But the one I loved died an atheist...

mindlight

See in the dark
Supporter
Dec 20, 2003
13,596
2,659
London, UK
✟816,690.00
Country
Germany
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It´s one thing to sell your opinions as truth, and another to sell them as good news. Especially when the evidence for the first is weak and the news aren´t actually that good, trying both at the same time is a pretty hard task.

If you believe that then you have no inkling at what hell is like. It IS good news if a person does not have to go there.
 
Upvote 0

bhsmte

Newbie
Apr 26, 2013
52,761
11,796
✟247,431.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
truth has never been about a majority vote or were Galileo and Copernicus wrong for instance?

Never said it was, just pointing out personal faith beliefs are widely varied, because they are based on personal perceptions and less objective evidence.
 
Upvote 0

bhsmte

Newbie
Apr 26, 2013
52,761
11,796
✟247,431.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
No because on examination none of those witnesses are credible ones and they stand alone. Jesus has a supernatural footprint witnessed directly by the 500 who saw Him risen, by the hundreds of thousands who saw him perform miracles and by the billions who know him today.

You determine what witnesses are credible?
 
  • Like
Reactions: tyke
Upvote 0

bhsmte

Newbie
Apr 26, 2013
52,761
11,796
✟247,431.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
If you believe that then you have no inkling at what hell is like. It IS good news if a person does not have to go there.

What hell? Demonstrate this hell exists and then we can go from there.
 
Upvote 0

quatona

"God"? What do you mean??
May 15, 2005
37,512
4,301
✟175,292.00
Faith
Seeker
If you believe that then you have no inkling at what hell is like. It IS good news if a person does not have to go there.
Compared to "such a place doesn´t exist at all", it´s not much of an improvement, is it?
Apologetic/theological advertising isn´t very powerful when it just solves the problems that it has created itself and that don´t/wouldn´t exist without it.
 
Upvote 0

mindlight

See in the dark
Supporter
Dec 20, 2003
13,596
2,659
London, UK
✟816,690.00
Country
Germany
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
...even though you and I both agree that Jesus is our Risen Lord, I don't really agree that the "evidence is clear." If it were, people would be lining up in droves to get into the Kingdom. The reality is that even in the Bible itself, we are given indication that God has purposely presented prophetic images in epistemologically obscure ways. In fact, people--even the Israelite/Jewish people--haven't been necessarily privy to understanding all that God has had planned.

So, when we speak about the 'truth' of the Gospel of Christ with non-believers, we need to keep the above in mind. Too often, I see many fellow Christians who present the Gospel as an obvious option when it really isn't.

Furthermore, and in direct relation to the OP, we see Jesus indicating that relationships with loved ones, even those who are dying or who have died, can stand in the way of one's decision to accept Christ. In fact, I have a mother-in-law who is not a Christian, and because her relationship with her own dearly departed mother was so strong, she really can't find it in herself to just 'skip on over' to the Christian faith because she knows that to do so would be to have to accept the strong likelihood that her mother won't also be present with her in eternity. So, she basically rejects the proposition that Jesus is the "only way," and she does this for what seems to be the very reasons implied by Jesus.

With all of this in mind, it would probably be wise for us to be circumspect in how we present the Gospel of Christ since not only are portions of it obscure, but it is very psychologically challenging to many people all by itself, and this is without our additional aims to make it even more socially pressurized.

Peace, :cool:
2PhiloVoid

Personally the evidence seems overwhelming to the point that it would seem dishonest to deny it.

As for us, we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard. Acts 4:20

However I do agree that Jesus Himself tended to hide the truth from those who were not being saved. His use of parables for instance.

My own mother-in law was an atheist who committed suicide. I do not know if God found some way to save her in her last seconds but it looks unlikely given what I do know. The consequences of such gospel rejection seem extreme to me. She had a life time of opportunities to find the truth and missed them all. It seems she thought that she could end her troubles by ending her life but more likely they are really now just beginning. This is not a game with words and it is even more important than even decisions about life and death.

The gospel can be presented gently and respectfully but so also it is a clear choice. Jesus did not urge his disciples to tiptoe around godless egos idolising toxic connections.

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn "'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. a man's enemies will be the members of his own household. Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it." Matthew 10:34-39


 
  • Like
Reactions: 2PhiloVoid
Upvote 0

bhsmte

Newbie
Apr 26, 2013
52,761
11,796
✟247,431.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Personally the evidence seems overwhelming to the point that it would seem dishonest to deny it.

As for us, we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard. Acts 4:20

However I do agree that Jesus Himself tended to hide the truth from those who were not being saved. His use of parables for instance.

My own mother-in law was an atheist who committed suicide. I do not know if God found some way to save her in her last seconds but it looks unlikely given what I do know. The consequences of such gospel rejection seem extreme to me. She had a life time of opportunities to find the truth and missed them all. It seems she thought that she could end her troubles by ending her life but more likely they are really now just beginning. This is not a game with words and it is even more important than even decisions about life and death.

The gospel can be presented gently and respectfully but so also it is a clear choice. Jesus did not urge his disciples to tiptoe around godless egos idolising toxic connections.

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn "'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. a man's enemies will be the members of his own household. Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it." Matthew 10:34-39


The good news is, you are free to claim this evidence is overwhelming. It seems though, that you are miffed so many disagree with you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tyke
Upvote 0

mindlight

See in the dark
Supporter
Dec 20, 2003
13,596
2,659
London, UK
✟816,690.00
Country
Germany
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The good news is, you are free to claim this evidence is overwhelming. It seems though, that you are miffed so many disagree with you.

If a man can see someone else is driving his car quickly towards a cliff. If he calls out and says turn back and the other ignores him there are a range of experienced emotions. Miffed is not one of them though.
 
Upvote 0

quatona

"God"? What do you mean??
May 15, 2005
37,512
4,301
✟175,292.00
Faith
Seeker
If a man can see someone else is driving his car quickly towards a cliff. If he calls out and says turn back and the other ignores him there are a range of experienced emotions.
So your question is "How do I come to terms with my emotions seeing that not everyone believes as I do?", rather than "How do I convince someone that there is an invisible cliff?" (as the OP question appeared to be)?
 
Upvote 0

Nihilist Virus

Infectious idea
Oct 24, 2015
4,940
1,251
40
California
✟156,979.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
No because on examination none of those witnesses are credible ones and they stand alone. Jesus has a supernatural footprint witnessed directly by the 500 who saw Him risen, by the hundreds of thousands who saw him perform miracles and by the billions who know him today.

500 credible witnesses, of which you can name zero.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

mindlight

See in the dark
Supporter
Dec 20, 2003
13,596
2,659
London, UK
✟816,690.00
Country
Germany
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
500 credible witnesses, of which you can name zero.

The bible names the 11 remaining apostles and James the brother of Jesus as being among those 500 direct witnesses. Each of these men then lived out a devoted response to their experience of the risen Christ that included martyrdom in 12 out of the 13 just named. Add in subsequent transforming experiences of the risen Christ including that of St. Paul and there are enough credible witnesses to win any court case on the facts.
 
Upvote 0

mindlight

See in the dark
Supporter
Dec 20, 2003
13,596
2,659
London, UK
✟816,690.00
Country
Germany
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So your question is "How do I come to terms with my emotions seeing that not everyone believes as I do?", rather than "How do I convince someone that there is an invisible cliff?" (as the OP question appeared to be)?

I and the whole church agree that the cliff is there and we have warned you ,but feel free to fall over it if you do not believe me.
 
Upvote 0

Nihilist Virus

Infectious idea
Oct 24, 2015
4,940
1,251
40
California
✟156,979.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
The bible names the 11 remaining apostles and James the brother of Jesus as being among those 500 direct witnesses. Each of these men then lived out a devoted response to their experience of the risen Christ that included martyrdom in 12 out of the 13 just named. Add in subsequent transforming experiences of the risen Christ including that of St. Paul and there are enough credible witnesses to win any court case on the facts.

I'm talking about the 500. So you agree they were all unnamed right? How then are they credible?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: tyke
Upvote 0

quatona

"God"? What do you mean??
May 15, 2005
37,512
4,301
✟175,292.00
Faith
Seeker
I and the whole church agree that the cliff is there and we have warned you ,but feel free to fall over it if you do not believe me.
And that´s the way you try to convince non-believers that you are in hold of the truth, and this truth is good news, on top?
No wonder you ended up voicing your frustration with your lack of success in the OP.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

2PhiloVoid

Yes, you're right! I'm not Gandalf!
Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
21,125
9,946
The Void!
✟1,125,863.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Personally the evidence seems overwhelming to the point that it would seem dishonest to deny it.
....the last Christian I heard who claimed that the evidence was 'so clear' ended up divorcing his wife and stepping down from the ministry. I'm not sure that the evidence is so clear that it just automatically buoys us into the perpetual state of faith that many Christians seem to imply that it can.

As for us, we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard. Acts 4:20
However I do agree that Jesus Himself tended to hide the truth from those who were not being saved. His use of parables for instance.

My own mother-in law was an atheist who committed suicide. I do not know if God found some way to save her in her last seconds but it looks unlikely given what I do know. The consequences of such gospel rejection seem extreme to me. She had a life time of opportunities to find the truth and missed them all. It seems she thought that she could end her troubles by ending her life but more likely they are really now just beginning. This is not a game with words and it is even more important than even decisions about life and death.
I'm sorry to hear that your mother-in-law died without any sign of a positive response to Christ. I know that can be frustrating, as can be many other things in the Christian life.

The gospel can be presented gently and respectfully but so also it is a clear choice. Jesus did not urge his disciples to tiptoe around godless egos idolising toxic connections.
Well...I wouldn't say it is a 'clear' choice. To say so is to say that 1) God hasn't hidden anything from us, and 2) that Satan really is just a wimp whom we don't have to take into consideration in how He affects us in our lives. Both of these propositions are false.

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn "'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. a man's enemies will be the members of his own household. Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it." Matthew 10:34-39
Sure, Jesus didn't come to bring false 'political' peace like that of the Pax Romana. He instead came to be the Prince of Peace according to God's Will, a peace requiring that each one of us gets on the same page about His identity as Lord and Christ BEFORE we can have real social and spiritual peace with God and other people.

So, in essence, Jesus REALLY DID come to bring peace........just not the kind that everyone is wanting on their own terms. :cool:

Peace (in Christ),
2PhiloVoid
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

bhsmte

Newbie
Apr 26, 2013
52,761
11,796
✟247,431.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
If a man can see someone else is driving his car quickly towards a cliff. If he calls out and says turn back and the other ignores him there are a range of experienced emotions. Miffed is not one of them though.

You do realize, what you state above is simply your opinion, as you have failed to provide any objective or reliable evidence (outside of your personal perceptions) to support your claims?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums