Hell's Population Clock

WebersHome · Jun 22, 2017

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"Right Back Atcha"

I once heard President Obama reply to criticism with almost those exact same words; viz: he didn't deny the truth of the criticism, but instead employed the age-old tactic of accusing his critic of the very same things; which, I guess in his mind; somehow mitigated his own culpability; but the honorable response would have been for him to man-up and admit his conduct was unbecoming rather than stoop to recriminations.

It's very common for people to respond to criticism the same way Mr. Obama did. It's all the same as saying: Who are you to talk? Well; regardless of who someone is to talk, if the criticism is true; then it stands; viz: recriminations are futile. All they do is pull someone down with you so you don't go down alone.

I predict there's going to be a quite a bit of resentment and indignation at the great white throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15 when the dead see people in white who they know to be guilty of the very same things for which they will be sentenced to the reservoir of brimstone.

Human nature is funny. If I criticize a tree, it doesn't react. If I criticize a spider; it doesn't react. If I criticize a Guinea pig, it doesn't react. If I criticize a parakeet, it doesn't react. But if I criticize an h.sapiens; it bristles and becomes defensive. It's a curious behavior.

So; how might I describe human nature? I think I could accurately describe it as both judgmental and defensive.

● Rom 2:15 . .Their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or else excusing one another.

POPULATION CLOCK UPDATE: 3 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 182,190 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since June 19, 2017.

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Rajni · Jun 22, 2017

WebersHome said:
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Picture a mountain with many roads around the base heading towards the top. Well; Christianity accepts only one of those roads reaches the top; viz: the rest are dead-ends, terraces and cul-de-sacs, i.e. no outlets and nowhere to go except back down the mountain.

Now picture a huge pit, deep and wide, with many roads around the rim heading towards the bottom. Well; Christianity accepts that every one of those roads reaches the bottom; viz: there are no dead ends, no terraces, and no cul-de-sacs. In other words; people can get to hell any number of ways; but only one way to the new cosmos depicted at 2Pet 3:10-13 and the 21st chapter of Revelation.

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My point is that more than one religion can paint that picture about themselves as contrasted to other religions, with some kind of hellish outcome for anyone who doesn't follow their particular path.

.Mikha'el. · Jun 22, 2017

ON!

Thread moved from Christian Scriptures to Controversial Christian Theology!

OFF!

WebersHome · Jun 23, 2017

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● Mark 9:47-48 . . If your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out. It is better to enter the kingdom of God half blind than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell; where the worm never dies and the fire never goes out.

Christ's instructions didn't reveal anything new. He simply reiterated information that had already been released by an Old Testament prophet roughly 700 years before.

● Isa 66:22-24 . . From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me-- speaks the Lord. And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against Me: their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.

That rather ghastly scene depicts a sort of tourist attraction similar to the La Brea Tar Pits museum in Los Angeles where the remains of prehistoric creatures, excavated from ancient asphalt deposits, are on display.

A worm that thrives in flame is pretty amazing, but not unreasonable. The 4-inch Pompeii worm lives in sea water temperatures of 176° Fahrenheit, hot enough to kill salmonella and sanitize an egg. So I guess if God could create a worm like the Pompeii, it shouldn't be too difficult for Him to create worms that like it even warmer.

Q: The human body is organic. So then, how can it survive in flame as perpetual nourishment for those worms?

A: The laws of nature are not absolute. They were created in the first chapter of Genesis to control the behavior of created matter, and as such are easily manipulated by the one who designed them.

For example: fire totally incinerated the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah but left unscathed a desert shrub that Moses encountered in the Sinai outback while tending his father-in-law's sheep. (Ex 3:1-3)

Compare Dan 3:8-27 where a blistering hot fire left didn't even so much as singe the clothing of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego while slaying the guards that threw them in the furnace.

Q: Won't the worms eventually exhaust their food supply?

A: There are incidents in the Bible where small amounts of food stuffs were miraculously multiplied. One example is 1Kgs 17:8-16 where a tiny bit of flour and oil nourished Elijah and a widow woman, and her son, for a good many days during a time of prolonged drought.

Another incident is at 2Kgs 4:1-7 where a certain widow's husband died and left her deeply in debt. God multiplied her last pot of oil sufficiently to sell enough to pay off her debts, thereby saving her two sons from slavery.

No; I'm pretty sure those worms won't need to worry about running out of human remains with which to sustain themselves.

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Blade · Jun 23, 2017

This is one area I don't play with or play in. I know my Father lives in the now..and is out side time. Yet as of this moment no books have been open. And since only GOD can see the heart and Jesus said if I had not come and spoken they would have no sin. Jesus said..if you were blind you would have no sin. You say you see..your sin remains.

I will not go on.. your talking about people.. that a GOD made. Where we know Jesus loved the world and died took all the punishment at one time. It really cost God something to die..to take MANS place. I prayed when I was about 15 or so..all the time..to see people through His eyes. Well 15years later He answered it. Ask Him.. you will never see people the same. Holy Jesus.. I will not talk about HIS creation HIS children and being gone forever. I have two boys.. I can't even tell you the pain.. of knowing one would be lost away from me ..FOREVER! And yet some do this kind of talk to a GOD!

Love them the same kind of love He loves you. See them by faith.. as HE DOES! He is in the now.. there is so much more to this then man sees and thinks. And.. since as the word says.. every man is a liar Rom 3:4..so when I heard things like most will be lost (NOT by you).. I know most will be saved. Man will never be right.. only HE is true.

So.. unless you ask.. He will not show you.. so ask.. to see to FEEL and it will so small.. you could never understand all He feels for HIS CREATION that is VERY VERY GOOD!..please.. remember to whom you are talking to belongs to.. as in made by.. and children of that are believers in Christ

Rajni · Jun 23, 2017

WebersHome said:

No; I'm pretty sure those worms won't need to worry about running out of human remains with which to sustain themselves.

Click to expand...

They might need to. For no one is cast off by the Lord forever.

WebersHome · Jun 24, 2017

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● Gen 2:15-17 . .The Lord God took the man and placed him in the garden of Eden, to till it and tend it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying: Of every tree of the garden you are free to eat; but as for the tree of knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat of it; for in the day you eat of it, you shall die.

That passage is a favorite of the Bible's critics because Adam didn't drop dead the instant he tasted the forbidden fruit. In point of fact, he continued to live outside the garden of Eden for another 800 years after the birth of his son Seth. (Gen 5:4)

So; is there a reasonable explanation for this apparent discrepancy?

Well; first thing to point out is that in order for the threat to resonate in Adam's thinking; it had to be related to death as Adam understood death in his day, rather than death as modern Bible thumpers understand it in their day. In other words: Adam didn't expect to die spiritually. No, he expected to die normally; viz: physically; like as in pass away.

How can I be so sure that God meant normal death instead of spiritual death? Because according to Gen 3:19 that's how it worked out; and to make sure Adam stayed normally dead, God blocked his access to the tree of life. (Gen 3:22-24)

Anyway; the trick is: Adam wasn't told he would die the instant he tasted the fruit. God's exact words were "in the day"

According to Gen 2:4, the Hebrew word for "day" is a bit ambiguous. It can easily indicate a period of time much, much longer than 24 hours; viz: the day of everybody's death began the moment Adam ate the fruit.

"Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men." (Rom 5:12)

Well; like Jack Palance's character Curly in the movie City Slickers said: The day ain't over yet.

According to post #1, an average of 7,200 Americans of all ages, races, and genders pass away every 24 hours. In a year's time that adds up to 2,622,600 lives down the drain. And that's just counting America's deceased. Similar numbers are passing away all over the globe in both the northern and southern hemispheres.

"It is better to go to a house of mourning than to go to a house of gaiety, for death is the destiny of every man; the living should take this seriously." (Ecc 7:2)

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Rajni · Jun 24, 2017

God is the Savior of all men, especially (not exclusively) of believers.

ClementofA · Jun 24, 2017

WebersHome said:
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According to Jesus Christ's testimony as a credible expert witness in all matters pertaining to the afterlife; most of the world's responsible souls haven't been making it to safety when they cross over to the other side.

● Luke 13:22-24 . . And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. Then said one unto him, master, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them: Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Are there few that BE saved? Present tense. It does not speak of final destiny.

Jesus doesn't answer the question directly. He says many will seek to enter "at the straight gate" and shall not "be able". It seems they were trying to enter but, for some reason, didn't have the ability. He does not say they will *never* be able or never be saved. To the contrary:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

Fear not, said the angel who announced it, for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Luke 2:10.
Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. Luke 2:14.
But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Luke 6:35

Luke 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1 Cor.13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing...
4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away...
13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive... 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

1Tim.2:4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;

Yes, even Judas, Pharoah, Sodom & Hitler.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Ron Gurley · Jun 24, 2017

OP: Q1: "Hell's Population Clock ?"

A1: Your "facts" are irrelevant and your theology is non-Biblical!

The "Truth"

a. "Heaven" is a spiritual realm beyond Man's time and space with INFINITE "room". It is the dwelling place of spirit beings: The TRI-UNE GOD + angels + saved BELIEVERS.

b. "Lake of Fire" is a spiritual realm beyond Man's time and space with INFINITE "room". It is the dwelling place of spirit beings: the unholy 3 (devil+anti-christ+anti-spirit) + concepts of Death and Hades + sentenced UNsaved UNbelievers.

" HEAVEN "

1. Jesus the Christ preached on "Abraham's Bosom = Paradise + Hades"
The Rich Man and Lazarus...Luke 16:19-31

2. John 5:24 Jesus:..“Truly, truly, I say to you,
he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

3. 64 times as the Hebrew word "Sheol" appears in the OT, ...the lowest grave in the earth

4. Acts 23:8
For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor an angel, nor a spirit,
but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.

5. Ecclesiastes 12:1,7... At "death"of the Body/Soul combo, SPIRIT returns to God who gave it!

"heaven" occurs 456 times in 436 verses in the NASB, almost equally in the OT and the NT

Genesis 2:4
This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.

and heaven...Hebrew 8064...shamayim...visible heavens, sky; ...Heaven (as the abode of God)

Matthew 5:12
“Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

heaven...Greek 3772...ouranos...
I.the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it
A.the universe, the world (kozmos)
B.the aerial heavens or sky, the region where the clouds and the tempests gather, and where thunder and lightning are produced (atmosphere)
C.the sidereal or starry heavens
II.the region ABOVE the sidereal heavens,
the seat of order of things eternal and consummately perfect where God dwells and other heavenly beings (ANGELS + SAVED BELIEVERS)

" LAKE of FIRE "

The "lake of fire" of Revelation is clearly described.

1. It is a place created by God to restrain Satan, demons, the un-holy trinity, death, and the bad side of Abraham's Bosom..."Hades".

2. It is a place of eternal separation from the TRI-UNE GOD's realm "HEAVEN" now and in the future: New Heavens and the New Earth and the New Jerusalem

3. At the Great White Throne Judgment, God SENTENCES UN-BELIEVERS whose names are NOT written in the Lamb's Book of Life to dwell therein.

Revelation 20:15 (NASB); SEE ALSO 21:8
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the (LAMB'S)"book of life" (believers),
he (un-believer) was thrown into the "lake of fire".

Revelation 20:10..the UNHOLY 3
And the "devil"(SATAN/DRAGON/SERPENT/fallen lucifer etc.) who deceived them
was thrown into the "lake of fire and brimstone", where the "beast" (anti-christ) and the "false prophet' (anti-spirit) are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20:14
Then "death" and "Hades" (CONCEPTS: not places) were thrown into the "lake of fire".
This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8 (NASB)
But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars (unsaved sinners), their part will be in the "lake that burns with fire and brimstone", which is the second death.”

Revelation 20:5
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.
This is the "first resurrection".
Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection;
over these the second death has no power,
but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

And there is no provision for the removal of the Spirits sentenced to reside there!!

WebersHome · Jun 24, 2017

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Rev 20:11-15 depicts capital punishment akin to a foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten iron. The resulting death is permanent because according to Dan 12:2 and John 5:28-29, there is only one resurrection allotted per person.

This means that people executed in the lake won't be coming back because they will have used up their one allotted resurrection to appear in court and face justice at the great white throne event.

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Ron Gurley · Jun 24, 2017

POST #26:" For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. "
POST #27: " God is the Savior of all men, especially (not exclusively) of believers. "

RESPONSE: out of context twisted snippets which are false doctrines of "Christian? UNIVERSALISM"

Mark 9:45...A METAPHOR!
If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell,

1 Timothy 4: 6-10 (NASB) Paul's Advice-A Good Minister’s Discipline
6 In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus,
constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following.
7 But have nothing to do with worldly fables fit only for old women. On the other hand, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness;
8 for bodily discipline is only of little profit, but godliness is profitable for all things,
since it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come.
9 It is a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance.
10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God,
who is the Savior of all men (who accept Him), especially of believers.

especially...Greek 3122...malista...1...chiefly, most of all, above all

"Christian Universalism" is the theological position that: ALL of mankind will ultimately be "saved" through Jesus, whether or not spirit-led FAITH / BELIEF leads to salvation in this life.
It claims that God's qualities require that ALL people be saved and that eternal punishment is a false doctrine.There is no distinction between those who ACCEPT God and REJECT God.
Salvation is not from "hell" and eternal spiritual separation / death, but Salvation is ONLY from sin.

That false doctrine is contrary to the very heart of orthodox Christ-following.

John 3: 17-18, 36
...For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world,
but that the world might be SAVED THROUGH Him.
He who BELIEVES in Him is not judged;
he who does not believe has been judged already,
because he has not BELIEVED in the name of the only begotten Son of God...
He who BELIEVES in the Son has eternal life;
but he who does not obey the Son will not see life,
but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Rajni · Jun 24, 2017

Thank you for sharing.

Ron Gurley · Jun 24, 2017

Here is the Great White Throne Sentencing of UNbelievers.:

Revelation 20:15
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the (Lamb's) "book of life", (saved believers)
he was thrown into the "lake of fire".

ClementofA · Jun 24, 2017

Ron Gurley said:
OP: Q1: "Hell's Population Clock ?"

A1: Your "facts" are irrelevant and your theology is non-Biblical!

The "Truth"

a. "Heaven" is a spiritual realm beyond Man's time and space with INFINITE "room". It is the dwelling place of spirit beings: The TRI-UNE GOD + angels + saved BELIEVERS.

b. "Lake of Fire" is a spiritual realm beyond Man's time and space with INFINITE "room". It is the dwelling place of spirit beings: the unholy 3 (devil+anti-christ+anti-spirit) + concepts of Death and Hades + sentenced UNsaved UNbelievers.

" HEAVEN "

1. Jesus the Christ preached on "Abraham's Bosom = Paradise + Hades"
The Rich Man and Lazarus...Luke 16:19-31

2. John 5:24 Jesus:..“Truly, truly, I say to you,
he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

3. 64 times as the Hebrew word "Sheol" appears in the OT, ...the lowest grave in the earth

4. Acts 23:8
For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor an angel, nor a spirit,
but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.

5. Ecclesiastes 12:1,7... At "death"of the Body/Soul combo, SPIRIT returns to God who gave it!

"heaven" occurs 456 times in 436 verses in the NASB, almost equally in the OT and the NT

Genesis 2:4
This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.

and heaven...Hebrew 8064...shamayim...visible heavens, sky; ...Heaven (as the abode of God)

Matthew 5:12
“Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

heaven...Greek 3772...ouranos...
I.the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it
A.the universe, the world (kozmos)
B.the aerial heavens or sky, the region where the clouds and the tempests gather, and where thunder and lightning are produced (atmosphere)
C.the sidereal or starry heavens
II.the region ABOVE the sidereal heavens,
the seat of order of things eternal and consummately perfect where God dwells and other heavenly beings (ANGELS + SAVED BELIEVERS)

" LAKE of FIRE "

The "lake of fire" of Revelation is clearly described.

1. It is a place created by God to restrain Satan, demons, the un-holy trinity, death, and the bad side of Abraham's Bosom..."Hades".

2. It is a place of eternal separation from the TRI-UNE GOD's realm "HEAVEN" now and in the future: New Heavens and the New Earth and the New Jerusalem

3. At the Great White Throne Judgment, God SENTENCES UN-BELIEVERS whose names are NOT written in the Lamb's Book of Life to dwell therein.

Revelation 20:15 (NASB); SEE ALSO 21:8
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the (LAMB'S)"book of life" (believers),
he (un-believer) was thrown into the "lake of fire".

Revelation 20:10..the UNHOLY 3
And the "devil"(SATAN/DRAGON/SERPENT/fallen lucifer etc.) who deceived them
was thrown into the "lake of fire and brimstone", where the "beast" (anti-christ) and the "false prophet' (anti-spirit) are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20:14
Then "death" and "Hades" (CONCEPTS: not places) were thrown into the "lake of fire".
This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8 (NASB)
But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars (unsaved sinners), their part will be in the "lake that burns with fire and brimstone", which is the second death.”

Revelation 20:5
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.
This is the "first resurrection".
Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection;
over these the second death has no power,
but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

And there is no provision for the removal of the Spirits sentenced to reside there!!

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)

...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959

American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.

Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

Does ages of the ages have an end? Christ's reign is "to the ages of the ages":

And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15, YLT)

But His reign is "until" He gives up the Kingdom to the Father:

24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. (1 Corinthians 15)

So Christ's reign "to the ages of the ages" is not "forever and ever". Therefore the phrase "to the ages of the ages" can be understood of a limited time period that comes to an end. So those in the lake of fire are not punished there "for ever and ever" (Rev.20:10).

Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".

When Christ's reign ends (1 Cor.15 above), this will lead to God being "All in all" (v.28). IOW everyone will be saved, as all will be "in Christ" (v.22).

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

2 Cor.5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all is become new.

Chapter Five

Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?

"After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."

Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Three

ClementofA · Jun 24, 2017

WebersHome said:
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Rev 20:11-15 depicts capital punishment akin to a foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten iron. The resulting death is permanent because according to Dan 12:2 and John 5:28-29, there is only one resurrection allotted per person.

This means that people executed in the lake won't be coming back because they will have used up their one allotted resurrection to appear in court and face justice at the great white throne event.

/

I missed the part where it says there is only one resurrection allowed per person. What happened to Lazarus who Jesus raised from the dead? Did he go to heaven without dieing a second time?

The context supports the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), while v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM "and further".

2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."
(Dan.12:2-3, CLOT)

The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Daniel 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Daniel 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 should both be understood as being of finite duration.

Compare v.3:

l·oulm u·od
for·eon and·futurity

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan12.pdf

OJB Hashem shall reign l’olam va’ed.
Yahweh shall rule to the eon and beyond (Exo 15:18)
Universal Version Bible The Torah By William Petr

Habbukah 3:6:

JPS Tanakh 1917
He standeth, and shaketh the earth, He beholdeth, and maketh the nations to tremble; And the everlasting[olam] mountains are dashed in pieces, The ancient[olam] hills do bow; His goings are as of old[olam].

Young's Literal Translation
He hath stood, and He measureth earth, He hath seen, and He shaketh off nations, And scatter themselves do mountains of antiquity, Bowed have the hills of old, The ways of old are His.

CLV
He stands and is measuring the earth; he sees and is letting loose the nations. And the mountain ranges of futurity are scattering; the eonian hills bow down; his goings are eonian.

Daniel 12:2:

Young's Literal Translation
'And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life
age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during. (Dan.12:2)

Rotherham
and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-
abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence; (Dan.12:2)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

ClementofA · Jun 24, 2017

Ron Gurley said:
POST #26:" For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. "
POST #27: " God is the Savior of all men, especially (not exclusively) of believers. "

RESPONSE: out of context twisted snippets which are false doctrines of "Christian? UNIVERSALISM"

Mark 9:45...A METAPHOR!
If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell,

1 Timothy 4: 6-10 (NASB) Paul's Advice-A Good Minister’s Discipline
6 In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus,
constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following.
7 But have nothing to do with worldly fables fit only for old women. On the other hand, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness;
8 for bodily discipline is only of little profit, but godliness is profitable for all things,
since it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come.
9 It is a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance.
10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God,
who is the Savior of all men (who accept Him), especially of believers.

especially...Greek 3122...malista...1...chiefly, most of all, above all

"Christian Universalism" is the theological position that: ALL of mankind will ultimately be "saved" through Jesus, whether or not spirit-led FAITH / BELIEF leads to salvation in this life.
It claims that God's qualities require that ALL people be saved and that eternal punishment is a false doctrine.There is no distinction between those who ACCEPT God and REJECT God.
Salvation is not from "hell" and eternal spiritual separation / death, but Salvation is ONLY from sin.

That false doctrine is contrary to the very heart of orthodox Christ-following.

John 3: 17-18, 36
...For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world,
but that the world might be SAVED THROUGH Him.
He who BELIEVES in Him is not judged;
he who does not believe has been judged already,
because he has not BELIEVED in the name of the only begotten Son of God...
He who BELIEVES in the Son has eternal life;
but he who does not obey the Son will not see life,
but the wrath of God abides on him.”

A literal version reads:

John 3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him." (CLNT)

This means as long as the stubborn remain stubborn or unbelieving they will not see eonian life.

It does not mean that the unbeliever or stubborn cannot change and become a believer. If that were true, then no one could be saved, because we were all stubborn and unbelievers at one point.

It does not deny that all will eventually believe & have their sins taken away. On the contrary the same writer already wrote two chapters before:

1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

In chapter 4 he writes:

39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him,
they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.

42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

John 3:36 does not say a person can only believe in this life time. Or that God's love runs out when a person dies. Compare 1 Pet.3:18-20 + 4:6.

John 3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him." (CLNT)

The early church father, Origen, speaks of what is "after eonian life" (mistranslated in the KJV authorized by the gay King James, "eternal life"):

"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."

Ilaria Ramelli, <i>The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena</i> | Nemes | Journal of Analytic Theology

"Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

CrystalDragon · Jun 24, 2017

WebersHome said:
-
According to Jesus Christ's testimony as a credible expert witness in all matters pertaining to the afterlife; most of the world's responsible souls haven't been making it to safety when they cross over to the other side.

● Luke 13:22-24 . . And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. Then said one unto him, master, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them: Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

● Matt 7:13-14 . . Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

● Matt 22:14 . . For many are called, but few are chosen.

Webster's defines "many" as consisting of, or amounting to, a large but indefinite number; while "few" is defined as consisting of, or amounting to, only a small number; viz: relative to many then, few is the lesser. Bear with me while I flesh this out.

According to the US Census Bureau: as of June 19, 2017 @ 07:02 pm New York Time, the resident population in the United States was approximately 325,271,936 with a death rate of approximately one every 12 seconds; which translates to an average of 7,200 American deaths of all ages, races, and genders during just one 24-hour calendar day.

According to 2009 US Census data; roughly 27.3% of America's daily deaths are under the age of 19, which would indicate that approximately 5,234 of the current daily death rate per 24 hours are adults.

Giving the "many" the benefit of the doubt by limiting their maximum percentage to 51%, would indicate a minimum of 2,670 American adults transferring to perdition every day: which translates to roughly 111 per hour.

That's a very conservative estimate as Christ didn't really specify exact percentages to represent the quantities of "few" and "many". But just think: by the time CBS completes its half hour evening news report, a bare-bones minimum of 55 Americans become new arrivals in the fiery sector of the netherworld.

Using the ratio of 2,670 condemned souls per 325,271,936 population: computing the number of condemned souls worldwide from a currently estimated global population of 7,398,439,461 people, would suggest something like 60,730 new arrivals in the fiery sector of the netherworld every 24 hours; which translates to approximately 2,530 souls every sixty minutes on the clock.

That rate would fill the 51,800 seats of the new Yankee Stadium to capacity in roughly 20 hours and 28 minutes. In other words: if the world's daily number of condemned souls started filing into the stadium at 06:00 am this morning, then by 02:46 am tomorrow, the stadium would be full to capacity.

Christmas and New Year are even worse. A study done of 26 years of death certificates shows that coronary fatalities are, on average, 11.9% higher on those days than any other days of the year; with non-heart deaths spiking to 12.2% higher.

Christianity's hell never closes; no, not at all: it's open for business 24/7/365 nonstop and indifferent to global warming, Wall Street crashes, massive layoffs, outsourcing, high school shootings, terrorism, tsunamis, earthquakes, nuclear meltdowns, air, water, and soil pollution, freeway pile-ups, brown-outs, threatened species, the price of oil, student debt, GMO, trade deficits, protests, Federal debt, factory recalls, overpopulation, desertification, genocides, revolutions, civil wars, acid rain, road rage, oil spills, conscious decoupling, ISIS, LGBT marriage, Obamacare, blood diamonds, fracking, twerking, and/or President Donald Trump's wall.

If Christianity's perception of Jesus Christ and the hereafter is correct; then it's apparent that souls never stop cascading into the abyss in an endless procession like the unbelievable millions of poultry broilers passing annually through Tyson chicken-processing plants on their way to Wendy's, McDonalds, Carl's Junior, Jack in the Box, Burger King, Chic-fil-A, KFC, A&W, Arby's, Dairy Queen, Taco Bell, et al; and to supermarkets and restaurants all over the USA and wherever else Tyson vends its meats. The slaughtering and the butchering never stop.

/

Statistics like that make God seem malevolent and unjust.

WebersHome · Jun 24, 2017

-

ClementofA said:
What happened to Lazarus who Jesus raised from the dead? Did he go to heaven without dieing a second time?

Christ is spoken of as the first begotten from the dead (Rev 1:5). In other word: Lazarus' resurrection was a recovery, while Christ's resurrection was a transition. I'm pretty sure that the resurrections spoken of in Dan 12:2 and John 5:28-29 are transitions.

CrystalDragon said:
Statistics like that make God seem malevolent and unjust.

The wrath of God is interesting. For example:

● Isa 13:9 . . Behold, the day of Christ comes-- cruel; with both wrath and fierce anger

The Hebrew word for "wrath" in that statement is 'ebrah (eb-raw') which indicates an outburst of passion. In other words: the wrath of God won't be weeping big wet crocodile tears while it's slamming the dead at the Great White Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15; no, they will be terminated with extreme prejudice; viz: their judgment will be administered with choler. (cf. Isa 63:1-6, Rev 19:15)

Webster's defines "fierce" as a behavior exhibited by humans and animals that inspires terror because of the wild and menacing aspect of fury in attack. Ferocity is an aspect commonly seen among roaring, snarling lions savagely attacking prey. There's neither sportsmanship nor sympathy in ferocity; only sheer terror, brutality, and blood lust.

"cruel" is defined as: disposed to inflict pain or suffering; viz: devoid of humane feelings

● Heb 10:27 . . A certain fearful expectation of . . . fiery indignation

"fiery indignation" is quite a bit more severe than ordinary indignation. It speaks of someone who is seriously ticked off; and so angry that they're actually red in the face.

There are people out there in pews all around the world who have been so coddled by sappy versions of Christianity that they have no concept of the magnitude of the lethal tsunami of rage and violence coming their way to get them.

Another interesting aspect of the wrath of God is the person appointed to administer it-- none other than the sweet little baby away in a manger.

● John 5:22-23 . .The Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father.

● Acts 17:31 . . For God has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.

● Rev 19:15 . . He shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

You know all those horrors depicted in the book of Revelation? Jesus Christ has been designated to supervise every one of them.

● Rev 1:1 . .The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants.

/

ClementofA · Jun 24, 2017

WebersHome said:
-

There are people out there in pews all around the world who have been so coddled by sappy versions of Christianity that they have no concept of the magnitude of the lethal tsunami of rage and violence coming their way to get them.

Hebrews speaks of those who reject Christ as deserving a "sorer" punishment than death by Moses' law, i.e. stoning:

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would suffer endless torments in fire, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is a sadist for all eternity.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

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