Universalism...why not?

mkgal1 · Jun 22, 2017

ClementofA said:
How did that answer this:

I was slow in typing out my response. I was typing as you were posting.

ClementofA · Jun 22, 2017

Der Alter said:
Another out-of-context proof text. All mankind is inherently "in Adam" because mankind is literally, physically descended from Adam, we have his DNA.
.....All mankind is not inherently "in Christ." One must be "in Christ" to be saved by Him. This vs. does not say "by Adam all die, even so by Christ shall all be made alive" and it does not say "because of Adam all die, even so because Christ shall all be made alive"

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive... 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

v.22 doesn't say "in Christ" all are alive.

v.22 does say "in Christ" all shall be made alive.

You said, "One must be "in Christ" to be saved by Him."

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

mkgal1 · Jun 22, 2017

Der Alter said:
all of the proof texts that heterodox groups use to support their false teachings

I also wanted to comment on this--that you keep repeating. Universal Reconciliation is NOT heretical. It's believed to be the teaching of the early church. The Eastern Orthodox church has always held to the belief of Universal Reconciliation. It's also been the belief of the Franciscans (Gordon can probably elaborate better on that)......and it's never been deemed as heretical by the church. Eternal torment wasn't even introduced until about the sixth century.

>>>>The doctrine of eternal torment was not a widely held view for the first five centuries after Christ, particularly in the early Eastern Church, the Church of the early apostles and Church fathers such as Paul, Clement of Alexandria, St. Gregory of Nyssa, Origen, and others. What we do see during this time is the expansion and proliferation of pagan myths about the afterlife, which were then repackaged as eternal, fiery torment in the Western (Catholic) Church, primarily by Latin theologians and Church leaders from Rome. It seems this was most likely motivated by political expediency. The idea of eternal torment was a prime tool for controlling the average churchgoer with fear and was congruent with secular mythologies of the time. Later, pop culture added fuel to the fire (pun intended) through imaginative works like Dante’s Inferno.How & When The Idea of Eternal Torment Invaded Church Doctrine - Brazen Church

To read more:

ClementofA · Jun 22, 2017

Der Alter said:
But you are not simply believing what is written you continue to ignore the context of 1 Cor 3:9-17 trying to force it support universalism.

1 Corinthians 1:1-2
(1) Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
(2) Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
1 Cor. was written to the church at Corinth.

That doesn't stop it from talking *about* other peoples, other churches, angels, demons, false teachers, prostitutes, drunks, Apollos, Peter, all mankind & many other topics that are not talking *about* the "church of God which is at Corinth". Does it? Obviously not. So how are your quoted verses of 1 Corinthians 1-2 relevant to the topic?

Der Alter said:
Vss. 3:9-17 are addressed to a specific group in the church, not all mankind; i.e. " labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building."

Every verse & statement from verses 9-17 do *not* mention such. Here's over 5 verses with no mention of such things as you say:

10b But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Paul said "every man", not "every saint", not "every believer", not "every church member", not "every Christian", not "everyone of us", and not "every labourer", etc.

Der Alter said:
Trying to force this passage to be a proof text for universalism is totally false. The Corinthian church certainly could not have understood it that way.

Simply believe what is written:

Every man's work...shall be revealed by fire; v.13
the fire shall try every man's work v.13
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss v.15
but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. v.15

1 Corinthians 3 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1 Cor.13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing...
4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away...
13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive... 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

mkgal1 · Jun 22, 2017

Der Alter said:
.I don't know what a believer might be building that would make Paul say would be burned up but I can read the context and determine what he was saying and to whom he was saying it.

This is the context.....from earlier in the letter:

1 Corinthians 3 said:
Brothers and sisters, I couldn’t talk to you like spiritual people but like unspiritual people, like babies in Christ. 2 I gave you milk to drink instead of solid food, because you weren’t up to it yet. 3 Now you are still not up to it because you are still unspiritual. When jealousy and fighting exist between you, aren’t you unspiritual and living by human standards?

...another version reads:

1 Corinthians 3 said:
Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly--mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans?

I'm of the belief that no one "is saved" like an immediate event (unless you want to look at Jesus work on the cross as that "immediate event"). I haven't seen that in the Bible. It's a process (and I believe it's going to be an ongoing process long after we die--as we are far from perfect and holy....ALL of us).

.....and see what's directed towards them....the church at Corinth (and everyone.....as I believe)....even though they're "still worldly".....and "unspiritual"....."not people that live by the Spirit" but "living in the flesh".....it's still said "they will be saved" [future tense] and "their carnal behavior is burned up":

"If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire" (v 15)

mkgal1 · Jun 22, 2017

One more thing (for now

) ....I think the big question is, "what does it mean 'to be saved' and "made alive"?

I think Brian Zahnd explains that well, here:

Brian Zahnd said:
What does it mean to be saved? So what is God trying to do? What is God in Christ attempting to save? Parts of people for another place (actually a place that is no place, because it is non-spatial and non-temporal)? Is this the salvation of God? It’s certainly how Plato understood salvation. It’s exactly how he understood salvation. And make no mistake about it, this concept of salvation did not come from the Hebrew prophets or Christian apostles, it came from Plato. (And it doesn’t matter at all if you don’t know the first thing about Plato, it is the origin of this kind of dualism.) So forgive me for asking the obvious question, but what does a pagan Greek philosopher know about the salvation wrought by Yahweh?

True salvation is a Jewish style salvation.
Or as Jesus said it, “salvation is from the Jews.”

The salvation which the Jewish and Apostolic Scriptures speak of is not a final escape to a spiritualized, dualistic, postmortem, non-spatial, non-temporal, Platonist heaven. No! Instead, it is present, earthy and holds out hope for this world. This is why so many earthy elements are found in the salvation story: conception and birth, swaddling clothes and a manger, tears and sweat, bread and wine, wood and nails…and blood. The story of salvation in Messiah faithfully told is not the saving of spiritual parts for a spiritual place, but the saving of…us. Human beings in the totality of our humanness.

This is why God in Christ joined humanity, so that being human could be recovered. Sin has so damaged humanity as to essentially make life unlivable. But God through the Incarnation joined humanity to restore humanity.~https://brianzahnd.com/2009/04/life-made-livable/#more-266

gordonhooker · Jun 22, 2017

Der Alter said:
Yes that is what we should do build entire doctrines on the assumption that all the churches mentioned in the NT had all or most of the NT, all of the proof texts that heterodox groups use to support their false teachings and when they heard or read the words of Paul in 1 Cor 3 e.g. they could just pull out their scrolls and look up James etc. We can just forget the fact that scrolls were expensive and only the rich could afford to own them.
.....I was thinking a little earlier why is it when the framers of the Constitution wrote "We the People of the United States" they clearly did not mean all the people in the world but when Paul wrote "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth vs. 1:1""we are labourers together with God: God's husbandry, God's building.vs. 3:9" he really meant all of mankind past, present and future including robbers, thieves, murderers etc.
.....Anyone can prove almost anything by quoting selective verses out-of-context. I can even prove that the Bible says "There is no God." Psalm 14 and 53.

Wow now that was a great example of attacking the straw man. I stand by what I said.

There is nothing to say the James letter wasn't copied and sent to the church at Corinth either, if something is commonly known to the people of the time there is no need to confirm it to save arguments down the track.

Der Alte · Jun 22, 2017

mkgal1 said:
This is the context.....from earlier in the letter:

I'm of the belief that no one "is saved" like an immediate event (unless you want to look at Jesus work on the cross as that "immediate event"). I haven't seen that in the Bible. It's a process (and I believe it's going to be an ongoing process long after we die--as we are far from perfect and holy....ALL of us).

Romans 8:24
(24) For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
1 Corinthians 15:2
(2) By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
2 Timothy 1:9
(9) Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Titus 3:5
(5) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
1 Corinthians 1:18
(18) For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
2 Corinthians 2:15
(15) For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
Ephesians 2:5
(5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Ephesians 2:8
(8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

.....and see what's directed towards them....the church at Corinth (and everyone.....as I believe)....even though they're "still worldly".....and "unspiritual"....."not people that live by the Spirit" but "living in the flesh".....it's still said "they will be saved" [future tense] and "their carnal behavior is burned up"

Please show me where Paul specifically included all mankind in his letters to the churches?

1 Corinthians 1:2
(2) Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
1 Corinthians 1:30
(30) But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1 Cornthians 2:14
(14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 11:18
(18) For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
1 Corinthians 12:28
(28) And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1 Corinthians 14:4
(4) He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
1 Corinthians 14:5
(5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
1 Corinthians 14:12
(12) Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
1 Corinthians 14:19
(19) Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
1Co 14:23
(23) If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
1Co 14:28
(28) But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

mkgal1 · Jun 22, 2017

Der Alter said:
Please show me where Paul specifically included all mankind in his letters to the churches?

When Paul wrote "all"....and "each one".

Show ME where he wrote something along the lines that distinguishes those verses to be specifically to them at Corinth (if something applies to them....why wouldn't it apply to ALL mankind)? As Clement wrote earlier....Paul could have written "those of you among us".....or "each of you"....but he wrote this instead:

For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

The problem was--there were two groups given credit to MEN (and dividing over it)....when the credit should go to God (that's the plot....the point Paul is making there--as I read it). That's a general statement---"no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid" (true today....just as it was true then)--that's not directed specifically to that group. "In the beginning was the Word....and the Word was with God...and the Word WAS God"--that's the "foundation".

Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.

Any man = any man to me. I don't know how else to express that. There's nothing there that says, "to those that believe" (or something of that nature)......in FACT....Paul doesn't seem to use that language at all in this letter, he says they are "living in the flesh and not in the Spirit".

And....your compilation of verses that include "you are saved"? What do YOU glean from that. I don't see any indication that it's an "event" where we go from being "unsaved....unbelievers" to "saved" by reciting a prayer or something of that nature (as is commonly presented).

mkgal1 · Jun 22, 2017

Just complicated things--

mkgal1 · Jun 22, 2017

I had written:

mkgal said:
....and see what's directed towards them....the church at Corinth (and everyone.....as I believe)....even though they're "still worldly".....and "unspiritual"....."not people that live by the Spirit" but "living in the flesh".....it's still said "they will be saved" [future tense] and "their carnal behavior is burned up"

and you responded with:

Der Alter said:
Please show me where Paul specifically included all mankind in his letters to the churches?

I even left room for this to be ONLY about them in Corinth...and pointed out that Paul had described them as "still worldly" and "unspiritual". Instead of responding to what I wrote.....you repeated what you've already posted (dismissing my point). Perhaps you are just missing my point all together there... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Der Alte · Jun 22, 2017

mkgal1 said:
When Paul wrote "all"....and "each one".
Show ME where he wrote something along the lines that distinguishes those verses to be specifically to them at Corinth (if something applies to them....why wouldn't it apply to ALL mankind)? As Clement wrote earlier....Paul could have written "those of you among us".....or "each of you"....but he wrote this instead:
For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
The problem was--there were two groups given credit to MEN (and dividing over it)....when the credit should go to God (that's the plot....the point Paul is making there--as I read it). That's a general statement---"no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid" (true today....just as it was true then)--that's not directed specifically to that group. "In the beginning was the Word....and the Word was with God...and the Word WAS God"--that's the "foundation".
Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
Any man = any man to me. I don't know how else to express that. There's nothing there that says, "to those that believe" (or something of that nature)......in FACT....Paul doesn't seem to use that language at all in this letter, he says they are "living in the flesh and not in the Spirit".
And....your compilation of verses that include "you are saved"? What do YOU glean from that. I don't see any indication that it's an "event" where we go from being "unsaved....unbelievers" to "saved" by reciting a prayer or something of that nature (as is commonly presented).

I have answered all of this multiple times. The only way to make 1 Cor 3:9-17 refer to all mankind is to ignore the context.
.....Paul introduced that passage with the words "we are laborers together with God: God's husbandry, God's building.vs. 9" and concludes it with ""Know you not that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? vs. 16" That identifies a specific group it does not say all mankind. All mankind are not workers together with God and all mankind are not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. But some folks desperately trying to prop up Universalism ignore the context and try to make everything between vs. 9 and vs. 17 about all mankind.

Der Alte · Jun 22, 2017

mkgal1 said:
I also wanted to comment on this--that you keep repeating. Universal Reconciliation is NOT heretical. It's believed to be the teaching of the early church. The Eastern Orthodox church has always held to the belief of Universal Reconciliation. It's also been the belief of the Franciscans (Gordon can probably elaborate better on that)......and it's never been deemed as heretical by the church. Eternal torment wasn't even introduced until about the sixth century.
>>>>The doctrine of eternal torment was not a widely held view for the first five centuries after Christ, particularly in the early Eastern Church, the Church of the early apostles and Church fathers such as Paul, Clement of Alexandria, St. Gregory of Nyssa, Origen, and others. What we do see during this time is the expansion and proliferation of pagan myths about the afterlife, which were then repackaged as eternal, fiery torment in the Western (Catholic) Church, primarily by Latin theologians and Church leaders from Rome. It seems this was most likely motivated by political expediency. The idea of eternal torment was a prime tool for controlling the average churchgoer with fear and was congruent with secular mythologies of the time. Later, pop culture added fuel to the fire (pun intended) through imaginative works like Dante’s Inferno.How & When The Idea of Eternal Torment Invaded Church Doctrine - Brazen Church

The same old rehashed internet fiction. Lots of folks seem to believe that if its on the internet it must be true. Please show me where the writer identified any specific writing by Paul, Clement of Alexandria, St. Gregory of Nyssa, Origen, and others he referred to. This is credible, verifiable, historical evidence links included. Among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);

Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
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Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

When Jesus taught about,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
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The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/

There is a valley near Jerusalem which found to have been used as a trash dump by archaeological studies. But it was not the valley of Hinnom it was the Kidron valley. Evidence available on request.

Der Alte · Jun 22, 2017

ClementofA said:
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive... 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
v.22 doesn't say "in Christ" all are alive.
v.22 does say "in Christ" all shall be made alive.
You said, "One must be "in Christ" to be saved by Him."

And you have how many semesters of koine Greek, that you can make that grammatical argument? The passage clearly shows that "in Christ," vs. 9, means only those that "are Christ's" vs. 23.
1 Corinthians 15:22-23
(22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
(23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible.1 Cor 15:22
now it is of the former the apostle here speaks, and expresses by being made alive: and the sense is, that as all that were in Adam, all that belonged to him, all his natural seed and posterity, all to whom he was a federal head, died in him, became mortal, and subject to death through him; so all that are in Christ, that belong to him, who are his spiritual seed and offspring, to whom he is a covenant head, and representative, shall be raised to an immortal life by him; or as all the elect of God died in Adam, so shall they all be quickened, or raised to life in and by Christ.
Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible 1 Cor 15:22
But the meaning is not that, as all men died in Adam, so all men, without exception, shall be made alive in Christ; for the scope of the apostle's argument restrains the general meaning. Christ rose as the first-fruits; therefore those that are Christ's (1Co_15:23) shall rise too. Hence it will not follow that all men without exception shall rise too;
A. T. Robertson Word Pictures in the NT 1 Cor 15:23
Paul is only discussing “those that are Christ’s” (1Co_3:23; Gal_5:24) and so says nothing about judgment (cf. 1Th_2:19; 1Th_3:13; 1Th_4:15; 1Th_5:23).

Jesus Himself did not say that all men, excluding no one, will be made alive by Him.

Matthew 7:22-23
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

ClementofA · Jun 22, 2017

Der Alter said:
The passage clearly shows that "in Christ," vs. 9, means only those that "are Christ's" vs. 23.
1 Corinthians 15:22-23
(22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
(23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

AS in Adam ALL die
SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
BUT each in his own order:

1. Christ the Firstfruit;

2. Then they that are Christ's, at His coming;

3. Then cometh the end [order], WHEN He shall deliver
up the kingdom to God, even the Father; WHEN He shall
have abolished ALL rule and ALL authority and power.
For He must reign. TILL He hath put all His enemies
under His feet. THE LAST ENEMY THAT SHALL BE ABOLISHED
IS DEATH. (1 Cor. 15:22-26, R.V.).

As in Adam all die

Der Alter said:
Paul is only discussing “those that are Christ’s” (1Co_3:23; Gal_5:24) and so says nothing about judgment (cf. 1Th_2:19; 1Th_3:13; 1Th_4:15; 1Th_5:23).

AS in Adam ALL die
SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

Der Alter said:
Jesus Himself did not say that all men, excluding no one, will be made alive by Him.

Matthew 7:22-23
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Der Alte · Jun 23, 2017

ClementofA said:
AS in Adam ALL die
SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
BUT each in his own order:
1. Christ the Firstfruit;
2. Then they that are Christ's, at His coming;
3. Then cometh the end [order], WHEN He shall deliver
up the kingdom to God, even the Father; WHEN He shall
have abolished ALL rule and ALL authority and power.
For He must reign. TILL He hath put all His enemies
under His feet. THE LAST ENEMY THAT SHALL BE ABOLISHED
IS DEATH. (1 Cor. 15:22-26, R.V.).
AS in Adam ALL die
SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

Endlessly repeating the same false interpretation, while ignoring all evidence which proves it wrong, does not make it any less false. I would prefer to have a a rational discussion in which credible, verifiable, historical evidence is provided.

mkgal1 · Jun 23, 2017

I'd quoted this: "The doctrine of eternal torment was not a widely held view for the first five centuries after Christ, particularly in the early Eastern Church, the Church of the early apostles and Church fathers such as Paul, Clement of Alexandria, St. Gregory of Nyssa, Origen, and others."

and, you, Der Alter responded with:

Der Alter said:
Please show me where the writer identified any specific writing by Paul, Clement of Alexandria, St. Gregory of Nyssa, Origen, and others he referred to

....and that's much of the point. One can't prove something that's not there. The onus is on the one suggesting something IS there.

If eternal torment or even annihilation were such a critical part (eternal life/death) of Christianity....then why don't we see Paul writing about it.....warning about it in his letters to the churches? What about John? Can you show me where John mentions hell? Even Genesis. If hell were the plan "from the beginning".....then why isn't it mentioned in Genesis?

mkgal1 · Jun 23, 2017

Der Alter said:
Please show me where the writer identified any specific writing by Paul, Clement of Alexandria, St. Gregory of Nyssa, Origen, and others he referred to

People that are truly interested will do their own research, but this may be a good place to start:
Isaac of Syria - OrthodoxWiki
Clement of Alexandria - OrthodoxWiki
Origen - OrthodoxWiki

Der Alte · Jun 23, 2017

mkgal1 said:
I'd quoted this: "The doctrine of eternal torment was not a widely held view for the first five centuries after Christ, particularly in the early Eastern Church, the Church of the early apostles and Church fathers such as Paul, Clement of Alexandria, St. Gregory of Nyssa, Origen, and others."
and, you, Der Alter responded with:
....and that's much of the point. One can't prove something that's not there. The onus is on the one suggesting something IS there.

One should not make claims and assertions they cannot back up. Perhaps you could quote something from these specific sources you named which disprove eternal punishment, e.g. Paul, Clement of Alexandria, St. Gregory of Nyssa, Origen?

If eternal torment or even annihilation were such a critical part (eternal life/death) of Christianity....then why don't we see Paul writing about it.....warning about it in his letters to the churches? What about John? Can you show me where John mentions hell? Even Genesis. If hell were the plan "from the beginning".....then why isn't it mentioned in Genesis?

That a doctrine is not mentioned in all or even certain books does not invalidate it. Your objections are irrelevant. Argument from silence. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom. Here quoted from two historical Jewish sources.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);

Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
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Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

When Jesus taught about,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
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The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism

mkgal1 · Jun 23, 2017

Der Alter said:
Vss. 3:9-17 are addressed to a specific group in the church, not all mankind; i.e. " labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building."

Take a look at the whole chapter. It seems to me that when Paul is addressing the people of the Church at Corinth...he makes it clear by saying things like, "Don't YOU know that you are God's temple" (v 16)....and "don't fool yourself. If *some of you* think they are worldly-wise..."(v 18). Verse 21 says, "so then, no one should brag about human beings. (that sounds like a general statement....not only directed to them....but applies to ALL) Everything belongs to YOU--Paul, Apollos, Cephas, the world, life, death, things in the present, things in the future--everything belongs to YOU, but you belong to Christ, and Christ belongs to God."

Going through the entire chapter, it seems to me that when Paul meant something directly, he specified....when he meant something generally, it's clear by the language of ALL, each one, every man....etc.

Universalism...why not?

Which is it?

God doesn't want all men to be saved.

God can't do what he wants to do.

Neither, God will continue to work on unrepentant souls because his love & patience are unending.

Don't know...never thought about this before.

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Well-Known Member

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Well-Known Member

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Franciscan tssf

This is me about 1 yr. old.

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

This is me about 1 yr. old.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old.

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

This is me about 1 yr. old.

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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