I was slow in typing out my response. I was typing as you were posting.How did that answer this:
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I was slow in typing out my response. I was typing as you were posting.How did that answer this:
Another out-of-context proof text. All mankind is inherently "in Adam" because mankind is literally, physically descended from Adam, we have his DNA......All mankind is not inherently "in Christ." One must be "in Christ" to be saved by Him. This vs. does not say "by Adam all die, even so by Christ shall all be made alive" and it does not say "because of Adam all die, even so because Christ shall all be made alive"
I also wanted to comment on this--that you keep repeating. Universal Reconciliation is NOT heretical. It's believed to be the teaching of the early church. The Eastern Orthodox church has always held to the belief of Universal Reconciliation. It's also been the belief of the Franciscans (Gordon can probably elaborate better on that)......and it's never been deemed as heretical by the church. Eternal torment wasn't even introduced until about the sixth century.all of the proof texts that heterodox groups use to support their false teachings
But you are not simply believing what is written you continue to ignore the context of 1 Cor 3:9-17 trying to force it support universalism.
1 Corinthians 1:1-21 Cor. was written to the church at Corinth.
(1) Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
(2) Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
Vss. 3:9-17 are addressed to a specific group in the church, not all mankind; i.e. " labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building."
Trying to force this passage to be a proof text for universalism is totally false. The Corinthian church certainly could not have understood it that way.
.I don't know what a believer might be building that would make Paul say would be burned up but I can read the context and determine what he was saying and to whom he was saying it.
1 Corinthians 3 said:Brothers and sisters, I couldn’t talk to you like spiritual people but like unspiritual people, like babies in Christ. 2 I gave you milk to drink instead of solid food, because you weren’t up to it yet. 3 Now you are still not up to it because you are still unspiritual. When jealousy and fighting exist between you, aren’t you unspiritual and living by human standards?
1 Corinthians 3 said:Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly--mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans?
Brian Zahnd said:What does it mean to be saved? So what is God trying to do? What is God in Christ attempting to save? Parts of people for another place (actually a place that is no place, because it is non-spatial and non-temporal)? Is this the salvation of God? It’s certainly how Plato understood salvation. It’s exactly how he understood salvation. And make no mistake about it, this concept of salvation did not come from the Hebrew prophets or Christian apostles, it came from Plato. (And it doesn’t matter at all if you don’t know the first thing about Plato, it is the origin of this kind of dualism.) So forgive me for asking the obvious question, but what does a pagan Greek philosopher know about the salvation wrought by Yahweh?
True salvation is a Jewish style salvation.
Or as Jesus said it, “salvation is from the Jews.”
The salvation which the Jewish and Apostolic Scriptures speak of is not a final escape to a spiritualized, dualistic, postmortem, non-spatial, non-temporal, Platonist heaven. No! Instead, it is present, earthy and holds out hope for this world. This is why so many earthy elements are found in the salvation story: conception and birth, swaddling clothes and a manger, tears and sweat, bread and wine, wood and nails…and blood. The story of salvation in Messiah faithfully told is not the saving of spiritual parts for a spiritual place, but the saving of…us. Human beings in the totality of our humanness.
This is why God in Christ joined humanity, so that being human could be recovered. Sin has so damaged humanity as to essentially make life unlivable. But God through the Incarnation joined humanity to restore humanity.~https://brianzahnd.com/2009/04/life-made-livable/#more-266
Yes that is what we should do build entire doctrines on the assumption that all the churches mentioned in the NT had all or most of the NT, all of the proof texts that heterodox groups use to support their false teachings and when they heard or read the words of Paul in 1 Cor 3 e.g. they could just pull out their scrolls and look up James etc. We can just forget the fact that scrolls were expensive and only the rich could afford to own them.
.....I was thinking a little earlier why is it when the framers of the Constitution wrote "We the People of the United States" they clearly did not mean all the people in the world but when Paul wrote "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth vs. 1:1""we are labourers together with God: God's husbandry, God's building.vs. 3:9" he really meant all of mankind past, present and future including robbers, thieves, murderers etc.
.....Anyone can prove almost anything by quoting selective verses out-of-context. I can even prove that the Bible says "There is no God." Psalm 14 and 53.
This is the context.....from earlier in the letter:
I'm of the belief that no one "is saved" like an immediate event (unless you want to look at Jesus work on the cross as that "immediate event"). I haven't seen that in the Bible. It's a process (and I believe it's going to be an ongoing process long after we die--as we are far from perfect and holy....ALL of us).
Please show me where Paul specifically included all mankind in his letters to the churches?.....and see what's directed towards them....the church at Corinth (and everyone.....as I believe)....even though they're "still worldly".....and "unspiritual"....."not people that live by the Spirit" but "living in the flesh".....it's still said "they will be saved" [future tense] and "their carnal behavior is burned up"
When Paul wrote "all"....and "each one".Please show me where Paul specifically included all mankind in his letters to the churches?
mkgal said:....and see what's directed towards them....the church at Corinth (and everyone.....as I believe)....even though they're "still worldly".....and "unspiritual"....."not people that live by the Spirit" but "living in the flesh".....it's still said "they will be saved" [future tense] and "their carnal behavior is burned up"
Der Alter said:Please show me where Paul specifically included all mankind in his letters to the churches?
I have answered all of this multiple times. The only way to make 1 Cor 3:9-17 refer to all mankind is to ignore the context.When Paul wrote "all"....and "each one".
Show ME where he wrote something along the lines that distinguishes those verses to be specifically to them at Corinth (if something applies to them....why wouldn't it apply to ALL mankind)? As Clement wrote earlier....Paul could have written "those of you among us".....or "each of you"....but he wrote this instead:
For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
The problem was--there were two groups given credit to MEN (and dividing over it)....when the credit should go to God (that's the plot....the point Paul is making there--as I read it). That's a general statement---"no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid" (true today....just as it was true then)--that's not directed specifically to that group. "In the beginning was the Word....and the Word was with God...and the Word WAS God"--that's the "foundation".
Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
Any man = any man to me. I don't know how else to express that. There's nothing there that says, "to those that believe" (or something of that nature)......in FACT....Paul doesn't seem to use that language at all in this letter, he says they are "living in the flesh and not in the Spirit".
And....your compilation of verses that include "you are saved"? What do YOU glean from that. I don't see any indication that it's an "event" where we go from being "unsaved....unbelievers" to "saved" by reciting a prayer or something of that nature (as is commonly presented).
The same old rehashed internet fiction. Lots of folks seem to believe that if its on the internet it must be true. Please show me where the writer identified any specific writing by Paul, Clement of Alexandria, St. Gregory of Nyssa, Origen, and others he referred to. This is credible, verifiable, historical evidence links included. Among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.I also wanted to comment on this--that you keep repeating. Universal Reconciliation is NOT heretical. It's believed to be the teaching of the early church. The Eastern Orthodox church has always held to the belief of Universal Reconciliation. It's also been the belief of the Franciscans (Gordon can probably elaborate better on that)......and it's never been deemed as heretical by the church. Eternal torment wasn't even introduced until about the sixth century.
>>>>The doctrine of eternal torment was not a widely held view for the first five centuries after Christ, particularly in the early Eastern Church, the Church of the early apostles and Church fathers such as Paul, Clement of Alexandria, St. Gregory of Nyssa, Origen, and others. What we do see during this time is the expansion and proliferation of pagan myths about the afterlife, which were then repackaged as eternal, fiery torment in the Western (Catholic) Church, primarily by Latin theologians and Church leaders from Rome. It seems this was most likely motivated by political expediency. The idea of eternal torment was a prime tool for controlling the average churchgoer with fear and was congruent with secular mythologies of the time. Later, pop culture added fuel to the fire (pun intended) through imaginative works like Dante’s Inferno.How & When The Idea of Eternal Torment Invaded Church Doctrine - Brazen Church
And you have how many semesters of koine Greek, that you can make that grammatical argument? The passage clearly shows that "in Christ," vs. 9, means only those that "are Christ's" vs. 23.1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive... 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
v.22 doesn't say "in Christ" all are alive.
v.22 does say "in Christ" all shall be made alive.
You said, "One must be "in Christ" to be saved by Him."
The passage clearly shows that "in Christ," vs. 9, means only those that "are Christ's" vs. 23.
1 Corinthians 15:22-23
(22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
(23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Paul is only discussing “those that are Christ’s” (1Co_3:23; Gal_5:24) and so says nothing about judgment (cf. 1Th_2:19; 1Th_3:13; 1Th_4:15; 1Th_5:23).
Jesus Himself did not say that all men, excluding no one, will be made alive by Him.
Matthew 7:22-23
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Endlessly repeating the same false interpretation, while ignoring all evidence which proves it wrong, does not make it any less false. I would prefer to have a a rational discussion in which credible, verifiable, historical evidence is provided.AS in Adam ALL dieMt.2:6b ...my people Israel.
SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
BUT each in his own order:
1. Christ the Firstfruit;
2. Then they that are Christ's, at His coming;
3. Then cometh the end [order], WHEN He shall deliver
up the kingdom to God, even the Father; WHEN He shall
have abolished ALL rule and ALL authority and power.
For He must reign. TILL He hath put all His enemies
under His feet. THE LAST ENEMY THAT SHALL BE ABOLISHED
IS DEATH. (1 Cor. 15:22-26, R.V.).
AS in Adam ALL die
SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
....and that's much of the point. One can't prove something that's not there. The onus is on the one suggesting something IS there.Please show me where the writer identified any specific writing by Paul, Clement of Alexandria, St. Gregory of Nyssa, Origen, and others he referred to
People that are truly interested will do their own research, but this may be a good place to start:Please show me where the writer identified any specific writing by Paul, Clement of Alexandria, St. Gregory of Nyssa, Origen, and others he referred to
One should not make claims and assertions they cannot back up. Perhaps you could quote something from these specific sources you named which disprove eternal punishment, e.g. Paul, Clement of Alexandria, St. Gregory of Nyssa, Origen?I'd quoted this: "The doctrine of eternal torment was not a widely held view for the first five centuries after Christ, particularly in the early Eastern Church, the Church of the early apostles and Church fathers such as Paul, Clement of Alexandria, St. Gregory of Nyssa, Origen, and others."
and, you, Der Alter responded with:
....and that's much of the point. One can't prove something that's not there. The onus is on the one suggesting something IS there.
That a doctrine is not mentioned in all or even certain books does not invalidate it. Your objections are irrelevant. Argument from silence. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.If eternal torment or even annihilation were such a critical part (eternal life/death) of Christianity....then why don't we see Paul writing about it.....warning about it in his letters to the churches? What about John? Can you show me where John mentions hell? Even Genesis. If hell were the plan "from the beginning".....then why isn't it mentioned in Genesis?
Take a look at the whole chapter. It seems to me that when Paul is addressing the people of the Church at Corinth...he makes it clear by saying things like, "Don't YOU know that you are God's temple" (v 16)....and "don't fool yourself. If *some of you* think they are worldly-wise..."(v 18). Verse 21 says, "so then, no one should brag about human beings. (that sounds like a general statement....not only directed to them....but applies to ALL) Everything belongs to YOU--Paul, Apollos, Cephas, the world, life, death, things in the present, things in the future--everything belongs to YOU, but you belong to Christ, and Christ belongs to God."Der Alter said:Vss. 3:9-17 are addressed to a specific group in the church, not all mankind; i.e. " labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building."