50 Reasons for the Pretribulation Rapture

jgr

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As previously posted pertaining to the meaning of the Greek and Latin words, APOSTASIA and DISCESSIO, which means DEPARTURE, in the text of 2 Thess,2:3. which is about a RAPTURE! Not about an FALLING AWAY. The theme of the entire passage between verss1 and 8, is in the very first verse, which states, "About our gathering unto the Lord Jesus Christ" [paraphrased], which is a dirct reference to 1 Thess.4:17, when Jesus returns for everyone who belongs to Him, and we will be CAUGHT UP to be with Him forever!

>>>Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.<<<


Quasar92

Rebuttal

John Walvoord gives brief mention to the speculation, then immediately rejects it for himself.

The Predicted Departure From the Faith
Two things are mentioned in verse 3 as necessarily occurring before the Day of the Lord and the time of judgment can begin. The first thing that is mentioned is “the falling away,” and the word translated literally is “the apostasy,” which means a falling away or a departure in a doctrinal sense. Our English word apostasy comes from the very Greek word used here. Paul is writing them, then, that this Day of the Lord cannot come until there is a widespread departure from the true faith in God. Some have understood this “departure” to be the departure of the church itself—that is, the rapture. If so, it would definitely place the rapture before the tribulation. Most expositors have understood it as doctrinal departure, that is, apostasy.

At the time 2 Thessalonians was written there were, no doubt, some errors in the church, but there was no apostasy in the ordinary sense of the term. The churches were still true to the Lord. Paul is declaring that the Day of the Lord cannot come until there is a departure from the faith first. The Scriptures speak often of this coming apostasy. In 2 Timothy 3:13, it is revealed: “Evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.” Again in 2 Timothy 4:3-4, it is declared: “The time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.” The Scriptures, then, predict that before this time of judgment can come, there must come first a turning away from true faith in God on the part of the professing church.
 
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Quasar92

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Rebuttal

John Walvoord gives brief mention to the speculation, then immediately rejects it for himself.

The Predicted Departure From the Faith
Two things are mentioned in verse 3 as necessarily occurring before the Day of the Lord and the time of judgment can begin. The first thing that is mentioned is “the falling away,” and the word translated literally is “the apostasy,” which means a falling away or a departure in a doctrinal sense. Our English word apostasy comes from the very Greek word used here. Paul is writing them, then, that this Day of the Lord cannot come until there is a widespread departure from the true faith in God. Some have understood this “departure” to be the departure of the church itself—that is, the rapture. If so, it would definitely place the rapture before the tribulation. Most expositors have understood it as doctrinal departure, that is, apostasy.

At the time 2 Thessalonians was written there were, no doubt, some errors in the church, but there was no apostasy in the ordinary sense of the term. The churches were still true to the Lord. Paul is declaring that the Day of the Lord cannot come until there is a departure from the faith first. The Scriptures speak often of this coming apostasy. In 2 Timothy 3:13, it is revealed: “Evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.” Again in 2 Timothy 4:3-4, it is declared: “The time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.” The Scriptures, then, predict that before this time of judgment can come, there must come first a turning away from true faith in God on the part of the professing church.


The following passage of Scripture is about the rapture of the Church Paul was teaching . There is nothing whatever in it that teaches the Church is falling away or in apostasy in the entire passage. The fact that it will be, is found elsewhere in the Scriptures, but not in the following proof to the contrary.

Apostasia means Departure in 2 Thess.2:3:

For that day will not arrive until the 'departure' comes?

3 "Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not arrive until the departure comes and the man of lawlessness (sin) is revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, and as a result he takes his seat in God's temple, displaying himself as God.
5 Surely you recall that I used to tell you these things while I was still with you. 6 And so you know what holds him back, so that he will be revealed in his own time. 7 For the hidden power of lawlessness is already at work. However, the one who holds him back will do so until he is taken out of the way, 8 and then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will destroy by the breath of his mouth and wipe out by the manifestation of his arrival." 2 Thessalonians 2:3-8

Verses 3-5 above provide a description of the order of events:
1. The removal of the Church
2. The revealing of the antichrist
3. The antichrist presenting himself as God
And then again in verses 6-8:
1. The Church is holding the antichrist back, though he is still at work now
2. He is to be revealed in the right time
3. The One who holds him back (the Church) is taken out of the way
4. The lawless one (antichrist) is revealed
5. The Lord returns to destroy the antichrist (Second Coming)

When using the word "departure" or "removal" in verse 3 above, the subsequent verses coincide and restate the same events. We have three similar statements on the removal of the Church first, and then the revealing of the antichrist. Even so, we can turn to modern Greek scholars who can give us a clearer understanding as new advances in language and etymology studies often reveal:

We should be intrigued by those Greek scholars who have looked at the etymology of the word apostasia as it relates to the Greeks and the Jews. The recent English translation of the word has generally been accepted as a "falling away." Apostasia is most theologically debated when referring to 2 Thess 2:3, specifically noting events that must precede the Day of the Lord (Second Coming).
In that passage there are at least four views on the meaning of apostasia: (1) a designation for the Man of Sin (Chrysostom, Theophylact, Augustine, Alford, Moffatt); (2) the religious apostasy that will precede the Second Coming of Christ (Calvin, Chafer, Walvoord, Ryrie, Gundry); (3) the religious-political rebellion against Christ that will culminate in the Battle of Armageddon (Hogg, Vine, Moore, Morris, Bruce); and (4) the rapture of the Church, in the sense of physical departure from the earth (English, Wuest, House, Ice).

What is important to know is who were Paul's listeners and what they understood by the term apostasia. Acts 17 says that Paul and Silas came to Thessalonica where there was a synagogue of the Jews. We know Paul reasoned with them from the Scriptures, and some of them believed and joined themselves to Paul and Silas, and of the devout Greeks there were a great multitude. These Thessalonians, both the Jews and the Greeks who went to the synagogue, were well exposed to the Old Testament, which they would be familiar with, and would have regarded apostasia to mean Jewish religious defection, abandonment, or total removal from the faith (not just a "falling away").

The expression or meaning of the word was more than a "falling away;" rather it was a removal or complete departure. According to Dr. Thomas Ice, that meaning is correctly given in the first seven English translations of the Bible where apostasia is translated as either "departure" or "departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608).

Dr. Ice notes apostasia appears just twice in the New Testament. In addition to 2 Thess. 2:3, it occurs in Acts 21:21, where, speaking of Paul, it is said "that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (aspostasia) Moses." The core meaning of the word in that verse is "defection" or "departure." The Lidell and Scott Greek Lexicon defines apostasia first as a defection or revolt, then secondly as departure or disappearance. When considering the context of the surrounding passages of 2 Thess. 2:3-8, we can see the word apostasia truly means departure or disappearance. More evidence is given by Jerome's Latin Vulgate from around the time of 400 A.D. which renders apostasia as "discessio," meaning departure. Why was the King James Version the first to change the established translation of "departure?" There is no reason, other than reformation scholars of the time were attempting to transliterate (applying a certain meaning), which unfortunately continued in all following English translations.

Dr. Allan A. MacRae, Ph.D., a noted Greek scholar and translator, and president of theology schools, speaks of the striking parallel between verse 3 of 2 Thess 2, and verses 7-8. Verse 3 mentions the departure of the Church as coming first, and then tells of the revealing of the man of lawlessness. In verses 7 and 8 we find the identical sequence. Verse 7 tells of the removal of the Church; verse 8 says: "And then shall that lawless one be revealed." Thus close examination of the passage shows an inner unity and coherence, if we take the word apostasia in its general sense of "departure," while a superficial examination would easily lead to an erroneous interpretation as "falling away" because of the proximity of the mention of the "man of sin."
Dr. Kenneth S. Wuest, LL. D., (Doctor of Laws), a noted Greek scholar, New Testament translator, Greek word-study author and professor, adds further contextual support for taking apostasia as a physical departure. He notes apostasia of which Paul is speaking (verse 3), precedes the revelation of antichrist in his true identity, and that which holds him back (verse 6) also precedes his revelation. The apostasia, therefore, cannot be either a general apostasy in Christendom, nor can it be the particular apostasy which is the result of his activities in making himself the alone object of worship. Furthermore, that which holds back his revelation (verse 3) is vitally connected with verse 7, He who holds back the same event. Dr. Wuest is driven to the inescapable conclusion that the apostasia in verse 3 refers to the removal of the Church which precedes the Day of the Lord (Second Coming), and holds back the revelation of the Man of Sin who ushers in the world-aspect of that period.

The English word departure certainly fits the conext (or coherency) of 2 Thessalonians 2:3-8. Most post-tribulation theologians refuse to address the entire context as it is given, and thus insist the lexical evidence does not suggest a physical departure. But that is exactly what the lexical evidence does suggest. Dismissing the obvious coherence in those passages would be simple ignorance or a stubborn refusal to consider the Scriptural evidence. Remember, if we take a word out of context and apply a dissimilar meaning, we have then created a new pre-text. Likely that happened in the translation in the King James and later versions.

5. Teaching of the rapture, specifically the pre-tribulation rapture, was never taught before the Reformation.

A common argument is that none of the early Church fathers acknowledged or taught the pre-tribulation rapture, and thus the idea of a "rapture" is a relatively new concept. That argument is not only false, but lacks an understanding of Church history. For example, not until after the Protestant Reformation did people get copies of the Bible and once again adopt a literal interpretation, and thus begin to understand prophecy as it was intended. This is when the concept of the pre-tribulation rapture was revived, not invented.

Remember, since Augustine, a literal interpretation of Bible prophecy was prohibited. Prior to that, we have numerous examples of early Church fathers writing about the rapture. Specifically, these writings were pertaining to imminency (meaning the return of Jesus Christ for the Church can happen at any moment). Imminency is especially prominent in the writings of the apostolic fathers (up to the third century A.D.). They had no reason to conclude otherwise, as they relied on the strength of the literal fulfillment of prophecy in the Old Testament.

In the first century A.D., Clement and Ignatius wrote frequently of the imminent return of Jesus Christ for the Church. Other early Christian texts, such as the Didache (Greek: teaching), also known as the "Teaching of the Twelve Apostles," written about 50 A.D.—100 A.D., provided clear teaching on imminency. Another early text, the Shepherd of Hermas (or Pastor of Hermas, 110 A.D.) contained a pre-tribulation rapture concept regarding the tribulation period: "If you then prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it [tribulation period]." The Epistle of Barnabas (131 A.D.) is yet another early text describing imminency. This continued throughout early Church history:

Ephraim the Syrain (306 A.D.—373 A.D.) of the Byzantine Church wrote about the Lord's return as being imminent. He stated, "All saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."
Many early Church fathers understood the concept of the Lord returning for His own before the tribulation period. They exhorted Christians to live a life of purity and faithfulness. However, with the adoption of Augustine's allegorical views by the Catholic Church in 431 A.D., the concept of a pre-tribulation ratpure was shunned. A revival of the concepts of imminency and the rapture didn't happen until after the Protestant Reformation, when people again got copies of the Bible and began interpreting it literally.

The earliest post-Reformation writings began in the 1600s. The concept of the pre-tribulation rapture was first revived by Increase Mather (1639—1723), a Puritan leader. He endeavored to prove "the Saints would be caught up into the air beforehand, thereby escaping the final conflagration [tribulation period]." Another Church leader, Peter Jurieu, taught that Christ would come in the air to rapture the Saints and return to heaven before the battle of Armageddon (from his book, Approaching Deliverance of the Church, published in 1687). Another publication on the subject came from Spain in 1812, entitled The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty, written by Emmanuel Lacunza in 1790. Lacunza was a Jesuit priest from Chile (Chilean theologian of Spanish descent) writing under the assumed name of Rabbi Juan Josafat Ben-Ezra as a converted Jew. The book was later translated into English by Presbyterian minister Edward Irving and published in England in 1827.

John Nelson Darby (1800—1882), scholar and founder of the Plymouth Brethren, was influenced by Lacunza's book. After the Reformation, Darby was the first scholar to refine the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine, and many have incorrectly thought Darby conceived the pre-tribulation rapture (or "secret" rapture) in the early 1800s. Rather, he would be one of many scholars to come who would recognize prophetic Scriptures as accurate descriptions of past, present and future promises. Even so, little understanding of prophecy, the rapture, Church Age or Israel existed within Christianity—it had to be learned again. Few theologians wrote about it, and those who did were often influenced by humanistic Alexandrian theology. The literal interpretation of prophetic passages soon gained acceptance around the world. Author William Blackstone wrote Jesus is Coming (1878), taking rapture doctrine to the prophetic forefront, as did the Scofield Study Bible in 1909. Since then hundreds of scholars, theologians, pastors and teachers have written on the topic.

The freedom to interpret the Bible literally allowed for a comprehensive system of pre-tribulational/pre-millennial theology to be developed. This could not have happened until modern times. Of course it is also true that no comprehensive systems of eschatology (study of last things) were developed until modern times. Why might this be so? The doctrine of the Trinity was known, yet not embraced by Christians until well after the first century A.D. Why would eschatology have waited until modern times for Christians to seriously work on it systematically and comprehensively? Simply put, there was no freedom to do so. Freedoms and discernments within Christendom were kept in check prior to our modern era.

The rapture doctrine was revived after the Reformation by those who could freely accept prophecy as literal. Even today, many denominations (Catholic and Protestant) continue to adhere to the false doctrines of Augustine, and thus refuse to acknowledge Bible prophecy (27% of the Bible). Unfortunately, it has been estimated that nearly 100 million American church members (about 63% of church attendees) have very little or no understanding of Bible prophecy, or the significance of Israel and events surrounding the Middle East. This is the result of Alexandrian theology. Prophetic truth has been suppressed for generations; even so, we are promised victory.

Sources: The Pre-Tribulation Rapture Promise

http://www.cephas-library.com/rapture_apostasia_vs_departure.html

Is the Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3?

Greek term 'apostasia' in 2 Thes.2:3 means 'departure' in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum


Quasar92
 
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BABerean2

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A common argument is that none of the early Church fathers acknowledged or taught the pre-tribulation rapture, and thus the idea of a "rapture" is a relatively new concept. That argument is not only false, but lacks an understanding of Church history.

You must be repeating some of Grant Jeffrey's revisionist history, based on the above.


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf


Grant Jeffrey cut-and-pasted the writings of the Early Church Fathers in order to make them fit your doctrine.

.
 
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Quasar92

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You must be repeating some of Grant Jeffrey's revisionist history, based on the above.


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf


Grant Jeffrey cut-and-pasted the writings of the Early Church Fathers in order to make them fit your doctrine.

.


There is little doubt yu did not read my post #202 that prove the rapture of the Church timing is before the tribulation begins; pre-trib!

The pre-trib teachings come directly from Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul as documented in the four post link below:

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum


Quasar92
 
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BABerean2

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There is little doubt yu did not read my post #202 that prove the rapture of the Church timing is before the tribulation begins; pre-trib!

The pre-trib teachings come directly from Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul as documented in the four post link below:

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum


Quasar92

I have read this same information that you have claimed over and over again proves a pretrib removal of the Church.

There is just one little problem.

What you are claiming does not match up to the text.

You can claim it a million times and it still will not match up to the text.


Your whole system falls apart with the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.



Great Errors in Dispensational Eschatology: Pastor John Otis


There is no Plan B of salvation outside of the New Covenant Church, during a future time period.

The New Covenant is about Grace, instead of race. (1 Timothy 1:4)



Php 3:1  Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. 

Php 3:2  Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. 

Php 3:3  For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. 




.
 
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jgr

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The following passage of Scripture is about the rapture of the Church Paul was teaching . There is nothing whatever in it that teaches the Church is falling away or in apostasy in the entire passage. The fact that it will be, is found elsewhere in the Scriptures, but not in the following proof to the contrary.

Apostasia means Departure in 2 Thess.2:3:

For that day will not arrive until the 'departure' comes?

3 "Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not arrive until the departure comes and the man of lawlessness (sin) is revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, and as a result he takes his seat in God's temple, displaying himself as God.
5 Surely you recall that I used to tell you these things while I was still with you. 6 And so you know what holds him back, so that he will be revealed in his own time. 7 For the hidden power of lawlessness is already at work. However, the one who holds him back will do so until he is taken out of the way, 8 and then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will destroy by the breath of his mouth and wipe out by the manifestation of his arrival." 2 Thessalonians 2:3-8

Verses 3-5 above provide a description of the order of events:
1. The removal of the Church
2. The revealing of the antichrist
3. The antichrist presenting himself as God
And then again in verses 6-8:
1. The Church is holding the antichrist back, though he is still at work now
2. He is to be revealed in the right time
3. The One who holds him back (the Church) is taken out of the way
4. The lawless one (antichrist) is revealed
5. The Lord returns to destroy the antichrist (Second Coming)

When using the word "departure" or "removal" in verse 3 above, the subsequent verses coincide and restate the same events. We have three similar statements on the removal of the Church first, and then the revealing of the antichrist. Even so, we can turn to modern Greek scholars who can give us a clearer understanding as new advances in language and etymology studies often reveal:

We should be intrigued by those Greek scholars who have looked at the etymology of the word apostasia as it relates to the Greeks and the Jews. The recent English translation of the word has generally been accepted as a "falling away." Apostasia is most theologically debated when referring to 2 Thess 2:3, specifically noting events that must precede the Day of the Lord (Second Coming).
In that passage there are at least four views on the meaning of apostasia: (1) a designation for the Man of Sin (Chrysostom, Theophylact, Augustine, Alford, Moffatt); (2) the religious apostasy that will precede the Second Coming of Christ (Calvin, Chafer, Walvoord, Ryrie, Gundry); (3) the religious-political rebellion against Christ that will culminate in the Battle of Armageddon (Hogg, Vine, Moore, Morris, Bruce); and (4) the rapture of the Church, in the sense of physical departure from the earth (English, Wuest, House, Ice).

What is important to know is who were Paul's listeners and what they understood by the term apostasia. Acts 17 says that Paul and Silas came to Thessalonica where there was a synagogue of the Jews. We know Paul reasoned with them from the Scriptures, and some of them believed and joined themselves to Paul and Silas, and of the devout Greeks there were a great multitude. These Thessalonians, both the Jews and the Greeks who went to the synagogue, were well exposed to the Old Testament, which they would be familiar with, and would have regarded apostasia to mean Jewish religious defection, abandonment, or total removal from the faith (not just a "falling away").

The expression or meaning of the word was more than a "falling away;" rather it was a removal or complete departure. According to Dr. Thomas Ice, that meaning is correctly given in the first seven English translations of the Bible where apostasia is translated as either "departure" or "departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608).

Dr. Ice notes apostasia appears just twice in the New Testament. In addition to 2 Thess. 2:3, it occurs in Acts 21:21, where, speaking of Paul, it is said "that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (aspostasia) Moses." The core meaning of the word in that verse is "defection" or "departure." The Lidell and Scott Greek Lexicon defines apostasia first as a defection or revolt, then secondly as departure or disappearance. When considering the context of the surrounding passages of 2 Thess. 2:3-8, we can see the word apostasia truly means departure or disappearance. More evidence is given by Jerome's Latin Vulgate from around the time of 400 A.D. which renders apostasia as "discessio," meaning departure. Why was the King James Version the first to change the established translation of "departure?" There is no reason, other than reformation scholars of the time were attempting to transliterate (applying a certain meaning), which unfortunately continued in all following English translations.

Dr. Allan A. MacRae, Ph.D., a noted Greek scholar and translator, and president of theology schools, speaks of the striking parallel between verse 3 of 2 Thess 2, and verses 7-8. Verse 3 mentions the departure of the Church as coming first, and then tells of the revealing of the man of lawlessness. In verses 7 and 8 we find the identical sequence. Verse 7 tells of the removal of the Church; verse 8 says: "And then shall that lawless one be revealed." Thus close examination of the passage shows an inner unity and coherence, if we take the word apostasia in its general sense of "departure," while a superficial examination would easily lead to an erroneous interpretation as "falling away" because of the proximity of the mention of the "man of sin."
Dr. Kenneth S. Wuest, LL. D., (Doctor of Laws), a noted Greek scholar, New Testament translator, Greek word-study author and professor, adds further contextual support for taking apostasia as a physical departure. He notes apostasia of which Paul is speaking (verse 3), precedes the revelation of antichrist in his true identity, and that which holds him back (verse 6) also precedes his revelation. The apostasia, therefore, cannot be either a general apostasy in Christendom, nor can it be the particular apostasy which is the result of his activities in making himself the alone object of worship. Furthermore, that which holds back his revelation (verse 3) is vitally connected with verse 7, He who holds back the same event. Dr. Wuest is driven to the inescapable conclusion that the apostasia in verse 3 refers to the removal of the Church which precedes the Day of the Lord (Second Coming), and holds back the revelation of the Man of Sin who ushers in the world-aspect of that period.

The English word departure certainly fits the conext (or coherency) of 2 Thessalonians 2:3-8. Most post-tribulation theologians refuse to address the entire context as it is given, and thus insist the lexical evidence does not suggest a physical departure. But that is exactly what the lexical evidence does suggest. Dismissing the obvious coherence in those passages would be simple ignorance or a stubborn refusal to consider the Scriptural evidence. Remember, if we take a word out of context and apply a dissimilar meaning, we have then created a new pre-text. Likely that happened in the translation in the King James and later versions.

5. Teaching of the rapture, specifically the pre-tribulation rapture, was never taught before the Reformation.

A common argument is that none of the early Church fathers acknowledged or taught the pre-tribulation rapture, and thus the idea of a "rapture" is a relatively new concept. That argument is not only false, but lacks an understanding of Church history. For example, not until after the Protestant Reformation did people get copies of the Bible and once again adopt a literal interpretation, and thus begin to understand prophecy as it was intended. This is when the concept of the pre-tribulation rapture was revived, not invented.

Remember, since Augustine, a literal interpretation of Bible prophecy was prohibited. Prior to that, we have numerous examples of early Church fathers writing about the rapture. Specifically, these writings were pertaining to imminency (meaning the return of Jesus Christ for the Church can happen at any moment). Imminency is especially prominent in the writings of the apostolic fathers (up to the third century A.D.). They had no reason to conclude otherwise, as they relied on the strength of the literal fulfillment of prophecy in the Old Testament.

In the first century A.D., Clement and Ignatius wrote frequently of the imminent return of Jesus Christ for the Church. Other early Christian texts, such as the Didache (Greek: teaching), also known as the "Teaching of the Twelve Apostles," written about 50 A.D.—100 A.D., provided clear teaching on imminency. Another early text, the Shepherd of Hermas (or Pastor of Hermas, 110 A.D.) contained a pre-tribulation rapture concept regarding the tribulation period: "If you then prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it [tribulation period]." The Epistle of Barnabas (131 A.D.) is yet another early text describing imminency. This continued throughout early Church history:

Ephraim the Syrain (306 A.D.—373 A.D.) of the Byzantine Church wrote about the Lord's return as being imminent. He stated, "All saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."
Many early Church fathers understood the concept of the Lord returning for His own before the tribulation period. They exhorted Christians to live a life of purity and faithfulness. However, with the adoption of Augustine's allegorical views by the Catholic Church in 431 A.D., the concept of a pre-tribulation ratpure was shunned. A revival of the concepts of imminency and the rapture didn't happen until after the Protestant Reformation, when people again got copies of the Bible and began interpreting it literally.

The earliest post-Reformation writings began in the 1600s. The concept of the pre-tribulation rapture was first revived by Increase Mather (1639—1723), a Puritan leader. He endeavored to prove "the Saints would be caught up into the air beforehand, thereby escaping the final conflagration [tribulation period]." Another Church leader, Peter Jurieu, taught that Christ would come in the air to rapture the Saints and return to heaven before the battle of Armageddon (from his book, Approaching Deliverance of the Church, published in 1687). Another publication on the subject came from Spain in 1812, entitled The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty, written by Emmanuel Lacunza in 1790. Lacunza was a Jesuit priest from Chile (Chilean theologian of Spanish descent) writing under the assumed name of Rabbi Juan Josafat Ben-Ezra as a converted Jew. The book was later translated into English by Presbyterian minister Edward Irving and published in England in 1827.

John Nelson Darby (1800—1882), scholar and founder of the Plymouth Brethren, was influenced by Lacunza's book. After the Reformation, Darby was the first scholar to refine the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine, and many have incorrectly thought Darby conceived the pre-tribulation rapture (or "secret" rapture) in the early 1800s. Rather, he would be one of many scholars to come who would recognize prophetic Scriptures as accurate descriptions of past, present and future promises. Even so, little understanding of prophecy, the rapture, Church Age or Israel existed within Christianity—it had to be learned again. Few theologians wrote about it, and those who did were often influenced by humanistic Alexandrian theology. The literal interpretation of prophetic passages soon gained acceptance around the world. Author William Blackstone wrote Jesus is Coming (1878), taking rapture doctrine to the prophetic forefront, as did the Scofield Study Bible in 1909. Since then hundreds of scholars, theologians, pastors and teachers have written on the topic.

The freedom to interpret the Bible literally allowed for a comprehensive system of pre-tribulational/pre-millennial theology to be developed. This could not have happened until modern times. Of course it is also true that no comprehensive systems of eschatology (study of last things) were developed until modern times. Why might this be so? The doctrine of the Trinity was known, yet not embraced by Christians until well after the first century A.D. Why would eschatology have waited until modern times for Christians to seriously work on it systematically and comprehensively? Simply put, there was no freedom to do so. Freedoms and discernments within Christendom were kept in check prior to our modern era.

The rapture doctrine was revived after the Reformation by those who could freely accept prophecy as literal. Even today, many denominations (Catholic and Protestant) continue to adhere to the false doctrines of Augustine, and thus refuse to acknowledge Bible prophecy (27% of the Bible). Unfortunately, it has been estimated that nearly 100 million American church members (about 63% of church attendees) have very little or no understanding of Bible prophecy, or the significance of Israel and events surrounding the Middle East. This is the result of Alexandrian theology. Prophetic truth has been suppressed for generations; even so, we are promised victory.

Sources: The Pre-Tribulation Rapture Promise

http://www.cephas-library.com/rapture_apostasia_vs_departure.html

Is the Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3?

Greek term 'apostasia' in 2 Thes.2:3 means 'departure' in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum


Quasar92
Nothing we haven't already seen. You might as well turn off the hydrant. Repeated soakings are to no avail.

The "apostasia" claim of rapture has been repeatedly debunked. Unsurprisingly, its proponents ((English, Wuest, House, Ice) are all of 20th century modernist vintage. The claim is a patent example of scriptural mutilation to conform to the modernist dispensational agenda.

None of the Reformers could possibly have believed that 2 Thess. 2:3 referred to a rapture, because they all recognized that the true Church was suffering, and had already been suffering for hundreds of years, under the papal antichrist, the apostate man of sin to which Paul refers in said scripture. Unanimously, they recognized that the scripture spoke of falling away, not flying away.

Apostacia: What Modern Greeks say about "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3.

Excerpt: "I could find no debate among Greek speaking Christians on how to interpret this verse. They all interpret "apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 to mean "apostacy"."

Greek's best interpreters are the Greeks.

In a choice between any Greek believer who gives me the meaning of a Greek word in Greek Scripture, and any non-Greek disbeliever who gives me a diametrically opposite meaning for the exact same Greek word; it doesn't take rocket surgery [sic Don Cherry] to predict which one I'll believe, every time.
 
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Quasar92

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I have read this same information that you have claimed over and over again proves a pretrib removal of the Church.

There is just one little problem.

What you are claiming does not match up to the text.

You can claim it a million times and it still will not match up to the text.


Your whole system falls apart with the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.



Great Errors in Dispensational Eschatology: Pastor John Otis


There is no Plan B of salvation outside of the New Covenant Church, during a future time period.

The New Covenant is about Grace, instead of race. (1 Timothy 1:4)



Php 3:1  Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. 

Php 3:2  Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. 

Php 3:3  For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. 



.


It is a shame you continue to make liars out of Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, by denying their teachings of the pre-trib rapture of the Church. You have yet to field an argument of any kind that is supported by Scripture to verify your claim any of their teachings are false, that prove your views are, as documented in the following:

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Chu

Beginning with Mt.24:31:

And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.

Lk.21:36:
"Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Jn.14:2-4 and 28:
"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].

The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thes.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.

1 Thes.4:13-18:
The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In vs 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In vs 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.


Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thes.1:10; 1 Thes.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5!


The difference between the Second Coming of Christ and the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...eenTheRapt.pdf


Quasar92
 
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Quasar92

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There is little doubt yu did not read my post #202 that prove the rapture of the Church timing is before the tribulation begins; pre-trib!

The pre-trib teachings come directly from Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul as documented in the four post link below:

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum


Quasar92



Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.


Quasar92
 
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BABerean2

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Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.


Quasar92

Revelation 12:11

A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be under the Grace of the New Covenant Church.


.
 
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Quasar92

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Revelation 12:11

A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be under the Grace of the New Covenant Church.


.


Please explain to me in just what way does that have a thing to do in your response to my post #208? That is the very reason the Church exists today together with the coming pre-trib rapture of it. Review the OP!


Quasar92
 
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2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

Hebrews 9 contradicts your claim here;

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
 
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4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.

Please show any scripture that states any resurrected saint returns to heaven at any time. I contend there are none and you only assume and interpret that into select passages.
 
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The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Chu

rch
Beginning with Mt.24:31:
And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.


Jer. 49: 36 And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come.



The events of this passage are on this earth.



Dan.7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.



The events in this passage are a vision about things to happen on this earth.



Dan 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.



The events of this passage are on the earth.



Zech 2: 6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the Lord: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the Lord.



The events of this passage are on the earth



In context none of the above verses refer to heaven where God dwells.

Likewise the passage in Matthew does not describe a roundup of resurrected believers from heaven (where God dwells).

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 
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The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7.


Agree, scriptural truth!


Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thes.4:17.


Opinion and interpretation not based on scripture!


Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years


So you do not believe in a literal resurrection of the physical body????

Jesus said he would raise up those that believe on Him at the last day, not the day they were born again. John 6:40

Job believed in his flesh he would see God. Job 19:25-26

Paul said those dead that are Christ’s would be resurrected up at His coming not when they were born again. 1 Corinthians 15:21-23

Are you not mixing up the spiritual with the literal.
 
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Quasar92 said:

1 Thes.4:13-18:

The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

The day they died physically they were not raised up physically, only their spirits went to heaven to be with Christ.

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

Died physically yes, but only their spirits will return with Him to be raised up in a new body. Verse 14 says those that sleep (dead physically) He will bring with Him (their spirits). Verse 16 says with the trump and a shout the dead will rise first. That is a literal resurrection of the body, if it is not it makes no sense for the spirits to return with Him to be raised up if they were already raised up the day they died.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28],

None of these verses say anyone goes back to heaven; you interpret that into the passage. It only says that where I am, there ye may be also. When Jesus returns He is here and we will be with Him right here nothing says we go back. Does it make sense Jesus has spent 2000 years preparing a place for us that is only temporary residence for 7 years? I believe the place he has prepared for us is described in Revelation 21. This will be our eternal residence with Him.

we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

You are out of the main stream even with many other pre-tribbers on this.

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

Who says it is not documented as a resurrection. In what word are the dead rising not a resurrection?

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.



"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

Confusion abounds in your interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4.


You are mixing spiritual terms with the literal terms and coming to a mixed up conclusion.


"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.
 
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Quasar92

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Hebrews 9 contradicts your claim here;

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Hebrews 9 contradicts your claim here;

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.


The very next return of Jesus, is to the clouds of the Sky when He comes for everyone who believes in Him, His Church, They are then CAUGHT UP together, to meet Him there, before the tribulation begins, as recorded in 1 Thess.4:16-17; 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8. A review of myOP reveals the raptured Church are the ELECT the angels gather from one end of the heavens to the other, recorded in Mt.24:31. Israel, is the ELECT the angels will gather from the four windsw.

The Church is seen at their marriage to the Lamb in heaven, while the tribulation takes place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8.

Jesus will then return to earth WITH HIS RAPTURED CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, as recorded in Rev.19:14. NO ONE COMES TO MEET HIM IN THE SKY as the Church did, seven years before, in 1 Thess,4:17.

Jesus will then fight the battle of Armageddon, leading His armies from heaven to victory over the two beasts, i.e. the Antichrist, the False prophet and the armies of the ten horns/nations allied to them. The two beasts are thrown into the lake of fire, and the armies of the ten horns, destroyed, and the seven year tribulation ends.

Satan is thrown into the Abyss and locked up for 1,000 years, recrded in Rev.20:1-3. The first resurrection will take place and Jesus will establish His 1,000 year kingdom on earth, recorded in Rev.20:6.


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Quasar92

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Hebrews 9 contradicts your claim here;

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.


Quasar92 said:

1 Thes.4:13-18:

The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

The day they died physically they were not raised up physically, only their spirits went to heaven to be with Christ.

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

Died physically yes, but only their spirits will return with Him to be raised up in a new body. Verse 14 says those that sleep (dead physically) He will bring with Him (their spirits). Verse 16 says with the trump and a shout the dead will rise first. That is a literal resurrection of the body, if it is not it makes no sense for the spirits to return with Him to be raised up if they were already raised up the day they died.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28],

None of these verses say anyone goes back to heaven; you interpret that into the passage. It only says that where I am, there ye may be also. When Jesus returns He is here and we will be with Him right here nothing says we go back. Does it make sense Jesus has spent 2000 years preparing a place for us that is only temporary residence for 7 years? I believe the place he has prepared for us is described in Revelation 21. This will be our eternal residence with Him.

we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

You are out of the main stream even with many other pre-tribbers on this.

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

Who says it is not documented as a resurrection. In what word are the dead rising not a resurrection?

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.



"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

Confusion abounds in your interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4.


You are mixing spiritual terms with the literal terms and coming to a mixed up conclusion.


"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.


Show me where I made any claim that anything but the spirit of a believer is raised by Jesus, as recorded in 2 Cor.5:6-8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Each in his/her own turn, ever since Pentecost. Which is what Paul meant, when he wrote that the dead in Christ will rise first - which IS NOT a resurrection. The FIRST resurrection is documented in Rev.20:4, of the tribulation Martyrs, seven years later!

Then, when Jesus returns the FIRST of the next TWO times He returns, it is for His Church, WITH ALL THOSE WHO PREVIOUSLY DIED IN HIM, coming with Him, in 1 Thess.4:14!


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50 Reasons for the Pretribulation Rapture


1. While posttribulationism appeared as early as 2 Thessalonians 2, many in the early church believed in the imminency of the Lord's return, which is an essential doctrine of pretribulationism.

2. The detailed development of the pretribulational truth during the past few centuries does not prove that the doctrine is new or novel. Its development is similar to that of other major doctrines in the history of the church.
Hermeneutics

3. Pretribulationism is the only view that allows literal interpretation of all Old and New Testament passages on the Great Tribulation.

4. Pretribulationism distinguishes clearly between Israel and the church and their respective programs.
Nature of the Tribulation

5. Pretribulationism maintains the scriptural distinction between the Great Tribulation and tribulation in general that precedes it.

6. The Great Tribulation is properly interpreted by pretribulationists as a time of preparation for Israel's restoration (Deu. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11). It is not the purpose of the Tribulation to prepare the church for glory.

7. None of the Old Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Deu. 4:29-30; Jer. 30: 4-11; Dan. 8:24-27; 12:1-2).

8. None of the New Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Matt. 13:30; 39-42, 48-50; 24:15-31; 1 Thess. 1:9-10; 5:4-9; 2 Thess. 2:1-11; Rev. 4-18).

9. In contrast to midtribulationism, the pretribulational view provides an adequate explanation for the beginning of the Great Tribulation in Revelation 6. Midtribulationism is refuted by the plain teaching of Scripture that the Great Tribulation begins long before the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11.

10. The proper distinction is maintained between the prophetic trumpets of Scripture by pretribulationism. There is no proper ground for the pivotal argument of midtribulationism that the seventh trumpet of Revelation is the last trumpet in that there is no established connection between the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11, the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52, and the trumpet of Matthew 24:31. They are three distinct events.

11. The unity of Daniel's seventieth week is maintained by pretribulationists. By contrast, postribulationism and midtribulationists destroy the unity of Daniel's seventieth week and confuse Israel's program with that of the church.
Nature of the Church

12. The translation of the church is never mentioned in any passage dealing with the second coming of Christ after the Tribulation.

13. The church is not appointed to wrath (Rom. 5:9: 1 Thess. 1:9-10; 5:9). The church therefore cannot enter "the great day of their wrath" (Rev. 6:17).

14. The church will not be overtaken by the day of the Lord (1 Thess. 5:1-9, which includes the Tribulation.

15. The possibility of a believer escaping the Tribulation is mentioned in Luke 21:36.

16. The church of Philadelphia was promised deliverance from "the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth" (Rev. 3:10).

17. It is characteristic of divine dealing to deliver believers before a divine judgment is inflicted on the world as illustrated in the deliverance of Noah, Lot, Rahab, etc. (2 Peter 2:5-9).

18. At the time of the translation of the church, all believers go to the Father's house in heaven (John 14:3) and do not immediately return to the earth after meeting Christ in the air as postribulationists teach.

19. Pretribulationism does not divide the body of Christ at the Rapture on a works principle. The teaching of a partial rapture is based on the false doctrine that the translation of the church is a reward for good works. It is rather a climactic aspect of salvation by grace.

20. The Scriptures clearly teach that all, not part, of the church will be raptured at the coming of Christ for the church (1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thess. 4:17).

21. As opposed to a view of a partial rapture, pretribulationism is founded on the definite teaching of Scripture that the death of Christ frees from all condemnation.

22. The godly remnant of the Tribulation are pictured as Israelites, not members of the church as maintained by the posttribulationists.

23. The pretribulational view, as opposed to posttribulationism, does not confuse general terms like elect and saints, which apply to the saved of all ages, with specific terms like church and those in Christ, which refer to believers of this age only.
Doctrine of Imminency

24. The pretribulational interpretation teaches that the coming of Christ is actually imminent.

25. The exhortation to be comforted by the coming of the Lord (1 Thess. 4:18) is very significant in the pretribulational view and is especially contradicted by most posttribulationists.

26. The exhortation to look for "the glorious appearing" of Christ to His own (Titus 2:13) loses its significance if the Tribulation must intervene first. Believers in that case should look for signs.

27. The exhortation to purify ourselves in view of the Lord's return has most significance if His coming is imminent (1 John 3:2-3).

28. The church is uniformly exhorted to look for the coming of the Lord, while believers in the Tribulation are directed to look for signs.
The Work of the Holy Spirit

29. The Holy Spirit as the restrainer of evil cannot be taken out of the world unless the church, which the Spirit indwells, is translated at the same time. The Tribulation cannot begin until this restraint is lifted.

30. The Holy Spirit as the restrainer must be taken out of the world before "the lawless one," who dominates the tribulation period, can be revealed (2 Thess. 2:6-8).

31. If the expression "except there come a falling away first" (KJV) is translated literally, "except the "departure" come first," it would plainly show the necessity of the Rapture taking place before the beginning of the Tribulation.
Necessity of an Interval Between the Rapture and the Second Coming

32. According to 2 Corinthians 5:10, all believers of this age must appear before the judgment seat of Christ in heaven, an event never mentioned in the detailed accounts connected with the second coming of Christ to the earth.

33. If the twenty-four elders of Revelation 4:1-5:14 are representative of the church as many expositors believe, it would necessitate the rapture and reward of the church before the Tribulation.

34. The coming of Christ for His bride must take place before the Second Coming to the earth for the wedding feast (Rev. 19:7-10).

35. Tribulation saints are not translated at the second coming of Christ but carry on ordinary occupations such as farming and building houses, and they will bear children (Isa. 65:20-25). This would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the Second Coming to the earth, as posttribulationists teach.

36. The judgment of the Gentiles following the Second Coming (Matt. 25:31-

46) indicates that both saved and unsaved are still in their natural bodies. This would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the Second Coming.

37. If the translation took place in connection with the Second Coming to the earth, there would be no need of separating the sheep from the goats at a subsequent judgment, but the separation would have taken place in the very act of the translation of the believers before Christ actually sets up His throne on earth (Matt. 25:31).

38. The judgment of Israel (Ezek. 20:34-38), which occurs subsequent to the Second Coming, indicates the necessity of regathering Israel. The separation of the saved from the unsaved in this judgment obviously takes place sometime after the Second Coming and would be unnecessary if the saved had previously been separated from the unsaved by translation.
Contrast Between the Rapture and the Second Coming

39. At the time of the Rapture the saints meet Christ in the air, while at the Second Coming Christ returns to the Mount of Olives to meet the saints on earth.

40. At the time of the Rapture the Mount of Olives is unchanged, while at the Second Coming it divides and a valley is formed to the east of Jerusalem (Zech. 14:4-5).

41. At the Rapture living saints are translated, while no saints are translated in connection with the second coming of Christ to the earth.

42. At the Rapture the saints go to heaven, while at the Second Coming to the earth the saints remain in the earth without translation.

43. At the time of the Rapture the world is unjudged and continues in sin, while at the Second Coming the world is judged and righteousness is established on the earth.

44. The translation of the church is pictured as a deliverance before the day of wrath, while the Second Coming is followed by the deliverance of those who have believed in Christ during the Tribulation.

45. The Rapture is described as imminent, while the Second Coming is preceded by definite signs.

46. The translation of living believers is a truth revealed only in the New Testament, while the Second Coming with its attendant events is a prominent doctrine of both Testaments.

47. The Rapture concerns only the saved, while the Second Coming deals with both saved and unsaved.

48. At the Rapture Satan is not bound, while at the Second Coming Satan is bound and cast into the abyss.

49. No unfulfilled prophecy stands between the church and the Rapture, while many signs must be fulfilled before the Second Coming.

50. No passage dealing with the resurrection of saints at the Second Coming ever mentions translation of living saints at the same time.

From: 50 Reasons for the Pretribulation Rapture50

Written by: John F. Walvoord
(The Rapture Question, Zondervan)


Quasar92
I have just one reason why you're wrong, and it's 2nd Peter chapter 3, the entire chapter. We're putting you one-sided debaters to bed.
 
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Quasar92

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Hebrews 9 contradicts your claim here;

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.


There is nothing whatever in Heb.9 or in 9:28 that contradicts a single thing that I have written. Let me see your attempt to prove it!


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Agree, scriptural truth!





Opinion and interpretation not based on scripture!





So you do not believe in a literal resurrection of the physical body????

Jesus said he would raise up those that believe on Him at the last day, not the day they were born again. John 6:40

Job believed in his flesh he would see God. Job 19:25-26

Paul said those dead that are Christ’s would be resurrected up at His coming not when they were born again. 1 Corinthians 15:21-23

Are you not mixing up the spiritual with the literal.


There are nly two general resurrectins documented in the Bible, recorded in Rev.29:4/5, 1,000 years apart. Every believer RAISED to heaven by Jesus, recorded in 2 Cor.5:6-8, confirning Ecc.12:7, ARE NOT resurrections, Capiche?!


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