Pretribbers, which pretrib "details" have proven true?

Adstar · Jun 24, 2017

JacksBratt said:
Stop and think for a second. In 2010 there were 2.2 billion Christians. If every one of them is on the earth during the tribulation, the rule of the antichrist, you can be sure that they will be full aware of the events and what is actually happening.

Then, even if only 1/2 of this mass of people got down on their knees and prayed and engaged the Holy Spirit, nothing would be able to be done on this earth to prevail against them.

I believe the Anti-christ will be a great deceiver and that most of the supposed Christians you talk of will consider the anti-christ to be the promised returned Lord Jesus.. Don't you know that He will claim to be God and his image will be worshiped... Who believes that Jesus is God and who believes Jesus should be worshiped.... That's right Christians... And how many Christians are well read in the Bible?? How many know the book of Revelations and the Book of Daniel by heart?? One percent of one percent.. Maybe... Most Christians are not Bible believing Christians and most Christians do not even understand the Atonement Of Jesus anyway.. Most supposed Christians are works salvation religionists that do not believe that they are saved by the gift of the atonement of Jesus... So the great deception i believe will be the anti-christ fooling millions into believing He is the Messiah.. And what Jesus said will come true again::

John 16: KJV
1 "These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. {2} They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service."

Biblewriter · Jun 24, 2017

JacksBratt said:
As far as I'm concerned, and I know you want to attach a pile of predictions to "pretribbers", and "pretribbers" only, for some reason....like they are the wacko's here, and came up with all these predictions that have not taken place, setting dates and deciphering all the scripture......

The fact that I am a Pre Tribulation believer means one thing and one thing only..............

I believe that the church will be removed before the tribulation.

Simple enough?

So, you can stop pasting sticky notes of "most pretribbers believe this" and "most pretribbers" believe that.....on all those who believe in the one plain and simple fact that is the one common thread that is common to us..... the removal of the church before the seven years of Gods wrath.... Period.

Enough with the finger pointing, name calling, belief assuming and cloaked condescension.

Actually, I am also a pretribber. So let's get that point cleared up first. I said that I was saddened by the irresponsible wah may pretribbers had treated the scriptures, because that detracts from the truth of what I teach. But if you go back and look, you will see that I also stated that my real complaint with them was that they had t=reated the scriptures as irresponsibly as others do.

I have devoted well over fifty years to the study of the scriptures, and the bulk of that has been in regard to the prophetic scriptures. I have also devoted literally decades to the study of ancient history, including about ten yeas specifically devoted to the study of the histories of the development of various doctrines. So I speak assuredly when I speak of these things, for I am not stating ideas I picked up from some modern writer, but conclusions I have personally reached fro an actual study of original sources. That is, I have not studied ABOUT the histories of peoples and ideas, but have rather actually studied what these people wrote.

Adstar · Jun 24, 2017

JacksBratt said:
Secondly, if the antichrist enacted the law of taking the mark of the beast, Now you have 2.2 billion, or more, people who can not buy, sell, work, travel, or function in society in any way.

And you don't think the Anti-christ is well able to use scriptures which is symbolized by the modern church to get people to take the Mark of the beast while thinking they are actually receiving the seal of God in their foreheads ???

Revelation 7: KJV
2 "And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, {3} Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

You can be assured the anti- christ will tell Christians that the mark of the beast is the Seal of God that they are receiving in their foreheads..

Biblewriter · Jun 24, 2017

Adstar said:
I believe the Anti-christ will be a great deceiver and that most of the supposed Christians you talk of will consider the anti-christ to be the promised returned Lord Jesus.. Don't you know that He will claim to be God and his image will be worshiped... Who believes that Jesus is God and who believes Jesus should be worshiped.... That's right Christians... And how many Christians are well read in the Bible?? How many know the book of Revelations and the Book of Daniel by heart?? One percent of one percent.. Maybe... Most Christians are not Bible believing Christians and most Christians do not even understand the Atonement Of Jesus anyway.. Most supposed Christians are works salvation religionists that do not believe that they are saved by the gift of the atonement of Jesus... So the great deception i believe will be the anti-christ fooling millions into believing He is the Messiah.. And what Jesus said will come true again::

John 16: KJV
1 "These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. {2} They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service."

Sadly, even most people who talk about these things have studied only a small fraction of what God has said is coming. They are reaching conclusions based on a very small fraction of the prophetic word, while being themselves ignorant of most of what God has said is coming.

Many study The Revelation, Daniel, and a few passages in the gospels and the epistles, and maybe Zechariah, and imagine that they are "experts" in Bible prophecy, while being almost totally ignorant of most of the end time prophecies that came through Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, David, and the minor prophets.

And not one in a thousand of them can tell you what end time human is the subject of more Bible prophecy than any other, by a wide margin.

Original Happy Camper · Jun 24, 2017

Douggg said:
Especially when historicists can't nail down when the 1260 years, in their view started, by an over 40 years spread on opinion, nor what even started the 1260 years.

Adstar · Jun 24, 2017

JacksBratt said:
Think of a new Christian. Young, 23 years old, just out of school, new job in an office, sick of the rat race, coming to the church, accepting savior presented as the personification of love. On fire for Christ and on a new road.... then the question... Do you believe Christ is the lord of this world? As they kneel with a blade above their head??? This is your loving God? This is your Savior?

Think of the tens of thousands of Christians who died in the first centuries in the cruel entertainment in Colosseum's of the roman empire .. How they where slaughtered in the most cruel ways for the entertainment of the roman unbelievers.. Some being eaten by lions and other wild beasts for sport.. Was Jesus their Savior? Yes you can be assured He is.. And the Christians who where burned to death at the steak by the inquisitors in the dark ages, was Jesus their Savior also? Yes indeed He was and is.. And the Christians in the present time in Syria and Iraq who where machined gunned into ditches or slowly had their heads hacked of by devout muslim jihadists,is Jesus their Savior??? Yes indeed He is...

Your argument comes from human thinking.. But history time and time again reveals that your human thinking is faulty.. Jesus said::

John 16:KJV
33 "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

Yes in this world we shall have tribulation...

Douggg · Jun 24, 2017

Original Happy Camper said:

On your chart, original happy camper, where is the transgression of desolation (Daniel 8:13)?

Yahchristian · Jun 24, 2017

Douggg said:
historicists can't nail down when the 1260 years, in their view started, by an over 40 years spread on opinion, nor what even started the 1260 years.

The precise beginning and ending dates for many Bible prophecies are difficult to discern.

For example, Bible scholars give several different starting and ending dates for the "seventy years" prophecy in Jeremiah 25:12. It is easy to see that the Babylonian captivity was about 70 years long, so we know the Bible is true. But since the captivity and freeing occurred in stages, we cannot be positive which specific beginning and ending dates God used.

Jeremiah 25:12... And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.

The beginning date for the 1,260 year prophecy is another prophecy that is difficult to discern the specific starting date. We will have a better idea when the prophecy has been fulfilled.

Yahchristian · Jun 24, 2017

Original Happy Camper said:

One problem with the Seventh Day Adventist view of prophecy is...

Seventh Day Adventists believe "confirm the covenant" means "NOT share the gospel".

In other words, where the Bible says... And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week.

Seventh Day Adventists think it means... And he shall NOT share the gospel with many for one week.

I think it means... And he shall confirm the Old Covenant with many for one week, because the Old Covenant would only last another seven years.

If the SDA view is correct, the Bible should have said... And he shall NOT confirm the covenant with many for one week.

Biblewriter · Jun 24, 2017

Yahchristian said:
The beginning date for the 1,260 year prophecy is another prophecy that is difficult to discern the specific starting date. We will have a better idea when the prophecy has been fulfilled.

There is no 1260 year prophecy in the Bible. This exists purely in the minds of people who have decided to interpret a day to mean a year.

Original Happy Camper · Jun 24, 2017

Douggg said:
On your chart, original happy camper, where is the transgression of desolation (Daniel 8:13)?

next verse answers your question
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
See the top of the chart

transgression of desolation = pagan and papal systems of false religion in conflict with the religion of GOD.

Original Happy Camper · Jun 24, 2017

Yahchristian said:
One problem with the Seventh Day Adventist view of prophecy is...

Seventh Day Adventists believe "confirm the covenant" means "NOT share the gospel".

In other words, where the Bible says... And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week.

Seventh Day Adventists think it means... And he shall NOT share the gospel with many for one week.

I think it means... And he shall confirm the Old Covenant with many for one week, because the Old Covenant would only last another seven years.

If the SDA view is correct, the Bible should have said... And he shall NOT confirm the covenant with many for one week.

You need to research what SDA believe before you regurgitate what you hear.

Douggg · Jun 24, 2017

Original Happy Camper said:
next verse answers your question
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
See the top of the chart

transgression of desolation = pagan and papal systems of false religion in conflict with the religion of GOD.

The little horn is the one who commits the transgression of desolation.
Who is the little horn in your scenario for the pagan system, that preceded the papal system?

Yahchristian · Jun 24, 2017

Biblewriter said:
There is no 1260 year prophecy in the Bible. This exists purely in the minds of people who have decided to interpret a day to mean a year.

The vast majority of Christians believe a prophetic "week" is equivalent to 7 years.

Douggg · Jun 24, 2017

Biblewriter said:
There is no 1260 year prophecy in the Bible. This exists purely in the minds of people who have decided to interpret a day to mean a year.

Yes, but it seems to escape them who hold that position, the two witnesses' bodies will lay dead in the streets of Jerusalem 3 1/2 days after their 1260 days of testimony - which the 3 1/2 days to be consistent with their 1260 years interpretation would likewise have to be 3 1/2 years - which is irrational.
:doh:

Douggg · Jun 24, 2017

Yahchristian said:
For example, Bible scholars give several different starting and ending dates for the "seventy years" prophecy in Jeremiah 25:12. It is easy to see that the Babylonian captivity was about 70 years long, so we know the Bible is true. But since the captivity and freeing occurred in stages, we cannot be positive which specific beginning and ending dates God used.

It appears that historicists are unable to harmonize the 1260 years (in their view) with their scenario is what it all boils down to. Neither by specific event, nor by year of the event.

When it gets to specifics, that's when the erroneous scenarios, not just the historicist scenario, start falling apart.

Douggg · Jun 24, 2017

Yahchristian said:
The vast majority of Christians believe a prophetic "week" is equivalent to 7 years.

Where are you finding a "prophetic" week" expressed as a week in the bible, other than Daniel 9:27 ?

Daniel 7, Daniel 8, Daniel 12 gives days, not weeks. In Revelation, it is days, months - but not weeks

Biblewriter · Jun 24, 2017

Yahchristian said:
The vast majority of Christians believe a prophetic "week" is equivalent to 7 years.

This is indeed true, but this is not based on the one day equals one year theory, but on the fact that the Hebrew word "shebuah," which is translated "week" in Daniel 9, only means a "seven." In the Old Testament, this term is used both of periods of seven days and of seven years.

Also, although the exact dates are unknown, it was indeed at the very least approximately 483 years ( sixty-nine sets of seven years) from the going forth of the order to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah came.

Biblewriter · Jun 24, 2017

Douggg said:
Where are you finding a "prophetic" week" expressed as a week in the bible, other than Daniel 9:27 ?

Daniel 7, Daniel 8, Daniel 12 gives days, not weeks. In Revelation, it is days, months - but not weeks

And when the "weeks" of Daniel 9 are interpreted as periods of seven years, all these various dating systems fit together precisely. For a Jewish "year" consisted of twelve months of thirty days each.

jgr · Jun 24, 2017

Biblewriter said:
There is no 1260 year prophecy in the Bible. This exists purely in the minds of people who have decided to interpret a day to mean a year.

Such as Christ?

Luke 13
31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.
32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

Pretribbers, which pretrib "details" have proven true?

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