Salvation?

Wordkeeper said:

Adam was told not to become mentally competent, have the ability to tell good from evil, because he had not finished the process of subduing his body through fellowship with God.

Now, because of Christ work of reconciliation, we can finish the process of putting to death the deeds of the body through the Spirit.

What's so difficult to understand about that?

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This stuff is not even in the Bible. This mentally competent jive. If it is. Show me the verses

ladodgers6 said:

But Scripture gives very little of Lucifer's account. But we have Adam & Eve's account. Where Adam is placed in the Garden Temple to Rule over it. He is a High Priest to guard this Temple against evil. God gives His commandments as constitution for His people. Adam was also to multiply the earth with God's people to spread His glory through out the planet.

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God never calls Adam a high priest because before sin, there is no need to make sacrifice for sin. That is backwards.

ToBeLoved said:

This stuff is not even in the Bible. This mentally competent jive. If it is. Show me the verses

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ToBeLoved said:

Please include scripture. Adam did not know evil until after the fall.

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Jesus loved children because they were not sinners, their angels were always in the presence of God. That's because children don't know good from evil.

Paul says when he became aware of the Law, grew up, could tell good from evil, he died. Because he became a sinner and sinners can't see God. One becomes a sinner only when one can tell good from evil.

If we can't see God, lose fellowship with God, we can't continue to grow spiritually. That's why separation from God is spiritual death.

The Fall is the state of man after spiritual death, separation from God, loss of the Spirit through which the deeds of the body could be put to death.

The Fall took place after Adam acquired the ability to tell good from evil on eating of the fruit.

So Adam knew good from evil before the Fall.
Knowing good from evil caused the Fall.

Your mental competence stuff is not even Biblical so let's stick to Biblical concepts about Adam.

Try getting through one concept before many others. It only confuses the issue.
Now your scripture that Adam know good from evil before the fall and could distinguish evil? Because Adam did not know evil.

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When people lose the part of the brain through accidents, they stop being able to tell good from evil. They don't know it's wrong to steal, to kill, to lie.

You think that God, who made man, doesn't know about the functioning of the brain?

Bible teachings about mental competence:

Adam was warned not to get the ability to tell good from evil because he would Fall, die spiritually.

Genesis 2:16The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

Isaiah talks about a age when children will be able to make a choice. How? They grow up. Their brains develop fully:

Isaiah 7:14“Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel. 15“He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good. 16“For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken.

Moses explains why those under 21 would enter the Promised Land, because they couldn’t be found guilty for no fault of their own:

Deuteronomy 1:39Moreover, your little ones who you said would become a prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it.

John tells us about how the parents lay the blame for the blind son’s views on his own head, because he had become of age:

John 9: 20His parents answered them and said, “We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind; 21but how he now sees, we do not know; or who opened his eyes, we do not know. Ask him; he is of age, he will speak for himself.” 22His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jews; for the Jews had already agreed that if anyone confessed Him to be Christ, he was to be put out of the synagogue. 23For this reason his parents said, “He is of age; ask him.”

Wordkeeper said:

The Fall took place after Adam acquired the ability to tell good from evil on eating of the fruit.
So Adam knew good from evil before the Fall.
Knowing good from evil caused the Fall.

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So what then do you say
to those of us who since Moses wrote Genesis
have always understood the eating of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good AND evil
to BE the Fall of Adam...

eg DISOBEDIENCE to his Creator IS the Fall of Adam...
eg The TURNING AWAY FROM GOD is the cause of death in Adam...

So which event
AFTER Adam turned away from God
constituted Adam's FALL??

What do you understand to be the difference, Biblically, between KNOWING and DISCERNING?
You seem to conflate them when you write that it was only upon EATING THE FRUIT
that Adam was then able to "tell good from evil"...
What does fruit mean? What is the fruit of evil? How does one eat of it?

Arsenios

Arsenios said:

So what then do you say
to those of us who since Moses wrote Genesis
have always understood the eating of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good AND evil
to BE the Fall of Adam...

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The Fall is a demotion, a downgrade.

If a person is a noble, and marries a commoner, he or she becomes a commoner.

Princess Mako of Japan to lose royal status by marrying commoner

How the mighty have fallen!

Cause = Marriage
Effect = Fall to commoner status

In Adam's case :

Cause: gaining knowledge of good and evil
Effect: separation from God because of sin

You see, when Adam could not tell good from evil, the law did not exist for him.

Am I wrong? If a person is a minor, he can't be procecuted under law, so the law does not exist for him. And where there is no law, there is no transgression.

Conversely, where there is law, there IS transgression, as long as sanctification and glorification, perfection, is not complete. And where there is understanding, mental competence, there there is law.

So the Fall in Adam's case is demotion from "You can't touch me" to "it's open season on me".

It wasn't a demotion from "Can't sin" to "Have sinned" as your statement indicates. If Adam couldn't sin, how did he eventually sin?

ToBeLoved said:

God never calls Adam a high priest because before sin, there is no need to make sacrifice for sin. That is backwards.

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I beg to differ. The Garden was a Temple. God told Adam to guard it against evil.

Arsenios said:

Death encompasses all sin... All sin results in death...

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I agree with you here. Now where I think we part ways, is how sin is committed? The Reformed view is by breaking God's Law. You said before and please correct me if I am wrong. That in EOC position there is no legal ratifications. So if there is no ramifications for sin. How do people sin, if not by breaking God's commandments?

I can show you death in a new-born...
Can YOU show me his or her SIN???

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Are you only talking about physical death? Look at the daily news. I think that sin is the most verifiable doctrine of the Bible that we can see everyday. Just take a look around. But again I will provide Scripture, in Psalms 51, King David says to God.

5Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

We get death from Adam because he died when he sinned and only AFTER that sin did he conceive by his seed...

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death...

We 'earn' the death we have inherited by sinning,
for "upon this death all have sinned..."

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We are sentenced to condemnation & death, because of the imputation of Adam's sin. In that One Act we are sentenced to death and condemnation. Sin came into this world THROUGH One Man, and death and through Sin, by One Act of obedience. In that One Act we 'ALL SINNED'.

Read the following very S-L-O-W-L-Y...

5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses,
even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression,
who is the figure of him that was to come.

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I know I am the dumbest Christian in Christendom, but please dear friend, bear with me in my learning limitations. I am trying my hardest to grasp your EOC position.

Now answering your point here, which is a very excellent point, indeed. I will quote the two vss. 13,14. To get a better picture.

13for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

Now, the key here to understand is that Death still reigned. Paul makes a emphasis on Death still Reigned, between Adam & Moses. But sin is not counted where there is no Law, Paul says. So if they did not have the Law, then no sin is counted against them. So if there is no sin, then there is no death.

But Paul says that Death stilled Reigned. Why? We must ask ourselves. Paul answers this question in vs. 19.

19For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.

So the reason why Death & Condemnation stilled REIGNED was because of the imputation of that One Act of disobedience. This is the point Paul is driving home because it leads or drives us to Christ; so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.

Adam is the Old Man...
He is dead...
He was born dead...
Save his life and you will lose YOUR life...
Lose his life so as to find YOUR life in Christ...

We did not receive the death sentence...
We received the opportunity for repentance!

Arsenios

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I beg to differ, Adam was not born dead. 12Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned...

So Adam was not born dead.

Re-read the following very S-L-O-W-L-Y...

5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses,
even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression,
who is the figure of him that was to come.

Your confusion is with Scripture, not with me.

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My confusion is with Scripture??? Why such a comment, my friend. I know I am not a smart person. I know what I believe and why I believe it. But do not worry I am not offended. All I want to do is discuss theology, because I love to read, study and learn God's word. Thanks for your comments, and have a bless day.

Oh, BTW I answered the last part already.

Wordkeeper said:

What is the fall?


It is the change in the state of humanity.


Man could be with God, could progress from being unsubdued to subdued through the holy spirit.


This was because he was not culpable. To be culpable a person must know what he is doing. Simple common sense.


God intended for man to know right from wrong but after he subdued his body.


However Adam jumped the gun.


As a result he knew right from wrong but he was stuck with his unsubdued body.


As soon as he knew right from wrong he became culpable and transgressed. The wages of sin is death and Adam died, was separated from God who is the source of spiritual life. Because no impure person can see God.


God removed Adam from His presence for his own safety. If Adam had remained in God's presence he would have died.


However, God continued to complete His plan of having a human family who would become what He had originally had in mind, who would all become like Jesus.

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I asked for scripture, but none is here. Please add scripture.

ladodgers6 said:

13-14
for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given,
but sin is not counted where there is no law.
Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses,
even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam,
who was a type of the one who was to come.

Now, the key here to understand is that Death still reigned. Paul makes a emphasis on Death still Reigned, between Adam & Moses. But sin is not counted where there is no Law, Paul says. So if they did not have the Law, then no sin is counted against them. So if there is no sin, then there is no death.

But Paul says that Death stilled Reigned. Why? We must ask ourselves. Paul answers this question in vs. 19.

19For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.

So the reason why Death & Condemnation stilled REIGNED was because of the imputation of that One Act of disobedience. This is the point Paul is driving home because it leads or drives us to Christ; so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.


I beg to differ, Adam was not born dead. 12Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned...

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So Adam was not born dead.

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I never said he was - I said WE ALL are born dead IN HIM...

Because he died, you see...

Death reigns in all except those reborn in Christ...

It is UPON DEATH that ALL have SINNED...

Just as it is UPON CHRIST that the Jews stumble and many are saved...

Arsenios

ladodgers6 said:

I agree with you here. Now where I think we part ways, is how sin is committed? The Reformed view is by breaking God's Law. You said before and please correct me if I am wrong. That in EOC position there is no legal ratifications. So if there is no ramifications for sin. How do people sin, if not by breaking God's commandments?

Click to expand...

A Commandment is not the Law:

Commandment: "Thou shalt not commit adultery."
The Law: "Whosoever shall commit adultery
By the witness of two or three witnesses...
Shall be stoned."

The Law is BASED on the COMMANDMENT...
The Commandment is prior to the Law upon which it is based...

Yet "Death reigned even in the absence of Adamic sin from Adam until Moses gave the Law."
And it is "upon this reigning Death" that ALL have sinned...

Sin did not come into the world because of the Law...
The Law came into the world because of sin...

Sin is ontological...
Law is juridical...

The ramifications of sin are ontological...
The ramifications of Law are juridical...

The Law is a crutch for the infirm...

Everything that is not OF GOD is sin...

Arsenios

Arsenios said:

I never said he was - I said WE ALL are born dead IN HIM...

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I quote your post.

Arsenios said:

Adam is the Old Man...
He is dead...
He was born dead...
Save his life and you will lose YOUR life...
Lose his life so as to find YOUR life in Christ...

We did not receive the death sentence...
We received the opportunity for repentance!

Arsenios

Click to expand...

If you want to correct it, that's fine. We all make mistakes.

Because he died, you see...

Death reigns in all except those reborn in Christ...

It is UPON DEATH that ALL have SINNED...

Just as it is UPON CHRIST that the Jews stumble and many are saved...

Arsenios

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I will say, that we are dead in trespasses & sins. Death is the consequence of sin. That's why Christ became a curse for us. Because the Law keeps sinners bound, because of sin. But Christ fulfilled the Law for us. To free us from its bondage & curse. God made us alive IN CHRIST.

I am only sharing what I believe and why I believe it. Because no flesh will be justified through the Law.
The sinner's only hope is Christ and him crucified.

ladodgers6 said:

My confusion is with Scripture???
Why such a comment, my friend.

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That remark of mine was specifically linked to the mistranslation of that one word which I showed to you, the epi w, or eph w, the w being the relative pronoun referring to Death. You had this death as the result of our sin, and I had it as the cause of our sin, because it was the result of Adam's sin, and was not the result of our sin. Paul here agrees with me, and I showed that to you, which means that I "proved by Scripture" the error of your "position", because Scripture plainly states that "Death reigned over those who had not sinned like Adam." Hence your confusion over this eph w which you had confused with a bad translation which allowed it to be understood as kata w, meaning 'resulting in' death...

The reason I used this with you is in honor of your belief in sola Scriptura, which constricts me in discussions with you to Scriptural issues where you are mis-understanding the written words... Hence by saying "Your confusion is with Scripture, not with me" I handed you off from any reliance on your part on me to the actual holy words of Scripture which accords with your doctrinal dogmatic of your sola...

Sorry if it sounded like a taunt - Re-reading it, it does indeed sound like a taunt, and I was not careful when I typed it, letting it go without editing it back so that it could not be a taunt. I remember at the time thinking: "Well, if it sounds like a taunt, I will let it sound like one, because I made the case for confusion of Scripture and he is [you are] not getting it." For this miscreance, I am verey sorry - I was trying to give you a jolt for a wake up for you, and that is not really mine to give. Please forgive a sinful old man named Arsenios.

Thank-you for your kind words...

Arsenios

ladodgers6 said:

I quote your post.
If you want to correct it, that's fine. We all make mistakes.

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The Old Man, as he is born in us when we are born, is born dead...

Thanks for the correction.

Arsenios

ladodgers6 said:

I will say, that we are dead in trespasses & sins. Death is the consequence of sin.

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Rom 5:12 "...death passed upon all men, for that (eph w) [upon which] all have sinned

You are still arguing with Scripture...
You are still confusing "for that" with "upon which"...

Death resulted from Adam's sin...
Adam passed his Death "upon all men..."
Our sin results from Adam's Death...
We inherit Adam's Death...
UPON Adam's Death, ALL have sinned...

Arsenios

Arsenios said:

A Commandment is not the Law:

Commandment: "Thou shalt not commit adultery."
The Law: "Whosoever shall commit adultery
By the witness of two or three witnesses...
Shall be stoned."

The Law is BASED on the COMMANDMENT...
The Commandment is prior to the Law upon which it is based...

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Sounds like we are splitting hairs here. Moses gave God's Commandments to the nation of Israel as a constitution for theocracy. The Israelites replied all this we will do. But we know the outcome. We know what happen when they did sin against God's commandments.

Yet "Death reigned even in the absence of Adamic sin from Adam until Moses gave the Law."
And it is "upon this reigning Death" that ALL have sinned...

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No, death did not Reign because Adam's sin was absence from Adam to Moses. How could they have sin, if there was no Law between Adam & Moses? And where there is no sin, there is no death. Paul makes it clear that death came through Sin. And sin entered the world through One Man; One Act of disobedience.

14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

But death still reigned even over those who did not have the Law? So no sin was imputed or counted against them. Why? Because of the One Act of Sin, many were constituted sinners, vs 19a.

There is no way around this, my Friend. Paul is pointing sinners to Christ; so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous, vs. 19b.

This is our Justification found only in the person and works of Christ Alone!

Sin did not come into the world because of the Law...
The Law came into the world because of sin...

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I beg to differ. Though I answered this already. I will quote Scripture.

14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

Sin is ontological...
Law is juridical...

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Still researching ontology. Because the result I am getting is that it is a argument for the existence of God. Can you point in the right direction, to what Ontology means for the EOC position?

The ramifications of sin are ontological...
The ramifications of Law are juridical...

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Still need to buy a vowel.

The Law is a crutch for the infirm...

Everything that is not OF GOD is sin...

Arsenios

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The Law is not a crutch for the infirm...it is a curse for the ungodly. But the Law also provides some Grace Because it drives sinners to hat saves; namely Christ Jesus.

ToBeLoved said:

I asked for scripture, but none is here. Please add scripture.

Click to expand...

When people lose the part of the brain through accidents, they stop being able to tell good from evil. They don't know it's wrong to steal, to kill, to lie.

You think that God, who made man, doesn't know about the functioning of the brain?

Bible teachings about mental competence:

Adam was warned not to get the ability to tell good from evil because he would Fall, die spiritually.

Genesis 2:16The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

Isaiah talks about a age when children will be able to make a choice. How? They grow up. Their brains develop fully:

Isaiah 7:14“Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel. 15“He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good. 16“For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken.

Moses explains why those under 21 would enter the Promised Land, because they couldn’t be found guilty for no fault of their own:

Deuteronomy 1:39Moreover, your little ones who you said would become a prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it.

John tells us about how the parents lay the blame for the blind son’s views on his own head, because he had become of age:

John 9: 20His parents answered them and said, “We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind; 21but how he now sees, we do not know; or who opened his eyes, we do not know. Ask him; he is of age, he will speak for himself.” 22His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jews; for the Jews had already agreed that if anyone confessed Him to be Christ, he was to be put out of the synagogue. 23For this reason his parents said, “He is of age; ask him.”

ladodgers6 said:

I beg to differ as you already know. You limit only one evil that we inherit; death. We inherit both evils, sin & death. I am curious to ask you this. Why do you limit only death to us? Why not Adam's sin? The reason why I ask is that you acknowledge that death IS the result of that One Act of Sin. So why do the rest of rest get death, when we did not SIN? For the wages of sin is Death.

Romans 6:23For the wages of sin is death...

Why is our death the result of that ONE SIN? We did not sin. You said our personal sins are separate from Adam's. But yet we receive the death sentence from Adam's personal sin? This does not make any sense. Then you said with or without Adam's sin, we inherit death? Which is it? This is getting more confusing.

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The idea that man inherited Adam's sin will make God a liar or an irrational deity.

God said eat the fruit, and you will surely die. Adam ate, and died spiritually. We inherit Adam's death; it is an inheritance and there is nothing we can do about it.

If we inherit Adam's sin, for this sin we will surely die (God's decree). Now God says, for by grace you are saved through faith. Hey, we can be saved, we won't die. God lied, I have Adam's sin and I won't die. Or, God changed His mind, ok, I take my word back, you won't surely die, and that contradicts HIS words, my words go out and never come back. If God changed His mind, the Bible cannot be trusted. There is no basis to believe, the entire gospel collapses, Christianity collapses!

This part of the gospel should be very simple.

1. Adam was created without sin, but has the capacity to sin, and he did. We did not inherit evil, we were created with the capacity to sin. The capacity to sin is man's freewill.
2. Adam ate the fruit, he died, and all man dies (inheritance).
3. By God's grace, through the New Covenant, God through Jesus, provides a way to recover from this position (death) - parallel covenants, study the Book of Esther.
4. Those who repent, believe, and abide in Jesus will live. Those who persist in sins will not recover from the inherited position - the wages of sin is death.

Arsenios said:

Yet Death reigned even in the absence of Adamic sin from Adam until Moses gave the Law.
And it is "upon this reigning Death" that ALL have sinned...

Click to expand...

ladodgers said:

No, death did not Reign because Adam's sin was absent from Adam to Moses. How could they have sin, if there was no Law between Adam & Moses? And where there is no sin, there is no death. Paul makes it clear that death came through Sin. And sin entered the world through One Man; One Act of disobedience.

Click to expand...

Death did indeed reign... Your argument is with Paul... Look:

Paul records:
Rom 5:14
Nevertheless, Death reigned from Adam to Moses...



He further notes that sin was in the world but was not imputed until Moses gave the Law.
Sin is the consequence of the reign of Death in the world for man in Adam who is dead because he broke one commandment.

Death reigned from Adam till Moses...

You are simply mistaken...

Arsenios

Salvation?

W2L said:

What must we do to be saved?

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Do exactly what the repentant thief on the cross did.

brinny said:

Salvation?


Do exactly what the repentant thief on the cross did.

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He died on the cross.