Eternal Torment, Annihilation or Universal Reconciliation?

Which one do you believe will happen at the final punishment?

  • Eternal Torment

    Votes: 33 42.3%
  • Annihilation

    Votes: 16 20.5%
  • Universal Reconciliation

    Votes: 10 12.8%
  • Probably annihilation but still hopeful of universal reconciliation

    Votes: 5 6.4%
  • Not sure

    Votes: 10 12.8%
  • Other

    Votes: 4 5.1%

  • Total voters
    78

Butch5

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According to Der Alter, based on info from the circa 1900 Jewish Encyclopedia:

That's another fallacy. The idea that because Jesus didn't contradict something it must be true. It's an argument from silence. Firstly, we don't know if He did or not because His every word wasn't recorded. We simply don't have a writing of Him doing so. However, even if He didn't contradict them it doesn't mean He validated them.
 
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Der Alte

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You do realize these sources you quote aren't infallible don't you?
Using Hades and Gehenna interchangeably would go a long way in explaining how this erroneius understanding of the parable came about. They are two completely different places.

That's part of the problem. Just because something has been around for 1700 years doesn't make it true.

Instead of all this extraneous verbiage what you should be doing here is providing credible, verifiable, historical evidence supporting your position and refuting mine.
The theory of Evolution has been around for hundreds of years, that doesn't make it true. Having something believed by scholars evaluated by said scholars doesn't necessitate that it is true either. Having a majority belief doesn't make something true. As I've pointed out several times now. The majority of Christians believe they go to Heaven when they die. That doesn't make it true. However, following something that you can't prove is true is blindly following. It's easy enough to check. All we have to do is look at the Scriptures. We see that the ECF''s on this subject contradict the apostle Paul, therefore they are wrong.
Mostly irrelevant. That some long held theory or other has been proven to be false proves nothing about any other theory.
All of the ECF I quoted contradict the apostle Paul? Prove it?

It's easy to verify whether the the parable is lateral or not. All we have to do is read it. It has dead people talking. Dead people can't talk, thus it is a parable.
Matthew 17:1-3
(1) And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
(2) And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
(3) And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
And then we have these accounts in the OT where the dead in sheol move, speak etc.
Isaiah 14:9-11, Ezekiel 32:20-21, Eze 32:30-31
(
 
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Der Alte

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That's another fallacy. The idea that because Jesus didn't contradict something it must be true. It's an argument from silence. Firstly, we don't know if He did or not because His every word wasn't recorded. We simply don't have a writing of Him doing so. However, even if He didn't contradict them it doesn't mean He validated them.
If you haven't actually read my post don't criticize it.
 
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ClementofA

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That's another fallacy. The idea that because Jesus didn't contradict something it must be true. It's an argument from silence. Firstly, we don't know if He did or not because His every word wasn't recorded. We simply don't have a writing of Him doing so. However, even if He didn't contradict them it doesn't mean He validated them.

True. And He clearly did contradict the Pharisees beliefs in a number of ways.
 
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Butch5

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Instead of all this extraneous verbiage what you should be doing here is providing credible, verifiable, historical evidence supporting your position and refuting mine.


The way it works is that the one who make the claim has the onus to prove the claim. Since you're claiming the ECF''s are correct the onus is on you to prove that they are.


Mostly irrelevant. That some long held theory or other has been proven to be false proves nothing about any other theory.
All of the ECF I quoted contradict the apostle Paul? Prove it?

What it does prove is that a lot of people can believe things that are wrong. Thus a lot of Christians can wrongly believe that the patable is an actual account.


Matthew 17:1-3
(1) And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
(2) And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
(3) And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
And then we have these accounts in the OT where the dead in sheol move, speak etc.
Isaiah 14:9-11, Ezekiel 32:20-21, Eze 32:30-31

You stopped to soon. If you continue reading youll see that Mathew records that it was a vision. So, they didn't actually see dead people talking. Likewise you other account areby literal, they figurative which can be seen from the context. We all know that dead people can't talk.
 
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Butch5

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True. And He clearly did contradict the Pharisees beliefs in a number of ways.

I agree. I used to believe that the parable was about what happened when people die too. I was challenged to set aside my preconceptions and look closely at this subject and saw that it really isn't about an afterlife.
 
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Butch5

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If you haven't actually read my post don't criticize it.

I read what was in the post I responded to. Now that I'm at my computer I can show you where the ECF's contradict Paul. Paul said to the Corinthians,

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (1 Cor. 15:12-18 KJV)

According to Paul if there is no resurrection those who had died in Christ had perished. He didn't say they were in Abraham's bosom. He didn't say they were in Heaven. He didn't say they were with the Lord. He said they had perished. That's the same thing the OT prophets said. It's the same thing David, who was a prophet said.

3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.1
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (Ps. 146:3-4 KJV)
 
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rjs330

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I didn't say it is a parable & have already responded to your comment above:

In any case, the duration, nature & purpose of the torments the rich man was suffering are not revealed in this story. His torments there could have lasted less than 5 minutes.

"If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in the nether-world (Sheol/Hades/hell), behold, Thou art there." (Psalm 139:8)

We are told the rich man requested water. He seemed to think a few drops of water would ease his sufferings. Apparently this isn't served in "hell" (Hades), but whether or not alcohol & morphine is on the menu is not revealed. After all, God is omnipresent.

Luke 16:27-28 seems to show the rich man's concern for others. Perhaps he was beginning to have a change of heart. Supposedly that is the purpose of those in Hades recieving the word of the Lord, in this case via Abraham.

So does this story do more harm than good for the endless tormenting god position, even if taken literally?

Your version quoted speaks of a great gulf fixed stopping the transfer of persons from one place to the other place. It does not say this gulf will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Possibly the chasm barrier refers to the unrepentant state of those in Hades, & that once they repent the barrier stopping any individual from leaving is removed. Nor does the passage deny the possibility of salvation to the rich man in Hades while he remains there.

According to the Jews (Pharisees) you love to quote thinking it supports your views, many of the wicked who descend to Gehenna/hell will come up again. Does this passage disprove what the Jews said? Or do you still say that Jesus never contradicted their beliefs?

Any proof that the story of the rich man & Lazarus disproves universalism is absent from your post.

They get out of "hell" (Luke 16:19-31) in Revelation 20:11-15, if not sooner.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

That is an awful lot of supposition. I guess we could suppose everything in scripture. It's kind of like the the what if arguments that could go on and on.

How about we don't do that. How about we just take the facts as presented. How about we don't what if this to death. It is up to you to prove your suppositions. There is no evidence in the story that any of what you suppose might happen. It simply states what is. And what "is" supports that there is no way out of the place. In fact the person in the story doesn't want people to go there. If there is a way out why would he care so.much? He's going to get out sooner or later. It's just supposition with no evidence.
 
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rjs330

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The Eternal Conscious Torment doctrine is not a Scriptural one. It is derived by taking a few select passages out of context. It also presupposes the "Immortal Soul" doctrine which likewise isn't Biblical

Actually it's the opposite. The ECT is supported far more than Universalist doctrine. The Universal doctrine completely ignores context too often and fails to account for the EtC. Whereas ETC fully embraces the scriptures Universalists like and ties them into the salvation doctrine as a whole. Universalism has to try and explain away the ETC doctrine cause it cannot fit the cause.
 
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ClementofA

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That is an awful lot of supposition. I guess we could suppose everything in scripture. It's kind of like the the what if arguments that could go on and on.

How about we don't do that. How about we just take the facts as presented. How about we don't what if this to death. It is up to you to prove your suppositions. There is no evidence in the story that any of what you suppose might happen. It simply states what is. And what "is" supports that there is no way out of the place. In fact the person in the story doesn't want people to go there. If there is a way out why would he care so.much? He's going to get out sooner or later. It's just supposition with no evidence.

The points i made are to counter the "suppositions" made by antiuniversalists who typically read their doctrinal suppositions into texts which don't say what their suppositions say.

1 Cor. 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Every man's work...shall be revealed by fire; v.13
the fire shall try every man's work v.13
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss v.15
but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. v.15

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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Butch5

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Actually it's the opposite. The ECT is supported far more than Universalist doctrine. The Universal doctrine completely ignores context too often and fails to account for the EtC. Whereas ETC fully embraces the scriptures Universalists like and ties them into the salvation doctrine as a whole. Universalism has to try and explain away the ETC doctrine cause it cannot fit the cause.

It's not the opposite. The ECT doctrine isn't Scriptural. I didn't address Universalism
 
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Der Alte

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The way it works is that the one who make the claim has the onus to prove the claim. Since you're claiming the ECF''s are correct the onus is on you to prove that they are.
I think that might generally be true but I don't think that applies to scholastically accepted historical writings. It is very unlikely if I were to quote the ECF in a college that a professor would ask me to prove it is true. But you are free to continue this specious argument. Do you believe the Bible is true?
What it does prove is that a lot of people can believe things that are wrong. Thus a lot of Christians can wrongly believe that the patable is an actual account.
And likewise thus a lot of Christians can wrongly believe that the story of Lazarus and the rich man was not factual.
You stopped to soon. If you continue reading youll see that Mathew records that it was a vision. So, they didn't actually see dead people talking. Likewise you other account areby literal, they figurative which can be seen from the context. We all know that dead people can't talk.
Maybe. The word translated vision in Matt. is ὅραμα/orama which does not necessarily mean an ecstatic vision as we generally understand the word vs. an actual event. I have heard actual things and persons referred to as "a vision."

Matthew 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision [ὅραμα] to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
ὅραμα horama
Thayer Definition:
1) that which is seen, spectacle
2) a sight divinely granted in an ecstasy or in a sleep, a vision
Matthew17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
Here from the OT.
Exodus 3:2-3
(2) And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
(3) And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight,[מראה] why the bush is not burnt.

מראה mar'eh
BDB Definition:
1) sight, appearance, vision
1a) sight, phenomenon, spectacle, appearance, vision
1b) what is seen
1c) a vision (supernatural)
1d) sight, vision (power of seeing)
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H7200
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2095i
 
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Der Alte

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The points i made are to counter the "suppositions" made by antiuniversalists who typically read their doctrinal suppositions into texts which don't say what their suppositions say.
1 Cor. 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Every man's work...shall be revealed by fire; v.13
the fire shall try every man's work v.13
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss v.15
but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. v.1
5
You make the claim that "antiuniversalists who typically read their doctrinal suppositions into texts which don't say what their suppositions say" which is exactly what you and others here are doing with 1 Corinthians 3:9-17. You ignore the context Paul is talking to Christians at Corinth "labourers together with God: God's husbandry, God's building" not all mankind. You need to find a proof text which clearly refers to all mankind and not a certain group.
Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel
.
John 3:17-18
(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Matthew 7:22-23
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
 
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Butch5

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I think that might generally be true but I don't think that applies to scholastically accepted historical writings. It is very unlikely if I were to quote the ECF in a college that a professor would ask me to prove it is true. But you are free to continue this specious argument. Do you believe the Bible is true?


It applies to anything. You made the claim the onus is on you to prove it. You've given me no reason to accept that the parable is literal other than your belief that the ECF's are correct on this subject. As I've pointed out, that many believe it doesn't mean it's true.


And likewise thus a lot of Christians can wrongly believe that the story of Lazarus and the rich man was not factual.

I agree. That's why we need evidence and not beliefs.


Maybe. The word translated vision in Matt. is ὅραμα/orama which does not necessarily mean an ecstatic vision as we generally understand the word vs. an actual event. I have heard actual things and persons referred to as "a vision."
Matthew 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision [ὅραμα] to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
ὅραμα horama
Thayer Definition:
1) that which is seen, spectacle
2) a sight divinely granted in an ecstasy or in a sleep, a vision
Matthew17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
Here from the OT.
Exodus 3:2-3
(2) And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
(3) And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight,[מראה] why the bush is not burnt.

מראה mar'eh
BDB Definition:
1) sight, appearance, vision
1a) sight, phenomenon, spectacle, appearance, vision
1b) what is seen
1c) a vision (supernatural)
1d) sight, vision (power of seeing)
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H7200
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2095i

Well, If it can mean an ecstatic vision then your argument falls apart. However, that we know it was a vision can be seen from the events. In the vision, Moses and Elijah appear with Jesus in Glory. Glory is a reference to the resurrection. If this was a real event it would mean that Moses and Elijah were resurrected before Jesus died. Yet Paul said that Christ is the firstborn from the dead.
 
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Der Alte

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I read what was in the post I responded to. Now that I'm at my computer I can show you where the ECF's contradict Paul. Paul said to the Corinthians,
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (1 Cor. 15:12-18 KJV)

According to Paul if there is no resurrection those who had died in Christ had perished. He didn't say they were in Abraham's bosom. He didn't say they were in Heaven. He didn't say they were with the Lord. He said they had perished. That's the same thing the OT prophets said. It's the same thing David, who was a prophet said.
Even as you try to explain the passage it is a conditional statement which is only true if a certain condition is met. In this passage that condition is
"if there be no resurrection of the dead, ...if Christ be not raised, ...Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished."

3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.1
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (Ps. 146:3-4 KJV
)
Then we have verses like this.
Isaiah 14:9-10
(9) Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
(10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
Ezekiel 32:20-21
(20)They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
(21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
Ezekiel 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
The Jews understood Isa 14:9-11 to be factual.
Jewish Encyclopedia-Gehenna
When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]][/color] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them[/color] (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10

:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
 
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Der Alte

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It applies to anything. You made the claim the onus is on you to prove it. You've given me no reason to accept that the parable is literal other than your belief that the ECF's are correct on this subject. As I've pointed out, that many believe it doesn't mean it's true.
Irrelevant! I have already addressed this. Move on.
I agree. That's why we need evidence and not beliefs.
Good let me know when you can provide evidence that Luk 16:19-31 is a parable. Evidence, not arguments.
Well, If it can mean an ecstatic vision then your argument falls apart. However, that we know it was a vision can be seen from the events. In the vision, Moses and Elijah appear with Jesus in Glory. Glory is a reference to the resurrection. If this was a real event it would mean that Moses and Elijah were resurrected before Jesus died. Yet Paul said that Christ is the firstborn from the dead
Wrong! Interesting argument but the word "glory" does not occur in Matt 17:1-9.
 
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Butch5

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Even as you try to explain the passage it is a conditional statement which is only true if a certain condition is met. In this passage that condition is
"if there be no resurrection of the dead, ...if Christ be not raised, ...Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished."


Yes it's conditional. The only hope for those who have died in Christ is resurrection. Apart from that they have perished. That flatly refutes your statements from the ECF's.


Then we have verses like this.
Isaiah 14:9-10
(9) Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
(10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
Ezekiel 32:20-21
(20)They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
(21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
Ezekiel 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the L
ord GOD.
The Jews understood Isa 14:9-11 to be factual.
Jewish Encyclopedia-Gehenna
When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]][/color] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them[/color] (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10

:Jewish Encyclopedia Online

You posted this is response to what David said. Does this counteract what David said? Does it nullify what David said? Of course not. What you've posted here is figurative language. We've discussed this passage before. For instance, the passage from Isaiah 14, we know that dead people can't talk so we know that it's figurative. However, even more so we know that trees can't talk. You didn't post verses 7 and 8

7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.1
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
(Isa. 14:7-11 KJV)

Trees can't talk. That tells us that the passage is figurative. Likewise, the dead can't talk so we know it's figurative.
 
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Butch5

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Irrelevant! I have already addressed this. Move on.


It's not irrelevant. I reject your claim that they are right until proven wrong.


Good let me know when you can provide evidence that Luk 16:19-31 is a parable. Evidence, not arguments.

I have. Dead people can't talk. Why haven't you answered the questions regarding this? Why is it Abraham's bosom and not Moses or David? Why is the beggar named Lazarus and not John or Peter? Why does he wear purple and fine linen? Why does he have 5 brothers? Why is the rich man in Hades rather than Gehenna? Jesus gives all of these details for a reason. In your interpretation, these details have no importance. However, they are crucial to understanding the parable.


Wrong! Interesting argument but the word "glory" does not occur in Matt 17:1-9.

It's not wrong read another account.

29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.
33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen. (Lk. 9:29-36 KJV)

We also know it was a vision because Peter calls it the coming of the Lord which obviously didn't have before He was crucified.

16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: (2 Pet. 1:16-19 KJV)
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
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Yes it's conditional. The only hope for those who have died in Christ is resurrection. Apart from that they have perished. That flatly refutes your statements from the ECF's.
Another specious argument. Already addressed. The statement is true only if there is no resurrection. If there is no resurrection there is no hope everybody perishes.
You posted this is response to what David said. Does this counteract what David said? Does it nullify what David said? Of course not. What you've posted here is figurative language. We've discussed this passage before. For instance, the passage from Isaiah 14, we know that dead people can't talk so we know that it's figurative. However, even more so we know that trees can't talk. You didn't post verses 7 and 8
7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.1
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
(Isa. 14:7-11 KJV)
Trees can't talk. That tells us that the passage is figurative. Likewise, the dead can't talk so we know it's figurative.
I have already addressed these arguments in my Link:[post #248]. One figure of speech in a passage does not make the entire passage figurative. There was a king of Babylon, he did die, he was buried. As I have proved the Jews considered that passage factual. If you wnat to argue with them be my guest.
 
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