Is the Bible Without Error?

I voted "It's complicated".
I'm at the point that while I think that there are contradictions within its pages, they can serve as a diagnostic tool that analyzes the the heart of the person who is reading it. It acts like a mirror, or, as I've said in other threads, an inkblot test.

We don't read the bible. The bible reads us.

THE W said:

2 timothy 3:16-17 and 2 peter 1:20-21 are saying the same thing. the scriptures written by men where inspired by God. man wasn't off on his own thinking his own thoughts but were the thoughts and words of the LORD through the Spirit.

you're welcomed to prove otherwise..



I already mentioned the translators not being inspired like the prophets and apostles. despite this, God providentially did preserve His Word for His people.



this verse doesn't deal with that issue. that verse is saying the OT prophets and NT apostles were lead by God in the Spirit to pen His Word.


not sure why this verse is being brought to bare unless you're saying the inspired prophets and apostles whom God directly chose were false scribes.



same for the NT apostles.. ephesians 2:19-20

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I will start by saying that the scriptures cannot be used to prove anything; if they could we would not have hundreds and thousands of Christian sects, there would only be one body.

The word "Inspiration is used twice in the KJV; used also in Job 32:8. In the English language the meaning of words are determined by the user, such that the dictionary gives most common usages. You have defined "inspiration" as God putting precise words in the pen of the scribe; this is a common belief that has no scriptural basis.

In the English, inspiration as a word, can be substituted by causation, influence, respiration, intuition, intelligence, imagination, diffuseness, inducement, contrivance, warm feeling, excitement, and revelation.

For Job 32:8 the KJV has "But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding".

Other translations use breath in place of inspiration; breath is interchangeable with spirit and the Hebrew word fundamentally means spirit.
Job 32:8 (NKJV)
8 But there is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding.

2 Timothy 3:16-17, shows that God's spirit is the force behind scripture but God does not generally provide dictation but provides motivation, understanding and wisdom.

I do not recall what you said that inspired me to mention Jer 8:8; but it is on topic and Jeremiah blames the false scribes for Israel's problems. for their breaking of the covenant and their captivity. It is interesting that the Hebrew word that is translated "scribe" means counter of numbers or mathematician. Why did I bring up Jeremiah 8:8; it is more useful to ask why did God inspire Jeremiah to prophesy in the first place and how is Jer 8:8 applicable to the new covenant.

chaela said:

I voted "It's complicated".
I'm at the point that while I think that there are contradictions within its pages, they can serve as a diagnostic tool that analyzes the the heart of the person who is reading it. It acts like a mirror, or, as I've said in other threads, an inkblot test.

We don't read the bible. The bible reads us.

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The scriptures should always be a puzzle, one should always be seeking understanding. Contradictions is a sign something is wrong, God does not contradict Himself. The Bible is the bread of life and used properly one grows into harvestable fruit.

sparow said:

I do not recall what you said that inspired me to mention Jer 8:8; but it is on topic and Jeremiah blames the false scribes for Israel's problems. for their breaking of the covenant and their captivity. It is interesting that the Hebrew word that is translated "scribe" means counter of numbers or mathematician. Why did I bring up Jeremiah 8:8; it is more useful to ask why did God inspire Jeremiah to prophesy in the first place and how is Jer 8:8 applicable to the new covenant.

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And if Jeremiah 8:8 only proves one thing, it proves this; that the providential hand of God certainly didn't preserve the 'bible' for his people in the OT. And we know the OT is certainly a big part of our bible today.

sparow said:

The scriptures should always be a puzzle, one should always be seeking understanding. Contradictions is a sign something is wrong, God does not contradict Himself. The Bible is the bread of life and used properly one grows into harvestable fruit.

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True, God doesn't contradict Himself.

As for Bread of Life, that would be Jesus, not a book.

The bible isn't God (imo), and it's not Jesus, so yes, it can contain contradictions. And that's fine, because I think those contradictions could be there by design, for the reasons I've already stated.

sparow said:

I will start by saying that the scriptures cannot be used to prove anything; if they could we would not have hundreds and thousands of Christian sects, there would only be one body.

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non-sequitur,

people's misunderstanding of truth does not mean truth doesn't exist in terms of scripture being true.

sparow said:

The word "Inspiration is used twice in the KJV; used also in Job 32:8. In the English language the meaning of words are determined by the user, such that the dictionary gives most common usages. You have defined "inspiration" as God putting precise words in the pen of the scribe; this is a common belief that has no scriptural basis.

In the English, inspiration as a word, can be substituted by causation, influence, respiration, intuition, intelligence, imagination, diffuseness, inducement, contrivance, warm feeling, excitement, and revelation.

For Job 32:8 the KJV has "But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding".

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yet again, I never claimed some "automatic writing" thing so you and the other guy have been arguing a straw-man. when the apostle wrote scripture, they were communicating God's thoughts to His people. same for the OT prophets.

sparow said:

Other translations use breath in place of inspiration; breath is interchangeable with spirit and the Hebrew word fundamentally means spirit.
Job 32:8 (NKJV)
8 But there is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding.

2 Timothy 3:16-17, shows that God's spirit is the force behind scripture but God does not generally provide dictation but provides motivation, understanding and wisdom.

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see above about arguing a straw-man

sparow said:

I do not recall what you said that inspired me to mention Jer 8:8; but it is on topic and Jeremiah blames the false scribes for Israel's problems. for their breaking of the covenant and their captivity. It is interesting that the Hebrew word that is translated "scribe" means counter of numbers or mathematician. Why did I bring up Jeremiah 8:8; it is more useful to ask why did God inspire Jeremiah to prophesy in the first place and how is Jer 8:8 applicable to the new covenant.

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yet again, unless you're claiming the apostles were false teachers, I don't see the point of this reference.

THE W said:

non-sequitur,

people's misunderstanding of truth does not mean truth doesn't exist in terms of scripture being true.



yet again, I never claimed some "automatic writing" thing so you and the other guy have been arguing a straw-man. when the apostle wrote scripture, they were communicating God's thoughts to His people. same for the OT prophets.



see above about arguing a straw-man



yet again, unless you're claiming the apostles were false teachers, I don't see the point in this reference.

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I never called you a straw man. What Jer 8:8 shows is God says what is presented as scripture is not necessarily so.

sparow said:

I never called you a straw man. What Jer 8:8 shows is God says what is presented as scripture is not necessarily so.

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no you did not, rather you were arguing against a straw-man in that you were debating a point I never made.

jere 8:8 is talking about scribes who were not sent from God and were thus false scribes. yet again, are you saying Paul and the other apostles were not sent from God and were false scribes?

Hillsage said:

And if Jeremiah 8:8 only proves one thing, it proves this; that the providential hand of God certainly didn't preserve the 'bible' for his people in the OT. And we know the OT is certainly a big part of our bible today.

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I believe the scriptures have been preserved but that does not mean every copy is authentic; but Jeremiah may not be talking about scripture print but about interpretation and legalism; I believe the role of the Scribe was more than copying scripture; because history repeats itself we can be sure that what Jeremiah was referring to is happening again in our time; the OT is one of two witnesses; the OT and the NT have to be in agreement for any scripture to be valid.

THE W said:

no you did not, rather you were arguing against a straw-man in that you were debating a point I never made.

jere 8:8 is talking about scribes who were not sent from God and were thus false scribes. yet again, are you saying Paul and the other apostles were not sent from God and were false scribes?

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Jeremiah was referring to the time when Judah had broken the covenant to he point that the covenant was dysfunctional; while the scribes are blamed the whole of Judah is punished so therefore they were all without excuse.

Jesus commissioned the twelve so they are sent with God's blessing; we only have Paul testifying of himself to support his claims. Jesus assured the apostles that He would not do anything unless He warned them first. Paul was not announced to the apostles by Jesus; the couple who had dreams did so after the alleged encounter with Jesus, not before. There is a requirement that we test the apostles, Paul fails my test, but I cannot test him for you, you have to test him for your self. What I did about 35 years ago was to read the four Gospels, Acts, Romans and part of 1 Corinthians and I rejected Paul out of hand in that he was opposing Christ; I was not indoctrinated by anyone.

You may find this interesting, the author is a Dr. of Theology and a Professor.

http://www.barriewilson.com/pdf/Taking-Paul-at-His-Word.pdf

sparow said:

Jeremiah was referring to the time when Judah had broken the covenant to he point that the covenant was dysfunctional; while the scribes are blamed the whole of Judah is punished so therefore they were all without excuse.

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yet again, what's your point?

sparow said:

Jesus commissioned the twelve so they are sent with God's blessing; we only have Paul testifying of himself to support his claims. Jesus assured the apostles that He would not do anything unless He warned them first. Paul was not announced to the apostles by Jesus; the couple who had dreams did so after the alleged encounter with Jesus, not before. There is a requirement that we test the apostles, Paul fails my test, but I cannot test him for you, you have to test him for your self. What I did about 35 years ago was to read the four Gospels, Acts, Romans and part of 1 Corinthians and I rejected Paul out of hand in that he was opposing Christ; I was not indoctrinated by anyone.

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in short, Paul's experience on Damascus road didn't happen. I've heard this one before.

is this just how you felt after reading or can you actually provide evidence of this?

sparow said:

You may find this interesting, the author is a Dr. of Theology and a Professor.

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with most seminaries, where people get their doctorates in theology and Mdivs, being as liberal as they come, I take what these quacks in theology have to say with a grain of salt. this guys chart #1 is a rather inaccurate depiction of these two movements the author attempts to separate and put at odds with each other. one example is that it was Jesus who did away with the dietary laws and not Paul(matthew 15:10-20) as well as his alleged breaking of the Sabbath to heal a man.

sparow said:

I believe the scriptures have been preserved but that does not mean every copy is authentic; but Jeremiah may not be talking about scripture print but about interpretation and legalism; I believe the role of the Scribe was more than copying scripture; because history repeats itself we can be sure that what Jeremiah was referring to is happening again in our time; the OT is one of two witnesses; the OT and the NT have to be in agreement for any scripture to be valid.

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That the scribes were more than just 'copiers' of scripture I have no doubt, but that is certainly not the context of the verse. Their denominationally indoctrinated scribes then, were just like our scribes today. It is even worse today, since translators now are bound by legal contracts, with money motivated publishers, to agree with a statement of faith that I wouldn't sign. And not just me, but also many Christians whose allegiance to the truth surpasses our allegiance to orthodoxy. Even our venerable King James Version translation was bound to doctrinal stipulations made by 'the king' himself...no, not Jesus.

And this denominaltionalism of the Jews is not only still very evident today, but also in the days of Jesus with the Sadducee and Pharisees. It was also evident in the scriptures as transcribed by the denominational scribes of the Deuteronomist, Masoretic and Yawheist Jews of Jeremiah's days. And it is to 'that perversion' of scripture, to which Jeremiah was referring.

THE W said:

yet again, what's your point?



in short, Paul's experience on Damascus road didn't happen. I've heard this one before.

is this just how you felt after reading or can you actually provide evidence of this?



with most seminaries, where people get their doctorates in theology and Mdivs, being as liberal as they come, I take what these quacks in theology have to say with a grain of salt. this guys chart #1 is a rather inaccurate depiction of these two movements the author attempts to separate and put at odds with each other. one example is that it was Jesus who did away with the dietary laws and not Paul(matthew 15:10-20) as well as his alleged breaking of the Sabbath to heal a man.

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<<yet again, what's your point?>>

Addressing the topic, "is the Bible without error," Jer 8:8 shows that the scribes who write and copy the scriptures are corruptible.

<<in short, Paul's experience on Damascus road didn't happen. I've heard this one before.

is this just how you felt after reading or can you actually provide evidence of this?>>

What happened on the road to Damascus I do not know because I wasn't there; had I been there I would not have believed what Hear and only half of what saw. But reason tells me something happened. Had that angel of light been Jesus then the event would be an antitype of something that had happened before and I am not aware of any type for this; apart from Jesus telling the apostles He would not do anything without warning them first, the angel of light event is not historically Biblical.

But addressing your question did Paul's experience happen; it is more likely something happened than not; hypothetically if the angel of light was Satan then Paul may have been deceived; other wise it is more likely Paul was working with someone than being a lone wolf; Paul was a Roman citizen and Rome had an interest in the new church; Paul was a Pharisee and the Pharisees had an interest in the new church and they knew how to white ant a church because it had been done them many times. The Pharisees and Rome would know anyone of three things could sterilise the new church, abrogating the Law (covenant), mixing doctrine with paganism and abrogating circumcision.

So given that I do not really know I take the path of least resistance and do not use Paul as an authority on anything; If I needed Paul for my salvation that would mean Christ was not sufficient.

sparow said:

Addressing the topic, "is the Bible without error," Jer 8:8 shows that the scribes who write and copy the scriptures are corruptible.

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that doesn't really answer the question as the verse doesn't deal with the original writers of scripture. it actually deals with those who would write to deceive or are under a false authority. there were false prophets even back then. moses and other writers of scripture were not those false prophets.

we go back to the fact that unless you're saying the original writers of scripture(ie moses) were false prophets, the point of this reference is lost.

sparow said:

What happened on the road to Damascus I do not know because I wasn't there; had I been there I would not have believed what Hear and only half of what saw. But reason tells me something happened. Had that angel of light been Jesus then the event would be an antitype of something that had happened before and I am not aware of any type for this; apart from Jesus telling the apostles He would not do anything without warning them first, the angel of light event is not historically Biblical.

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so your evidence for the Damascus road event not happening is that something like it never happened before?

sparow said:

But addressing your question did Paul's experience happen; it is more likely something happened than not; hypothetically if the angel of light was Satan then Paul may have been deceived; other wise it is more likely Paul was working with someone than being a lone wolf; Paul was a Roman citizen and Rome had an interest in the new church; Paul was a Pharisee and the Pharisees had an interest in the new church and they knew how to white ant a church because it had been done them many times. The Pharisees and Rome would know anyone of three things could sterilise the new church, abrogating the Law (covenant), mixing doctrine with paganism and abrogating circumcision.

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cool story bro.

sparow said:

So given that I do not really know I take the path of least resistance and do not use Paul as an authority on anything; If I needed Paul for my salvation that would mean Christ was not sufficient.

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to love God is to follow His commandments. he gave his commandments through the apostles and prophets so to ignore the word of paul(or peter, john, james, or jude) is to ignore the Word of the LORD(1 Corinthians 14:37)

THE W said:

that doesn't really answer the question as the verse doesn't deal with the original writers of scripture. it actually deals with those who would write to deceive or are under a false authority. there were false prophets even back then. moses and other writers of scripture were not those false prophets.

we go back to the fact that unless you're saying the original writers of scripture(ie moses) were false prophets, the point of this reference is lost.



so your evidence for the Damascus road event not happening is that something like it never happened before?



cool story bro.



to love God is to follow His commandments. he gave his commandments through the apostles and prophets so to ignore the word of paul(or peter, john, james, or jude) is to ignore the Word of the LORD(1 Corinthians 14:37)

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Maybe I do not understand your question. I don't think any originals exist from beyond the captivity; if the did they would not be written in the Hebrew script; they would need to be buried in bottles and even then they would only last a couple of thousand years. Scrolls in use would have had a relatively short life I would expect which is why they needed to be continually copied; when it comes to scripture, original never means original; even with the NT the earliest copy is not original; some called original are third centaury copies.

<<so your evidence for the Damascus road event not happening is that something like it never happened before?>>

One cannot prove a negative hypothesis, and a positive hypothesis has only the possibility of being proven.