Is atheism Plain Rash? An argument Presented.

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jayem

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The tree as contingent exists ultimately because of the necessary being which causes the being of the tree. The necessary being is being, which is God.

If I understand you, then your argument is a variation of Spinoza's idea that God is the "substance" of the universe. Which Spinoza meant in the very literal sense of the word that God is what stands beneath all existence. You seem to be saying much the same--that God is existence. Spinoza was thought to be pantheistic. Are you in this same territory?

Actually, I might agree with this pantheistic view to a degree. As a naturalist, I believe that all existence is purely a function of matter/energy (which are interchangeable) and the fundamental forces of nature. I believe these have always existed in the same way you believe a supernatural entity has. You can call it God. I call it nature. But I reject the idea that there is any intelligent, omnipotent, creative entity outside or beyond the natural realm, that in any way interacts with or influences events therein.
 
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JohnMartin

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Ah there we have it. Your postulated being must exist and your entire argument rests on that hidden postulate.

No you cannot say God has to exist to prove it does exist.

Trees on the other hand do exist and they can be pointed to, rested under and climbed in.

The tree does exist, but does not account for its own existence. The tree is then a thing which is dependent upon another. That other is the cause of the tree's being. The prime cause of being is being, which is God.

JM
 
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bhsmte

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The tree does exist, but does not account for its own existence. The tree is then a thing which is dependent upon another. That other is the cause of the tree's being. The prime cause of being is being, which is God.

JM

Demonstrate this.
 
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JohnMartin

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Demonstrate this.
The tree has an essence of tree-ness and has being. The being of the tree is the act to be. Being is the fundamental perfection of the tree, for any act of the tree is dependent upon the trees act to be. Therefore, the tree cannot cause its own being. The being of the tree (and any other contingent thing) is then caused by a cause other than the tree. As being is the fundamental perfection, then only being can cause being. The being which causes the being of the tree, is the prime being, as the universal cause of all being. The prime being is termed, God.

The same argument applies to any contingent thing that exists, and thereby has being. A contingent thing is caused by the prime being, God.

JM
 
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bhsmte

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The tree has an essence of tree-ness and has being. The being of the tree is the act to be. Being is the fundamental perfection of the tree, for any act of the tree is dependent upon the trees act to be. Therefore, the tree cannot cause its own being. The being of the tree (and any other contingent thing) is then caused by a cause other than the tree. As being is the fundamental perfection, then only being can cause being. The being which causes the being of the tree, is the prime being, as the universal cause of all being. The prime being is termed, God.

The same argument applies to any contingent thing that exists, and thereby has being. A contingent thing is caused by the prime being, God.

JM

You have not demonstrated a God is necessary for anything.
 
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Gene2memE

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The tree has an essence of tree-ness and has being.

Thing in reality have existence, not being.

Also, Platonic ideals and the Theory of Forms. Yay! Or, more accurately, yawn!

The being of the tree is the act to be.

The existence of the tree is the tree existing. And circular logic works because circular logic works.

I love tautologies.

Being is the fundamental perfection of the tree, for any act of the tree is dependent upon the trees act to be.

Assertion without demonstration. Please demonstrate that fundamental perfections exist and that things in reality are dependent on them.

A contingent thing is caused by the prime being, God.

You're essentially defining what you want into existence, by claiming its non-contingency. You've failed to demonstrate this though.
 
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Ana the Ist

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The tree as contingent exists ultimately because of the necessary being which causes the being of the tree. The necessary being is being, which is God.

JM

As others have pointed out now...it looks like you're trying to define god into existence. Your claim (that god needs to be necessary for other things to exist) isn't something that you can actually prove, demonstrate, or otherwise provide evidence for.

That's where your argument falls apart.
 
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jayem

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As others have pointed out now...it looks like you're trying to define god into existence. Your claim (that god needs to be necessary for other things to exist) isn't something that you can actually prove, demonstrate, or otherwise provide evidence for.

That's where your argument falls apart.

Of course. Not to mention, it violates Occam's Razor. His argument introduces an undemonstrable supernatural entity as a solution to a dubious problem it fabricated. If anything is intellectually rash, this qualifies.
 
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AirPo

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Atheism concludes that God does not exist.
First premise not true.
To attain to the conclusion, atheism must first ask the question, ‘does God exist?’
Second premise not true.


. By asking this question concerning the existence of God, the atheist must reduce God down to the level of a creature.
Third premise not true

An example will show why the reduction of God down to a creature is required.

(Skip example)

Hence atheism is rash, as shown in the argument presented above.

JM
Since none of the premise is true, the argument fails.
 
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Atheism concludes that God does not exist. To attain to the conclusion, atheism must first ask the question, ‘does God exist?’. By asking this question concerning the existence of God, the atheist must reduce God down to the level of a creature. An example will show why the reduction of God down to a creature is required.

Let us ask the question as follows - does a tree exist? By asking this question, we have reduced the existence of the tree down to a contingent thing, which may or may not exist. In doing so, we have also then reduced the existence, or the very being of the tree to being had by participation. By reducing the being of the tree to being had by participation we are then saying that – if the tree exists, the tree has existence. Or stated in another way, if the tree exists, the tree has being.

So again, for the atheist to ask the question, does God exist?, the being of God is consequently assumed to be like that of the tree, (or any other creature), as being which is had by participation. Put more simply, the question, does God exist?, infers God either has or has not being. If God does exist, then God has being, like a creature has being. If so, then the atheist must firstly assume that if God exists, then God is only a contingent thing, just as all creatures are contingent things. Once the contingency of God is assumed by the atheist, then the atheist may then proceed to produce an argument to then conclude to God does not exist.

The parallel examples of asking the two similar questions -

1) Does the tree exist?

2) Does God exist?

Both imply the tree and God may or may not exist, and thereby both the tree and God must be firstly considered to be contingent creatures.

So, what is the problem that makes atheism so rash? The question, ‘does God exist?’, when understood as shown above must ignore what God is – being itself. For God, which is the nature of being, is itself existence, is that only thing which must exist. So the question, does God exist, may be reformulated as follows –

Does that thing which is being [God], exist?

Or in another way,

Does that thing which must be [God], exist?

Or in another way,

Does that which is existence, [God], exist?

Or finally,

Does that which is being [God], be?

In short, when the question concerning the existence of God is correctly understood, the question is reducible to the principle of identity. For example, we may compare the question, does God exist, to that of the colour blue.

Does God exist?

Is equivalent to saying,

Does that which is existence, [God], exist?

Or more simply.

Does be, be?

Now we can compare the above question to that of the colour blue.

Is blue [be], blue[be]?

Or more simply,

Is be, be?

According to the atheist, the answer to the question, ‘Is blue, blue?’, is yes, in accord with the principle of identity. But when a parallel question, which is reducible down to the same principle of identity is asked, the atheist must conclude to the answer of, no. So, in summary,

Does God exist?

Which is the same as asking,

Does be, be?

Theism says yes.
Atheism say no.

Hence atheism is rash, as shown in the argument presented above.

JM

That is a while lot of words to simply assert that God exists.
 
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Cearbhall

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Atheism concludes that God does not exist.
I'm glad you said conclusion. Too many people think that all atheists say this as a strict assertion.
To attain to the conclusion, atheism must first ask the question, ‘does God exist?’.
Well, "gods."
By asking this question concerning the existence of God, the atheist must reduce God down to the level of a creature.
Not really. I reduce it down to what humans have decided "gods" means. There are countless definitions and understandings, of course, but rather than starting with a god, I work in the other direction, usually. What I try to do is find gaps in current human knowledge that could indicate the existence of a higher power or being.

For example, we understand how the sun rises and sets now, so there's no reason to think a god controls that. I conclude that civilizations came up with a sun god just to explain that.
 
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gudz23

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Atheism concludes that God does not exist.
False, but it's pretty clear by now that you are not interested in the factual reasons why, so I won't waste my virtual ink.

By asking this question concerning the existence of God, the atheist must reduce God down to the level of a creature.
The Bible manages that all on its own, much better than any atheist could.

For God, which is the nature of being, is itself existence, is that only thing which must exist.
You have yet to demonstrate that this is the nature of God.

Paraphrase:
Does God exist? = Does that which is existence, [God], exist? = Does be, be?

You have failed to show that God is existence. If it was that self-evident, the question would not have been asked for eons.

When the question concerning the existence of God is correctly understood, the question is reducible to the principle of identity.
Meaning what exactly? That the only possible understanding you are willing to process, is that God is existence, therefor God = existence = God = existence ad infinitum. Talk about broken record...


But when a parallel question, which is reducible down to the same principle of identity is asked...
Nevermind that you haven't still actually shown that it is...

Does God exist?
Who cares by this point?

Does be, be?
Presumably... But, where was I? Oh yes, moving on... Oh no, it seems we're done...
 
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