Eternal Torment, Annihilation or Universal Reconciliation?

Which one do you believe will happen at the final punishment?

  • Eternal Torment

    Votes: 33 42.3%
  • Annihilation

    Votes: 16 20.5%
  • Universal Reconciliation

    Votes: 10 12.8%
  • Probably annihilation but still hopeful of universal reconciliation

    Votes: 5 6.4%
  • Not sure

    Votes: 10 12.8%
  • Other

    Votes: 4 5.1%

  • Total voters
    78

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private

Right do as most universalists do, seek out the writings of universalists ONLY whether they have any qualifications in any relevant field or not.

Who did the 12 follow, Jesus or those (Pharisees) with "qualifications"?

And accept anything and everything they say as if Moses had carried it down from Mt Sinai, without verifying anything for themselves.

I'm not omniscient so will leave that to God to judge.

As I said before I am no expert but I started learning to speak Greek the year that Elvis and I were stationed in Germany

Elvis. LOL.

Don't demand of me what you cannot or will not do yourself.

Who demanded? I simply point out facts. What you do with them is up to you.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf


"The Third Law of Theology: For every theologian there is an equal and opposite theologian."
τὸ σχῆμα τῆς ἰδέας
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,575
6,063
EST
✟991,946.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Who did the 12 follow, Jesus or those (Pharisees) with "qualifications"?
Do you realize how ridiculous this argument is? Are you comparing all those guys you quote from tentmakers to Jesus?
I'm not omniscient so will leave that to God to judge.
How does that respond to what I said? And accept anything and everything they say as if Moses had carried it down from Mt Sinai, without verifying anything for themselves.
Elvis. LOL.
Yep! My first of 3 tours in Germany was the same year Elvis was there. Just a time reference. Our units were at the main training base Grafenwoehr once at the same time but I never saw him. Met some guys in his unit. I could have said the year of Sputnik 1 but that wouldn't register with people under 50.
Who demanded? I simply point out facts. What you do with them is up to you.
You have no facts! This is what you keep demanding "Have you ever even read them in anything but the prejudiced English renderings of a single individual's POV?" Have you read anything but the prejudiced, biased single individual universalist writers you keep quoting? Once again do not demand of others what you refuse to do yourself.

Προκατειλημμένες αγγλικές απεικονίσεις ενός ατόμου
 
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Do you realize how ridiculous this argument is? Are you comparing all those guys you quote from tentmakers to Jesus?

You made a comment that spoke of qualifications. I said:

Who did the 12 follow, Jesus or those (Pharisees) with "qualifications"?

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,575
6,063
EST
✟991,946.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
You made a comment that spoke of qualifications. I said:
Who did the 12 follow, Jesus or those (Pharisees) with "qualifications"?...
And your response is still ridiculous comparing your following the writers at tentmakers to the disciples following Jesus.
 
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
And your response is still ridiculous comparing your following the writers at tentmakers to the disciples following Jesus.

I didn't mention any website. Neither did your comment that mine was addressed to.

Who did the 12 follow, Jesus or those (Pharisees) with "qualifications"?
 
Upvote 0

Butch5

Newbie
Supporter
Apr 7, 2012
8,932
767
62
Homer Georgia
Visit site
✟308,497.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Which one do you believe will happen at the final punishment?

A fire that torments, a fire that consumes or a fire that purifies?

The three main views are eternal conscious torment where the unrepentant are tormented by the fire for all eternity, annihilation where the unrepentant are punished according to wrongs committed and then annihilated by the fire, and universal reconciliation where the unrepentant go through a fire that burns impurities away leading to eventual repentance and reconciliation.

edit to add: So far almost 50% of the people in this vote have voted "eternal conscious torment." Can you explain how that view of God is different than say a father who tells his child he must love him back and if not, he will lock him in the back room away from him and he assures his child that this will be like being tormented in flames?

The Eternal Conscious Torment doctrine is not a Scriptural one. It is derived by taking a few select passages out of context. It also presupposes the "Immortal Soul" doctrine which likewise isn't Biblical
 
Upvote 0

Halbhh

Everything You say is Life to me
Supporter
Mar 17, 2015
17,173
9,191
catholic -- embracing all Christians
✟1,152,595.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Which one do you believe will happen at the final punishment?

A fire that torments, a fire that consumes or a fire that purifies?

The three main views are eternal conscious torment where the unrepentant are tormented by the fire for all eternity, annihilation where the unrepentant are punished according to wrongs committed and then annihilated by the fire, and universal reconciliation where the unrepentant go through a fire that burns impurities away leading to eventual repentance and reconciliation.

edit to add: So far almost 50% of the people in this vote have voted "eternal conscious torment." Can you explain how that view of God is different than say a father who tells his child he must love him back and if not, he will lock him in the back room away from him and he assures his child that this will be like being tormented in flames?

I'm just now remembering Christ's exact words in John 3:16, that we can receive eternal life and not "perish".

He said to fear only Him Who can "destroy both body and soul".

You know, to perish would be an eternal punishment.

Perhaps already immortal angels would endure in that lake of fire forever, but could those #not# given eternal life?
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,575
6,063
EST
✟991,946.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The Eternal Conscious Torment doctrine is not a Scriptural one. It is derived by taking a few select passages out of context. It also presupposes the "Immortal Soul" doctrine which likewise isn't Biblical
We appreciate people sharing their unsupported personal opinions. But I prefer to see credible, verifiable, historical evidence for the claims made here.
In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isaiah 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative. The Hebrew word משׁל/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.

Here is another passage where God Himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.

22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Ezekiel 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
Then we have the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke. Both die and in hades the rich man lifts up his eyes and see Lazarus in Abraham's bosom. That is a position not a place. Rich man asked for a little water, Abraham told him that those where he was could not cross the great chasm between them and those in hades could not cross to the place where Abraham was.
......And anticipating the usual objection the Lazarus story is not introduced as a parable, Jesus does not explain it later to his disciples. All of the recognized parables refer to anonymous people e.g. a certain widow, a certain shepherd, a certain rich man etc. In the parables Jesus compares normal every day things and events with the kingdom of heaven. For example "the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field;"
......What is the normal every day event or thing in the Lazarus story? A beggar begging and a rich man living lavishly. In what way is this "like unto" what follows?
......Lastly at sometime in history a widow lost money, a shepherd lost sheep, a wayward son squandered his inheritance, wedding guests did not prepare etc. Jesus could legitimately use these as examples. Unlike the recognized parables the Lazarus story is not anonymous, two people are named, Lazarus and Abraham, an actual historical person. If Abraham was not in the place Jesus said said and did not say the words Jesus quoted Jesus was a liar.
......All of the early church fathers who quote or refer to Lazarus and the rich man considered it factual.

• Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, 120-202 AD, was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position , and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
• Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection.
This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
• Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality . For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
• Tertullian Part First [A.D. 145-220.]
9. A Treatise On The Soul Chapter 57
Moreover, the fact that Hades is not in any case opened for (the escape of) any soul , has been firmly established by the Lord in the person of Abraham, in His representation of the poor man at rest and the rich man in torment.
• The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
• Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah [A.D. 260-312]
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,575
6,063
EST
✟991,946.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I didn't mention any website. Neither did your comment that mine was addressed to.
Who did the 12 follow, Jesus or those (Pharisees) with "qualifications"?
Yes you did mention a website in your post #243 where you first mentioned "qualifications."
 
Upvote 0

Butch5

Newbie
Supporter
Apr 7, 2012
8,932
767
62
Homer Georgia
Visit site
✟308,497.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
We appreciate people sharing their unsupported personal opinions. But I prefer to see credible, verifiable, historical evidence for the claims made here.
In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isaiah 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative. The Hebrew word משׁל/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.

Here is another passage where God Himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.

22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Ezekiel 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
Then we have the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke. Both die and in hades the rich man lifts up his eyes and see Lazarus in Abraham's bosom. That is a position not a place. Rich man asked for a little water, Abraham told him that those where he was could not cross the great chasm between them and those in hades could not cross to the place where Abraham was.
......And anticipating the usual objection the Lazarus story is not introduced as a parable, Jesus does not explain it later to his disciples. All of the recognized parables refer to anonymous people e.g. a certain widow, a certain shepherd, a certain rich man etc. In the parables Jesus compares normal every day things and events with the kingdom of heaven. For example "the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field;"
......What is the normal every day event or thing in the Lazarus story? A beggar begging and a rich man living lavishly. In what way is this "like unto" what follows?
......Lastly at sometime in history a widow lost money, a shepherd lost sheep, a wayward son squandered his inheritance, wedding guests did not prepare etc. Jesus could legitimately use these as examples. Unlike the recognized parables the Lazarus story is not anonymous, two people are named, Lazarus and Abraham, an actual historical person. If Abraham was not in the place Jesus said said and did not say the words Jesus quoted Jesus was a liar.
......All of the early church fathers who quote or refer to Lazarus and the rich man considered it factual.

• Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, 120-202 AD, was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position , and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
• Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection.
This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
• Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality . For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
• Tertullian Part First [A.D. 145-220.]
9. A Treatise On The Soul Chapter 57
Moreover, the fact that Hades is not in any case opened for (the escape of) any soul , has been firmly established by the Lord in the person of Abraham, in His representation of the poor man at rest and the rich man in torment.
• The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
• Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah [A.D. 260-312]
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.

I've already given you plenty of verifiable evidence. If you choose to reject it and take figurative language literally that is your prerogative.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Then we have the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke. Both die and in hades the rich man lifts up his eyes and see Lazarus in Abraham's bosom. That is a position not a place. Rich man asked for a little water, Abraham told him that those where he was could not cross the great chasm between them and those in hades could not cross to the place where Abraham was.
..

In any case, the duration, nature & purpose of the torments the rich man was suffering are not revealed in this story. His torments there could have lasted less than 5 minutes.

"If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in the nether-world (Sheol/Hades/hell), behold, Thou art there." (Psalm 139:8)

We are told the rich man requested water. He seemed to think a few drops of water would ease his sufferings. Apparently this isn't served in "hell" (Hades), but whether or not alcohol & morphine is on the menu is not revealed. After all, God is omnipresent.

Luke 16:27-28 seems to show the rich man's concern for others. Perhaps he was beginning to have a change of heart. Supposedly that is the purpose of those in Hades recieving the word of the Lord, in this case via Abraham.

So does this story do more harm than good for the endless tormenting god position, even if taken literally?

Your version quoted speaks of a great gulf fixed stopping the transfer of persons from one place to the other place. It does not say this gulf will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Possibly the chasm barrier refers to the unrepentant state of those in Hades, & that once they repent the barrier stopping any individual from leaving is removed. Nor does the passage deny the possibility of salvation to the rich man in Hades while he remains there.

According to the Jews (Pharisees) you love to quote thinking it supports your views, many of the wicked who descend to Gehenna/hell will come up again. Does this passage disprove what the Jews said? Or do you still say that Jesus never contradicted their beliefs?

Any proof that the story of the rich man & Lazarus disproves universalism is absent from your post.

They get out of "hell" (Luke 16:19-31) in Revelation 20:11-15, if not sooner.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,575
6,063
EST
✟991,946.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
In any case, the duration, nature & purpose of the torments the rich man was suffering are not revealed in this story. His torments there could have lasted less than 5 minutes....
You keep making the same comments and arguments after I have already addressed them.
Luke 16:26
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
People on the bad side cannot cross over to the good side and people on the good side cannot cross over to the bad side. If the rich man's torment only lasted five minutes where did he go when it ended?
.....If this is a parable as some people argue and supposedly the rich man represents the kingdom being taken away from the Jews. And Lazarus supposedly represents the gentiles, although I can't figure out why a gentile would have a Jewish name, and the kingdom was given to the gentiles. That would mean that Jews could never become Christians. But Paul said,

Romans 11:23-24
(23) And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
(24) For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?



 
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
If the rich man's torment only lasted five minutes where did he go when it ended?
....

AFAIK the Bible doesn't give that information.

Fear not, said the angel who announced it, for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Luke 2:10.

Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. Luke 2:14.

But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Luke 6:35

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
Upvote 0

Butch5

Newbie
Supporter
Apr 7, 2012
8,932
767
62
Homer Georgia
Visit site
✟308,497.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
AFAIK the Bible doesn't give that information.

Fear not, said the angel who announced it, for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Luke 2:10.

Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. Luke 2:14.

But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Luke 6:35

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

He didn't go anywhere. It's a parable.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,575
6,063
EST
✟991,946.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
He didn't go anywhere. It's a parable.
All of the ECF who quote the story of Lazarus and the rich man considered it to be factual.
• Irenaeus [120-202 AD] Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning. [was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.]
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.
Link: ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
• Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1 Chaper 11
On the Resurrection.“There was a certain man,” said the Lord, narrating, “very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day.” This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
• Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.] Part First
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
• The Epistles Of Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
A good man out of the good treasure bringeth forth good things; and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.” Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
• Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah (A.D. 260-312)
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.
 
Upvote 0

Butch5

Newbie
Supporter
Apr 7, 2012
8,932
767
62
Homer Georgia
Visit site
✟308,497.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
All of the ECF who quote the story of Lazarus and the rich man considered it to be factual.
• Irenaeus [120-202 AD] Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning. [was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.]
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.
Link: ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
• Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1 Chaper 11
On the Resurrection.“There was a certain man,” said the Lord, narrating, “very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day.” This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
• Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.] Part First
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
• The Epistles Of Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
A good man out of the good treasure bringeth forth good things; and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.” Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
• Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah (A.D. 260-312)
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.

All this show is what they believed. It doesn't prove it's factual.
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,575
6,063
EST
✟991,946.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
All this show is what they believed. It doesn't prove it's factual.
Yep, all the early church fathers were wrong and the church has been wrong for ca. 2000 years +/- until some folks came along who don't know an Aorist from an aardvark or a hithpael from a hatpin came up with the true truth. The ECF are right until proven wrong.
.....As I said before in all the undisputed parables Jesus used ordinary, everyday things and events to introduce or explain a Biblical truth e.g. lost sheep, lost coins, wayward son who squanders his money, unprepared wedding guests etc. nothing that was not within the experience of His audience.
.....These things/events could legitimately be used as illustrations because sometime in history a shepherd found a lost sheep, a widow found a lost coin, a wayward son returned home etc.
.....Jesus did not introduce the story of Lazarus/rich man as a parable and He did not explain it later to His disciples. The only thing Jesus' audience was familiar with was a beggar begging and a rich man living lavishly, so what is the ordinary everyday event that Jesus refers to that the kingdom of heaven is like unto?
.....In all of the undisputed parables Jesus referred to anonymous persons, "a certain man,"'a certain rich man,""a certain widow" etc. The Lazarus/rich man story is not anonymous, two persons are named Lazarus and Abraham who was an actual historical person. If Abraham was not in the place Jesus mentioned and did not say the words Jesus quoted, then Jesus was a liar.

 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Dartman

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2017
1,311
221
71
Washington
✟27,191.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
..
.....If this is a parable as some people argue and supposedly the rich man represents the kingdom being taken away from the Jews. And Lazarus supposedly represents the gentiles, although I can't figure out why a gentile would have a Jewish name, and the kingdom was given to the gentiles. That would mean that Jews could never become Christians.
No, it means that any Jew wanting salvation, MUST accept the "one that rose from the dead".
Der Alter said:
But Paul said,
Romans 11:23-24
(23) And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
(24) For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?




Note.... they MUST be grafted back in .... they WERE in before;
John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what, we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.
 
Upvote 0