New Heaven and Earth Discussion

claninja

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No, you simply are resisting the truth.
Jesus is in control of all things for his God.
Jesus is NOT literally reigning on the earth yet.

If Christ is in control of all things, how is he not reigning? Look and understand friend.

Daniel 7 tells us what the coming of the son of man is.
Daniel 7:10-11 (ylt)
I was seeing in the visions of the night, and lo, with the clouds of the heavens as a son of man was [one] coming, and unto the Ancient of Days he hath come, and before Him they have brought him near. And to him is given dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, and all peoples, nations, and languages do serve him, his dominion [is] a dominion age-during, that passeth not away, and his kingdom that which is not destroyed."


And when did the son of man come into his kingdom? During the generation of his disciples.

Matthew 16:28 (ylt) Verily I say to you, there are certain of those standing here who shall not taste of death till they may see the Son of Man coming in his reign"

Christ is reigning and people from all nations are serving him.
 
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claninja

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No.
Yes. This puts the first resurrection AFTER the scattering.
Israel was scattered to all the nations roughly 1900 years ago, and has been scattered up to today. They have just begun the recovery process, but the majority of the Jews are still scattered among the nations.
The Jews in the land of Israel only got control of Jerusalem 50 years ago, setting up the literal fulfillment of Zech 14. Jesus will not return, until the nations of the world have violently seized Jerusalem. When Jesus, (Jehovah's servant), returns, his foot will land on the Mount of Olives, (the same location from which he ascended to heaven), and that mountain will split East and West, and the halves will move North and South, creating a valley to the east of Jerusalem.
I think you know this hasn't happened yet.
The first resurrection occurs just before Jesus reaches the earth, and those made immortal meet with Jesus in the clouds.
So, the scattering is still in effect, until AFTER the resurrection.
It does not say the resurrection occurs after the scattering. It says the tribulation and the rising will last for a time, times, and time and half and that when the scattering of the power of the holy people ends, the tribulation and rising again will end.
 
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Dartman

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If Christ is in control of all things, how is he not reigning?
Because Jesus isn't on the earth, on the "throne of David". Proclaiming to the nations of the world LAW from Zion, and causing all nations to be at peace, and to know Jehovah "as the waters cover the sea. Because it isn't time yet. Christ's God is the only one who knows "the day, and the hour".
claninja said:
Daniel 7 tells us what the coming of the son of man is.
No, Daniel 7 tells us that the son of man receives the Kingdom from the Ancient of Days AFTER the son of man gets to heaven. Jesus told Mary in
John 20:17-18 .. "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"

So, we KNOW Jesus hadn't received the kingdom while he was with his apostles.
claninja said:
Daniel 7:10-11 (ylt)
I was seeing in the visions of the night, and lo, with the clouds of the heavens as a son of man was [one] coming, and unto the Ancient of Days he hath come, and before Him they have brought him near. And to him is given dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, and all peoples, nations, and languages do serve him, his dominion [is] a dominion age-during, that passeth not away, and his kingdom that which is not destroyed."
1) you skipped the destruction of the other nations described in
Dan 2:44 "In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.
2) The entire body of those even CLAIMING Christianity is about 1/3 of the "peoples, nations, and languages".. notice Dan 7 says "ALL peoples". Other texts state "the knowledge of Jehovah will cover the earth, as the waters cover the sea". At NO TIME does the Church accomplish this.
Isa 11:9-11 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea. 10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.


3)Notice, the "root of Jesse" (Jesus) is going to accomplish a SECOND recovery of the remnant of Israel ... And the lands listed are WAY more countries than the Medo-Persian return, AND it is the SECOND recovery.
Jesus hasn't started his reign from Zion ..... yet.
 
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claninja

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Because Jesus isn't on the earth, on the "throne of David". Proclaiming to the nations of the world LAW from Zion, and causing all nations to be at peace, and to know Jehovah "as the waters cover the sea. Because it isn't time yet. Christ's God is the only one who knows "the day, and the hour".

A promise was made to David that he would never lack a man on throne, and yet it was not david who ascended, but our Lord and Messiah Jesus Christ. Who is reigning in glory and power!
Acts 2:29-36
29“Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
“ ‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.” ’36“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

No, Daniel 7 tells us that the son of man receives the Kingdom from the Ancient of Days AFTER the son of man gets to heaven. Jesus told Mary in
John 20:17-18 .. "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"

So, we KNOW Jesus hadn't received the kingdom while he was with his apostles.
And we know Jesus ascended to heaven, so what's your point?

No one said he received a kingdom while he was with the disciples. You are using a straw man. Jesus said there were some standing here would not taste death before they see the son of man coming in his kingdom with power. Matthew 16:28.
 
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Dartman

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A promise was made to David that he would never lack a man on throne, and yet it was not david who ascended, but our Lord and Messiah Jesus Christ. Who is reigning in glory and power!
Acts 2:29-36
29“Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
“ ‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.” ’36“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
You are confused regarding Peter's message. Jesus isn't on the throne of David yet, like Peter said in the very next chapter:
Acts 3:19-21 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

The "times of refreshing" and the "restitution of all things" is still future. Jesus stays in heaven UNTIL his God sends him back to the earth.

claninja said:
Jesus said there were some standing here would not taste death before they see the son of man coming in his kingdom with power. Matthew 16:28.
They did, read the next 9 verses.
 
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claninja

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You are confused regarding Peter's message. Jesus isn't on the throne of David yet, like Peter said in the very next chapter:
Acts 3:19-21 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

The "times of refreshing" and the "restitution of all things" is still future. Jesus stays in heaven UNTIL his God sends him back to the earth.

What is he doing in heaven?

They did, read the next 9 verses.

So we agree, Christ came into his kingdom.
 
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Dartman

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What is he doing in heaven?
MANY things, but the most directly related to our discussion; he is waiting for his God's commandment to return to this planet.
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Acts 3:19-21 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.


claninja said:
So we agree, Christ came into his kingdom.
No, we do not agree, and you know it.
Peter preached that Jesus was going to stay in heaven ... UNTIL God sends him to start the "restitution of all things". Peter, James and John all got to see a vision of the future. Peter discussed this VISION in his later writing;
2 Peter 1:16-18 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

So, Jesus told the apostles that SOME of them would see his coming ... and some did, in the very next 9 verses... as a vision of the future.

Jesus hasn't returned to this planet yet, but it could be any day now.
 
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claninja

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MANY things, but the most directly related to our discussion; he is waiting for his God's commandment to return to this planet.
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Acts 3:19-21 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

At least we can agree that Christ ascended to heaven. The difference we have is what Christ is doing in heaven. You said MANY things but that is kind of generic. Thank you for elaborating on the waiting, but could you explain the MANY other things he is doing?

I would say He is reigning and has all authority over the heavens and the earth.

Hebrews 10:12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God
1 Peter 3:22
who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.
Acts 2:35
‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, till I make thy enemies a stool for thy feet.’
1 corinthians 15:25
For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

We also know that God reigns over the world and all kingdoms from heaven
Psalm 103:19
The Lord has established his throne in the heavens, and his kingdom rules over all.

No, we do not agree, and you know it.
Peter preached that Jesus was going to stay in heaven ... UNTIL God sends him to start the "restitution of all things". Peter, James and John all got to see a vision of the future. Peter discussed this VISION in his later writing;
2 Peter 1:16-18 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

So, Jesus told the apostles that SOME of them would see his coming ... and some did, in the very next 9 verses... as a vision of the future.

Jesus hasn't returned to this planet yet, but it could be any day now

So they really didn't see the son of man coming into his kingdom, just a vision of what it would look like?
 
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Dartman

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At least we can agree that Christ ascended to heaven. The difference we have is what Christ is doing in heaven. You said MANY things but that is kind of generic. Thank you for elaborating on the waiting, but could you explain the MANY other things he is doing?

I would say He is reigning and has all authority over the heavens and the earth.

Hebrews 10:12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God
1 Peter 3:22
who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.
Acts 2:35
‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, till I make thy enemies a stool for thy feet.’
Exactly. As I said, Jesus was given all authority and all power by his God. Jesus is sitting at his God's right hand, and is in control of things, for his God.
claninja said:
1 corinthians 15:25
For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
This statement is made about the end, AFTER Jesus has returned ...
1 Cor 15:23-28 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till He hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For He hath put all things under his feet. But when He saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

claninja said:
We also know that God reigns over the world and all kingdoms from heaven
Psalm 103:19
The Lord has established his throne in the heavens, and his kingdom rules over all.
But God is not reigning ON the earth, God has given Jesus authority OVER the earth now, from heaven. But Jesus made it VERY clear, there will come a time when he will return TO the earth, and reign from the throne of his father David, the throne of his glory;
Matt 19:28-29 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
This is a FUTURE event/condition.
This has not happened ... yet.
claninja said:
So they really didn't see the son of man coming into his kingdom, just a vision of what it would look like?
Your question is contradictory. Yes they really saw it, in a vision. It has not happened yet.
 
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claninja

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Exactly. As I said, Jesus was given all authority and all power by his God. Jesus is sitting at his God's right hand, and is in control of things, for his God.
This statement is made about the end, AFTER Jesus has returned ...
1 Cor 15:23-28 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till He hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For He hath put all things under his feet. But when He saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Acts 2:34-35
For David did not ascend into the heavens; but he himself says,
‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand,
35 till I make thy enemies a stool for thy feet.’


1 Corinthians 15:25
For he must reign, till He hath put all enemies under his feet.

Your above statement is contradictory. You agreed with Acts 2:34-35 that Christ is in heaven, until his enemies are made a foot stool, but then you said that 1 Corinthians 15:25 is in the future, and He will be on earth, reigning, until his enemies are put under his feet.

So which is it, is Christ in heaven or on earth until his enemies are beneath his feet?

But God is not reigning ON the earth, God has given Jesus authority OVER the earth now, from heaven. But Jesus made it VERY clear, there will come a time when he will return TO the earth, and reign from the throne of his father David, the throne of his glory;
Matt 19:28-29 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
This is a FUTURE event/condition.
This has not happened ... yet.

Where in this verse does it say the throne is on earth?

Your question is contradictory. Yes they really saw it, in a vision. It has not happened yet.

The disciples saw Christ glowing and talking to Moses and Elijah, and heard the father say "this is my beloved son". Peter describes that he saw Jesus receive honor and glory from God and he heard a voice say "this is my beloved son, with whom I am well pleased".

You are saying this vision, the disciples saw, is about the future and that it has not happened yet?
 
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Dartman

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Acts 2:34-35
For David did not ascend into the heavens; but he himself says,
‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand,
35 till I make thy enemies a stool for thy feet.’


1 Corinthians 15:25
For he must reign, till He hath put all enemies under his feet.

Your above statement is contradictory. You agreed with Acts 2:34-35 that Christ is in heaven, until his enemies are made a foot stool, but then you said that 1 Corinthians 15:25 is in the future, and He will be on earth, reigning, until his enemies are put under his feet.

So which is it, is Christ in heaven or on earth until his enemies are beneath his feet?
You are again trying to manipulate the answer. You are ignoring the Scriptures. Jesus WILL reign until his enemies are put under his feet. Jesus IS in the heavens, and has all authority, and all power ... but he has NOT started his LITERAL reign ON THE EARTH .. yet!
The LITERAL reign on the earth is discussed in MANY passages, and is specifically explained as 1,000 years in Rev 20. WITH the immortal saints as kings and priests with him.
The LITERAL return of Jesus to this earth is discussed in MANY passages.
claninja said:
Dartman said:
But God is not reigning ON the earth, God has given Jesus authority OVER the earth now, from heaven. But Jesus made it VERY clear, there will come a time when he will return TO the earth, and reign from the throne of his father David, the throne of his glory;
Matt 19:28-29 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
This is a FUTURE event/condition.
This has not happened ... yet.
Where in this verse does it say the throne is on earth?
This question is a transparent attempt to distract.
I didn't CLAIM this verse says the throne is on the earth, there are SEVERAL that state "on the earth".
You don't get to artificially limit the conversation to ONE VERSE!
The passage discusses MULTIPLE THRONES, and the passage discusses all 12 tribes!
The 10 tribes have not been recover today, as we speak, but are still scattered to the nations.
The apostles are not reigning on 12 thrones over the 12 tribes yet.
The "regeneration" hasn't happened yet!
This text PROVES Christ's reign "in the throne of his glory" is future!
MANY other texts prove that reign is "ON THE EARTH".
claninja said:
The disciples saw Christ glowing and talking to Moses and Elijah, and heard the father say "this is my beloved son". Peter describes that he saw Jesus receive honor and glory from God and he heard a voice say "this is my beloved son, with whom I am well pleased".
You left out a significant point.
Peter stated;
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
They SAW a vision of Jesus AFTER his 2nd coming!
claninja said:
You are saying this vision, the disciples saw, is about the future and that it has not happened yet?
Exactly.
 
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claninja

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You are again trying to manipulate the answer.
No, just calling you out on your inconsistencies. To which you attempt to sidestep the question.
So I will repeat it for you: You agreed with Acts 2:34-35 that Christ is in heaven, until his enemies are made a foot stool, but then you said that 1 Corinthians 15:25 is in the future, and He will be on earth, reigning, until his enemies are put under his feet.

So which is it, is Christ in heaven or on earth until his enemies are beneath his feet?

This is not manipulation, but seriously trying to figure out the logic of your claim.

I didn't CLAIM this verse says the throne is on the earth, there are SEVERAL that state "on the earth".

Then why did you quote it to show Jesus will reign on earth in the future?

You don't get to artificially limit the conversation to ONE VERSE!
Well, first you make the argument that Christ's will reign from his throne on earth in the future, then post Matthew 19:28-29 which doesn't mention Christ reigning on his throne from earth. So technically you limited it.

The "regeneration" hasn't happened yet!

Titus 3:5
he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration (παλινγενεσίας) and renewal in the Holy Spirit,

παλινγενεσίας (regeneration) is found only twice: Matthew 19:28 and Titus 3:5

Apparently, regeneration has happened to some people .

MANY other texts prove that reign is "ON THE EARTH".
Then quote those instead of ones that do not show Christ sitting on the throne ON EARTH

You left out a significant point.
Peter stated;
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
They SAW a vision of Jesus AFTER his 2nd coming!

So if this vision is about the 2nd coming, than Jesus will not receive honor and glory till he comes back?
 
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parousia70

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I never said ANYONE "has Power and Authority ABOVE Jesus" ..... except his God.

Well, If your claim is true that Jesus is not presently Reigning on earth, then that means someone else has authority on earth today that SUPERSEDES that of Christ on earth today.

Who do you say that is?
 
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Dartman

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No, just calling you out on your inconsistencies. To which you attempt to sidestep the question.
No, you are either missing the points, or you are intentionally ignoring my responses, and reply to what you WISH I had said.
Here is an example;
claninja said:
So I will repeat it for you: You agreed with Acts 2:34-35 that Christ is in heaven, until his enemies are made a foot stool,
NO!
What I SAID is;
Jesus WILL
reign until his enemies are put under his feet. Jesus IS in the heavens, and has all authority, and all power ... but he has NOT started his LITERAL reign ON THE EARTH .. yet!
Your MISquote is inaccurate. Is this on purpose, or do you just not get it?
claninja said:
.. but then you said that 1 Corinthians 15:25 is in the future, and He will be on earth, reigning, until his enemies are put under his feet.
Yep.

claninja said:
So which is it, is Christ in heaven or on earth until his enemies are beneath his feet?

This is not manipulation, but seriously trying to figure out the logic of your claim.
Of course it's manipulation!! You keep trying to limit the options to YOUR misconceptions!!
The answer is, Jesus stays in heaven UNTIL his God sends him back to the earth, Jesus THEN reigns ON the earth for 1,000 years, quells the rebellion following Satan being loosed, raises the "rest of the dead" back to life, judges them for his God, destroys the wicked, and gives immortality to the righteous, thus ending/destroying death for ever. THAT is when the "last enemy" is destroyed.
claninja said:
Then why did you quote it to show Jesus will reign on earth in the future?
I quoted Matt 19 to prove that the conditions have NEVER been met ..... yet. Your theory is error.

claninja said:
Titus 3:5
he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration (παλινγενεσίας) and renewal in the Holy Spirit,

παλινγενεσίας (regeneration) is found only twice: Matthew 19:28 and Titus 3:5

Apparently, regeneration has happened to some people .
Yep... but NOT the regeneration Jesus was discussing in Matt 19. THAT regeneration is what Peter is discussing in Acts 3:19-21
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. 20 And He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

Notice, Peter is talking about a FUTURE event...... while acknowledging that Jesus Christ IS in heaven!
AND, Peter makes it clear, God WILL SEND Jesus FROM heaven!

claninja said:
Then quote those instead of ones that do not show Christ sitting on the throne ON EARTH
Sure!
Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
SO, we can see from these texts, the 2nd coming of Jesus coincides with the 1st resurrection, and with the proclamation "the kingdoms of this world ARE BECOME, the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ".
These 3 events are heralded by the 7th/last trump of God. And that the righteous and Jesus reign "ON THE EARTH".

claninja said:
So if this vision is about the 2nd coming, than Jesus will not receive honor and glory till he comes back?
Read the text again, and see WHEN Jesus received the honor and glory. And then, read all the Scriptures that discuss glory, and honor for Jesus. You will find there are MANY times Jesus received honor and glory .... it's not limited to one event.
 
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Dartman

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Dartman said:
I never said ANYONE "has Power and Authority ABOVE Jesus" ..... except his God.
Well, If your claim is true that Jesus is not presently Reigning on earth, then that means someone else has authority on earth today that SUPERSEDES that of Christ on earth today.
Nope.
It means Jesus is long suffering with the decline of this world, in perfect obedience to his God's plans.
Who was ruling over the holocaust?
Who was ruling over the tribal conflicts in Africa, that caused such suffering?
Who was ruling over ALL the violence and bloodshed the apostate church has perpetrated for the last 1,700 years?
Why has Jesus allowed this, and all other kinds of injustice?
Why will Satan be bound for 1,000 years?
Who was Paul talking about when he said.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
 
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Nope.
It means Jesus is long suffering with the decline of this world, in perfect obedience to his God's plans.
Who was ruling over the holocaust?
Who was ruling over the tribal conflicts in Africa, that caused such suffering?
Who was ruling over ALL the violence and bloodshed the apostate church has perpetrated for the last 1,700 years?
Why has Jesus allowed this, and all other kinds of injustice?

Who was ruling when Polio was Cured?
Who was ruling when Penicillin was invented/discovered?
Who was ruling at the institution of constitutionalism, the jury system, free enterprise, literacy, increasing productivity, a rising standard of living, the high status of women?

The globe is infinitely better off than it was 2000 years ago. Because of Christianity, the knowledge of God is no longer geographically and tribally restricted. Christianity takes the covenant and extends it everywhere. And, everywhere Christianity is accepted, paganism is defeated. The world, because of the powers of the Cross and Christ's rulership, has become improved and will continue to become improved according to God's sovereign determination.

Christianity is very young. When compared to those advances made under the Mosaic system, the true Christian faith has established its unstoppable supremacy by every metric. Christ's Kingdom has spread like a virus all over the world in 20 centuries. In 20 more centuries, the entire globe will consist of mostly Christianized nations. From there, as the covenant laws continue to find greater application and integration, those countries will achieve a sanctification on par with the greatest of saints. Nothing can stop this progress, for the powers of the Cross and Christ's Church are without equal.

All of this is attributable to one major fact: the West has been transformed by Christianity.

Satan was bound/judged/cast out by Christ's ministry, reversing satan's dominion over the People of God, granting power over all darkness to the saints, and immediately enabling the gospel to spread to all nations.
(John 12:31 and Matt 12:28-29, Heb 2:14-15 and 1 John 3:8).

Jesus Christ is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords yesterday, today, and evermore. ALL power and dominion are His. There is nothing that is not already under his rule.

Christ is "above all rule and authority and power and dominion" (Eph 1:19-20); all authorities and powers are subjected to Him (1 Pet 3:22); through His death he destroyed the devil who had the power of death (Heb 2:14); and He is "the ruler of the kings of the earth" (Rev 1:5-6). The very purpose that Christ was manifested in the flesh was to destroy the works of the devil (1 Jn 3:8).

Jesus Christ, not satan, is God and King over this world (over all of heaven and earth):

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Ephesians 1:19-23
He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

1 Peter 3:22
Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Revelation 1:5-6
Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood--and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father--to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever.


Satan was cast out, judged, spoiled and bound by Jesus Christ back in the first century:

John 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

1 John 3:8
For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Hebrews 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same;
that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil.

Colossians 2:15
And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Matthew 12:28-29
If I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you...how can anyone enter the strong man's house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. (Jesus here claims to have bound satan and plundered his house)

2 Timothy 1:10
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath
brought life and immortality to light through the gospel

John 16:8,11
And when [the Holy Spirit] is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of
judgment:...of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged

Acts 26:17-18
To the nations I now send you to open their eyes to turn them from darkness to light and from the power of satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and inheritance among them who are sanctified by faith that is in me.


Who shall bring a charge against God's elect?

Romans 8:31-34
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

1 John 5:18
he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
 
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Dartman said:
Nope.
It means Jesus is long suffering with the decline of this world, in perfect obedience to his God's plans.
Who was ruling over the holocaust?
Who was ruling over the tribal conflicts in Africa, that caused such suffering?
Who was ruling over ALL the violence and bloodshed the apostate church has perpetrated for the last 1,700 years?
Why has Jesus allowed this, and all other kinds of injustice?
Who was ruling when Polio was Cured?
Who was ruling when Penicillin was invented/discovered?
Who was ruling at the institution of constitutionalism, the jury system, free enterprise, literacy, increasing productivity, a rising standard of living, the high status of women?
Really?
You are seeing man's pathetic scientific "progress" as somehow TRUMPING the evil and injustice???
Sorry, I am TOTALLY not persuaded by this.
God's CURE for disease will be instant, and complete... when HE decides to revoke the curse HE placed on this planet, it will be 100% of all diseases.
The examples you have provided are merely a tiny improvement. People are still mortal. This life isn't the point.

parosia70 said:
The globe is infinitely better off than it was 2000 years ago.
Hogwash.
The instant sin available on the internet, the ability to find sinful hotspots globaly, the steady decline in Godliness within those claiming Christianity, the promiscuity, the horrific state of marriage, the greed, sloth and dishonesty, the rampant growth of atheism ... ALL fulfill Jesus' words: "as it was in the days of Noah".
Parosia70 said:
Because of Christianity, the knowledge of God is no longer geographically and tribally restricted. Christianity takes the covenant and extends it everywhere. And, everywhere Christianity is accepted, paganism is defeated. The world, because of the powers of the Cross and Christ's rulership, has become improved and will continue to become improved according to God's sovereign determination.
The religiously unaffiliated, called "nones," are growing significantly. They’re the second largest religious group in North America and most of Europe. In the United States, nones make up almost a quarter of the population. In the past decade, U.S. nones have overtaken Catholics, mainline protestants, and all followers of non-Christian faiths.
The World's Newest Major Religion: No Religion
parosia70 said:
Jesus Christ is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords yesterday, today, and evermore. ALL power and dominion are His. There is nothing that is not already under his rule.
Except his God.
The point you seem to be missing is, having authority over all things, doesn't mean Jesus is thwarting man's free will. Nor does it mean Satan is bound .... yet.

Satan is STILL walking to and fro in the earth, seeking whom he can devour.
Satan is STILL this worlds "god".
Jesus hasn't returned to conquer EVERY nation, and set up his own kingdom on this planet .... yet.
 
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parousia70

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Really?
You are seeing man's pathetic scientific "progress" as somehow TRUMPING the evil and injustice???
Sorry, I am TOTALLY not persuaded by this.

You're the one that brought up the death rate as an indicator of the decline of the world… Claiming that human beings responsible for the slaughter is evidence that humanity is getting worse, yet when I respond with the FACT that human beings in the medical and scientific community are responsible for saving the lives of an exponential number of people beyond those who've been slaughtered at the hands of tyrants, you brush it off as meaningless?

What sort of Hubris is that?

God's CURE for disease will be instant, and complete... when HE decides to revoke the curse HE placed on this planet, it will be 100% of all diseases.

Then why are the nations in need of perpetual healing in the new heavens and earth period? What are the leaves of the tree of life there for if not for what scripture claims "the healing of the nations"?
Your claim is that they have already been "instantly healed", so why the scriptural claim they need continued healing in perpetuity?

What gives?

The examples you have provided are merely a tiny improvement.

Hey! We've gone from no improvement, to tiny improvement! We are making progress you and I!

People are still mortal.

"He who believes in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

I do. Do you?

The religiously unaffiliated, called "nones," are growing significantly. They’re the second largest religious group in North America and most of Europe. In the United States, nones make up almost a quarter of the population. In the past decade, U.S. nones have overtaken Catholics, mainline protestants, and all followers of non-Christian faiths.
The World's Newest Major Religion: No Religion

You seem to be stuck in your view predicated on your lifespan and what you've witnessed… I take a much longer view of redemptive history, and the arc of righteousness is unquestionably on the rise in all creation.

A are there ebs and flows? Of course...
The debauchery and sexual immortality practiced by the ancient Romans and the Greeks alone makes what goes on today look like a pattycake session.

The point you seem to be missing is, having authority over all things, doesn't mean Jesus is thwarting man's free will.

Rather, it seems like you're missing that very point. Just because Jesus is not thwarting man's free will does not mean that the church he built and promised would never fail in reconciling the world, will ultimately fail in that God ordained mission as you seem to be Claiming.

Nor does it mean Satan is bound .... yet.

Scripture is clear that Satan was bound judged and cast out by Christ's earthly ministry 2000 years ago, granting all power and dominion to the Church. I've posted plenty of those scriptures already... if you need a refresher, let me know.
 
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You're the one that brought up the death rate as an indicator of the decline of the world… Claiming that human beings responsible for the slaughter is evidence that humanity is getting worse, yet when I respond with the FACT that human beings in the medical and scientific community are responsible for saving the lives of an exponential number of people beyond those who've been slaughtered at the hands of tyrants, you brush it off as meaningless?
They are not saving lives, they are merely postponing death.
The only name, given among men, by which lives are truly saved is "Jesus of Nazareth"!
ONLY faith and works count on judgment day .... not whether you had a polio vaccination.
You have fallen prey to yet another of Satan's beguiling ploys, equating the increase of man's knowledge with righteousness... which is merely another error.
parousia70 said:
Then why are the nations in need of perpetual healing in the new heavens and earth period?
Yet ANOTHER passage you misunderstand! The leaves of the tree of life are for the healing of the nations during Christ's 1,000 year reign!! When Christ builds the temple in THIS Jerusalem (the one we hear about in the news daily), not the holy city NEW Jerusalem (Eze 47).
There is a stream which flows out from under the alter in the temple;
Ezek 47:12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

More than 1,000 years later, that same species of tree will be IN the holy city New Jerusalem, and John calls attention to it's PREVIOUS use;
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations... PAST TENSE!!! The leaves WERE for the healing of the nations... but during the New Heavens and New Earth there IS NO MORE SICKNESS;

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and His servants shall serve Him:


parousia70 said:
"He who believes in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

I do. Do you?
Context is SOOOOOOO important, and, so is considering ALL Scripture before jumping to assumptions!
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Jesus is NOT contradicting the VAST quantities of Scripture that teach death is sleep ..... in fact, in this VERY context, Jesus had already stated explicitly,
John 11:11-14 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.


According to Jesus, dead = asleep... resurrection = awake out of sleep.
Notice, Jesus called Lazarus, and he came FORTH ... not up ... or down. Lazarus .... ALL of Lazarus (except his breath) ... was in that tomb... and then came back to life.

Do you believe Jesus?
I do.
parousia70 said:
You seem to be stuck in your view predicated on your lifespan and what you've witnessed… I take a much longer view of redemptive history, and the arc of righteousness is unquestionably on the rise in all creation.
Fornication of ALL types is epidemic. From adulterous divorce & remarriage to premarital sex, to homosexual behavior of all types, this civilization is the Titanic.... it's not a question of IF it will sink, it's merely a question of when. Jesus was right,
Luke 18:7-8 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? 8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Jesus answers his own question;
Luke 17:26-27 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Jesus doesn't think mankind is getting better!

parousia70 said:
Scripture is clear that Satan was bound judged and cast out by Christ's earthly ministry 2000 years ago. I've posted plenty of those scriptures already... if you need a refresher, let me know.
You did demonstrate your consistent knack for misunderstanding perfectly good texts... but you certainly didn't prove your point.
Yes, Jesus' mighty works, and flawless message, and perfect obedience to his God DID signal Satan's failure!
But sealing Satan's fate is not the same thing as finally destroying Satan all together.

I'm beginning to wonder if you have EVER actually read the last 4 chapters of Revelation?!?

You know, Jesus destroying the kings of the earth, in chapter 19, in BLOODY battle.
Satan being bound and Jesus and the Saints LITERALLY reigning ON the earth for 1,000 years.
Satan being loosed, to deceive those mortal nations yet one more time!
Jesus judging and destroying ALL the wicked, Satan, the grave/hell, and death.
Then Jehovah/YHVH God Himself, renewing both the heavens and the earth (I make all things new), sending the holy city "down from God, out of heaven".. and THEN God Himself leaving heaven, and coming to dwell with all of His righteous, immortal, sons and daughters (2 Cor 6:17,18)...
Does ANY of this sound familiar??
 
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parousia70

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They are not saving lives, they are merely postponing death.

So there is no spiritual or moral righteousness in providing life extending medical attention to a premature baby?
We should just let them die since we are only postponing their death by 70+ years?
Really?

The only name, given among men, by which lives are truly saved is "Jesus of Nazareth"!
Amen.

ONLY faith and works count on judgment day .... not whether you had a polio vaccination.

But if your polio vaccination enabled you to live long enough to respond to the Gospel when you otherwise wouldn't have....

Never mind.. such is apparently lost on you.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes;

We won't even get to cry tears of Joy?
Bummer.
Sounds kind of like a Prozac type existence the way you paint it.

Fornication of ALL types is epidemic. From adulterous divorce & remarriage to premarital sex, to homosexual behavior of all types, this civilization is the Titanic.... it's not a question of IF it will sink, it's merely a question of when.

Indeed. Even the damning abomination of engaging in oral sex with your wedded spouse of the opposite gender. It's epidemic indeed.

Good thing you and I never did that with our spouses. Such blatant disregard for God's commands I fear would be unrecoverable.

Yes, Jesus' mighty works, and flawless message, and perfect obedience to his God DID signal Satan's failure!
But sealing Satan's fate is not the same thing as finally destroying Satan all together.

Wait... you are an annhilationist?

You do not believe Satan is punished consciously for eternity in the Lake of Fire?

Rather He is extinguished from existence all together?

This might be for another thread, but I find that fascinating.
 
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