Pretribbers, which pretrib "details" have proven true?

SeventyOne · Jun 23, 2017

Yahchristian said:
Pretribbers normally claim that the 69th week ended precisely on the day Jesus rode into Jerusalem.

Are you saying that you don't think the 70th week ends precisely when Jesus returns in Revelation 19:14?

(Note: If the 70th week ends in Revelation 19:14, that would mean Revelation 19:15 onward occurs after the 70th week.)

Revelation 19:14... And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Why would it matter what I think concerning the precise day? Revelation 19:11-21 describes final events right up against the end of that period, but it doesn't say (that I'm aware of) in how many days that all takes place. Is it a single day or is it a span of multiple days? I don't know, and to be honest, I don't care. Either is fine with me.

Blade · Jun 23, 2017

Yeah.. not sure what or why your asking this. In 300-400bc a preacher that also wrote hymns talked about "Caught up".. then more scrolls before that. It is not written PRE MID nor POST.

Not really sure what your trying to do here. A preacher that also wrote hymns talked about "caught up" before the great tribulation. This was in about 300-400ad. Then even more scrolls were found. We are one body. Jesus left said He would come again. This is fact.. its written. So if one is not looking not ready.. NOW.. you will get just what you believe. Jesus will always becoming now.. so I live as if NOW is the day.. I was never promised tomorrow.

We were promised we will never ever see His wrath that comes on this world. Lot is as Jesus said.. a example. As long as you are still here I can do NOTHING..is what GOD said to Lot. Lot HAD to be gone.

Now Satan is not out in the open doing lying wonders. He cant as long as we are here. Jesus said.. behold I give you powe.......and over all the power of the enemy and nothing shall by any means hurt you. He also said greater is He that is in you then he thats in the world. So there is no demon no fallen angel that can ever stand against the Church. Yet.. SOMETHING has to be taken out of the way.. THEN and only THEN will the lawless one be known. And I know my Father will not let Satan have more power then HE that is in me or HIS word if void. And my Father will not take Jesus out of me.. nor His sweet sweet Holy Spirit...

One should know this. Who HE is and who you are. Jesus said I will go and come back and get you. THAT is your promise. That is your hope.. you live as if this moment is the moment JESUS WILL COME! You will never miss Him. But.. if you believe it wont happen.. if you doubt.. that is what you will get.. He will not go against your will. Just take JESUS at his word. HE is coming to get you..

And I dont want to be apart in finding fault error in others that I may simply disagree with

Douggg · Jun 23, 2017

Yahchristian said:
Are you saying that you don't think the 70th week ends precisely when Jesus returns in Revelation 19:14?

(Note: If the 70th week ends in Revelation 19:14, that would mean Revelation 19:15 onward occurs after the 70th week.)

Revelation 19:14... And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Jesus returns the last day of the 7 years. Revelation 19:11 through Revelation 20:3 take place on that same day.

Douggg · Jun 23, 2017

Yahchristian said:
Pretribbers normally claim that the 69th week ended precisely on the day Jesus rode into Jerusalem.

No, I think what is being said is that it is not 69.5 weeks (69 weeks + 3 1/2 years) that the messiah is cutoff.

There was 4 days separation between when Jesus rode into Jerusalem and him being cutoff, crucified.

Yahchristian · Jun 23, 2017

Douggg said:
No, I think what is being said is that it is not 69.5 weeks (69 weeks + 3 1/2 years) that the messiah is cutoff.

There was 4 days separation between when Jesus rode into Jerusalem and him being cutoff, crucified.

I am surprised that you do not know this. But Pretribbers actually believe...

That day, on which the sixty-nine weeks ended, was the fateful day on which the Lord Jesus rode into Jerusalem in fulfillment of the prophecy of Zechariah 9:9; when, for the first and only occasion in all His earthly sojourn, He was acclaimed as "Messiah the Prince the King, the Son of David." (The Coming Prince, page 95)

The Coming Prince, by Sir Robert Anderson, is by far the most popular Pretribber book on the timing of the Seventy Weeks. And just about every other Pretribber author quotes his book.

I disagree with his findings because it is easy to prove him wrong mathematically, but you should read it if you claim to be a Pretribber.

BABerean2 · Jun 24, 2017

Yahchristian said:
I am surprised that you do not know this. But Pretribbers actually believe...

That day, on which the sixty-nine weeks ended, was the fateful day on which the Lord Jesus rode into Jerusalem in fulfillment of the prophecy of Zechariah 9:9; when, for the first and only occasion in all His earthly sojourn, He was acclaimed as "Messiah the Prince the King, the Son of David." (The Coming Prince, page 95)

The Coming Prince, by Sir Robert Anderson, is by far the most popular Pretribulationist book on the timing of the Seventy Weeks. And just about every other Pretribulationist author quotes his book.

I disagree with his findings because it is easy to prove him wrong mathematically, but you should read it if you claim to be a Pretribulationist.

Anderson admits in the book that the Israelites made periodic corrections to the calendar and then he proceeds to ignore this fact for the rest of the book.

Many do not know that Anderson was C.I. Scofield's friend.
Therefore, he is not an unbiased source of information.

.

.

Biblewriter · Jun 24, 2017

Douggg said:
No, I think what is being said is that it is not 69.5 weeks (69 weeks + 3 1/2 years) that the messiah is cutoff.

There was 4 days separation between when Jesus rode into Jerusalem and him being cutoff, crucified.

There is a difference of opinion on this detail. I am very hesitant about making claims abut exact timing, for I have almost zero confidence in alleged dates for ancient events. For I spent literally decades studying ancient historical documents, and have found close to zero agreement between them about exactly when certain events took place.

Biblewriter · Jun 24, 2017

Yahchristian said:
I am surprised that you do not know this. But Pretribbers actually believe...

That day, on which the sixty-nine weeks ended, was the fateful day on which the Lord Jesus rode into Jerusalem in fulfillment of the prophecy of Zechariah 9:9; when, for the first and only occasion in all His earthly sojourn, He was acclaimed as "Messiah the Prince the King, the Son of David." (The Coming Prince, page 95)

The Coming Prince, by Sir Robert Anderson, is by far the most popular Pretribber book on the timing of the Seventy Weeks. And just about every other Pretribber author quotes his book.

I disagree with his findings because it is easy to prove him wrong mathematically, but you should read it if you claim to be a Pretribber.

This is actually not correct. Many pre-tribbers quote this book, but many others do not.

In my book I refer to Anderson's book, although not by name, and observe that its claims are based upon assumptions which I am not prepared to make.

Biblewriter · Jun 24, 2017

BABerean2 said:
Anderson admits in the book that the Israelites made periodic corrections to the calendar and then he proceeds to ignore this fact for the rest of the book.

Many do not know that Anderson was C.I. Scofield's friend.
Therefore, he is not an unbiased source of information.

.

.

...as if that had any bearing on the subject whatsoever.

Adstar · Jun 24, 2017

I have been a rapture believer for years.. But i am not a pre-tribulation rapture believer.. I believe the rapture will happen at the last trumpet and that is the trumpet that sounds when Jesus returns.. So the rapture will happen on the Day of the return of Jesus..

Pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is an escapist doctrine that has a lot of support because people want to avoid persecution.. Better to be ready for persecution then to be in denial and totally unprepared in your mind for persecution when it comes..

A person expecting persecution does not have their faith tested when it comes..

Biblewriter · Jun 24, 2017

BABerean2 said:
Many of us seem to be unaware of the original teachings that John Nelson Darby brought to America about the time of the Civil War that were later incorporated into the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible, which was produced with the help of leading Zionist Samuel Untermeyer.

Darby and Scofield taught that the "Church Age" or the "Age of Grace" would come to an end 7 years before the Second Coming of Christ. They claimed that during this time God would deal with modern Israelites under the Old Covenant system. Forum member "Iamlamad" made reference to this during the last week or so.

They claim it to be the "time of Jacob's trouble" from the Book of Jeremiah, even though Jeremiah was writing during the time Israel was going to and in the captivity in Babylon.

They have added an antichrist not found in Daniel 9, and have added a "gap" of time not mentioned by the angel Gabriel in order to disconnect the 70th week from the other 69. They must ignore the fulfillment of Daniel 9:24, found in Acts 10:38 and Hebrews 10:16-18.
They must also ignore the fact that Christ is the New Covenant Messiah, who spoke of the New Covenant with the many in Matthew 26:28.

This whole system of interpretation hinges on ignorance. I am not speaking of ignorance in not knowing a thing. I am speaking of ignoring the scripture which destroys a doctrine. All false systems of interpretation are not revealed by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but rather by the scripture they must ignore to make it work. The pretrib rapture doctrine is a prime example.

The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13. The Hebrews passage contains the exact text from Jeremiah 31 and it is bracketed at the beginning and the end with verses making it clear that this was fulfilled during the first century. In Hebrews 12:22-24 and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8 we find the New Covenant specifically applied to the Church.

In Hebrews 8:13 we find that the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete".
Therefore, God is not going back to an "obsolete" covenant during a future time as the pretribbers claim.

In Hebrews 13:20 we find that the New Covenant is "everlasting".
Therefore, the "Age of Grace" does not come to an end, as many pretribbers claim.
This is confirmed by those under the Blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11, since a person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be under the Grace of the New Covenant.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant of Christ and the passages of scripture that must be ignored to make the pretrib doctrine work, the whole pretrib system of interpretation collapses like a house of cards.

.

And you well know that neither Darby nor Scofield originated any of these doctrines, for I have repeatedly posted the proof of this, and you responded to these posts, proving that you know about the proof.

Many of the concepts taught by modern Dispensationalists were taught in the early centuries of the church, including a future fulfillment of the seventieth week of Daniel's prophecy a rapture before the great tribulation, the restoration of the Jews to their land, a rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem, and a removal of the Holy Ghost before the time of the Antichrist.

Douggg · Jun 24, 2017

Biblewriter said:
There is a difference of opinion on this detail. I am very hesitant about making claims abut exact timing, for I have almost zero confidence in alleged dates for ancient events. For i spent literally decades studying ancient historical documents, and have fund close to zero agreement between them about exactly when certain events took place.

Hi James, I was not trying to pinpoint a calendar date. I certainly don't know.

JacksBratt · Jun 24, 2017

Adstar said:
I have been a rapture believer for years.. But i am not a pre-tribulation rapture believer.. I believe the rapture will happen at the last trumpet and that is the trumpet that sounds when Jesus returns.. So the rapture will happen on the Day of the return of Jesus..

Pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is an escapist doctrine that has a lot of support because people want to avoid persecution.. Better to be ready for persecution then to be in denial and totally unprepared in your mind for persecution when it comes..

A person expecting persecution does not have their faith tested when it comes..

Escapist? You use that like it's a bad thing. Did Noah not escape the flood? Did the Jews in Egypt not escape the plagues? Why then would God not provide a way out of His wrath for His church?

Let me be honest, I do not want to be here when this goes down, plain and simple.
However, that is not why I believe in Pre Trib. How silly. To hope that believing something will make it so.

Stop and think for a second. In 2010 there were 2.2 billion Christians. If every one of them is on the earth during the tribulation, the rule of the antichrist, you can be sure that they will be full aware of the events and what is actually happening.

Then, even if only 1/2 of this mass of people got down on their knees and prayed and engaged the Holy Spirit, nothing would be able to be done on this earth to prevail against them.

Secondly, if the antichrist enacted the law of taking the mark of the beast, Now you have 2.2 billion, or more, people who can not buy, sell, work, travel, or function in society in any way.

That's more than 1/4 of the world population refusing to follow the militant government.

When you think of that, some elections are decided on close to that percentage of the population showing up to the polls. It is a huge portion of the population.

Now, the antichrist has to find them, incarcerate them and behead them. That's one in four people, or more. In some countries it would be less, in others more.

I don't know about you, but I cannot see this as being a feasible concept.

The Christians being here would mean that the Holy Spirit would have to be here.
Christ said, "whatever you ask in my name".. the power these 2.2 billion would have would be a wall against the coming evil.

On top of all that...... I cannot see our God asking of a 10, 12, 18 year old young people to choose between losing their head or taking the mark. Not even to most grown and mature adults. What about you? Denounce Christ or be guillotined, crucified, beheaded, shot? Look at your church congregation. Would you put them to that test? Then why would Christ?

We are saved by grace. Not by a test of a brutal death. Some are but not 2.2 billion people.

Think of a new Christian. Young, 23 years old, just out of school, new job in an office, sick of the rat race, coming to the church, accepting savior presented as the personification of love. On fire for Christ and on a new road.... then the question... Do you believe Christ is the lord of this world? As they kneel with a blade above their head??? This is your loving God? This is your Savior?

So, no. I know there is a lot of argument, scripture duels, theological sparring.... but when it comes down to it..........How can the church and the Holy spirit be here while evil has full reign of the earth?

Biblewriter · Jun 24, 2017

This thread, as almost always happens, has been derailed from its original point, which is whether or not pre-tribbers have successfully predicted any details of end time events.

I am greatly saddened by the irresponsible way many pre-tribbers have treated the prophetic scriptures, even as most others also treat them without the reverence they deserve. But the gross errors and wild predictionsmade by many have zero bearing on the truth. The fact is, that most of the major details surrounding modern times were predicted in the nineteenth century, before the pre-trib camp was overwhelmed by opportunists seeking to sell books, rather than to teach the word of God.

The prime example of these nineteenth century writers was an Irishman by the name of William Kelly, a member of the Plymouth brethren and a close associate of John Nelson Darby. He not only predicted the return of the Jews to their homeland, but their rebellion and unbelief when they returned. He also predicted that when they returned, theyould be surrounded by bloodthrsty enemies, bent on their annihilation.

His analysis of the typical significance of the locusts in Revelation 9:7-11, was a precise description of a modern Communist soldier.

On the basis of Daniel 11:43, he said, "from this we know that before the end comes, there will be a vast collection of gold and silver, somewhere in the middle east."

And in regard to Isaiah 18:1-2, he (correcty) observed that "the rivers of Ethiopia were the Nile and the Euphrates. (It is a little known detail of history, that at the time of Isaiah, only abut half of the Ethipoian nation lived along the upper reaches of the Nile river. The other half still lived in their original home along the upper reaches of the Euphrates river.) So he concluded that this prophecy was addressed to a nation from somewhere outside of the ancient world. But then he launched into a discussion of the "vessels" which these "swift messengers" would use to go "over the sea." He said, "This is a very strange word, used in this way nowhere else in scripture. It is obviously some king of a vessel, but it is definitely not a boat."

My quotations from Kelly are approximate, not exactly word for word, as I am writing from memory and did not look them up to get the wording precisely exact.

But, allthough Kelly was the most insightful student of prophecy that I have ever studied, many other predictions were made by earlier students of Bible prophecy.

When the King James translation of the Bible was published in 1611, it made, for the first time in history, the entire Bible readily available in the language of the people, at a price ordinary people could afford. The result was an explosion of Bible study, and as a result, about thirty years later, an host of commentaries began to appear. These commentaries, based on the scriptures themselves, rather than on what the "scholars" had said, contained a revival of many truths which had not been taught since the days of the early church.

During the next 150 years or so, up to a few years before John Nelson Darby was born, many of these commentators taught many of the truths of Bible prophecy, including extensive commentary about the return of the Jews to their land and what would happen to them there. Much of what they taught is reviewed in a very large book by William C. Watson, titled "Dispensationalism Before Darby," published in 2015 by Lampion Press in Silverton, Oregon.

And I have personally reviewed and commented on several others that taught these truths after Darby was born, but before he began writing.

JacksBratt · Jun 24, 2017

Biblewriter said:
This thread, as almost always happens, has been derailed from its original point, which is whether or not pre-tribbers have successfully predicted any details of end time events.

I am greatly saddened by the irresponsible way many pre-tribbers have treated the prophetic scriptures, even as most others also treat them without the reverence they deserve. But the gross errors and wild predictionsmade by many have zero bearing on the truth. The fact is, that most of the major details surrounding modern times were predicted in the nineteenth century, before the pre-trib camp was overwhelmed by opportunists seeking to sell books, rather than to teach the word of God.

The prime example of these nineteenth century writers was an Irishman by the name of William Kelly, a member of the Plymouth brethren and a close associate of John Nelson Darby. He not only predicted the return of the Jews to their homeland, but their rebellion and unbelief when they returned. He also predicted that when they returned, theyould be surrounded by bloodthrsty enemies, bent on their annihilation.

His analysis of the typical significance of the locusts in Revelation 9:7-11, was a precise description of a modern Communist soldier.

On the basis of Daniel 11:43, he said, "from this we know that before the end comes, there will be a vast collection of gold and silver, somewhere in the middle east."

And in regard to Isaiah 18:1-2, he (correcty) observed that "the rivers of Ethiopia were the Nile and the Euphrates. (It is a little known detail of history, that at the time of Isaiah, only abut half of the Ethipoian nation lived along the upper reaches of the Nile river. The other half still lived in their original home along the upper reaches of the Euphrates river.) So he concluded that this prophecy was addressed to a nation from somewhere outside of the ancient world. But then he launched into a discussion of the "vessels" which these "swift messengers" would use to go "over the sea." He said, "This is a very strange word, used in this way nowhere else in scripture. It is obviously some king of a vessel, but it is definitely not a boat."

My quotations from Kelly are approximate, not exactly word for word, as I am writing from memory and did not look them up to get the wording precisely exact.

But, allthough Kelly was the most insightful student of prophecy that I have ever studied, many other predictions were made by earlier students of Bible prophecy.

When the King James translation of the Bible was published in 1611, it made, for the first time in history, the entire Bible readily available in the language of the people, at a price ordinary people could afford. The result was an explosion of Bible study, and as a result, about thirty years later, an host of commentaries began to appear. These commentaries, based on the scriptures themselves, rather than on what the "scholars" had said, contained a revival of many truths which had not been taught since the days of the early church.

During the next 150 years or so, up to a few years before John Nelson Darby was born, many of these commentators taught many of the truths of Bible prophecy, including extensive commentary about the return of the Jews to their land and what would happen to them there. Much of what they taught is reviewed in a very large book by William C. Watson, titled "Dispensationalism Before Darby," published in 2015 by Lampion Press in Silverton, Oregon.

And I have personally reviewed and commented on several others that taught these truths after Darby was born, but before he began writing.

As far as I'm concerned, and I know you want to attach a pile of predictions to "pretribbers", and "pretribbers" only, for some reason....like they are the wacko's here, and came up with all these predictions that have not taken place, setting dates and deciphering all the scripture......

The fact that I am a Pre Tribulation believer means one thing and one thing only..............

I believe that the church will be removed before the tribulation.

Simple enough?

So, you can stop pasting sticky notes of "most pretribbers believe this" and "most pretribbers" believe that.....on all those who believe in the one plain and simple fact that is the one common thread that is common to us..... the removal of the church before the seven years of Gods wrath.... Period.

Enough with the finger pointing, name calling, belief assuming and cloaked condescension.

Original Happy Camper · Jun 24, 2017

"Seventy weeks are determined upon my people"

There is no gap between the 69th and the last week, they are continuous.

The teaching that the last week pertains to the anti-christ is blasphemy as it is attributing the fulfillment of this prophecy to Satan instead of to GODs work from his baptism (verse 25) to the cross, 3.5 years (26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself, 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease:) and the Stoning of Steven, 3.5 years after the cross, when the Gospel went to another nation, the gentiles. (verse 24)

Daniel 9:23-25 King James Version (KJV)
23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Biblewriter · Jun 24, 2017

As to the rapture, it is so clearly taught in scripture that it is rank unbelief to deny that it will happen. But, regardless of what anyone claims, the scriptures simply do not state when it will take place, in regard to other end time events. All interpretations of the timing of the rapture are based in interpretations of the meanings of various scriptures. And people who do not realize that their interpretations might not be correct are unqualified to teach scripture.

This does not mean I have any doubt abut the timing of the rapture. I am thoroughly persuaded that this is the possible time for it to happen. Bit I realize that this is an interpretation.

But I see a widespread and often repeated error in the "teachings" of those who deny a pre tribulation rapture. Almost all of their arguments are based on a rank assumption that the Lord is only coming back one time. So they see comments about His return to judge the world after the tribulation, and say, see - there it is. But this is error.

The ancient Jews did not recognize their Messiah when He came, because they failed to see that the Old Testament prophecies spoke of more than one coming of the great Messiah. Some of these prophecies spoke of Him as a great conquering hero that would reign forever, but others spoke of Him as a meek and suffering servant, who would die. They loved the great conquering hero parts, so the studied them. But they ignored the meek and suffering servant parts. So they failed to recognize Him when He came.

Even so, most post ribbers fail to notice that there are similar differences between various prophecies about our Lord's return. Like the Old testament prophecies, they contain elements that would be flat contradictions if he were only returning once. And once we realize that He is returning more than just once, almost all of the post trib arguments simply fall to the ground.

Douggg · Jun 24, 2017

Yahchristian said:
I am surprised that you do not know this. But Pretribbers actually believe...

That day, on which the sixty-nine weeks ended, was the fateful day on which the Lord Jesus rode into Jerusalem in fulfillment of the prophecy of Zechariah 9:9; when, for the first and only occasion in all His earthly sojourn, He was acclaimed as "Messiah the Prince the King, the Son of David." (The Coming Prince, page 95)

The Coming Prince, by Sir Robert Anderson, is by far the most popular Pretribber book on the timing of the Seventy Weeks. And just about every other Pretribber author quotes his book.

I disagree with his findings because it is easy to prove him wrong mathematically, but you should read it if you claim to be a Pretribber.

I don't claim to be pre-trib, although the rapture might happen pre-trib. There is nothing that says it can't. I am anytime rapture view that the rapture can happen anytime between now and when it does. Having said that, I don't see the likelyhood of a post trib rapture.

Pre-trib is actually a misnomer, what is really being meant is pre-70th week. Many people use the term tribulation period, indicating the full 7 years; but the term is not found in the bible. What is found is great tribulation - which basically is the second half of the seven years.

I don't why it is an issue of worth of whether it is last day of 69th week or 4 days before the last day, that Jesus rode into Jerusalem hailed as the messiah. Especially when historicists can't nail down when the 1260 years, in their view started, by an over 40 years spread on opinion, nor what even started the 1260 years.

Adstar · Jun 24, 2017

JacksBratt said:
Escapist? You use that like it's a bad thing. Did Noah not escape the flood? Did the Jews in Egypt not escape the plagues? Why then would God not provide a way out of His wrath for His church?

Let me be honest, I do not want to be here when this goes down, plain and simple.
However, that is not why I believe in Pre Trib. How silly. To hope that believing something will make it so.

Stop and think for a second. In 2010 there were 2.2 billion Christians. If every one of them is on the earth during the tribulation, the rule of the antichrist, you can be sure that they will be full aware of the events and what is actually happening.

Then, even if only 1/2 of this mass of people got down on their knees and prayed and engaged the Holy Spirit, nothing would be able to be done on this earth to prevail against them.

Secondly, if the antichrist enacted the law of taking the mark of the beast, Now you have 2.2 billion, or more, people who can not buy, sell, work, travel, or function in society in any way.

That's more than 1/4 of the world population refusing to follow the militant government.

When you think of that, some elections are decided on close to that percentage of the population showing up to the polls. It is a huge portion of the population.

Now, the antichrist has to find them, incarcerate them and behead them. That's one in four people, or more. In some countries it would be less, in others more.

I don't know about you, but I cannot see this as being a feasible concept.

The Christians being here would mean that the Holy Spirit would have to be here.
Christ said, "whatever you ask in my name".. the power these 2.2 billion would have would be a wall against the coming evil.

On top of all that...... I cannot see our God asking of a 10, 12, 18 year old young people to choose between losing their head or taking the mark. Not even to most grown and mature adults. What about you? Denounce Christ or be guillotined, crucified, beheaded, shot? Look at your church congregation. Would you put them to that test? Then why would Christ?

We are saved by grace. Not by a test of a brutal death. Some are but not 2.2 billion people.

Think of a new Christian. Young, 23 years old, just out of school, new job in an office, sick of the rat race, coming to the church, accepting savior presented as the personification of love. On fire for Christ and on a new road.... then the question... Do you believe Christ is the lord of this world? As they kneel with a blade above their head??? This is your loving God? This is your Savior?

So, no. I know there is a lot of argument, scripture duels, theological sparring.... but when it comes down to it..........How can the church and the Holy spirit be here while evil has full reign of the earth?

Noah was protected through the flood.. He did not leave earth.. Just as in the end times some Christians will be protected through the tribulation on earth so as to witness the judgement upon those who persecuted them.. And yes escapist doctrines are bad when they give false hope and are a decption..

Psalms 91: KJV
2 "I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust. {3} Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence. {4} He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. {5} Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; {6} Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. {7} A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee. {8} Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked. {9} Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation; {10} There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling. {11} For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. {12} They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone."

Biblewriter · Jun 24, 2017

Douggg said:
Hi James, I was not trying to pinpoint a calendar date. I certainly don't know.

I was not speaking of "date setting," for when the Lord comes. Anyone who does this is ignoring explicitly stated scripture. I was speaking of ancient dates. In many cases, even the decade in which an event occurred is doubtful.

Pretribbers, which pretrib "details" have proven true?

Well-Known Member

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anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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