The Double Message of Eternal Security.

Albion · Jun 23, 2017

Kenny'sID said:
I know them personally and there are some here that I'd probably best not mention.

OK. I'm growing weary of trying to get through, but it is not the case--with the exception of a scattering of people here or there who don't know what these terms mean--that Sola Fide and Eternal Security mean you can claim Faith and then just live a life as an unrepentant sinner and still be saved. Not at all.

And anyone who repeats such a claim either doesn't understand this matter or doesn't care to. That's my summary. Thanks for the conversation.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 23, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
Love your enemies
Matt5:44

This is not that hard actually.
You do not do this currently?
Anyways, what words of condemnation are attached with this?

You said:
When you give a luncheon/ dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers, or relatives, or your rich neighbours, if you do, they might invite you back, and so you will be repaid. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, crippled, the lame, the blind and you will be blessed
Luke 14:12&13

Where are the words of condemnation if you do not do this?
Now, Matthew 25 says we are to feed, and give drink to the poor. We are to let the stranger into our home and minister to those in prison. Obviously Jesus is talking about doing at least one of these things here like helping the poor and the less unfortunate in some way. Surely it is not hard to do that. I have done so and continue to do so. Are you saying you do not do this?

You said:
Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back Luke6:30
But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back.
Luke6:35

What words of condemnation are here if you do not do these specific words?
Yes, we are to love even our enemies.
But loving enemies can take various different forms, as well.
Loving one's enemies is a part of loving your neighbor (Which should be natural for a child of God).

You said:
For I would not have known lust/ impure thoughts except the law had said: thou shalt not covet Rom7:7

Paul's point is not that he could never know the immorality of God's laws without the written law.

For Romans 2:14 says,
"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves"

Today, many Gentile cultures today know that murder, rape, child abuse, theft, lying, etc. are immoral and wrong. They do not need a written law telling them this is so. They just know in their heart certain things are wrong because God gives a certain amount of light of men in having a conscience to a certain degree.

In Romans 7:7-13, Paul is talking from the perspective of an Israelite living throughout history (Whereby they received the Law of Moses). Paul is saying in Romans 7 that coveting is 100% a sin by what God's Word says and it is not a matter of only the conscience by certain men. But Paul's point in Romans 7:14-24 shows his utter defeat and it does not show his victory in walking in righteousness like in Romans 6 and Romans 8. In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is recounting his experience as a Pharisee who obeyed the Old Testament Law (Which led him to utter failure). But the New Covenant Law was still being formed during the time of Paul's writings. It's why Romans 7 says we are to SERVE in newness of the Spirit and not in the Oldness of the letter (i.e. the 613 Commands of the Law of Moses). Paul was saying we need Jesus to overcome the lusts of the flesh (See Romans 13:14). It is why Paul was thankful to Jesus in delivering him from his struggle with sin (Romans 7:25).

You said:
Now will you water down, or try and twist some of these 1050 commands?

We both know you already do (because you teach a sin and still be saved gospel), so why would you be upset if you were to think I were to do so?

You said:
If you die, without repenting of not obeying any of them, will you be sent to hell?

I

Matthew 25 (Which you did not mention) does have words of condemnation attached if one were to not feed and give drink to the poor. So "yes"; If I refused to help the poor in this life, then those words of condemnation would apply to me. I am not above God's Word; And neither are you.

...

RC1970 · Jun 23, 2017

Jason0047 said:
The idea that all regenerate individuals will always do good and right does not sound consistent with verses like this, though.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me." (Matthew 23:37).

Why would Jesus (God) say something like this? It makes no sense according to your belief. If Jesus really wanted to save them, then He would over ride their free will and regenerate them so as to walk holy.

...

Exactly, Matthew 23:37 shows that the external call by itself is insufficient. People who are spiritual dead can not respond to the call of Christ. The regeneration of the individual is necessary.

As to why some are regenerate and some are not, only the Spirit knows.

"Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” ~ John 3:7-8

stuart lawrence · Jun 23, 2017

Jason0047 said:
This is not that hard actually.
You do not do this currently?
Anyways, what words of condemnation are attached with this?

Where are the words of condemnation if you do not do this?
Now, Matthew 25 says we are to feed, and give drink to the poor. We are to let the stranger into our home and minister to those in prison. Obviously Jesus is talking about doing at least one of these things here like helping the poor and the less unfortunate in some way. Surely it is not hard to do that. I have done so and continue to do so. Are you saying you do not do this?

What words of condemnation are here if you do not do these specific words?
Yes, we are to love even our enemies.
But loving enemies can take various different forms, as well.
Loving one's enemies is a part of loving your neighbor (Which should be natural for a child of God).

Paul's point is not that he could never know the immorality of God's laws without the written law.

For Romans 2:14 says,
"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves"

Today, many Gentile cultures today know that murder, rape, child abuse, theft, lying, etc. are immoral and wrong. They do not need a written law telling them this is so. They just know in their heart certain things are wrong because God gives a certain amount of light of men in having a conscience to a certain degree.

In Romans 7:7-13, Paul is talking from the perspective of an Israelite living throughout history (Whereby they received the Law of Moses). Paul is saying in Romans 7 that coveting is 100% a sin by what God's Word says and it is not a matter of only the conscience by certain men. But Paul's point in Romans 7:14-24 shows his utter defeat and it does not show his victory in walking in righteousness like in Romans 6 and Romans 8. In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is recounting his experience as a Pharisee who obeyed the Old Testament Law (Which led him to utter failure). But the New Covenant Law was still being formed during the time of Paul's writings. It's why Romans 7 says we are to SERVE in newness of the Spirit and not in the Oldness of the letter (i.e. the 613 Commands of the Law of Moses). Paul was saying he needs Jesus to overcome the lusts of the flesh (See Romans 13:14).

We both know you already do (because you teach a sin and still be saved gospel), so why would you be upset if you were to think I were to do so?

Matthew 25 (Which you did not mention) does have words of condemnation attached if one were to not feed and give drink to the poor. So "yes"; If I refused to help the poor in this life, then those words of condemnation would apply to me.

...

The hypocrisy is galling. Dumb down the commands to excuse not doing them!
Where is the condemnation?
They are part of the 1050 commands in the NT that you say are part of a law of righteousness. Therefore under a law of righteousness if you fail to obey any of them and fail to repent, i would think you must( or should) believe you are condemned

RC1970 · Jun 23, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Also, to what degree do they sin and repent and sin and repent over and over in this life?

Is it 20%?
How about 50%?
To what degree is the line of morality drawn?
How much sin can they get away with before we say... "Hey, they are being bad and evil now."?

God says in His Word to be ye holy because I am holy.
Jesus says be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect.
But obvious these words in Scripture cannot be believed at face value with your belief, though.

...

If a person is truly regenerate they will keep seeking forgiveness. With the Grace of God, they will seek to reform their lives, but they will not fully succeed until they are Glorified by God in Heaven.

The unregenerate person may seek forgiveness for a season, but like the repentance of Esau, it will not be genuine.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 23, 2017

chaela said:
Wow. Defensive already. Could you show where I mentioned anything about problems with you as a person?

Sorry. It just sounded like you implied laziness by having you watch a video.
Whether that was your intention or not, I do not know.
But many times, I get a deflective replies on this matter or topic.
So I apologize if I came off a little defensive.

You said:
Did Jesus save, or did he not?

Univeralists can say the same thing.
So what separates your belief from the Universalist's view on salvation?
Surely they would argue that your version of grace is not strong or good enough to save everyone, too.
In other words, it is true that Jesus saves, but He only saves those who truly desire to repent and turn to Him. Jesus does not save folks who do not seek to be changed and who would prefer their sin instead of Him and His good ways.

...

Bible Highlighter · Jun 23, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
The hypocrisy is galling. Dumb down the commands to excuse not doing them!
Where is the condemnation?
They are part of the 1050 commands in the NT that you say are part of a law of righteousness. Therefore under a law of righteousness if you fail to obey any of them and fail to repent, i would think you must( or should) believe you are condemned

Not all sin is the same.
There are sins unto death and sins not unto death (1 John 5:16-17).
I have told you all this before, but you still do not want to listen.
Which is why I ignored your posts for a long while.

...

stuart lawrence · Jun 23, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Not all sin is the same.
There are sins unto death and sins not unto death (1 John 5:16-17).
I have told you all this before, but you still do not want to listen.
Which is why I ignored your posts for a long while.

...

For whoever keeps the whole law, yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it
James2:10

stuart lawrence · Jun 23, 2017

I'm afraid people reel off pat statements from the top of their heads that have no bearing on the reality of their lives. They do not practice what they preach/ demand of others.
They cannot practice what they preach, for, the letter kills

Bible Highlighter · Jun 23, 2017

RC1970 said:
If a person is truly regenerate they will keep seeking forgiveness. With the Grace of God, they will seek to reform their lives, but they will not fully succeed until they are Glorified by God in Heaven.

The unregenerate person may seek forgiveness for a season, but like the repentance of Esau, it will not be genuine.

But that is the double message of Eternal Security (Which is a contradiction).
You say on one hand a person is going to strive to live more holy but in reality we both know they are just paying lip service while they struggle with sin.

Test question time.

Do you believe that a believer can die in one or two unrepentant sins (like lying or lusting after a woman) and yet still be saved (as long as they generally lived a holy life)?

Please answer either "Yes"; or "no."

...

Bible Highlighter · Jun 23, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
For whoever keeps the whole law, yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it
James2:10

Paul is talking about breaking the Royal Law (See James 2:8). Paul was talking about having respect of persons in the beginning of James 2. Please read the chapter.

There are sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death (See 1 John 5:16-17). Not all sin leads to spiritual death. Not obeying the command of baptism in this life is not a sin that leads unto spiritual death (See 1 Peter 3:21).

...

Bible Highlighter · Jun 23, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
I'm afraid people reel off pat statements from the top of their heads that have no bearing on the reality of their lives. They do not practice what they preach/ demand of others.
They cannot practice what they preach, for, the letter kills

And diversion.

As for the letter kills statement in God's Word: Well, the letter kills because in the Old Letter of the Law you could be stoned for not obeying it. The letter kills does not apply to New Covenant Law today because there are no "New Covenant Laws" involving capital punishment dished out by believers.

...

stuart lawrence · Jun 23, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Paul is talking about breaking the Royal Law (See James 2:8). Paul was talking about having respect of persons in the beginning of James 2. Please read the chapter.

There are sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death (See 1 John 5:16-17). Not all sin leads to spiritual death. Not obeying the command of baptism in this life is not a sin that leads unto spiritual death (See 1 Peter 3:21).

...

James is talking about applicable NClaw. Paul agrees:

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse. For it is written: Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the book of the law. Clearly no one is justified/ righteous by observing the law
Gal3:10-11

Paul CANNOT be referring to non applicable OC law, for that law could be faultlessly obeyed!!
So you would not be cursed by relying on observing it!

Bible Highlighter · Jun 23, 2017

RC1970 said:
If a person is truly regenerate they will keep seeking forgiveness. With the Grace of God, they will seek to reform their lives, but they will not fully succeed until they are Glorified by God in Heaven.

The unregenerate person may seek forgiveness for a season, but like the repentance of Esau, it will not be genuine.

So God takes away our free will choice after we are regenerated?
If that is the case, then why do you think believers still sin?
Is not God's will for us to be holy? (See 1 Thessalonians 4:3 NLT).

...

stuart lawrence · Jun 23, 2017

Jason0047 said:
And diversion.

As for the letter kills statement in God's Word: Well, the letter kills because in the Old Letter of the Law you could be stoned for not obeying it. The letter kills does not apply to New Covenant Law today because there are no "New Covenant Laws" involving capital punishment dished out by believers.

...

The letter kills referred to the law written on tablets of stone/TC.
That is applicable NC law. You your self have many times stated not coveting is NC law.
You contradict yourself so much Jason

RC1970 · Jun 23, 2017

Jason0047 said:
But that is the double message of Eternal Security (Which is a contradiction).
You say on one hand a person is going to strive to live more holy but in reality we both know they are just paying lip service while they struggle with sin.

Test question time.

Do you believe that a believer can die in one or two unrepentant sins (like lying or lusting after a woman) and yet still be saved (as long as they generally lived a holy life)?

Please answer either "Yes"; or "no."

...

If a person is a true believer then they are "in Christ" and not "in their sins" so they are saved. The seeking of forgiveness is not what justifies us, but it is the beginning of what sanctifies us.

Justification is a monergistic work of the Spirit, but sanctification is a synergistic work between the Spirit and the believer.

For someone who as over 10,000 posts on this forum, you seem to be lacking in the knowledge of basic Christian principles. Would you like for me to suggest some books on the subject of soteriology?

com7fy8 · Jun 23, 2017

Kenny'sID said:
What you are saying there is God is going to control us. He will never change our nature to that point. Our nature should/will change, sure, but only to the degree we let it, and we can change it back in a heartbeat if we choose to.

This would mean my nature is not stable. And God does not change, and His love in us does change us to become more and more stable and sound . . . as we become more and more "strong in the Lord and in the power of His might." (in Ephesians 6:10)

We trust God to have His love's control in us, including how >

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment." (in 1 John 4:18)

God's control is better than ours; so we want Him to share His love's almighty control with us so Satan can't get the better of us, plus so we are so personally and intimately sharing with Him

And it is clear that His correction brings us to share with Him in His nature > Hebrews 12:4-11.

I think you're saying that in one's own free will one is not really safe. But if we are saved by Jesus, we are safe

By denying ourselves (Luke 9:23) and depending on Jesus, we get free from our human free will which has been so available to Satan and sin and the suffering thereof.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 23, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
James is talking about a time, applicable law.

This statement does not make sense. Please explain better.

You said:
Paul agrees:

All who rely in observing the law are u see a curse. For it is written: Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the book of the law. Clearly no one is justified/ righteous by observing the law
Gal3:10-11

Paul CANNOT be referring to non applicable OC law, for that law could be faultlessly obeyed!!
So you would not be cursed by relying on observing it!

Not true at all. Paul is referring to the Old Law. In Galatians 5:2, Paul says if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. Circumcision is OT Law and not NT Law. So Paul is speaking against OT Law and not all laws in general. In fact, he says if you do certain sins you will not inherit the Kingdom of God (See Galatians 5:19-21).

...

stuart lawrence · Jun 23, 2017

Jason0047 said:
This statement does not make sense. Please explain better.

Not true at all. Paul is referring to the Old Law. In Galatains 5:2, Paul says if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. Circumcision is OT Law and not NT Law. So Paul is speaking against OT Law and not all laws in general. In fact, he says if you do certain sins you will not inherit the Kingdom of God (See Galatians 5:19-21).

...

Ridiculous.
No one would be cursed by relying on obedience to law they could faultlessly obey

Rajni · Jun 23, 2017

Jason0047 said:

Sorry. It just sounded like you implied laziness by having you watch a video.
Whether that was your intention or not, I do not know.
But many times, I get a deflective replies on this matter or topic.
So I apologize if I came off a little defensive.

Click to expand...

No worries. If anything, I'm the lazy one for not watching the videos, but it's simply because I feel we can cut to the chase far more quickly and efficiently with you conveying the point rather than letting two guys arguing in a video series do it.

chaela said:
Did Jesus save, or did he not?

Jason0047 said:

Univeralists can say the same thing.

Click to expand...

About what?

So what separates your belief from the Universalist's view on salvation?

Well, as you may already know, I am a Universalist, but even with Universalism out of the picture I would (and did, even prior to being universalistic) fall into the OSAS camp.

In other words, it is true that Jesus saves, but He only saves those who truly desire to repent and turn to Him. Jesus does not save folks who do not seek to be changed and who would prefer their sin instead of Him and His good ways.

I believe He came to seek and to save the lost. So, whoever falls into the category of "The Lost", will be sought and saved, sooner or later.

But setting aside for a moment the universalist aspect, if one believes that faith, belief, and repentance are gifts of God rather than the result of personal effort, then eternal security would be a logical conclusion, because if it wasn't earned, it can't very well be un-earned.

Jason0047 said:
Also, to what degree do they sin and repent and sin and repent over and over in this life?

Is it 20%?
How about 50%?
To what degree is the line of morality drawn?
How much sin can they get away with before we say... "Hey, they are being bad and evil now."?

And this is the problem with Eternal Security's opposite, sometimes called "Lordship Salvation", which pushes "saving faith". It's just works-based salvation sneaking in through the back door, because it leaves one wondering how many Works Per Minute (WPMs) they need to be performing to qualify as having "saving faith" rather than merely "false assurance". It takes their focus off of what Jesus has done and places it on what they themselves do.

What a head-game that is. I'm glad to have that behind me.

The Double Message of Eternal Security.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

post tenebras lux

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post tenebras lux

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

post tenebras lux

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

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