby not only cancels the sins of the world, it makes THIS century even more righteous than any other

to: if it DOESN'T count as GREAT righteousness .... then we should just let them die!!

You know that isn't what I said.

It is true, a longer life gives one more opportunity for righteousness.
It ALSO true, a longer life gives one more opportunity for sin.
Ezek 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Ezek 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

parousia70 said:
Dartman said:
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
We won't even get to cry tears of Joy?
Bummer.
Sounds kind of like a Prozac type existence the way you paint it.
That's YOUR paint job, not mine, and not the Scriptures.
So, look at what you are doing here. You are ridiculing God's promises! What amount of Hubris would tempt you into THAT situation????
parousia70 said:
Indeed. Even the damning abomination of engaging in oral sex with your wedded spouse of the opposite gender. It's epidemic indeed.
Scripture please???

Heb 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
parousia70 said:
Wait... you are an annhilationist?
Of course!
ALL wicked are destroyed, they will "be no more", "not found", "removed", not live, dead, burned up, left "neither root, nor branch".
AND, after the judgement ;
Rev 21:4 ... there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
 
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claninja

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NO!
What I SAID is;
Jesus WILL
reign until his enemies are put under his feet. Jesus IS in the heavens, and has all authority, and all power ... but he has NOT started his LITERAL reign ON THE EARTH .. yet!
Your MISquote is inaccurate. Is this on purpose, or do you just not get it?
When I quoted Acts 2:35-35 to show that Christ is in heaven sitting at the right hand of God until his enemies are made a foot stool, you said...
Exactly. As I said, Jesus was given all authority and all power by his God. Jesus is sitting at his God's right hand, and is in control of things, for his God.
But when, in the same list of quotes, I used 1 Corinthians 15:25 to show that Christ is reigning in heaven until his enemies are put under his feet, you said...
This statement is made about the end, AFTER Jesus has returned ...
In your above and previous responses in this discussion, you have refused to state that Christ is reigning in heaven, therefore I'm assuming, based on your responses, you don't believe Christ is currently reigning in heaven. It appears you believe Christ won't reign until he comes back to earth. This is the heart of our discussion, as I believe Christ was reigning, is reigning, and will continue to reign. So how do you reconcile acts 2:34-35 which states Christ ascended to heaven and will sit at the right hand of God until his enemies are made a foot stool, with 1 Corinthians 15:25 which states Christ must reign until his enemies are put under his feet?


Sure!
Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

SO, we can see from these texts, the 2nd coming of Jesus coincides with the 1st resurrection, and with the proclamation "the kingdoms of this world ARE BECOME, the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ".
These 3 events are heralded by the 7th/last trump of God. And that the righteous and Jesus reign "ON THE EARTH".

Thank you, while I don't agree with all your interpretations on these, I can at least see your side of the discussion better.
 
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parousia70

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Really? You take it from the extreme of;
saving a premature baby not only cancels the sins of the world, it makes THIS century even more righteous than any other

I never said or implied that saving a premature baby cancels the sins of the world... where do you get that from anything I have said?
I do agree that THIS Century has more righteousness than any previous, and Next Century will be even more, and so on and so on...

If as you claim, the world is getting worse and worse, please point to a time in History where it was better than today - a year, a decade, whatever...

The Reality is, Christ now is the ruler over the earth and has chosen to expand his Kingdom rule over every region of the planet via His Church. The 2000 year trend is right on target as the Church is the leading religion and has overthrown most regions of persecution upon the earth.

This is a LONG-TERM view of the reconciliation of the world, understanding that Christ's reign will be established and all nations discipled before Christ will ever consummate the creedal "end of the world." This means that we have a very long way to go and the Church must continue to subdue kingdoms and establish righteousness as Hebrews 11 shows us. The Church is the light of the world, the salt of the earth, and the city on the Hill that is in charge over the earth and the heavens (Matt 16:18-19; Matt 28:18-19).

Things are not going to get worse and worse. The 20-century trend is all in favor of the dominance of Christianity. The saints must never abdicate its powers or place as the rulers of the earth with Christ and Abraham (Rom 4:14-18).

if it DOESN'T count as GREAT righteousness .... then we should just let them die!!

You know that isn't what I said.

The clarify for us what you meant when you said: "They are not saving lives, they are merely postponing death."

How is this evidence of a deteriorating Spiritual condition on earth today?

It is true, a longer life gives one more opportunity for righteousness.
It ALSO true, a longer life gives one more opportunity for sin.

So what?
Is it yours or my Job to decide which life is worth prolonging based on its likelyhood of Righteousness vs Sin? Or do we have a Biblical mandate to minister to the sick and infirm, period?

That's YOUR paint job, not mine, and not the Scriptures.

So there WILL be tears of Joy in the New Heavens and Earth?
Scripture please???

Scripture please???

1 Corinthians 6:9, 1 Timothy 1:10 - for Starters
Unrepentant Sodomites have no place in the Kingdom... married or not.

Of course!
ALL wicked are destroyed, they will "be no more", "not found", "removed", not live, dead, burned up, left "neither root, nor branch".
AND, after the judgement ;
Rev 21:4 ... there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Rev 20:10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Matt 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
 
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Dartman

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I never said or implied that saving a premature baby cancels the sins of the world... where do you get that from anything I have said?
Yes, after I posted that, it occurred to me you might take it this way.
I SHOULD have said "makes up for" the sins of the world, in stead of "cancels".
That being said, your point is still ludicrous.
parousia70 said:
I do agree that THIS Century has more righteousness than any previous, and Next Century will be even more, and so on and so on...
I don't. Nor do the Scriptures. Jesus said it will be as it was in the days of Noah ..... and we know how that turned out.
parousia70 said:
If as you claim, the world is getting worse and worse, please point to a time in History where it was better than today - a year, a decade, whatever...
It's been a consistent decline.
2 Tim 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

parousia70 said:
The Reality is, Christ now is the ruler over the earth and has chosen to expand his Kingdom rule over every region of the planet via His Church. The 2000 year trend is right on target as the Church is the leading religion and has overthrown most regions of persecution upon the earth.
Your message doesn't match reality.
parousia70 said:
Dartman said:
That's YOUR paint job, not mine, and not the Scriptures.
So, look at what you are doing here. You are ridiculing God's promises! What amount of Hubris would tempt you into THAT situation????
So there WILL be tears of Joy in the New Heavens and Earth?
Scripture please???
Are you calling God a liar, or are you ridiculing God's promise? Which is it?
All I did was quote HIS words, and you started ridiculing!
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Do you believe this ... or not???
parousia70 said:
1 Corinthians 6:9, 1 Timothy 1:10 - for Starters
Unrepentant Sodomites have no place in the Kingdom... married or not.
These verses say NOTHING about your point!!! You are reading into those texts your OWN invention.
parousia70 said:
Rev 20:10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev 20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages. YLT
Rev 21:25 and its gates shall not at all be shut by day, for night shall not be there;YLT


Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
The lake of fire ends with the age, and so does "day and night". In the perfect age "the age of the ages", Jehovah/YHVH God brings an end to ALL pain, sorry, death, crying ... so the concept of "eternal torment" isn't possible.
parousia70 said:
Matt 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Yes, that punishment will never be revoked. The devil and all the wicked have ceased to exist. That punishment is everlasting.
Their shame and contempt will NEVER be removed:
Dan 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
So, we KNOW they will NOT be saved!
 
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parousia70

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Yes, after I posted that, it occurred to me you might take it this way.
I SHOULD have said "makes up for" the sins of the world, in stead of "cancels".
That being said, your point is still ludicrous.
Hardly

I don't. Nor do the Scriptures. Jesus said it will be as it was in the days of Noah ..... and we know how that turned out.
It was like the Days of Noah at the end of the Mosaic Age, when the Lord of the Vineyard came and destroyed the wicked sons, and was the Stone that crushed them (Matthew 21:40-45)

It's been a consistent decline.

That's Right.... I remember when the USA didn't have legalized slavery of Africans and now we do......
Definitely worse today.

2 Tim 3:1
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

Which Last Days?
The Biblical last Days that scripture teaches Began during the lifetime of the Jesus apostles, who infallibly claimed at that time were "about to end" in their day? or are speaking of a different last days?


Your message doesn't match reality.
Of course it does.
Christ is the God of this world. You may be confused by the fact that Christ the King allows a certain freedom to men to convert or face damnation. But for sure, Jesus is the God of the world:

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.


Christ is "above all rule and authority and power and dominion" (Eph 1:19-20); all authorities and powers are subjected to Him (1 Pet 3:22); through His death he destroyed the devil who had the power of death (Heb 2:14); and He is "the ruler of the kings of the earth" (Rev 1:5-6). The very purpose that Christ was manifested in the flesh was to destroy the works of the devil (1 Jn 3:8).

Christ the King of the world is by his own sovereign plan permitting men some freedom to refuse the gospel and face their damnation. This decree of Christ is *not* to be understood as a lack of his rulership over the world, but rather the sovereign choice of His Majesty.
We are to subdue kingdoms and establish righteousness as the Hebrews 11 heroes did:

Hebrews 11:6, 32-33
for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him...for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions

The Christian Church walks in this great heritage of unstoppable faith just like our Hebrews 11 brothers and sisters. We are in process of subduing kingdoms, establishing righteousness, and asserting Christ's dominion over all nations through the same faith of David, Samuel, Joshua, and Moses had. Nothing can stop us (Matthew 16:18-19).

Society is being redeemed by the Atonement of Christ's blood and the power of the Holy Spirit via the Church. Christ's Church is carrying out the reconciliation of the Cross to all nations and we cannot fail (Matt 16:18-19):

2 Corinthians 5:18-20
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, RECONCILING THE WORLD UNTO HIMSELF, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as God did beseech you by us

So we can see that at this time God is reconciling all the world unto himself.

Perhaps you do not believe in the Spirit's great power?

1 John 4:4
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them [past tense]: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1 John 2:13
ye have overcome the wicked one.

1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith


Are you calling God a liar, or are you ridiculing God's promise? Which is it?
Neither.
All I did was quote HIS words, and you started ridiculing!

Just checking to see HOW literal you take the passage...Will there be tears of Joy or not? you still haven't shared your belief about how literal you take the passage.

No more sorrow, pain, death and tears refers to the fear of death as shown in Psalm 116. There is no more death, and so, no more pain, sorrow, or tears associated with it. Read Revelation 21:4 after reading Psalm 116

This promise of no more mourning, crying or pain which is fulfilled on earth in the joy in the Holy Spirit is merely a shadow of the literal fulfillment of this promise in heaven. Adding to the joy of the believer is the promise of eternal life in heaven through Jesus’ redemptive work on the cross (John 17:3). Because of this sacrifice, there is no more death as the old order has passed away.

These verses say NOTHING about your point!!! You are reading into those texts your OWN invention.
Sodomy is Sodomy... you and I don't get a pass because we are married. I sure hope for your sake you aren't trying to justify your own grave sin instead of repenting from it.

Rev 20:10
and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages. YLT
Rev 21:25 and its gates shall not at all be shut by day, for night shall not be there;YLT
So How is it that the Tree of Life bears fruit "every month" then? - And who's coming in those open gates that isn't already there?
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
The lake of fire ends with the age, and so does "day and night". In the perfect age "the age of the ages", Jehovah/YHVH God brings an end to ALL pain, sorry, death, crying ... so the concept of "eternal torment" isn't possible.

So your position is that one day even the unrepentant will have a share in Christ's Victory over Sin, Pain, crying and Death?
Really?
 
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Dartman

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It was like the Days of Noah at the end of the Mosaic Age, when the Lord of the Vineyard came and destroyed the wicked sons, and was the Stone that crushed them (Matthew 21:40-45)
Another of your misinterpretations. Jesus has NOT returned to judge Israel yet.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
parousia70 said:
.... I remember when the USA didn't have legalized slavery of Africans and now we do...... Definitely worse today. Which Last Days?
The Biblical last Days that scripture teaches Began during the lifetime of the Jesus apostles, who infallibly claimed at that time were "about to end" in their day? or are speaking of a different last days?
2 Tim 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.


This is more and more true every day. People have gotten worse. Your denial merely erodes any credibility you might have left.

parousia70 said:
Christ is the God of this world. You may be confused by the fact that Christ the King allows a certain freedom to men to convert or face damnation. But for sure, Jesus is the God of the world:
..... so you think Jesus blinded the minds of "them which believe not"?????
2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

parousia70 said:
The Christian Church walks in this great heritage of unstoppable faith just like our Hebrews 11 brothers and sisters. We are in process of subduing kingdoms, establishing righteousness, and asserting Christ's dominion over all nations through the same faith of David, Samuel, Joshua, and Moses had. Nothing can stop us (Matthew 16:18-19).
The body of humans identifying as "The Christian Church" is in utter disarray. That disjointed, contradictory, conflicted assortment of claimants is one of Satan's greatest tools for deception. The apostasy of the early "Church Fathers" has resulted in what John calls, "the great harlot".... "the mother of harlots". Your assessment is one of the greatest examples of "wishful thinking" I have EVER encountered.

parousia70 said:
Society is being redeemed by the Atonement of Christ's blood and the power of the Holy Spirit via the Church. Christ's Church is carrying out the reconciliation of the Cross to all nations and we cannot fail (Matt 16:18-19):
The world, "cosmos", is not being redeemed. Individuals that believe are coming "out from among them", to redemption.

parousia70 said:
Just checking to see HOW literal you take the passage...Will there be tears of Joy or not? you still haven't shared your belief.
There will be GREAT joy!
Matthew 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord
Tears will be wiped away;
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

parousia70 said:
Sodomy is Sodomy...
Of course. What happened in Sodom was male homosexual behavior. It has NOTHING to do with behavior between married parties. The Greek has NO support for your theory.
one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite, homosexual
parousia70 said:
So How is it that the Tree of Life bears fruit "every month" then?
What does that have to do with the leaves for healing????
parousia70 said:
How does ceasing to exist = Torment forever?
"Torment forever" is a mistranslation. It should be tormented TO the ages of the ages. Which would mean once this heaven and earth ends, and the New Heavens and Earth begins.... that condition has been met. This interpretation is consistent with the fact that there is no night in the Eternal Age;
Rev 20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages. YLT
Rev 21:25 and its gates shall not at all be shut by day, for night shall not be there;YLT
 
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parousia70

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Another of your misinterpretations. Jesus has NOT returned to judge Israel yet.

He absolutely did. On time, As Promised.
He is the Stone that crushed them (Matthew 21:33-45)

Rom 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

You have erroneously interpreted "Fulness" to mean "full Number"

Scripture disagrees.

By comparing scripture with scripture we clearly see that "fulness" does not equate with "full number", but rather the fullness of Gods grace:

John 1:16
And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?(This is especially instructive for us in that "fulness" is considered here to the the opposite of "fall", and in no way can be construed as a numeric value.)

Romans 15:29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.

Ephesians 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

The list goes on........

The notion of fulness in the NT carries the idea of totality of Gods blessings and grace, and not a certain number.

The Gentiles are already FULL PARTAKERS of the grace of God.
The "Fulness of the gentiles" came in 2000 years ago.



2 Tim 3:1
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

ALL of this happened in the Apostles generation Friend. Study the Book of Jude.

The body of humans identifying as "The Christian Church" is in utter disarray. That disjointed, contradictory, conflicted assortment of claimants is one of Satan's greatest tools for deception. The apostasy of the early "Church Fathers" has resulted in what John calls, "the great harlot".... "the mother of harlots". Your assessment is one of the greatest examples of "wishful thinking" I have EVER encountered.

Your pessimistic worldview of a Defeated Church that is powerless over the world has you blinded to the scriptural truth of the matter. But that's ok. Time is on the side of my view.
It is running out on yours.
What does that have to do with the leaves for healing????


It doesn't.
It has to do with no night and what you believe that means...
 
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Dartman

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He absolutely did. On time, As Promised.
He is the Stone that crushed them (Matthew 21:33-45)
Yet another of your misinterpretations. Jesus IS the Stone on which they were crushed ... but it ain't over yet. There is a LOT more that is going to happen to Israel, when Jesus actually RETURNS .... which he has not.
parousia70 said:
Dartman said:
Rom 11:25-27 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


You have erroneously interpreted "Fulness" to mean "full Number"
No, that isn't what "fulness" means. The "fulness of the Gentiles" means the exact same thing as "the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled", (Luke 21:24). Jesus isn't going to return, to be the Deliverer out of Zion, UNTIL the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Jesus is going to utterly destroy the governments of the Gentiles... and is going to completely replace EVERY worldly government, with his government.
Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
 
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GUANO

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Revelation 21:1 says "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." Personally, I've always been intrigued by this verse. I know there is no clear/obvious answer in regards to what the purpose of the new earth is for, but I want to hear everyone's views and ideas on this subject. What thoughts do you have concerning this passage?

I've been hard-pressed to find many scriptures (especially prophecy) which speak of 'heaven' as the sky (universe/cosmos) and 'earth' as the ground (planet) and would love to find some. Usually heaven, spoken in context of the entity that the prophecy is being directed toward (usually a nation or other political organization), is figurative of the 'heights' or levels of dignitaries within the polity. The Sun is often the King, the stars are princes and governors and the 'firmament' (the fixed constellations) are the deific 'principals' that govern the nation.

I interpret Revelation 21 as saying that there will be a new 'government' (heaven) and new 'people' (earth) and that there will be no more lawless people (the sea). The governed nations (the islands and the mountains) already 'fled' and were 'nowhere to be found' in a previous chapter. There will be no need for any King, Prince, Philosopher, High Priest, Judge, Jury, Magistrate, etc... (the Sun, Moon and stars) to depend on to reveal to us the nature of the Kingdom of God and rule over us because his consciousness/awareness (light) will be in each of us and there will be no more error. Now, whether this fully manifests in the physical world as well is all up for debate. "Heaven and earth" have always been used as a direct allegory of the individual human consciousness (2nd heaven) and collective (3rd heaven), whether or not this has something to do with the nature of God and the Universe or is just a communication tool is highly debatable.

The scripture seems to focus more about how the people and their consciousness is transformed but what would the universe be like if there was no sun or moon? Perhaps it's all destroyed and we're all absorbed into the 'light of the Godhead' in some mysterious transformation of the universe? Who knows? The language itself seems to be identical to the ancient prophecies in the O.T. where the prophet uses symbolic language in the first verse(s) but then repeats everything in a more common language like this:

untitled2.png
 
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claninja

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Another of your misinterpretations. Jesus has NOT returned to judge Israel yet.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

According to Paul, if it wasn't for the remnant elect Jews, Israel would have been totally wiped out. that sounds like judgment. Romans 9:27-28
And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved; 28 for the Lord will execute his sentence upon the earth with rigor and dispatch.” 29 And as Isaiah predicted, “If the Lord of hosts had not left us children,
we would have fared like Sodom and been made like Gomor′rah.”

Additionally, Matthew 26:63-64 is interesting. Do you think the high priest also saw a vision about the future?
But Jesus was silent. And the high priest said to him, “I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.” 64 Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
 
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parousia70

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Jesus IS the Stone on which they were crushed
Agreed.
And Jesus said (which ought To settle it) that event took place at "the coming of the lord of the vineyard"

You either agree with Him on that or you don't.

.. but it ain't over yet. There is a LOT more that is going to happen to Israel,

Not biblically.
Modern secular, democratic Israel has no relationship to the pre desolation Hebrew theocracy.
Not politically, not religiously, not genetically.

It is not the re-constitution of Biblical, Mosaic Israel by ANY metric, except imagination.

when Jesus actually RETURNS .... which he has not.

According to Jesus, "The lord of the vineyard came and destroyed them".

We are to believe what Jesus says.

No, that isn't what "fulness" means.

lol. Speaking of losing credibility.

I just demonstrated it's EXACTLY what fullness means.

The "fulness of the Gentiles" means the exact same thing as "the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled",

Scripture NOWHERE teaches this.
Such is purely man made.

In fact, scripture is clear.
The time of gentile trampling of the holy city was ordained to last EXACTLY 42 months after it began:

Revelation 11:2

But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.
 
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Dartman

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Dartman said:
Another of your misinterpretations. Jesus has NOT returned to judge Israel yet.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
According to Paul, if it wasn't for the remnant elect Jews, Israel would have been totally wiped out. that sounds like judgment. Romans 9:27-28
And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved; 28 for the Lord will execute his sentence upon the earth with rigor and dispatch.” 29 And as Isaiah predicted, “If the Lord of hosts had not left us children,
we would have fared like Sodom and been made like Gomor′rah.”
There isn't any question that Israel has been judged several times, and has been reduced to a remnant more than once. The point you are ignoring is, there is remnant that is recovered from the nations, AFTER Jesus returns to this planet, and commands the other nations to return them to Israel, which has not happened yet. We are still in "the times of the Gentiles". Jerusalem is STILL "trodden down" of the Gentiles".

claninja said:
Additionally, Matthew 26:63-64 is interesting. Do you think the high priest also saw a vision about the future?
But Jesus was silent. And the high priest said to him, “I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.” 64 Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
That's one possibility. It's also possible Jesus was addressing the High Priest as the representative of Israel, and was informing them, and us, of this truth.
 
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parousia70

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There isn't any question that Israel has been judged several times, and has been reduced to a remnant more than once.

The remnant that was left in the first century was the Nazarene sect, of whom Paul was a "ringleader".

It is through that remnant and that remnant alone that the continuation of Israel be counted.

You seem to have a very bizarre idea of who Isreal is.
You count the disobedient sons of Abraham as "Israel" while you completely discount the believing remnant and say they are something else. That they are somehow Not Israel.

Scripture teaches the opposite.

In Times of Great apostasy, Scripture NEVER counts the CONTINUATION OF Israel through the lineages of the disobedient sons of Abraham.

Not once.
Ever.

Rather, the continuation is ALWAYS Counted through the believing remnant.

Every time.
Always.

You have it totally backwards.

Once again, another view of yours that it is nowhere Taught in Scripture.

That's one possibility. It's also possible Jesus was addressing the High Priest as the representative of Israel, and was informing them, and us, of this truth.

Anything but the plain, literal meaning of the text, right?
 
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Dartman

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Agreed.
And Jesus said (which ought To settle it) that event took place at "the coming of the lord of the vineyard"
Jesus isn't "the lord of the vineyard".
His Father is "the lord of the vineyard". Jesus is the son that was sent last.

You either agree with Him on that or you don't.
parousia70 said:
Dartman said:
.. but it ain't over yet. There is a LOT more that is going to happen to Israel,
Not biblically.
Modern secular, democratic Israel has no relationship to the pre desolation Hebrew theocracy.
Not politically, not religiously, not genetically.
The Scriptures emphatically disagree with you.
Luke 1:30-33 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

parousia70 said:
In fact, scripture is clear.
The time of gentile trampling of the holy city was ordained to last EXACTLY 42 months after it began:

Revelation 11:2

But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.
Your interpretation of this text is clearly flawed, and is proven flawed by the reality test;
Deut 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
The Gentiles SERIOUSLY trampled that city in 70AD, and have continued to do so throughout the rest of the Roman empire, the "Holy" Roman empire, the rising of Islam, the Crusades, the Ottoman empire, the British mandate, and still today!

You better go back to the prophecy, and try to harmonize it with what actually happened. So far, you have spoken presumptuously.
 
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Dartman

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The remnant that was left in the first century was the Nazarene sect, of whom Paul was a "ringleader".
Only a small fraction of the remnant were "the Israel of God"... those of the race of Jews that converted.
The vast majority of the remnant were scattered to the nations, and have wandered the planet, being more abused than any other ethnicity, of all time, and have only recently been able to build a homeland, where they STILL continue to be abused by the Gentiles, and that won't be stopped until after Jesus literally returns to this earth.
parousia70 said:
It is through that remnant and that remnant alone that the continuation of Israel be counted.

You seem to have a very bizarre idea of who Isreal is.
You count the disobedient sons of Abraham as "Israel" while you completely discount the believing remnant and say they are something else. That they are somehow Not Israel.
I have a BIBLICAL idea of who Israel is, as shown in Rom 11, the Jews were "broken off" the Olive tree;
Rom 11:24-31 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Jehovah promised Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and David, that THEY, and their literal descendants would inherit that land.
 
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parousia70

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Jesus isn't "the lord of the vineyard".
His Father is "the lord of the vineyard". Jesus is the son that was sent last.

So you agree then, that 70 AD is to be correctly, biblically understood as "the coming of the lord"?

The Scriptures emphatically disagree with you.
Luke 1:30-33 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

How do these texts prove that modern multi ethnic secular Israel are descendants of Abraham and heirs to the promise?

Your interpretation of this text is clearly flawed, and is proven flawed by the reality test;
Deut 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
You do realize I'm not prophesying anything, nor am I claiming to, right?
 
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parousia70

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Only a small fraction of the remnant were "the Israel of God"... those of the race of Jews that converted.
The vast majority of the remnant were scattered to the nations, and have wandered the planet,

Where does Scripture teach this?

being more abused than any other ethnicity,

Ethnicity?

Modern Jews are a MULTI ETHNIC conglomeration of peoples who follow the MAN MADE, POST CHRISTIAN religion of the Babylonian Talmud.
They do not follow Moses, the do not Keep the GOD GIVEN OT Law and they do not have any more pure Hebrew bloodlines than you or I or any of our Muslim or Hindu, Buddhist neighbors, etc.

These facts pose an insurmountable problem for your view that these modern, Christ rejecting peoples:
A) Have any existing, covenanted relationship with the living God.

B) Are heirs to the land or any promises made by God to Abraham and his seed.
 
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claninja

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There isn't any question that Israel has been judged several times, and has been reduced to a remnant more than once. The point you are ignoring is, there is remnant that is recovered from the nations, AFTER Jesus returns to this planet, and commands the other nations to return them to Israel, which has not happened yet. We are still in "the times of the Gentiles". Jerusalem is STILL "trodden down" of the Gentiles".

Could you provide scripture that shows Jesus will command other nations to return the Jews to Israel?

That's one possibility. It's also possible Jesus was addressing the High Priest as the representative of Israel, and was informing them, and us, of this truth.
In Matthew 26:64 "Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, hereafter you will 1). see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and 2.)coming on the clouds of heaven.”

He is telling the high priest that He is the one fulfilling Daniel 7:13-14. In this prophecy the Son of Man comes with the clouds of heaven to be presented for the Ancient of Days. It is here where the Son of Man is given dominion, glory, and a kingdom. We know that Christ ascended to heaven to sit at the right hand of God until his enemies are made a foot stool (acts 2:34-35). We know that Christ was given all authority on heaven and earth (Matthew 28:18). We know that Christ is seated at the right hand in the heavens and has been given all power, rule, authority, and dominion above all names, not just in this age, but the age to come (Ephesians 1:20-21). We know that Christ is seated at the right hand of God with all angels, authorities, and powers subject to him (1 peter 3:22). We know the kingdom was not something that was to appear right away, and that Christ had to go away to receive His kingdom. After he received the kingdom, he would return (Luke 19:11-12). We know that Christ must reign until all his enemies are put under his feet (1 Corinthians 15:25). We also know that Christ appeared once to put away sin by his sacrifice, and he will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to save those who eagerly wait for him (Hebrews 9:28).

Jesus received his kingdom and is ruling with all authority and power. We, as believers, are subjects of his kingdom. We worship and serve Him now while we live this life on earth and when we go to be with him for eternity. This fulfills God's promise to Abraham, that through him all nations of the earth will be blessed. It is no longer just Israel who covenants with God, it is now people from all nations and languages (Daniel 7:14).
 
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parousia70

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Jehovah promised Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and David, that THEY, and their literal descendants would inherit that land.

And they DID!

"So the LORD gave Israel all the land which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they possessed it and lived in it. And the LORD gave them rest on every side, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers, and no one of all their enemies stood before them; the LORD gave all their enemies into their hand. Not one of the good promises which the LORD had made to the house of Israel failed; all came to pass. " (Joshua 21:43-45)
 
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Dartman

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Modern Jews are a MULTI ETHNIC conglomeration of peoples who follow the MAN MADE, POST CHRISTIAN religion of the Babylonian Talmud.
You are confusing Judaism, with ethnic Jews. Again, your theories do NOT pass the "reality test".
parousia70 said:
They do not follow Moses, the do not Keep the GOD GIVEN OT Law and they do not have any more pure Hebrew bloodlines than you or I or any of our Muslim or Hindu, Buddhist neighbors, etc.
Your artificial stipulations are irrelevant. This "pure Hebrew bloodline" argument is merely a smoke screen, attempting to wiggle out of the FACT that there are still genetic Jews, by the millions, on the planet, MOSTLY scattered to the nations at this point. The fact that they have disobeyed God is blatantly obvious!! That's WHY there is only a "remnant" left!!! AND, it's why they are scattered across the globe!!
parousia70 said:
These facts pose an insurmountable problem for your view that these modern, Christ rejecting peoples:
A) Have any existing, covenanted relationship with the living God.

B) Are heirs to the land or any promises made by God to Abraham and his seed.
You are missing the point. The "remnant" IS NOT protected because THEY were righteous! The "remnant" is protected because Jehovah made a promise to "THE FATHERS";
Jer 33:25 Thus saith the Lord; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; 26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them. 31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people

The "remnant" is saved because of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David ... even though that remnant BROKE the covenant! They are receiving "mercy", in spite of their sins.

Your denial of the literal ethnic Israel is simply not real, from ANY perspective.
1st, from Scripture. The Jews who converted to Christianity are NOT the ones Paul discusses in Rom 11... they were NOT "broken off" the tree, that will eventually be "grafted in"!!
2nd, from history;
Who do you think was scattered to the nations????
Who do you think has been the subject of Pogroms, ghettos, antisemitism, and the Holocaust, in the last 1900 years????
Who do you think is the "Israeli" population in the nation of Israel right now?
Who do you think are the Jewish populations in the cities and nations all across the globe?

Here again, your bizarre theories do NOT pass the "reality test"!

You have it totally backwards.

Once again, another view of yours that it is nowhere Taught in Scripture.
 
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