Question about the Reformation

1stcenturylady said:

Are they located in a certain area, like Rome?

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Again - what are you asking me?? Are you asking if I believe the Catholic Church is the Church that is headquartered in the Vatican? I already explained this.

There is ONE Catholic Church.
It is comprised of 20 Rites that are in full communion with the Pope..
The Pope is the Supreme earthly Head.

I thought I was pretty clear about all of this . . .

MarysSon said:

Once again - you fail to understand what the Church is..

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No, I understand it just fine, thank you. It does appear to me, though, that you didn't get what I explained in my last post.

Albion said:

No, I understand it just fine, thank you. It does appear to me, though, that you didn't get what I explained in my last post.

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No - I understood perfectly what you were trying to say.
It's just that you are mistaken. There is only ONE Catholic Church - period.

MarysSon said:

No - I understood perfectly what you were trying to say.
It's just that you are mistaken. There is only ONE Catholic Church - period.

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Going by the statistical analysis YOU chose to cite for us, there are over 300 ROMAN Catholic denominations...and then there are the Old Catholics, the Liberal Catholics, the SSPX, the SSPV, various Independent Catholic jurisdictions, and, of course, the Eastern Churches that are not different rites of the Church of Rome but are categorized as Catholic by theology. A lot of the members in each of these like to say, as you did, that none of the other ones should count.

Albion said:

Going by the statistical analysis YOU chose to cite for us, there are over 300 ROMAN Catholic denominations...and then there are the Old Catholics, the Liberal Catholics, the SSPX, the SSPV, various Independent Catholic jurisdictions, and, of course, the Eastern Churches that are not different rites of the Church of Rome but are categorized as Catholic by theology. A lot of the members in each of these like to say, as you did, that none of the other ones should count.

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What statistical analysis??
I simply pointed out that you were dead wrong - which you are - about there being more than ONE Catholic Church.

The Polish Catholics, Independent Catholics, SSPX, SSPV, et al are not part of the Catholic Church.
They are dissident groups that broke away from the Catholic Church - as are the Orthodox Churches.

You need to study your history instead of making these reckless statements.

Original Happy Camper said:

Where the reformers inspired and lead by the Holy Spirit?

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That is an excellent question. Though for years I assumed "yes!", at this point my response has changed to a "no". Sincere, educated, and zealous, in every way. But prompted to do what they did (in the sense of the theologies they developed and spread abroad, and the anti-Catholicism they tended to endorse) by the Holy Spirit? No.

Original Happy Camper said:

Where the reformers inspired and lead by the Holy Spirit?

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Some .

MarysSon said:

Again - what are you asking me?? Are you asking if I believe the Catholic Church is the Church that is headquartered in the Vatican? I already explained this.

There is ONE Catholic Church.
It is comprised of 20 Rites that are in full communion with the Pope..
The Pope is the Supreme earthly Head.

I thought I was pretty clear about all of this . . .

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There are 8 pages of posts. So what if you have already told the group. You are being unkind and sarcastic. Never mind. I will just unwatch this thread. I don't know if the Catholic Church teaches on the fruit of the Spirit, but if not, it should.

1stcenturylady said:

.... the fruit of the Spirit, but if not, it should.

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Why ?
What do you believe that would be even, even if they could ?

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Why ?
What do you believe that would be even, even if they could ?

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Hi Jeff, please rewrite your sentence so I can understand what you mean. Thanks.

1stcenturylady said:

I don't know if the Catholic Church teaches on the fruit of the Spirit, but if not, it should.

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Why ?

What do you believe that("teaches on the fruit of the Spirit") would be even,
even if they could ?

Even if one does not prefer the term "Protestant", or prefers the term Christian instead, theologically, if you hold that salvation is by faith alone through grace alone, and that we are not saved by anything that we do or refrain from doing as an action or personal work, your soteriology is basically Protestant. I get that in many places it's kind of culturally assumed that this is essentially "what Christians believe", and while many Christians do hold to this, the Apostolic Catholic, Orthodox, and Assyrian Churches do not.

1stcenturylady said:

There are 8 pages of posts. So what if you have already told the group. You are being unkind and sarcastic. Never mind. I will just unwatch this thread. I don't know if the Catholic Church teaches on the fruit of the Spirit, but if not, it should.

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I apologize if I was abrupt.
I thought you were baiting me.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Why ?

What do you believe that("teaches on the fruit of the Spirit") would be even,
even if they could ?

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I'm still not sure I understand you. Have you heard of the fruit of the Spirit?

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

1stcenturylady said:

I'm still not sure I understand you. Have you heard of the fruit of the Spirit?

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'Selah'
Knowing what Scripture says,
(to simplify to better understand)
HOW could anyone teach on it correctly if they put tradition over God's Word, thus thwarting God's Purpose for their lives ?

OP: Q1: " Were the "reformers" inspired and lead by the (God) Holy Spirit? "

A1: YES!!!

ALL Scripture is "God-breathed" (spirit-inspired) AND "Superintended" (by God the Holy Spirit)

My Christ-Following VIEWS:

The Bible (Scripture) is the supreme authority when compared to other writings and precepts.
(including "Tradition" AND "Magisterium = "SCRIPTURA SUPREMA)
All of the ACTUAL WORDS therein were "Spirit- Inspired", and "superintended" by God.
The ~40 authors and their scribes recorded these words in "original manuscripts" (MSS) which were without error.
Systematic study of Scripture leads one to the conclusion that it is:
God's supreme way of speaking to Man.
The "economy" or God's methods of relating to Man changed from Old Testament times to New Testament
due to the historical appearance of:
Jesus of Nazareth, The Divine Messiah, The Christ, The God-Man., Son of God, Son of Man, etc

The Bible as a piece of literature is withhout peer, and
it has been MIRACULOUSLY remembered, inspired, dictated, written, copied, translated, preserved, interpreted, and distributed.

NOTE: all verses from NASB!

RELIABILITY of the 4 Gospels and "Dr." Luke's investigations in at least Acts 1-12:

John 14:26 ....Jesus to his followers: Upper Room Discourse
"But the Counselor, (God) the Holy Spirit, (Spirit of Truth) whom the Father will send in my name,
will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." (PERFECT spirit-led RECALL)
.
What the Bible says about itself:

2 Timothy 3: 14-17...All Scripture is God-breathed
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of,because you know those from whom you learned it,
15 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

John 20:30-31 (NIV); 21:25...that you may BELIEVE...the historical BOOKS!
30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may BELIEVE that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God,
and that by believing you may have life in his name.
21:25 Jesus did many other things as well.
If every one of them were written down,
I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

2 Peter 1: 19-21...Bible "produced" by Men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
So we have the prophetic WORD (Scripture) made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.
But know this first of all, that
no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,
for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but
men moved by (God) the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

Luke 24:27, 32, 44-45...the post-resurrection super BIBLE study...He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures
he (Jesus) explained to them (2 Emmaus followers) what was said in all the Scriptures concerning Himself.
They said to one another,
"Were not our hearts burning within us (Holy Spirit?) while He was speaking to us on the road,
while He (Jesus) was explaining the Scriptures to us?"

(...at the "fish fry" to His followers)

Now He said to them,
"These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,

QUESTION: Please PRECISELY DEFINE: "Reformation" or "reformed"

A2: The non-RCC spiritual movement:

The FIVE "SOLA's

1 Sola scriptura ...>("by Scripture alone")
2 Sola fide ...> ("by Faith alone")
3 Sola gratia ...> ("by Grace alone")
4 Solus Christus(o)...> ("Christ alone" or "through Christ alone")
5 Soli Deo gloria...> ("glory to God alone")

REF: Five solae - Wikipedia

The 3 "legs" of RCC theology "stool"?:
1. Scripture
2. "Church Tradition" (early "church father's" writings)
3. " Magisterium" (~= papal decrees)

"Sola scriptura" has evolved into "SCRIPTURA SUPREMA"

POSTS 38/104/ETC: " Q1: There is only ONE (Roman) "Catholic Church".?"

A2: False.

"catholic" - ADJECTIVE ...including a wide variety of things; all-embracing: Of broad or liberal scope; comprehensive; Including or concerning all humankind; universal:

Matthew 16 (NASB)...Peter’s Confession of Jesus as the Christ
13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples,
"Who do people say that the Son of Man is?"
14 And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets."
15 He said to them,
"But who do you say that I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." (profession/revelation)
17 And Jesus said to him,
"Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
18 I also say to you that you are Peter (petros = "Rocky"),
and upon this rock (petra = revelation/confession) I will build My "church"; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

church...Greek 1577...ekklēsia...
in a Christian sense:
1.an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting
2. a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake
those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body
3. the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
4. the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven

The "CHURCH" ("The Living Church?") is the collective "Body" of BELIEVERS,
the members of the "Body of Christ"
who are permanently indwelt by God the Holy Spirit at the time of their Salvation EVENT.
The "Head" and the "Corner Stone" is God the Son, the historical person of :
Jesus of Nazareth, The Christ, The Divine Messiah, Son of God, Son of Man...The God-Man.
He is the "Bridegroom".


Revelations 22: 17 The (God the Holy) Spirit and the "bride" (CHURCH) say, "Come "


Its "building blocks" are the "Grace through Faith" good news which guides the estranged to become a saved BODY + SOUL + SPIRIT. Gospel: Jesus the Divine Messiah has COME DOWN to save Man from the prison of his sins.

Ephesians 4: 2-6; 1 Corinthians 1:10;
Ephesians 1:22; Ephesians 5:23; Colossians 1:18; Revelation 22:16; Psalm 118:22; Isaiah 28:16; Matthew 21: 42-45

Orthodox - ADJECTIVE

1.(of a person or their views, especially religious or political ones, or other beliefs or practices)
conforming to what is generally or traditionally accepted as right or true; established and approved:
2.(of a thing) of the ordinary or usual type; normal:
3.(of the Jews or Judaism) strictly keeping to traditional doctrine and ritual.
4.of or relating to the Orthodox Church(es).
a. Eastern Orthodox Church (EOC)
b. Roman Catholic Church (RCC)

But even if we took the term Roman Catholic Church in its narrowest sense, there are over 300 of them in the report that almost always gets cited by Catholics here when they want to say that there are 33,000 (or whatever) Protestant churches.

POST #107: Q1: " The (Roman) Catholic Church (RCC) has never changed a SINGLE "doctrine". "

A1: False.

Timeline of Roman Catholicism ...a LONG LIST!.

To the ends of the earth...Perú: A History of the Change of Roman Catholic Doctrine ...a short LIST!.

Catholicism's Ever-Changing Doctrine