Are Christians obigated to obey any OT laws?

noam burde said:

at any point almost, when God tries to give people teaching. he does it in fictional stories, that only a person that wants to understand the hidden message in them, will understand.
yeshua/jesus gave almost all his teachings in parables which are exactly this. and in metaphors and analogies. which are kind of this.
all the true prophets where also like this.
if you take the bible literally. it totally doesn't make sense.
like the world was created 5000 year ago. because a woman and a man listened to what a snake told them about a fruit.
the whole world was flooded some time after.
there is an evil creature that is the one that causes all the bad things to happen(devil).
God will BURN ALIVE FOREVER most people after they die.
the same God that is loving and created this people the way they are(in his likenes).
does any of this make any sense as its written. no..
its for the few that want to do the will of god. to figure what he is trying to say.
matthew 6 13-14:
13 “Go in through the narrow gate; for the gate that leads to destruction is wide and the road broad, and many travel it; 14 but it is a narrow gate and a hard road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

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Soyeong said:

The word "Torah" literally means "instruction", but is often translated as "law", so you are essentially saying that it should never be about following God's instructions; it should be about following God's instructions.

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Yarddog said:

Hmmm, is that what you got out of the post as it relates to the OP?

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Soyeong said:

The Spirit has the role of leading us in obedience to God's Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), so if we are walking in the Spirit and letting God be our guide, then we are walking in obedience to the instructions that He gave to guide us through His Law, so to say that it is not about Law was to contradict what you said after that. Followers of God are obligated to follow God, not sure what else is there in regard to the OP.

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Neogaia777 said:

What is walking in the Spirit?

Is it being fully conscious of the invisible spirits around you and others, and in others, and in you...? Seeing their work, their operating and manipulating and orchestrating things here, helps you to get to a point where that consciousness of the spirit realm around us and with us, never goes away and you live with it/them in mind constantly...

Is that kind of like walking in the spirit...?

Would it have to do with elevating your thoughts...? Mindful of the things above, and not the thing below...?

God Bless!

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Soyeong said:

The Law was given to people that God had already declared righteous by faith as instructions for how to therefore do what is righteous, so the Law is not God's instructions for how to become righteous, but how to do what is righteous. For example, helping the poor is part of God's instructions for how to do what is righteous in accordance with His righteousness, so it is something that someone who is righteous is called to do by faith, but no amount of helping the poor will cause someone who is not righteous to become righteous. Yet what your response amounts to saying that because we can't become righteous by helping the poor, therefore we can't rely on God's instructions to help the poor as a way to live righteous lives. According to Psalms 19:7, the decrees of God are trustworthy, but if you do not that we can rely on them, then does that not show a distinct lack of faith in Him?

In 1 John 3:4-10, it says that everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices Lawlessness, that sin is Lawlessness, that no one who is born of God continues to make a practice of sinning because they are born of God, and that whoever does not practice righteousness is not born of God. So we are to follow God's instructions in His Law for how to practice righteousness and how to avoid sin, not in order to become righteous, but because we are children of God. In 2 Timothy 3:16-17, we are told that all OT Scripture (which primarily includes God's Law) is profitable for training in righteousness and equipping us to do every good work. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good and to renounce doing what is ungodly, sinful, and Lawless. In Ephesians 2:8-10, it says that we have been saved by grace through faith not by doing good works, but for the purpose of doing them, so following God's instruction in His Law for how to do good works is not something we are do in order to become saved, but because we have been saved. So it goes more like this.

P1- God's Law is His instructions for how to practice righteousness
P2- God's Law is His instructions for how to love Him and our neighbor
P3- We are told to practice righteousness
P4- We are told to love God and our neighbor
P5- We have faith in God to guide us in how to live righteously
P6- We love God and our neighbor
C- Therefore we should at least follow God's Law

All of the commands in the NT are based off of principles found in the OT, so there are no instructions found in the NT for how to practice righteous that are distinct from the OT, but even if additional laws for how to act according to God's righteousness were added in the NT (in violation of Deuteronomy 4:2), then way to practice would still nevertheless be inclusive of the instructions found in God's Law.




I do not consider the laws in the NT to be distinct from those of the OT, but clearly, if you consider a set of laws to be a bondage, then that reflects rather negatively on your opinion of the lawgiver and on whether they can be trusted to give good laws. God said that what He commanded was for His people's own good, to teach us how to live in a way where we will prosper and be blessed, to be a delight, and that they are not too difficult for us, so consider His Law to be bondage also shows a distinct lack of faith in Him to guide you in how to rightly live.



Again, it is important to correctly distinguish between what is said about man's works of law and about God's Law. There is no definitive article in the Greek, so the phrase "works of the law" is literally translated as "works of law", which means that it does not refer to a definitive set of laws, such as the Mosaic Law, but rather Paul used it to refer to a large body of Jewish oral laws, traditions, rulings, and fences which the Pharisees were teaching that people needed to obey in order to become saved, which is confirmed by its the use of the phrase in Qumran Text 4QMMT. This is why Paul was arguing against being saved by their works of law and in favor of becoming saved by faith, which is the one and only way that there has ever been to become saved, and by the same faith we are to uphold God's Law (Romans 3:31). In Romans 3:27, Paul was very clearly contrasting a law that was not of faith with a different law that is of faith, so man-made works of law are not of faith, while God's Law is of faith, and it straightforwardly is in regard to having faith in Him to guide us in how to rightly live.

As Jesus said in Matthew 23:23, faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law, so the Book of the Law again is of faith and those who were instead relying of their works of the law were under a curse because they were not living by faith in God and thus failing to do everything in the Book of the Law.



According to Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the requirements of the Law of Christ, so does that mean that doing so brings the Law of Christ to an end? According to Romans 15:18-19, Paul fulfilled the Gospel, so did he bring it to an end? According to Galatians 5:14, loving your neighbor fulfills the entire law, so fulfilling the entire law is something that everyone since Moses who has loved their neighbor has done, which means it does not refer to something unique that Jesus did. Rather:

Pleroo: to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment

In Matthew 5, after Jesus said he came to fulfills the Law, he then proceeded to fulfill it six times by causing God's will (as made known in the Law) to be obeyed as it should be. According to Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, and God's Law is His instructions for how to do good works, so we should not return to the Lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from.



Again, I have never suggested that we can become justified either by obeying God's Law or by obeying man's works of law. God had many reasons for hiving His Law, but providing the means of becoming justified was never one of them.



Those who return to their works of law in order to become saved after they have already been saved would indeed be making Christ's offering of no value, but so would returning to the Lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from. So I agree that we have received grace apart from our works of law, but David being taught to obey God's Law is how he received grace (Psalms 119:29), and we also have received grace to bring about the obedience that faith requires (Romans 1:5).



In Romans 10:5-10, it quotes Deuteronomy 30:11-14 in regard to what our faith says in regard the righteousness of the Law that Moses wrote about. Our faith says that God's laws are not too difficult for us, it is not far off, but is near you, in your mouth and in your heart so that you can do it. This is what it means to submit to Jesus as Lord and to submit to his commands by faith. This is how the Israelites lived or did not live by faith and the example of how we are to live or not live by faith, and we are to learn from their example of disobedience that we might not desire evil as they did, not so that we can emulate it (1 Corinthians 10:1-13). Every example of saving faith in Hebrews 11 is also an example of someone living in obedience to God's commands, so living by faith has never referred to some other manner of living that is not seeking to live in obedience to God's commands. God said that what He commanded is for His people's own good (Deuteronomy 6:24), so you can either have faith that what God said is true and therefore accordingly or you can believe that He is an unloving Father who puts unbearable burdens on His children and therefore act accordingly.



I don't see any reasons to think that they are not synonymous, so feel free to point out ways that they are not. The Law instructs us how to live according to God's righteousness and the Spirit has the role of leading us in obedience to the law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), the Father was not acting against His Spirit when He gave the Law to Moses, and the Spirit and the Son are not in disagreement with the Father about what conduct we should have. Rather the fruits of the Spirit are all in accordance with the Law and Jesus said that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father (John 7:16), so neither the Spirit nor the Son will teach to disobey what the Father has commanded.

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RaymondG said:

You are right, please move on to other posters and stop wasting time on me.

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Uber Genius said:

Apparently you disagree with both Paul calling those who follow the law, "Foolish" and , "Ignorant,"

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but also the author of Hbrews who says,

"Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well." (‭Hebrews‬ ‭7‬:‭11-12‬ ESV)

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Neogaia777 said:

What is walking in the Spirit?

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Yarddog said:

Forget the law. It is not the way to follow God in your life decisions. There are multitudes of things which affect our lives which the law has no answer for.

When we let go of our feeling of having to obey some written ordinance and truly walk in God's Spirit we lose the desires which compel us to do wrong. Then, it is God's work within us.

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Uber Genius said:

By all means follow Aaron, I will follow Melchizedek and Jesus who came as a priest in the order of Melchizedek.

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pat34lee said:

Of course, when you don't know right from wrong, you will choose wrong.
And being ignorant of God's laws, you won't be tempted to repent and
seek forgiveness. Even if you believe in once saved always saved, that is
how you separate yourself from God and become useless to him here.

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Uber Genius said:

"The Law," has different purposes and meanings that need definition to avoid equivocation or sweeping geralizations. That said we see that the law coupled with humans who have not been I dwelled by the HS, and living by that he power of the HS, is described as powerless!

2For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the Law was powerless to doin that it was weakened by the flesh, God didby sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the righteous standard of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.…
Romans 8:2-4

Jesus fulfills the requirements of the law.

We likewise live by the spirit and follow Christ, not by keeping the OT laws but by loving God, and our neighbor the way Christ taught.

Both the Law if followed and Indwelt life of the Christian disciple if one achieves maturity, produce God's righteousness. But no one but Jesus could keep the law!

When the judaizers engage Christians and lead them back to the law in Galatia, Paul calls them, "Foolish," and, "Bewitched," and, "Ignorant." These are not superlatives. Galatians 5:19-23 give a constrast between the flesh and the spirit. We are called to live by the latter. This is not the law but it subsumes the law and does produce God's righteousness just as the law would if anyone had been able to keep it.[/QUO

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pat34lee said:

Of course, when you don't know right from wrong, you will choose wrong.
And being ignorant of God's laws, you won't be tempted to repent and
seek forgiveness. Even if you believe in once saved always saved, that is
how you separate yourself from God and become useless to him here.

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food4thought said:

For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM." Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM." (Gal 3:10-12)

Those who place themselves under the Law are under a curse.

But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. (Gal 3:23-25)

The Law was a tutor to bring us to Christ, but we who believe are no longer under the Law.

Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND." And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN." So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.
(Gal 4:21-31)

The Law has no place in the household of the promise.

Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. (Col 2:16-17)

Following the Law's commands regarding clean foods, feasts and the Sabbath day are simply shadows, not to be kept by those who believe and know the truth.

When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 8:13)

The Law is obsolete.

I could go on...

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