4 Day Work Week

Paradoxum

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Many of my friends own their own businesses and so they choose the hours that they work. In order for their services to be marketable (performed at a price level that people are willing to pay) and for them to be able to make the living that they want to make they end up working 5-6 days a week. And this is them setting their own hours and pay.

Good for them?

I guess if we were all enslaved by the state we'd get more done. By is that good? Is more work more good?

I thank God that he has given me something gainful to do 5 days a week so that I can support my family.

I don't get what the point is here.

If you can get a week's work done in 4 10 hour shifts then all the power to you!

Isn't a weeks work arbitrary? Maybe people should work less, and less should be done?

Now you're talking about labor markets. If laborers are being under-payed or under appreciated somewhere then what stops them from finding a better, more competitive employer who is willing to pay them more money for the same work?

Because life doesn't work like that. People need work where they live and stable employment.

Also, maybe the system makes the richest richer, because that's how the system works.
 
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seashale76

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Isn't a weeks work arbitrary? Maybe people should work less, and less should be done?
Hey- how's it going? This is the second time I've seen you express this in the thread. Could you clarify exactly what you mean by this? I can think- off the top of my head- of a few careers where doing less and working less while at work would be disastrous (my own- for example). There are things that are absolutely required no matter what on my job. However- depending on the day and situation- my work load can be much more than the bare minimum protocols one must follow- and if I don't follow through- people could actually die. I'm not exaggerating. Doing less is not an option in some careers. A lot of the time- being vigilant means I often have to initiate a chain of command that ultimately involves/culminates in making more work for myself (and whoever follows me). I guarantee that if you had to see me or my co-workers- you'd be glad we aren't working less on the job.
 
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Tree of Life

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Good for them?

I guess if we were all enslaved by the state we'd get more done. By is that good? Is more work more good?

My point is that the situation you're envisioning is unrealistic. If you only work 4 days then you won't make enough money to afford the kind of lifestyle that you likely want.

I don't get what the point is here.

You say that the 5 day work week is "not fortunate". I say that I'm grateful to work 5 days a week.

Isn't a weeks work arbitrary? Maybe people should work less, and less should be done?

From a Christian perspective the work week was designed by God in the very beginning and is part of the fabric of creation. So it's not arbitrary. If it is violated then mankind will suffer.

In the original context wherein the Sabbath command was given people worked every day. It was an issue of faith to cease working for one day in order to quietly enjoy the work of God and trust that he provides for our needs.

Because life doesn't work like that. People need work where they live and stable employment.

Also, maybe the system makes the richest richer, because that's how the system works.

Ok. It's easy to oppose something or to complain about the current "system". After all, what is crooked cannot be made straight and what is lacking cannot be counted (Ecclesiastes 1:15). It's much more difficult to propose a viable solution. So what do you think should be done? Are you really going to go to your employer and demand that he/she pay you the same wages for one less day of work?
 
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seashale76

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Do you have a job at all? If not, when was the last time you had one? Besides, if you're calling me a brainless cog, that's insulting. It's also ignorant of the very nature of my work. Nor did I say anything in support of "endless work." I'd be for 80 hour work weeks rather than against 50+ hour work weeks if that were the case.
Good questions. Personally- I'd hate to live like this.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Okay, is there a reason that shouldn't be considered sexist?

Because it might be true?

Anyway, why do you say that?

You seem to be extremely negative of work itself. Men strongly attach their self worth to their work. Physically and mentally men are built for work. It's what we do.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Is there any reason to, in principle, oppose a 4 day work week?

People didn't always used to work 5 days a week. It used to be 6 or 7 days and perhaps 14 hours a day.

Progress has brought freedom, and why should that stop?

Why not pursue a 4 day work week?

The amount of days we work seems arbitrary.

As co-founder of a software firm that is in the business (primarily) of management software for retail stores, that seems unacceptable.

We'ld have to hire extra people to ensure support during standard opening hours of our customers, without that support work standing in the way of new development.

This would only raise costs while not raising revenue.

My employees would surely love it. Me, the guy who's paying their wages, not so much.
 
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The economy is structured such that the richest gain from profit, but the average person gains little. This isn't opinion, this fact, and shown in numbers. The economy doesn't work for everyone if it mostly only benefits the richest, which is a fact.

I can't speak for your economy but over here our economy is defined by opportunity, for anyone who chooses to take advantage of it. The rich have done so. Most others are quite content with what they earn. There are many reasons why the poor are poor, some legitimate, some not.

Immaturity and insecurity are probably the biggest reasons why people don't have what they desire. Blame our education system for that.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Maybe more people could be hired (which would help the economy), or the job could be done slower?

So, really... the company has to pay for it either way?
Really what you are asking here is to work less or work slower while expecting the same pay?

Do you think that is fair?
 
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DogmaHunter

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I can't speak for your economy but over here our economy is defined by opportunity, for anyone who chooses to take advantage of it.

Sorry, but that "romantic" version of the "land of opportunity" is simply a delusion.

The fact of the matter is that NOT "anyone who chooses to take advantage of it" is capable of doing so. Generally, those people who get to take the plunge of starting a company, are people who have a safety net. These are people that already START OUT with money.

A buddy of mine is also a founder of his own company. But the guy's parents are rich. When we left school, the dude already had a 5 digit figure on his bank account. Mine had 3.

Last year, his company ran into some cashflow problems. He had 22 employees to pay and no money. There was enough revenue on paper, but the money wouldn't be coming in for another 2 months - and it was also conditional on a job well done. So he went ahead and assumed the job would be well done and decided to "borrow" his company the required money from his private account. So he decided on a whim that he'ld just ransfer €100.000.

If my company would run into such a problem, it would be like a really really really big problem. We'ld be forced to beg our employees to be patient for 2 months till we get some new funds. Or we'ld have to go beg to a bank for a ridiculously expensive loan that would simply postpone the problem.

It is ridiculously untrue that you can be "whoever you want to be" in the US.
And that's not even counting all the things that the rich can do to avoid paying taxes in proportion to their income.

There's this saying that it takes money to make money. It certainly is correct.
The less money you have, to more insanely brilliant you need to be in order to build a succesfull business. If you have the money in advance, you can just "buy" your business.

Believe me, I've been there.
One of our competitors sits on a gigantic pile of cash. When there are deals to be done or sales to be made, we show up in our regular clothes driving our regular cars and demonstrate our awesome product on a regular laptop.

Those other guys, not so much... They drive up in a fat beemer wearing their armani suits, take the prospect out for a diner at a fancy restaurant and stuff them with Dom Perignon while showing a fake smile revealing fake white shiny teeth and when they are drunk enough, then they show them their crappy product.

We are doing very well against them because we have put in a LOT of effort in our product and our product is now clearly superior to theirs. But it wasn't always like that. And while it has always been better... it is very hard to go up against such people - no matter how much better you are. Those who can wave around dollar bills, always are at the advantage.

The rich have done so.

Because they could. The not-rich aren't capable of taking such a plunge into the dark most of the time.

A rich guy who fails in his business adventure, is still rich.
A normal middle class person, loses everything he has. Because the company is all he has.

In short: rich people have everything to gain and almost nothing to lose.

Immaturity and insecurity are probably the biggest reasons why people don't have what they desire. Blame our education system for that.

And money. Don't forget the money.

When we started out, our very first move was to hand over 30% of the company to an investor. We had no other choice. It was either accepting funding, or simply not having the budgets to realise this business.

Would have been a completely different story if my mom and dad would have given me a quarter million after finishing school. My company would also already have been twice the size of what it is now. So would my paycheck.

Money makes money.


EDIT: sorry for the off topic rant, but this particular subject really bothers me :)
 
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So, really... the company has to pay for it either way?
Really what you are asking here is to work less or work slower while expecting the same pay?

Do you think that is fair?
Sorry, but that "romantic" version of the "land of opportunity" is simply a delusion.

The fact of the matter is that NOT "anyone who chooses to take advantage of it" is capable of doing so. Generally, those people who get to take the plunge of starting a company, are people who have a safety net. These are people that already START OUT with money.

A buddy of mine is also a founder of his own company. But the guy's parents are rich. When we left school, the dude already had a 5 digit figure on his bank account. Mine had 3.

Last year, his company ran into some cashflow problems. He had 22 employees to pay and no money. There was enough revenue on paper, but the money wouldn't be coming in for another 2 months - and it was also conditional on a job well done. So he went ahead and assumed the job would be well done and decided to "borrow" his company the required money from his private account. So he decided on a whim that he'ld just ransfer €100.000.

If my company would run into such a problem, it would be like a really really really big problem. We'ld be forced to beg our employees to be patient for 2 months till we get some new funds. Or we'ld have to go beg to a bank for a ridiculously expensive loan that would simply postpone the problem.

It is ridiculously untrue that you can be "whoever you want to be" in the US.
And that's not even counting all the things that the rich can do to avoid paying taxes in proportion to their income.

There's this saying that it takes money to make money. It certainly is correct.
The less money you have, to more insanely brilliant you need to be in order to build a succesfull business. If you have the money in advance, you can just "buy" your business.

Believe me, I've been there.
One of our competitors sits on a gigantic pile of cash. When there are deals to be done or sales to be made, we show up in our regular clothes driving our regular cars and demonstrate our awesome product on a regular laptop.

Those other guys, not so much... They drive up in a fat beemer wearing their armani suits, take the prospect out for a diner at a fancy restaurant and stuff them with Dom Perignon while showing a fake smile revealing fake white shiny teeth and when they are drunk enough, then they show them their crappy product.

We are doing very well against them because we have put in a LOT of effort in our product and our product is now clearly superior to theirs. But it wasn't always like that. And while it has always been better... it is very hard to go up against such people - no matter how much better you are. Those who can wave around dollar bills, always are at the advantage.



Because they could. The not-rich aren't capable of taking such a plunge into the dark most of the time.

A rich guy who fails in his business adventure, is still rich.
A normal middle class person, loses everything he has. Because the company is all he has.

In short: rich people have everything to gain and almost nothing to lose.



And money. Don't forget the money.

When we started out, our very first move was to hand over 30% of the company to an investor. We had no other choice. It was either accepting funding, or simply not having the budgets to realise this business.

Would have been a completely different story if my mom and dad would have given me a quarter million after finishing school. My company would also already have been twice the size of what it is now. So would my paycheck.

Money makes money.


EDIT: sorry for the off topic rant, but this particular subject really bothers me :)

No problem, I get it. But I think you are projecting your experience a bit too broadly. You have touched on one of the two greatest reasons for failure, imo. One is that you must "start a company" in order to get rich, the other being an unrealistic time frame in which to succeed. "I want to be a millionaire by age 30" is a familiar one. Very immature and totally unrealistic.

"Get rich slow" is the proper approach.

Real estate is still the very best way for the average person to get rich. One can buy property with little down, improve the property with your own labor, while living in the property and collecting rent from roommates (assuming one is smart enough to stay unmarried for a few years). No college degree needed. Simple, eh?

How does one get the money for the down payment? Start in high school by working at McD's or the local supermarket, or both during the summer.

Any type of employment is the gateway to wealth. Start saving early and it becomes a habit. The more one has in the bank the more clearly one can see a successful future. Then when "preparation meets opportunity" you're on your way.

Don't they teach this stuff in school? ;)
 
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seashale76

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No problem, I get it. But I think you are projecting your experience a bit too broadly. You have touched on one of the two greatest reasons for failure, imo. One is that you must "start a company" in order to get rich, the other being an unrealistic time frame in which to succeed. "I want to be a millionaire by age 30" is a familiar one. Very immature and totally unrealistic.

"Get rich slow" is the proper approach.

Real estate is still the very best way for the average person to get rich. One can buy property with little down, improve the property with your own labor, while living in the property and collecting rent from roommates (assuming one is smart enough to stay unmarried for a few years). No college degree needed. Simple, eh?

How does one get the money for the down payment? Start in high school by working at McD's or the local supermarket.

Any type of employment is the gateway to wealth. Start saving early and it becomes a habit. The more one has in the bank the more clearly one can see a successful future. Then when "preparation meets opportunity" you're on your way.

For some it works out that it happens quickly. I know someone that (wasn't raised with mega bucks) made a startup for a class project with some friends while at Stanford- sold the company for millions and is now a venture capitalist. My husband knows some folks that had a successful startup (great niche idea) and sold it for over a billion- and have now made another start up to directly compete with the company they sold. They all managed to do this before hitting the big 3-0- but didn't necessarily do it knowing they would get rich. They just had a good business plan, filled a niche/need, had the skills to make it happen, and invested work and time in it. It paid off.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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For some it works out that it happens quickly. I know someone that (wasn't raised with mega bucks) made a startup for a class project with some friends while at Stanford- sold the company for millions and is now a venture capitalist. My husband knows some folks that had a successful startup (great niche idea) and sold it for over a billion- and have now made another start up to directly compete with the company they sold. They all managed to do this before hitting the big 3-0- but didn't necessarily do it knowing they would get rich. They just had a good business plan, filled a niche/need, had the skills to make it happen, and invested work and time in it. It paid off.

True, but these folks are far from being 'average'.
 
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DogmaHunter

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No problem, I get it. But I think you are projecting your experience a bit too broadly. You have touched on one of the two greatest reasons for failure, imo. One is that you must "start a company" in order to get rich, the other being an unrealistic time frame in which to succeed. "I want to be a millionaire by age 30" is a familiar one. Very immature and totally unrealistic.
"Get rich slow" is the proper approach.


I didn't say anything about timeframes or "get rich quick" schemes.
I'm purely talking about the "start up" period. Which, depending on the industry, can take anywhere from a couple of months to several years. In our case, it's several years. The business model depends basically on maintenance contracts.

The money we get from sales, from licenses, is certainly good money, but it's not recurring income. Maintenance fees are recurring income. So you need to build that empire, which takes years. If we have a bad month, then we have no money.

And those "bad months" or "lesser periods" is what I'm talking about here.
Every company, no matter how big or small or succesfull, knows ups and downs. Running the company during the "ups" is easy. It's the downs that will make or break it in the long run.

What I'm saying is that people who have that safety net, who started out WITH money - those are the people that have no problem at all to bridge such periods. Those are also the people who can literally buy their way into the industry. They have the funds and the means to take a loss today as an investement for the future. In terms of our business model, they could sell at half the price to get their customer base into "critical mass" in terms of recuring maintenance fees a lot faster.

I never said it was impossible for the "middle class" to do it. Heck, I'm doing it right now. But there is a cost... Like having to hand over a good piece of the pie to some guy (with money - imagine that...) in order to get the required funds for the start-up and basically simply put everything on the line.

During the first year, I seriously crapped my pants. Luckily we pulled through the hardest part. If we would have failed, I would have been bankrupt. Starting this thing up, is by far the scariest thing I ever did. It took me months to gather my courage to take that plunge. My friend I was talking about, with the 5 digit bank account.... he thought about it for literally 15 minutes and then quit his regular day job. If he would have failed, it wouldn't have been a big deal. 50 grand down the toilet, "so what".

Real estate is still the very best way for the average person to get rich. One can buy property with little down, improve the property with your own labor, while living in the property and collecting rent from roommates (assuming one is smart enough to stay unmarried for a few years). No college degree needed. Simple, eh?

How does one get the money for the down payment? Start in high school by working at McD's or the local supermarket, or both during the summer.

Any type of employment is the gateway to wealth. Start saving early and it becomes a habit. The more one has in the bank the more clearly one can see a successful future. Then when "preparation meets opportunity" you're on your way.

Point remains. It is always easier for the rich to "get started" in such adventures. I think you seriously underestimate the "easy mode" of having such a safety net.
Also, most people have plenty to lose and have plenty of responsabilities.

Sure, if I had nobody to care for, no mortgages to pay and would always be able to simply move back into my parent's house if things went wrong, it would have been a LOT easier for me to take that plunge. But I have a wife, a kid, a house to pay,... If I fail, they fail along with me. I even consider it selfish in a way that I decided to take this plunge. We do okay and it seems the most "dangerous" period is behind us and I have no regrets. The point is that if I would have been rich to start out with, there wouldn't have been a "dangerous" period in the first place.
 
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For some it works out that it happens quickly. I know someone that (wasn't raised with mega bucks) made a startup for a class project with some friends while at Stanford- sold the company for millions and is now a venture capitalist. My husband knows some folks that had a successful startup (great niche idea) and sold it for over a billion- and have now made another start up to directly compete with the company they sold. They all managed to do this before hitting the big 3-0- but didn't necessarily do it knowing they would get rich. They just had a good business plan, filled a niche/need, had the skills to make it happen, and invested work and time in it. It paid off.

Yes. And for every one of such stories, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of stories of people who've lost everything. But you don't hear about them. Media doesn't write about them.

You only read / hear about the people that have amazing success.

It's a terrible delusion that people have, especially about the US. They'll take the extremely rare case of the 25-year old who starts with nothing and becomes a billionair by the age of 30 and then say "hey, that could be you!!", while in reality you'll have a better chance of becoming a millionaire by winning the lottery.

In reality, most start-ups go bankrupt within the first year.
 
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Hey- how's it going? This is the second time I've seen you express this in the thread.

Well I do have multiple people to reply to. And this is the point I'm making.

Could you clarify exactly what you mean by this?

I'd like to, but you didn't ask any questions to show where I need to clarify .

I can think- off the top of my head- of a few careers where doing less and working less while at work would be disastrous (my own- for example).

Fair enough, what are some examples?

There are things that are absolutely required no matter what on my job.

Why don't you have to do them on Saturday and Sunday? (I'm assuming)

However- depending on the day and situation- my work load can be much more than the bare minimum protocols one must follow- and if I don't follow through- people could actually die. I'm not exaggerating. Doing less is not an option in some careers. A lot of the time- being vigilant means I often have to initiate a chain of command that ultimately involves/culminates in making more work for myself (and whoever follows me). I guarantee that if you had to see me or my co-workers- you'd be glad we aren't working less on the job.

Why so? I'm genuinely asking.

Also, humans can go to the Moon, fly, make quantum computers, and soon go to Mars, but a four day work work is just impossible, even though people used to work more?
 
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