Generational divide over white evangelical attitudes on gay marriage

Do all Christians go to heaven? I mean does it matter witch side of any fence you stand on to your salvation?

My grandparents were believing Christians but also slightly (not a lot but I found some certain bits here and there) racist. Now, racist is sinful, in that it is judging people themselves, instead of actions, and that is sin. I can only hope that they had real faith in Christ and can be redeemed in spite of this racism.

But what if instead of racism, their judgments against others had been based on real sins those others were doing, like promiscuity....

Then, it would *still* be a sin for them to have judged, because we are not to judge other people, but only actions/things/ideas (never people themselves).

I have zero judgement against sinners, ideally, and I don't want to trip up on the issue of the day!

I don't want to trip up and sin by judging just because something is the hot-button issue of the moment, or for that matter, even if it isn't.

Instead, our church welcomes all sinners! All. We never say -- first you have to be sinless. We don't say, if you sin, you have to stop coming to church.

They are to come and hopefully find Christ in a real, true way (in the heart). He is the one Who redeems and saves. Not me and my sinful judgments!

So, sinners of all kinds, please come and join us! You are just like me! I'm not better than you! Only Christ can make us better than we are.

Cecil Lewis JR said:

Do all Christians go to heaven? I mean does it matter witch side of any fence you stand on to your salvation?

Click to expand...

Jesus said no to that question.

Matt 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Well some of those those that accept LGBT may not go to heaven. After all the more like the world we are then the less like Christ we are and as some would say on this forum maybe some were not saved to begin with if we continue to choose world things and act like the world While some may say that, I can't really say whos saved or not because I am not God nor do I know what He is thinking. In the end only God knows, I just pray for those who prefer the world more (as christians) be safe and realize which master they may be serving more. And yes I could point to myself too since I am into world things like movies, tv shows, games...etc. Granted that stuff isn't a sin as much as it is something that can change you unless you monitor yourself.

NothingIsImpossible said:

Well some of those those that accept LGBT may not go to heaven. After all the more like the world we are then the less like Christ we are and as some would say on this forum maybe some were not saved to begin with if we continue to choose world things and act like the world While some may say that, I can't really say whos saved or not because I am not God nor do I know what He is thinking. In the end only God knows, I just pray for those who prefer the world more (as christians) be safe and realize which master they may be serving more. And yes I could point to myself too since I am into world things like movies, tv shows, games...etc. Granted that stuff isn't a sin as much as it is something that can change you unless you monitor yourself.

Click to expand...

You and I had better "accept" sinners, and love them, or else we ourselves will pay the price for that wrong, sinful refusal to accept them in their imperfection. We are not to be the Judge. He is the Judge. We are not.

Halbhh said:

You and I had better "accept" sinners, and love them, or else we ourselves will pay the price for that wrong, sinful refusal to accept them in their imperfection. We are not to be the Judge. He is the Judge. We are not.

Click to expand...

Oh no, I agree about accepting them as people. But the article was about favoring gay marriage/approving of it. Which is past the line of acceptance. For example if I had a gay friend and he invited me to his wedding. I would wish him the best but turn down the offer to go as I believe we are not supposed to do anything that essentially shows support for the wedding. Such as I would not bake pastries for such a wedding.

NothingIsImpossible said:

Oh no, I agree about accepting them as people. But the article was about favoring gay marriage/approving of it. Which is past the line of acceptance. For example if I had a gay friend and he invited me to his wedding. I would wish him the best but turn down the offer to go as I believe we are not supposed to do anything that essentially shows support for the wedding. Such as I would not bake pastries for such a wedding.

Click to expand...

hmmm.....would you go into a bar, where people are getting drunk, some of them, others are hooking up, some of them....and talk to a person? You yourself don't have to get drunk or be promiscuous....

NothingIsImpossible said:

Oh no, I agree about accepting them as people. But the article was about favoring gay marriage/approving of it. Which is past the line of acceptance. For example if I had a gay friend and he invited me to his wedding. I would wish him the best but turn down the offer to go as I believe we are not supposed to do anything that essentially shows support for the wedding. Such as I would not bake pastries for such a wedding.

Click to expand...

In Colorado that's it's a crime to refuse to bake a wedding cake for a gay marriage.

A separate part from what I wrote above is the other question of what precisely the sexual sins are. They are not just whatever people think, but instead precise things only, and nothing else or different.

As I know them, the actual sexual sins are these:
Promiscuity (multiple partners), called "fornication"
Lust (even when you don't act on it, even if just in the heart)
Adultery -- if you or the other person is married, and even if you only lust but don't act on it
Sodomy intercourse -- regardless of whether you are male or female (Rom 1:26), regardless of whether you are married or not, regardless of whether your partner is the same gender or not (Rom 1:26). But notice this is a specific thing -- Lev 18:22 -- only sodomy intercourse alone. It's not other stuff even if people don't personally like the other stuff. It's not love. It's not hugging. It's not kissing. It's not even marriage (!...!) etc. We don't add things to scripture that are not in the scripture, or at least I refuse to myself. I don't try to argue with people that want to define marriage in a way that adds to scripture, I just try to warn them of the severe danger to themselves of judging others.

If anyone knows of additional specific and precise sexual sins that are actually specified in clear wording (but not the so called New Living Translation paraphrase (which even adds words not in the sources to the best of my knowledge)), then please do offer them also. This can help if someone wants to answer a specific question that comes up.

Halbhh said:

A separate part from what I wrote above is the other question of what precisely the sexual sins are. They are not just whatever people think, but instead precise things only, and nothing else or different.

As I know them, the actual sexual sins are these:
Promiscuity (multiple partners), called "fornication"
Lust (even when you don't act on it, even if just in the heart)
Adultery -- if you or the other person is married, and even if you only lust but don't act on it
Sodomy intercourse -- regardless of whether you are male or female (Rom 1:26), regardless of whether you are married or not, regardless of whether your partner is the same gender or not (Rom 1:26). But notice this is a specific thing -- Lev 18:22 -- only sodomy intercourse alone. It's not other stuff even if people don't personally like the other stuff. It's not love. It's not hugging. It's not kissing. It's not even marriage (!...!) etc. We don't add things to scripture that are not in the scripture, or at least I refuse to myself. I don't try to argue with people that want to define marriage in a way that adds to scripture, I just try to warn them of the severe danger to themselves of judging others.

If anyone knows of additional specific and precise sexual sins that are actually specified in clear wording (but not the so called New Living Translation paraphrase (which even adds words not in the sources to the best of my knowledge)), then please do offer them also. This can help if someone wants to answer a specific question that comes up.

Click to expand...

It's morally and religiously repugnant because it's a perversion of the natural use of the body.

It's specifically identified with lust, impurity and greed. The abandonment to these desires affords little satisfaction and slavish service to them. Sexual immorality was always an essential element to idolatry, still is,

mark kennedy said:

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. (Rom. 1:26,27)
​

It's morally and religiously repugnant because it's a perversion of the natural use of the body.

Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. (Col. 3:5,6)
​

It's specifically identified with lust, impurity and greed. The abandonment to these desires affords little satisfaction and slavish service to them. Sexual immorality was always an essential element to idolatry, still is,

Click to expand...

Right. That Romans 1 v 26 reference is to sodomy intercourse and even for man/woman couples, and even if married.

It's not about anything else even -- not about other sex acts even.

For other people (not you Mark!) reading this, just for completeness, let me repeat that I recognize and agree and often also say that we are not to judge other people, but instead to accept them and love them, and seek to show and teach them about Christ, the only One Who saves (we ourselves cannot save). We cannot save people by condemning or preaching (not even preaching), but only Christ saves, and only the gospel of the good news about Him can help them if they haven't found Him yet.

essentialsaltes said:

A new survey shows a dramatic shift in attitudes toward favoring gay marriage among a younger generation of white evangelicals, a group considered to be one of the most conservative on the issue.

According to Pew, 47 percent of Generation X/millennial evangelicals (those born after 1964) favor gay marriage, compared with 26 percent of boomer and older evangelicals (those born between 1928 and 1964).

Click to expand...

That's still surprisingly low compared to other mainstream religious groups.

My guess is many young people will simply leave evangelicalism behind in the future. It's not pleasant to be a minority, even a large minority, and have institutions dominated by older, more reactionary voices.

Halbhh said:

hmmm.....would you go into a bar, where people are getting drunk, some of them, others are hooking up, some of them....and talk to a person? You yourself don't have to get drunk or be promiscuous....

Click to expand...

Well some would say drinking is a sin, others would say only getting drunk is a sin. But regardless of that going to a bar doesn't promote others to drink, just yourself. Thankfully I've never drank or done drugs for that matter (drugs meaning also weed).

mark kennedy said:

In Colorado that's it's a crime to refuse to bake a wedding cake for a gay marriage.

Click to expand...

Sadly it is. But if in such a situation I'd rather go to jail.

FireDragon76 said:

My guess is many young people will simply leave evangelicalism behind in the future. It's not pleasant to be a minority, even a large minority, and have institutions dominated by older, more reactionary voices.

Click to expand...

Sadly more and more christian are leaving christianity and the young ones don't even embrace it once they hit their early teens and the world tells them God isn't real.

Aldebaran said:

The difference here is that when people go to a bar, they don't go there as friends and family supporting a common theme. In a wedding ceremony, people are there to show support for, and to celebrate the ones who are getting married. Simply showing up is a statement of support of what is being celebrated there.

Click to expand...

I know it may be a stretch to imagine, but some of these unions are likely either celibate or at least do not do the specific thing that is described (intercourse sodomy), though I would never claim to know who or how many, etc., but therefore it's not the same at all as for some other situation. But it is an example of how we cannot judge, for one thing simply because we don't know exactly what happens (in the majority who never tell anyone anything, etc.), we don't have that total knowledge and that's a key fact for why we should not try to judge. I think an association, relationship, even a 'marriage' of two that are celibate is clearly ok, as best I can understand. I do know that I should remember not to get contentious about it though. Instead I only must say as in post #3 and #6 above, and should not argue with others that want 'marriage' to be a certain way that they are 'wrong' and such and offend them. I think it is enough just to say what I did up there in post #3 or #6, and leave it at that -- we are to accept people, help lead them to Christ, and that is the total of that side, and then we become brothers and sisters in Him. I have my own sins I hope I've overcome, and I focus to remember to pray for help to prevent, and repent of, and continue to follow Him, as He has laid out commands to all of us to do. That's already a full agenda so far as my concern should be directed about sins -- that I should find my own, confess and repent of them.

I do think we can say that Christ would not tell us to refuse to bake a cake for a 'gay' person, nor a tax collector, various other "sinners", etc..... Instead, following Him, I learn I should accept their invitation to come into their home and dine with them in a friendly way. Some need the good news, but all need us to show Christ -- to show the fruits of the spirit, gentleness, love, kindness. That is the Way.

This isn't even really about a specific sin. It's equally true for other sins! Sinners of all sorts need us to show them the fruits of the spirit. Including of course those our own churches are full of, the people right beside you and me in the pews.

Prostitutes, Atheist and all kinds of other sinners get married. And continue sinning. Why shouldn't consenting Gay adult be able to get married. It's really none of business. People need to worry about their own sins.

essentialsaltes said:

A new survey shows a dramatic shift in attitudes toward favoring gay marriage among a younger generation of white evangelicals, a group considered to be one of the most conservative on the issue.

According to Pew, 47 percent of Generation X/millennial evangelicals (those born after 1964) favor gay marriage, compared with 26 percent of boomer and older evangelicals (those born between 1928 and 1964).

Click to expand...

I think Public Schools are making the difference. When I just finished High School, they were trying to teach situational ethics, before that ethics were absolute. They would come up with hypothetical stories like a rapist-murder following a victim hiding in your house. I figured if they can have a make believe victim and bad guy, then I can make up a police force in my house to arrest the bad guy and take her to the hospital. When I was told I can not have the police force, I told them then that they can not have the bad guy which the whole class agreed, no police, no bad guy. The
Teachers were very frustrated with me. When it came to the raft and throwing someone over, we took turns in the water. Again the Teachers tried to say that is not an option, so we decided the raft was a ship with lots of space. The Teacher then would try to say, we can't have a Ship, we voted and decided if you can have a make believe raft, then we can have a make believe ship. Our Generation was more like Captain Kirk, changing the make believe as we saw fit in mind games. Many of us were sent to the Office often, the Principals would just send us to the library or Cafeteria to do our own unsupervised study period because they liked our creative thinking to dumb questions. The problem is the PC mindset being taught in schools today.