New Heaven and Earth Discussion

parousia70 said:

Dartman said:

Your INTERPRETATION of this text doesn't match reality. History, and the daily news will PROVE; Jerusalem has been "trodden underfoot" of the Gentiles from 70AD through today.

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I'm not much for Newspaper eisegesis.

Can you stick to scripture?

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No, you don't get to dodge the reality test!
Jehovah Himself instituted it, and your INTERPRETATION of the text doesn't match reality!
Deut 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

parousia70 said:

So you are saying this verse was fulfilled at Pentecost?
Matthew 21:41
41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”
At what point during Pentecost were the scribes and Pharisees (those wicked men) "destroyed miserably"?

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Are you denying that the scribes and Pharisees were "destroyed miserably"??
Are you seeing in Matt 21:41 that Jesus is painted into this "that very day" corner of your design, and that Jesus isn't correct???
We are discussing a SERIES of events, that resulted in the destruction of the leadership of Israel.
It BEGAN with the founding of the Church, and wasn't complete until at LEAST 135AD... when the Romans fulfilled PART of Joel 3:2-3 .. for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. 3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.
Your attempt to limit the fulfillment of Christ's words to a single day, in spite of NO statement in the text to justify this rigid interpretation, is very poor exegesis.

claninja said:

God brought them out of the Babylonian exile as promised.

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The return from the Babylonian exile doesn't match the promises. The temple doesn't match, the division of the land of Israel explained in Eze 45 doesn't match. The prophecy in Zech 14 doesn't match, and your failure to address all those details, (and MANY more), is a give-away to the failure of your interpretation.

Your ONLY defense, so far, is YOUR INTERPRETATION of some imaginary conflict between the Law explained in the prophecies, and the New Testament. Sorry, Jehovah/YHVH God can change laws when He decides to do so... and has SEVERAL times in the past.

Duplicate created somehow... sorry.

Jesus has never reigned on Zion yet... but Psa 2, Psa 110, Isa 2, Zech 14, and many other texts say he will.
Jesus has never destroyed the kingdoms of the earth yet... but Daniel 2 and 7, and Rev 19, and many other texts, all record that he will.
The resurrected righteous have never been made "kings and priests" and appointed to "reign on the earth" with Jesus .... yet ... but Matt 19:28, Rev 2:26,27 and Rev 5:9,10 and Rev 20:4 all say that this WILL come to pass.
These things ALL must come to pass, BEFORE the "New Heavens, and the New Earth" Rev 21

Dartman said:

This corrects the error in your question. You claimed Paul stated "God will save everyone".

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I asked DO YOU THINK God will save everyone because of what Paul says in Romans 11:32. If you want mention verses outside of this passage that's fine, but you didn't say what YOU THINK.

claninja said:

I asked DO YOU THINK God will save everyone because of what Paul says in Romans 11:32. If you want mention verses outside of this passage that's fine, but you didn't say what YOU THINK.

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Paul does NOT state "God will save everyone"... if that doesn't answer your question then I will make it as clear as possible, I do NOT think God will save everyone because of what Paul says in Romans 11:32 ... or any other text. I think God will have Jesus destroy everyone whose name is not "written in the book of life".

Dartman said:

Paul does NOT state "God will save everyone"... if that doesn't answer your question then I will make it as clear as possible, I do NOT think God will save everyone because of what Paul says in Romans 11:32 ... or any other text. I think God will have Jesus destroy everyone whose name is not "written in the book of life".

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Thank you.

Tsquared said:

Revelation 21:1 says "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." Personally, I've always been intrigued by this verse. I know there is no clear/obvious answer in regards to what the purpose of the new earth is for, but I want to hear everyone's views and ideas on this subject. What thoughts do you have concerning this passage?

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The New earth is where we shall spend Eternity with Jesus in the awesome city called the New Jerusalem..

So thats an important purpose i think

Dartman said:

Your attempt to limit the fulfillment of Christ's words to a single day, in spite of NO statement in the text to justify this rigid interpretation, is very poor exegesis.

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Wait a minute... YOU are the one that stated it was fulfilled at Pentecost, not me.
I was asking YOU for clarification, as I found your claim of limiting the fulfillment to one day problematic.
Thank you for elaborating.

Are you denying that the scribes and Pharisees were "destroyed miserably"??

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Well, the text says:

40 “Therefore, when the lord of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

Just so I'm clear about your position, you believe this is already fulfilled??

You believe The Lord of the Vineyard CAME and personally destroyed the scribes and Pharisees sometime between Pentecost and 135 AD?

Dartman said:

The return from the Babylonian exile doesn't match the promises.

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Please explain

Dartman said:

The temple doesn't match, the division of the land of Israel explained in Eze 45 doesn't match.

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You are correct, this temple was never built, as it doesn't match Solomon's, Zerubbabel's, or Herod's. But you are missing a key point: Ezekiel 43:10-11. Ezekiel was to describe this temple to the house of Israel so that they may be ashamed of their sins. IF they are ashamed of their sins, THEN he may show them the details, plans, ordinances, and laws of this new temple. These instructions are given under the context of the OLD COVENANT, before the Cross. Israel never succeeded and only continued to fail under the old covenant, therefore this temple was never built. The old covenant passed away.

The passages you provided about the sin offerings are not in honor of Christ's sacrifice, they are for atonement in the context of the old covenant. You have not provided any evidence that believers will be required to make animal sacrifices for atonement in the new covenant. You still have not provided scripture that shows in the future, believers will be required to make animal sacrifices to honor Christ's sacrifice. This is the original question that you still continue to refuse to answer. You say this 3rd temple is about the future, therefore the sacrifices will restart in the future. You then neglect the perfect sacrifice of Christ and omit any new testament references that show there is no need for the blood of bulls or goats. By saying we will be required to sacrifice animals in the future, you belittle the sacrifice of Christ.

Dartman said:

The prophecy in Zech 14 doesn't match, and your failure to address all those details, (and MANY more), is a give-away to the failure of your interpretation.

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Never said my interpretations are perfect. I'm human and do not know all the secrets or mysteries. If I claim to, then I better do it in gentleness and love because otherwise it means nothing. There are many things that we don't know, but we do know that Christ fulfilled the law and prophets. Christ died for our sins. Christ was the perfect sacrifice once and for all. We know that animal sacrifices can never take away sins, but only remind us of them. Therefore after the cross, there is no need for any other blood atonement. To say there is, belittles the cross.

Dartman said:

Your ONLY defense, so far, is YOUR INTERPRETATION of some imaginary conflict between the Law explained in the prophecies, and the New Testament. Sorry, Jehovah/YHVH God can change laws when He decides to do so... and has SEVERAL times in the past.

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Saying "YOUR INTERPRETATION" is not the best way to go about in a debate. Everyone interprets scripture a little differently.
You still have not provided scripture to show why Christ's sacrifice was not enough and that we will be required to sacrifice animals again in the future. There is no imaginary conflict. The Law was a shadow of things to come Hebrews 10:1, the temple and sacrifices were just a copy of the heavenly things, with the heavenly things being much better Hebrews 9:23. There is no further need for animal sacrifices and burnt offerings. God desires mercy, not sacrifice. Go and learn what this means.

Dartman said:

Jesus has never reigned on Zion yet... but Psa 2, Psa 110, Isa 2, Zech 14, and many other texts say he will.
Jesus has never destroyed the kingdoms of the earth yet... but Daniel 2 and 7, and Rev 19, and many other texts, all record that he will.
The resurrected righteous have never been made "kings and priests" and appointed to "reign on the earth" with Jesus .... yet ... but Matt 19:28, Rev 2:26,27 and Rev 5:9,10 and Rev 20:4 all say that this WILL come to pass.
These things ALL must come to pass, BEFORE the "New Heavens, and the New Earth" Rev 21

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Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

Jesus has all authority. Jesus is the king of all heaven and earth. There is nothing that Jesus is not currently ruling.

parousia70 said:

Wait a minute... YOU are the one that stated it was fulfilled at Pentecost, not me.

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I said it BEGAN at Pentecost. YOU are the one that tried to limit the scope to JUST that day.

parousia70 said:

Well, the text says:

40 “Therefore, when the lord of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

Just so I'm clear about your position, you believe this is already fulfilled??

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I believe this is already fulfilled, and the fulfillment of that began on the day of Pentecost, and wasn't completed until after 135AD, when the Romans purged almost all Jews from Israel, and changed the name of that land to the fictional "Palestine" still being used today. At that point they were scattered to every nation under heaven (which had NEVER happened before!!! Not the Assyrian, or the Babylonian captivities) ;
Deut 28:64 And the Lord shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.
And, that scattering is JUST BEGINNING to be remedied, enough since 1967 to finally fulfill Zech 14, which requires Israel to be in control of Jerusalem;

Jehovah promised He would restore Israel;
Deuteronomy 30:3 That then Jehovah thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee.

parousia70 said:

You believe The Lord of the Vineyard CAME and personally destroyed the scribes and Pharisees sometime between Pentecost and 135 AD?

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Do you REALLY think that's the way prophecies are fulfilled???
When you have studied the Bible, you will find that Jehovah has used bees, earthquakes, pagan nations, prophets, wind, rain, quail, fish, worms, fire, disease, lions, bears, storms, snakes, droughts, angels, thunder, etc.
Your question is a transparent "straw man". Please be more courteous.

Dartman said:

Do you REALLY think that's the way prophecies are fulfilled???
When you have studied the Bible, you will find that Jehovah has used bees, earthquakes, pagan nations, prophets, wind, rain, quail, fish, worms, fire, disease, lions, bears, storms, snakes, droughts, angels, thunder, etc.
Your question is a transparent "straw man". Please be more courteous.

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Ahhh... so When Jesus said:
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matthew 24:30-31)

He meant Pagan Nations, bees, storms and snakes?

claninja said:

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

Jesus has all authority.

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Yes he does.

claninja said:

Jesus is the king of all heaven and earth. There is nothing that Jesus is not currently ruling.

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1) Not quite;
1 Cor 15:27,28 .. But when He saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Jehovah/YHVH God, who gave all authority to His servant Jesus, is the exception to this rule.
2) Jesus having the authority does NOT translate to Jesus destroying, and then ruling all nations yet... as the Scriptures describe, and explain repeatedly.
3) Jehovah's plan, which Jesus is executing, is carefully controlled, and includes man's free will, and Jehovah's own time table;
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

parousia70 said:

Dartman said:

Do you REALLY think that's the way prophecies are fulfilled???
When you have studied the Bible, you will find that Jehovah has used bees, earthquakes, pagan nations, prophets, wind, rain, quail, fish, worms, fire, disease, lions, bears, storms, snakes, droughts, angels, thunder, etc.
Your question is a transparent "straw man". Please be more courteous.

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Ahhh... so When Jesus said:
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matthew 24:30-31)

He meant Pagan Nations, bees, storms and snakes?

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Do you REALLY think that's the way prophecies are fulfilled???
When you have studied the Bible, you will find that Jehovah has used bees, earthquakes, pagan nations, prophets, wind, rain, quail, fish, worms, fire, disease, lions, bears, storms, snakes, droughts, angels, thunder, etc.
Your question is a transparent "straw man". Please be more courteous.

Dartman said:

Yes he does.

1) Not quite;
1 Cor 15:27,28 .. But when He saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Jehovah/YHVH God, who gave all authority to His servant Jesus, is the exception to this rule.
2) Jesus having the authority does NOT translate to Jesus destroying, and then ruling all nations yet... as the Scriptures describe, and explain repeatedly.
3) Jehovah's plan, which Jesus is executing, is carefully controlled, and includes man's free will, and Jehovah's own time table;
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

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So is Christ currently reigning or not?

claninja said:

Dartman said:

Yes he does.

1) Not quite;
1 Cor 15:27,28 .. But when He saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Jehovah/YHVH God, who gave all authority to His servant Jesus, is the exception to this rule.
2) Jesus having the authority does NOT translate to Jesus destroying, and then ruling all nations yet... as the Scriptures describe, and explain repeatedly.
3) Jehovah's plan, which Jesus is executing, is carefully controlled, and includes man's free will, and Jehovah's own time table;
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven,but my Father only.

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So is Christ currently reigning or not?

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Jesus was given all authority by his God about 2,000 years ago, and has been, and is currently, running things for his God, waiting for Jehovah to command him to return.
Jesus was NOT sent back to the earth, to begin his literal reign, as King of this planet, yet.
When he DOES return, EVERY eye will see him;
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Dartman said:

I believe this is already fulfilled, and the fulfillment of that began on the day of Pentecost, and wasn't completed until after 135AD, when the Romans purged almost all Jews from Israel, and changed the name of that land to the fictional "Palestine" still being used today. At that point they were scattered to every nation under heaven (which had NEVER happened before!!! Not the Assyrian, or the Babylonian captivities) ;
Deut 28:64 And the Lord shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.
And, that scattering is JUST BEGINNING to be remedied, enough since 1967 to finally fulfill Zech 14, which requires Israel to be in control of Jerusalem;

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So will they be scattered again after this future re gathering? Daniel 12 says Israel will face tribulation and then those who sleep in the dust will awake to everlasting life or contempt. Daniel then asks when these things will happen and the messenger responds in Daniel 12:7 : And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished."

Dartman said:

Jesus was given all authority by his God about 2,000 years ago, and has been, and is currently, running things for his God, waiting for Jehovah to command him to return.
Jesus was NOT sent back to the earth, to begin his literal reign, as King of this planet, yet.
When he DOES return, EVERY eye will see him;
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

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He is "running things"? This does not answer the question. Is he reigning or not?