Pretribbers, which pretrib "details" have proven true?

JacksBratt · Jun 26, 2017

Biblewriter said:
It is hardly stereotyping to say that many of my own group are irresponsible in their handling of the scriptures. Actually there are very few, if any, groups for which that statement would not be 100% accurate.

I would agree, many people are irresponsible and even biased in handling scriptures. However, to state that all people of one view of one particular issue, that all have made predictions or believe a certain way on other issues.... is not what I would consider acceptable.

Adstar · Jun 26, 2017

JacksBratt said:
You say "some Christians" will be protected. What about the rest of the 2.2 billion people who are children of Christ... His sheep?

I understand, Christ could, somehow, protect us from the carnage. However, the action of the coming one world government will be directly against anyone claiming Christs rightful glory, honor, worship and kingship. How do you hide or protect 30% of the population?

I don't believe there are 2.2billion people in this world who are children of Christ ... Maybe 2.2 million... Maybe less.. I believe most people who identify themselves as Christians are not Christians at all.. But anyway if God wills for me to be killed during the great tribulation then so be it.. His will shall be done.. Hopefully i will serve His purpose if i am killed..

And God is well able to hide people if He wants.. He can cause people to be unable to see someone even if they are standing in plain site..

Adstar · Jun 26, 2017

JacksBratt said:
So, let me get this right, people, who have accepted Christ and repented of their sins, putting their faith in Him, for salvation..... will be deceived and fall to the whiles of the anti Christ?

No.. People who believe Jesus and have embraced the Atonement He secured for their salvation will not be given over to deception but by the power of Gods Holy Spirit will be made wise to know the deception is deception when it comes...

Those who are not true Christians will be given over to delusion and be made vulnerable to the deception of satan when the time comes... Because they have rejected the Love of the truth by which they would be saved..

Have a read and understand whats coming:::

2 Thessalonians 2:KJV
1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, {2} That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. {3} Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; {4} Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. {5} Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? {6} And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. {7} For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. {8} And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: {9} Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, {10} And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. {11} And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: {12} That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

JacksBratt · Jun 26, 2017

Adstar said:
I don't believe there are 2.2billion people in this world who are children of Christ ... Maybe 2.2 million... Maybe less.. I believe most people who identify themselves as Christians are not Christians at all.. But anyway if God wills for me to be killed during the great tribulation then so be it.. His will shall be done.. Hopefully i will serve His purpose if i am killed..

And God is well able to hide people if He wants.. He can cause people to be unable to see someone even if they are standing in plain site..

Well, that's your view and you have every right to believe that.

As for the numbers. I got it from the internet. I don't know if that means people who classify themselves as Christian in even the most remote way. For instance "I'm not Muslim, so I'm Christian". I don't know.
However that is the correct figure... 2.2 Billion Christians.

I do believe that it is way way more than 2.2 million. Maybe closer to 1 billion truly saved followers of Christ.
Even so, at this number, the power in combined prayer, along with the Holy Spirit.... the seven years of tribulation would take 100 years.

JacksBratt · Jun 26, 2017

Adstar said:
No.. People who believe Jesus and have embraced the Atonement He secured for their salvation will not be given over to deception but by the power of Gods Holy Spirit will be made wise to know the deception is deception when it comes...

Those who are not true Christians will be given over to delusion and be made vulnerable to the deception of satan when the time comes... Because they have rejected the Love of the truth by which they would be saved..

Have a read and understand whats coming:::

2 Thessalonians 2:KJV
1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, {2} That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. {3} Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; {4} Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. {5} Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? {6} And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. {7} For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. {8} And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: {9} Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, {10} And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. {11} And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: {12} That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

I see what you are saying. I understand that. However, how do you perceive Christ protecting these true believers from the global dragnet that will be in place to catch and kill these people.

LastSeven · Jun 26, 2017

DennisTate said:
Dr. Richard Eby:

He paused as though the joy of that thought had overwhelmed him for the moment.

"My Father assures me that the time is yet a little while, but very little. Soon he will call those already in paradise to surround me as we descend from this third heaven to the first heaven around the Earth. The souls of all my saints will be instantly clothed in their new resurrection bodies, as will the living saints on Earth who rise to us in the glory cloud! At the sounding trumpet they all receive new bodies and rise to meet us in the air. We return as my body to my throne room with the Father. Now do you understand why I called this place a temporary abiding place? Do you grasp what it will mean to be one with me and the Father in your incorruptible bodies? My book states that I assumed mankind's sin so you "might be made the righteousness of God' in me!"

I can clearly recall how Jesus' voice paused at this moment. He was savoring an anticipation too intense and private to be revealed. Was he pre-living that moment at which he would enjoy the victory which his Father would give him as the eternal reward for his own long-suffering? His own sting of death would be swallowed up, and he would be the omniscient Head of a completed and compliant body for whom he had shed his blood on a terrible cross. He would reign as KING of the Jews after these days of grace. Then his thoughts returned to me.

"My son, when that time has come, my Father will call to me. The applause of the heavenly hosts will be deafening; they too have been awaiting that day, ever since they announced my birth to the shepherds at Bethlehem so long ago. Scoffers will gaze with fear and wonder as my angelic hosts watch me fulfill my promise to my earthly body of believers at my soon return to Earth." (Richard Eby, near-death .com)

Test such things against scripture.

Genesis 3:19
By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

Job 7:21
Why then do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."

Job 14:10:12
But man dies and lies prostrate man expires, and where is he? "As water evaporates from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dried up, so man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, he will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.

Psalm 115:17
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

Psalm 146:4
When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing

This guy says "he will call those already in paradise to surround me" but nobody is in paradise yet. They're all dead, in the dust of the earth.

Furthermore, 1 Corinthians 15 says "when jesus comes, then the end comes when he hands over the kingdom to God the father" which means Jesus returns at the end of his reign, not at the beginning. Yet this guy says "He would reign as KING of the Jews" at his return.

This so called vision is nothing more than imagination which is the culmination of decades of indoctrination.

Biblewriter · Jun 26, 2017

JacksBratt said:
I would agree, many people are irresponsible and even biased in handling scriptures. However, to state that all people of one view of one particular issue, that all have made predictions or believe a certain way on other issues.... is not what I would consider acceptable.

Nor would I consider that acceptable.

harrisonm7 · Sep 27, 2017

LastSeven said:
Test such things against scripture.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing

This guy says "he will call those already in paradise to surround me" but nobody is in paradise yet. They're all dead, in the dust of the earth.

This so called vision is nothing more than imagination which is the culmination of decades of indoctrination.

Soul sleep is not biblical.
2 Corinthians 5:
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

He's bringing them with him, the only way that's possible is if their souls are in Heaven right now.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

How are they saying anything if they are not in Heaven? Obviously the soul is in heaven. These are souls of people who died during the tribulation. So when you die, your soul is in Heaven.

harrisonm7 · Sep 27, 2017

JacksBratt said:
I see what you are saying. I understand that. However, how do you perceive Christ protecting these true believers from the global dragnet that will be in place to catch and kill these people.

Revelation 2:
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

We are not protected from the antichrist, we are protected from the wrath of God by the rapture, which happens after the 6th seal is opened.

So yes, many will be caught and killed for refusing the mark of the beast.

LastSeven · Sep 27, 2017

harrisonm7 said:
Soul sleep is not biblical.
2 Corinthians 5:
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

He's bringing them with him, the only way that's possible is if their souls are in Heaven right now.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

How are they saying anything if they are not in Heaven? Obviously the soul is in heaven. These are souls of people who died during the tribulation. So when you die, your soul is in Heaven.

Nobody is in heaven right now and none of your verses contradict my position. However if you want to discuss this issue, perhaps create a new thread or choose one of the existing threads on this topic and I'd be happy to discuss this with you.

BABerean2 · Sep 27, 2017

LastSeven said:
Nobody is in heaven right now and none of your verses contradict my position.

Luk_23:43　 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Act 2:32　 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.　
Act 2:33　 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.　

Mat_10:28　 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Rev_6:9　 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

All of these verses kill the doctrine of "soul sleep".

harrisonm7 · Sep 27, 2017

Also Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

LastSeven · Sep 27, 2017

BABerean2 said:
Luk_23:43　 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Act 2:32　 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.　
Act 2:33　 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.　

Mat_10:28　 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Rev_6:9　 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

All of these verses kill the doctrine of "soul sleep".

I've seen all those verses and they do not kill my position on the matter.

LastSeven · Sep 27, 2017

harrisonm7 said:
Also Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

That's correct, but "spirit" is the breath of life. It's the life that returns to God who gave it in Genesis 2:7.

harrisonm7 · Sep 27, 2017

LastSeven said:
I've seen all those verses and they do not kill my position on the matter.

Yes, they do refute your position. The bible can't contradict itself. Those clear verses say there is no soul sleep. That means your unclear verses that seem to imply it do not actually mean there is soul sleep.

Luke 16:
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

It's pretty conclusive from that, even though it's a parable, was describing how things actually are. Jesus was not making up an afterlife just for a parable.

LastSeven · Sep 27, 2017

harrisonm7 said:
Yes, they do refute your position. The bible can't contradict itself. Those clear verses say there is no soul sleep. That means your unclear verses that seem to imply it do not actually mean there is soul sleep.

Luke 16:
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

It's pretty conclusive from that, even though it's a parable, was describing how things actually are. Jesus was not making up an afterlife just for a parable.

Of course the Bible does not contradict itself, but if you want me to explain why do they do not refute my position then feel free to invite me to a more appropriate thread.

harrisonm7 · Sep 27, 2017

LastSeven said:
Of course the Bible does not contradict itself, but if you want me to explain why do they do not refute my position then feel free to invite me to a more appropriate thread.

What's wrong with right here? You started it in this thread. Obviously you have no argument, the Bible is clear on this.

BABerean2 · Sep 27, 2017

LastSeven said:
Of course the Bible does not contradict itself, but if you want me to explain why do they do not refute my position then feel free to invite me to a more appropriate thread.

If you think a human being is only made up of a body, then your doctrine falls apart when it comes to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of believers found in 1 Corinthians 3:16.

1Co 3:16　 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?　
1Co 3:17　 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.　

The New Testament is clear on this matter.

Joh 14:26　 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.　

Members of the New Covenant do not need a human teacher (Hebrews 8:11), because we have our own internal teacher, which is the Holy Spirit sent from God.

The Holy Spirit Falls on the Gentiles (subtitle from eSword)

Act 10:44　 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.　

Act 10:45　 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.　

Act 10:46　 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,　

Act 10:47　 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?　

Act 10:48　 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.　

The only way you can make your "soul sleep" doctrine work is by ignoring the verses that destroy it.

.

LastSeven · Sep 27, 2017

harrisonm7 said:
What's wrong with right here? You started it in this thread. Obviously you have no argument, the Bible is clear on this.

This thread is about "pre-trib details". Does that sound like the place to discuss what happens to us after we die?

And don't try to bait me with "obviously you have no argument". So juvenile.

BABerean2 · Sep 28, 2017

LastSeven said:
This thread is about "pre-trib details". Does that sound like the place to discuss what happens to us after we die?

And don't try to bait me with "obviously you have no argument". So juvenile.

One of those details of this thread is the concept of Christ returning with the souls of dead Christians in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4.
Therefore, your unscriptural "soul sleep" doctrine is relevant to the discussion.

1 Thessalonians 4:14

(CJB)　 do who have nothing to hope for. For since we believe that Yeshua died and rose again, we also believe that in the same way God, through Yeshua, will take with him those who have died.

(ESV)　 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

(Geneva)　 For if we beleeue that Iesus is dead, and is risen, euen so them which sleepe in Iesus, will God bring with him.

(GW)　 We believe that Jesus died and came back to life. We also believe that, through Jesus, God will bring back those who have died. They will come back with Jesus.

(LITV-TSP)　 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him all those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.

(KJV)　 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

(KJV+)　 ForG1063 ifG1487 we believeG4100 thatG3754 JesusG2424 diedG599 andG2532 rose again,G450 even soG3779 them also which sleepG2837 G2532 inG1223 JesusG2424 will GodG2316 bringG71 withG4862 him.G846

(NKJV)　 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

(YLT)　 for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also God those asleep through Jesus he will bring with him,

.

Pretribbers, which pretrib "details" have proven true?

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