New Heaven and Earth Discussion

parousia70

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Jesus was NOT sent back to the earth, to begin his literal reign, as King of this planet, yet.
When he DOES return, EVERY eye will see him;
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Do you REALLY think that's the way prophecies are fulfilled???
 
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Dartman

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So will they be scattered again after this future re gathering?
No.
claninja said:
Daniel 12 says Israel will face tribulation and then those who sleep in the dust will awake to everlasting life or contempt. Daniel then asks when these things will happen and the messenger responds in Daniel 12:7 : And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished."
Yes. This puts the first resurrection AFTER the scattering.
Israel was scattered to all the nations roughly 1900 years ago, and has been scattered up to today. They have just begun the recovery process, but the majority of the Jews are still scattered among the nations.
The Jews in the land of Israel only got control of Jerusalem 50 years ago, setting up the literal fulfillment of Zech 14. Jesus will not return, until the nations of the world have violently seized Jerusalem. When Jesus, (Jehovah's servant), returns, his foot will land on the Mount of Olives, (the same location from which he ascended to heaven), and that mountain will split East and West, and the halves will move North and South, creating a valley to the east of Jerusalem.
I think you know this hasn't happened yet.
The first resurrection occurs just before Jesus reaches the earth, and those made immortal meet with Jesus in the clouds.
So, the scattering is still in effect, until AFTER the resurrection.
 
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Dartman

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Dartman said:
Jesus was NOT sent back to the earth, to begin his literal reign, as King of this planet, yet.
When he DOES return, EVERY eye will see him;
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Do you REALLY think that's the way prophecies are fulfilled???
Isa 2:19 And men shall go into the caves of the rocks, and into the holes of the earth, from before the terror of Jehovah, and from the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake mightily the earth. 20 In that day men shall cast away their idols of silver, and their idols of gold, which have been made for them to worship, to the moles and to the bats; 21 to go into the caverns of the rocks, and into the clefts of the ragged rocks, from before the terror of Jehovah, and from the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake mightily the earth.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
 
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Dartman

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Dartman said:
Jesus is in control of all things for his God.
Jesus is NOT literally reigning on the earth yet.
First you say his is running things, now he is in control of all things.
Please explain why you think "running things" is different than "in control".

claninja said:
Is Christ reigning?
Please tell us what you do NOT understand about;
Jesus is NOT literally reigning on the earth yet.
 
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parousia70

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Isa 2:19 And men shall go into the caves of the rocks, and into the holes of the earth, from before the terror of Jehovah, and from the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake mightily the earth. 20 In that day men shall cast away their idols of silver, and their idols of gold, which have been made for them to worship, to the moles and to the bats; 21 to go into the caverns of the rocks, and into the clefts of the ragged rocks, from before the terror of Jehovah, and from the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake mightily the earth.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Do you REALLY think that's the way prophecies are fulfilled???

The cloud-coming of Revelation 1:7 that "every eye would see" is shown in Revelation 14:14-20 to be an event that occurs in the heavenly realms. As the passage reveals, Christ's actions and commands in the heavenlies result in various tribulation-period disasters that transpire on earth. Simply put, Revelation 14:14-20 is the cloud-coming that "every eye would see." This is significant, for St. John is not describing the coming of Christ as some visual spectacular with cumulus clouds in the skies overhead, but as the coming of Yahweh himself, making Christ equal with the Father.

We have countless examples of the Father coming in His great glory during the Old Testamental period (be sure to note the graphic, physical descriptions and explicit "visual" connotations of Yahweh's comings):

[On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

[On Yahweh's coming during the Maccabean Period] For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because you are turbulent more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my ordinances, neither have done after the ordinances of the nations that are round about you; therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you before the eyes of the nations. I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations (Ez 5:7-9)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)

Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others: Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31. Habakkuk's depiction of Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai is nothing less than apocalyptic (Hab 3:3-16).

Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--
the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20).

Importantly, these comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation.
 
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parousia70

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Jesus is NOT literally reigning on the earth yet.

Somebody forgot to tell Him that...

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, ALL POWER is given unto me in heaven AND IN EARTH.
 
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Dartman

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Do you REALLY think that's the way prophecies are fulfilled???
In many cases, yes. In some cases, (and I think this will sound familiar), .. you will find that Jehovah has used bees, earthquakes, pagan nations, prophets, wind, rain, quail, fish, worms, fire, disease, lions, bears, storms, snakes, droughts, angels, thunder, etc.
parousia70 said:
The cloud-coming of Revelation 1:7 that "every eye would see" is shown in Revelation 14:14-20 to be an event that occurs in the heavenly realms.
No, Rev 14 is merely discussing literal events that John is SEEING in the heavens..... as he is seeing visions on the Isle of Patmos. The CONTEXT will explain when the vision is literally about events IN heaven, or merely something John SEES in heaven, that is going to happen on the earth.

parousia70 said:
We have countless examples of the Father coming in His great glory during the Old Testamental period
Yes we do, and as I have stated previously ... you will find that Jehovah has used bees, earthquakes, pagan nations, prophets, wind, rain, quail, fish, worms, fire, disease, lions, bears, storms, snakes, droughts, angels, thunder, etc.
However, we ALSO have countless examples of Jesus LITERALLY fulfilling prophecies!
The 53 chapter of Isaiah, his birth by a virgin, his donkey ride into Jerusalem, his fulfillment of Isa 61:1-2a, his ascension into heaven, and presentation before his God, as foretold in Dan 7, etc. The VAST number of prophecies about Jesus' conquering the nations that are gathered against Israel, the promise of LITERAL changes to the geography of the land of Israel, Jerusalem and other regions. The detailed description of that future temple, and the boundaries of the 12 tribes in Israel .... ALL of this information combined, makes it apparent, Jesus is going to literally come back to this planet, with clouds, and an earthquake like the earth has never seen.
 
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Dartman

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Somebody forgot to tell Him that...

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, ALL POWER is given unto me in heaven AND IN EARTH.
No, you simply are resisting the truth.
Jesus is in control of all things for his God.
Jesus is NOT literally reigning on the earth yet.
 
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parousia70

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. The VAST number of prophecies about Jesus' conquering the nations that are gathered against Israel, the promise of LITERAL changes to the geography of the land of Israel, Jerusalem and other regions. The detailed description of that future temple, and the boundaries of the 12 tribes in Israel .... ALL of this information combined, makes it apparent, Jesus is going to literally come back to this planet, with clouds, and an earthquake like the earth has never seen.

Where does scripture teach you to take Old Testament phrases such as "God Rides a Swift Cloud" and was "seen by the eyes of all nations" as figurative, but NT Phrases such as "He is coming on the clouds and every eye shall see" as Literal?

In Micah 1:3 we are told that God "is coming forth from His place" to "come down and tread on the high places of the earth." How is this descriptive language different from the Lord standing on the Mount of Olives with the result that it will split? Micah says "the mountains will melt under Him, and the valleys will be split, like wax before the fire, like water poured down a steep place" (1:4). "It was not uncommon for prophets to use figurative expressions about the Lord 'coming' down, mountains trembling, being scattered, and hills bowing (Hab. 3:6, 10); mountains flowing down at his presence (Isaiah 64:1, 3); or mountains and hills singing and the trees clapping their hands (Isaiah 55:12)."

I submit that until you demonstrate a consistent interpretation for ALL this language, then your argument that only some of it should be literlaized, in absence of any specific scriptural instruction to do so, is of no merit.

Please explain why I should interpret:

""the mountains will melt under Him, and the valleys will be split, like wax before the fire, like water poured down a steep place"

In polar opposite fashion to:

"and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

I don't see anything in the text that teaches a allegorical explanation of the first and a literal explanation of the second.

Apparently you do however, so please share where such a distinction is taught in scripture.
 
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Dartman

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Who on earth Today do you say has Power and Authority ABOVE Jesus then?
Why do you keep inventing these "straw men"????
I never said ANYONE "has Power and Authority ABOVE Jesus" ..... except his God.
 
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Dartman

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Where does scripture teach you to take Old Testament phrases such as "God Rides a Swift Cloud" and was "seen by the eyes of all nations" as figurative, but NT Phrases such as "He is coming on the clouds and every eye shall see" as Literal?
1) Not "on the clouds" ... "with clouds".
2) The VAST number of prophecies about Jesus' conquering the nations that are gathered against Israel, the promise of LITERAL changes to the geography of the land of Israel, Jerusalem and other regions. The detailed description of that future temple, and the boundaries of the 12 tribes in Israel .... ALL of this information combined, makes it apparent, Jesus is going to literally come back to this planet, with clouds, and an earthquake like the earth has never seen.

parousia70 said:
In Micah 1:3 we are told that God "is coming forth from His place" to "come down and tread on the high places of the earth." How is this descriptive language different from the Lord standing on the Mount of Olives with the result that it will split? Micah says "the mountains will melt under Him, and the valleys will be split, like wax before the fire, like water poured down a steep place" (1:4). "It was not uncommon for prophets to use figurative expressions about the Lord 'coming' down, mountains trembling, being scattered, and hills bowing (Hab. 3:6, 10); mountains flowing down at his presence (Isaiah 64:1, 3); or mountains and hills singing and the trees clapping their hands (Isaiah 55:12)."
Excellent point!
Notice, in Zech 14 it not only names Mt. Olives specifically, it goes on in GREAT detail explaining the literal result of that event. This isn't figurative.
Again; The VAST number of prophecies about Jesus' conquering the nations that are gathered against Israel, the promise of LITERAL changes to the geography of the land of Israel, Jerusalem and other regions. The detailed description of that future temple, and the boundaries of the 12 tribes in Israel .... ALL of this information combined, makes it apparent, Jesus is going to literally come back to this planet, with clouds, and an earthquake like the earth has never seen.
 
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parousia70

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1) Not "on the clouds" ... "with clouds".
Matthew 24:30
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64
64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Excellent point!
Notice, in Zech 14 it not only names Mt. Olives specifically, it goes on in GREAT detail explaining the literal result of that event. This isn't figurative.
Again; The VAST number of prophecies about Jesus' conquering the nations that are gathered against Israel, the promise of LITERAL changes to the geography of the land of Israel, Jerusalem and other regions. The detailed description of that future temple, and the boundaries of the 12 tribes in Israel .... ALL of this information combined, makes it apparent, Jesus is going to literally come back to this planet, with clouds, and an earthquake like the earth has never seen.

Again, nothing in the text teaches you to take a literal interpretation here. I get that you've chosen to, but no where is it taught.

Here my take:
What is the Bible teaching us with this descriptive language of the Mount of Olives "split in its middle"? The earliest Christian writers applied Zechariah 14:4 to the work of Christ in His day. Tertullian (A.D. 1452) wrote: "'But at night He went out to the Mount of Olives.' For thus had Zechariah pointed out: 'And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of Olives' [Zech. xiv. 4]."7 Tertullian was alluding to the fact that the Olivet prophecy set the stage for the judgment-coming of Christ that would once for all break down the Jewish/Gentile division. Matthew Henry explains the theology behind the prophecy:

The partition-wall between Jew and Gentiles shall be taken away. The mountains about Jerusalem, and particularly this, signified it to be an enclosure, and that it stood in the way of those who would approach to it. Between the Gentiles and Jerusalem this mountain of Bether, of division, stood, Cant. ii. 17. But by the destruction of Jerusalem this mountain shall be made to cleave in the midst, and so the Jewish pale shall be taken down, and the church laid in common with the Gentiles, who were made one with the Jews by the breaking down of this middle wall of partition, Eph. ii. 14.8

I agree with Tertullian & Henry.
And I see no biblical reason why their explanation is any less plausible than yours, and because of the sheer number of times God's previous quote "Comings" are associated with mountains splitting etc. I see every reason to believe their explanation has far more scriptural weight and precedent behind it.
 
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ViaCrucis

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But the verse says Heaven, not Heavens. And God is in Heaven...just a couple of examples....

Revelation 4:2 “At once I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne.”

"Our Father who art in Heaven"


...so it would be very much a place. As I've always understood it, Heaven is in the heavens.

In Luke 11:2 the Greek text reads,

"εἶπεν δὲ αὐτοῖς Ὅταν προσεύχησθε λέγετε Πάτερ ἡμῶν ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοις, ἁγιασθήτω τὸ ὄνομά σου ἐλθέτω ἡ βασιλεία σου γενηθήτω τὸ θέλημά σου ὡς ἐν οὐρανῳ, καὶ ἐπὶ τὴς γὴς"

The word there οὐρανοις, is ouranois, it is the dative plural of ouranos, that is "heavens" not "heaven". The use of the singular "heaven" in the Lord's Prayer is due to the way we've translated it into English; but literally the text reads, "Father of us in the heavens"

Though in Revelation 4:2 the word is οὐρανῷ is the dative singular.

Whether the plural or singular we aren't talking about a literal place, but describing God as present above all things, He is "in the heavens" but even more importantly He is beyond the heavens, beyond heaven, beyond even the highest of the heavens, as Solomon says.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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DennisTate

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Wow.
That's something.

My mentor Evangelist Garner Ted Armostrong introduced me to this topic back in the 1970's so I read quite a bit about it since then..... and flip flopped back and forth quite a bit.

Do a search for the name Eporu Ronald Alfred in this forum...... and you will find a fascinating article by a Pastor from Uganda who I believe has real insight on this topic.
 
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Kenny'sID

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In Luke 11:2 the Greek text reads,

"εἶπεν δὲ αὐτοῖς Ὅταν προσεύχησθε λέγετε Πάτερ ἡμῶν ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοις, ἁγιασθήτω τὸ ὄνομά σου ἐλθέτω ἡ βασιλεία σου γενηθήτω τὸ θέλημά σου ὡς ἐν οὐρανῳ, καὶ ἐπὶ τὴς γὴς"

The word there οὐρανοις, is ouranois, it is the dative plural of ouranos, that is "heavens" not "heaven". The use of the singular "heaven" in the Lord's Prayer is due to the way we've translated it into English; but literally the text reads, "Father of us in the heavens"

Though in Revelation 4:2 the word is οὐρανῷ is the dative singular.

Whether the plural or singular we aren't talking about a literal place, but describing God as present above all things, He is "in the heavens" but even more importantly He is beyond the heavens, beyond heaven, beyond even the highest of the heavens, as Solomon says.

-CryptoLutheran

Yet "father of us in the heavens" could very easily mean father in his abode in the sky. It could even mean another planet...the most likely abode out there. Yet you are certain it does not denote a place, can you give evidence of that "fact"

I'm just having a tough time with the Angels and God all just floating around out there somewhere randomly in outer space or even beyond. I believe there is a literal place.
 
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