Immaculate Conception

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4x4toy

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Hello,

I don't come from a Catholic background, and would appreciate hearing some of the scriptures and church doctrine that outlines the immaculate conception. It's a topic of which I am fairly ignorant, and even the purpose of the doctrine (as I understand it) is probably off-base.

Thank you, and God bless

Me too Bro
Jesus is using His mother as a model because she did the will of God. She said "yes". There is a unity with those who do the will of God and Mary who did the will of God perfectly. You are trying to make a dichotomy between the whole crowd and My brother and sister and mother.” There is no dichotomy. It's one family who does the will of God. These verses don't diminish Mary at all, they elevate obedient believers to her status when they obey God like she did. That's what Marian devotion is for, to help us do the will of God. They are not the "gotcha" verses anti-Catholics think they are.

Furthermore, if Jesus was slighting His mother, He would be violating the 4th Commandment: Honor your parents.


Why were Jesus Mother and brothers come for him in the first place ? Mark 3:20-21

The 4th Catholic or 5th original commandment written by the finger of God in the Torah to honor your mother and father means more that you bring honor to them by your way of life in regard to God .. Bring honor to them whether they are alive or deceased .. Even stand up to them if they are not saved to do the right thing ..
 
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4x4toy

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Me too Bro



Why were Jesus Mother and brothers come for him in the first place ? Mark 3:20-21

The 4th Catholic or 5th original commandment written by the finger of God in the Torah to honor your mother and father means more that you bring honor to them by your way of life in regard to God .. Bring honor to them whether they are alive or deceased .. Even stand up to them if they are not saved to do the right thing ..


Well I made a mistake, somehow I got another translation besides the KJV Mark 3:20-21 ^_^
 
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Mary of Bethany

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Orthodox wiki on Immaculate Conception.
"Most Orthodox reject the dogma of the Immaculate Conception as unnecessary..
Orthodoxy does not see ancestral sin as an inheritance of guilt or a stain, so there is no reason for the miraculous removal of either."

Also because we believe The Theotokos would not have received any "preferential treatment" that separated her from the rest of us humans.
 
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prodromos

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Whether or not Mary died is not doctrinal, and Catholics are free to accept either one.
Mary's death was a feast day celebrated in the liturgy both East and West. That is absolutely doctrinal
Even though Aquinas did not claim that Mary was sanctified from the moment of her conception, he did claim that she was sanctified before her birth, and so never committed personal sin (for unborn children commit no personal sin.

Thus you should never tolerate someone to say that Aquinas endorsed the idea that Mary was sinful. He absolutely and unequivocally did not, and you should ask any Protestant/Orthodox who says this whether he has actually read what Aquinas said on the subject or whether he is repeating erroneous claims made in anti-Catholic sources. If he is doing the latter, he is repeating gossip. If he is doing the former, and really does know what Aquinas said, then he is being deceptive.
Aquinas on the Immaculate Conception
Nice strawman. Did Aquinas oppose the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception or not?
 
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kepha31

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Mary's death was a feast day celebrated in the liturgy both East and West. That is absolutely doctrinal

Nice strawman. Did Aquinas oppose the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception or not?
No. His quote is on the link you ignored.

Here is what Aquinas said (Summa Theologiae III:27:4):

“I answer that, God so prepares and endows those, whom He chooses for some particular office, that they are rendered capable of fulfilling it, according to 2 Cor. 3:6 : ‘(Who) hath made us fit ministers of the New Testament.’ Now the Blessed Virgin was chosen by God to be His Mother. Therefore there can be no doubt that God, by His grace, made her worthy of that office, according to the words spoken to her by the angel (Lk. 1:30 ,31 ): ‘Thou hast found grace with God: behold thou shalt conceive,’ etc. But she would not have been worthy to be the Mother of God, if she had ever sinned. First, because the honor of the parents reflects on the child, according to Prov. 17:6 : ‘The glory of children are their fathers’: and consequently, on the other hand, the Mother’s shame would have reflected on her Son. Secondly, because of the singular affinity between her and Christ, who took flesh from her: and it is written (2 Cor. 6:15 ): ‘What concord hath Christ with Belial?’ Thirdly, because of the singular manner in which the Son of God, who is the ‘Divine Wisdom’ (1 Cor. 1:24 ) dwelt in her, not only in her soul but in her womb. And it is written (Wis. 1:4 ): ‘Wisdom will not enter into a malicious soul, nor dwell in a body subject to sins.’

“We must therefore confess simply that the Blessed Virgin committed no actual sin, neither mortal nor venial; so that what is written (Cant 4:7 ) is fulfilled: ‘Thou art all fair, O my love, and there is not a spot in thee,’ etc. “

You either don't know what a straw man fallacy is, or you have never read Aquinas, repeating anti-Catholic nonsense, or you have read Aquinas and are being deceptive. Then you accuse me of making a straw man.
 
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prodromos

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No. His quote is on the link you ignored.

Here is what Aquinas said (Summa Theologiae III:27:4):

“I answer that, God so prepares and endows those, whom He chooses for some particular office, that they are rendered capable of fulfilling it, according to 2 Cor. 3:6 : ‘(Who) hath made us fit ministers of the New Testament.’ Now the Blessed Virgin was chosen by God to be His Mother. Therefore there can be no doubt that God, by His grace, made her worthy of that office, according to the words spoken to her by the angel (Lk. 1:30 ,31 ): ‘Thou hast found grace with God: behold thou shalt conceive,’ etc. But she would not have been worthy to be the Mother of God, if she had ever sinned. First, because the honor of the parents reflects on the child, according to Prov. 17:6 : ‘The glory of children are their fathers’: and consequently, on the other hand, the Mother’s shame would have reflected on her Son. Secondly, because of the singular affinity between her and Christ, who took flesh from her: and it is written (2 Cor. 6:15 ): ‘What concord hath Christ with Belial?’ Thirdly, because of the singular manner in which the Son of God, who is the ‘Divine Wisdom’ (1 Cor. 1:24 ) dwelt in her, not only in her soul but in her womb. And it is written (Wis. 1:4 ): ‘Wisdom will not enter into a malicious soul, nor dwell in a body subject to sins.’

“We must therefore confess simply that the Blessed Virgin committed no actual sin, neither mortal nor venial; so that what is written (Cant 4:7 ) is fulfilled: ‘Thou art all fair, O my love, and there is not a spot in thee,’ etc. “

You either don't know what a straw man fallacy is, or you have never read Aquinas, repeating anti-Catholic nonsense, or you have read Aquinas and are being deceptive. Then you accuse me of making a straw man.
Aquinas does not anywhere here claim that Mary was immaculately conceived, he only states that Mary had not commited any sins. My comment was in regards to you quoting Aquinas in a post defending the Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, when Aquinas himself opposed the doctrine. You then responded with the link to Aquinas which says nothing about the Immaculate Conception, only Mary's personal sinlessness. That is most definitely a strawman as I have posted nothing against Mary's sinlessness.
Since you claim I am being deceptive (I did read your link) can you please confirm whether or not Aquinas opposed the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. You've avoided answering once, will you deflect again I wonder?
 
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Mountainmike

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Also because we believe The Theotokos would not have received any "preferential treatment" that separated her from the rest of us humans.


She clearly did receive preferential treatment - scripture says so.

She was given a title by the angel "hail, full of grace" ( which undersells the original language Kaire kecharetomene , perhaps better as " hail perfected by grace" Who else was told " the lord is with you" " blessed art thou" and so on.

Who else was given such gifts? She was unique amongst humankind.

She was the new eve, ark of the new covenant, and just as the old eve was born immaculate, falling in disobedience her own lifetime, God had the power to do so for the new Eve. The word word " woman" in ancient language was the same used of eve, used by Jesus of Mary at Cana, the same used of the woman of revelations.

So the question is not whether treatment was preferential it certainly was! The question is how preferential.

It seems to me amajor difference between us and our orthodox friends, is they leave as mystery what we define a little more. They accept the need for purgation, but say nothing to define the state or place in which it happens. They accept the Eucharist is Christ present but leave as mystery how that is manifested. This case they do accept Mary as special, and the need for man to redeem a history of sin that has tainted, but they leave as mystery how man was tainted or how our lady was special.
 
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Major1

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Hello,

I don't come from a Catholic background, and would appreciate hearing some of the scriptures and church doctrine that outlines the immaculate conception. It's a topic of which I am fairly ignorant, and even the purpose of the doctrine (as I understand it) is probably off-base.

Thank you, and God bless

Hello my friend. I hope that you are well and I hope that I can help you.

Many people mistakenly believe that the Immaculate Conception refers to the conception of Jesus Christ. Jesus’ conception was most assuredly immaculate—that is, without the stain of sin—but the Immaculate Conception does not refer to Jesus at all.

The Immaculate Conception is a doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church in regards to Mary, Jesus’ mother and has nothing to do with the birth of Jesus. The official statement of the doctrine from the RCC reads.........
“The blessed Virgin Mary to have been, from the first instant of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of Almighty God, in view of the merits of Christ Jesus the Savior of Mankind, preserved free from all stain of original sin” (Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus, December 1854).

Essentially, the Immaculate Conception is the belief that Mary was protected from original sin, that Mary did not have a sin nature and was, in fact, sinless.

It is a Roman Catholic doctrine and has no Biblical basis whatsoever.

The Bible says in Romans 3:23...........
"ALL have sinned and come short of the approval of God."

NO WHWERE in the Scriptures is there a suggestion of Mary not being included in the ALL of Romans 3:23.
 
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Major1

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Mary was saved "at her conception" from the stain of original sin. The sinfulness of her parents plays no part in that.

It could have happened with Jesus Christ. The Church does not teach that it "had" to happen that way, only that it was fitting that it did. Everything God does is for our benefit, not because he must do it this way or that way. God didn't have to use a human being at all, he could have taken on flesh and arrived on earth 33 years old if he chose to. But he chose to come through a human woman, to take his flesh from her, to be one of us. He prepared his mother in a loving way, allowing her the grace to bear the God-man and to bear the suffering that would pierce her heart. Luke 2:34-35

Over and over it is the same thing. Catholic believers say this and that and the other. BUT they never seem to be able to back up anything said with Scriptures with validate their comments.

Please quote the Scriptures for those of us who need the validation of The Bible to accept and believe your comments.
 
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Major1

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Aquinas does not anywhere here claim that Mary was immaculately conceived, he only states that Mary had not commited any sins. My comment was in regards to you quoting Aquinas in a post defending the Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, when Aquinas himself opposed the doctrine. You then responded with the link to Aquinas which says nothing about the Immaculate Conception, only Mary's personal sinlessness. That is most definitely a strawman as I have posted nothing against Mary's sinlessness.
Since you claim I am being deceptive (I did read your link) can you please confirm whether or not Aquinas opposed the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. You've avoided answering once, will you deflect again I wonder?

My dear friend can answer your question to him. As for me, I do not care what Aquinas, or John Wayne or President Clinton said. IF it is not found in the Word of God it means nothing to me.

So then, will you please post the Bible Scripture that confirms the Immaculate conception.

Where in the Bible is it stated that Mary was sinless.
 
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Major1

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At a very early date the Christian church developed the theory / dogma of Original Sin based largely on the mythology of the creation as found in Genesis. Not realizing any better, they accepted the story as literal history. We all know, or should know, that the theory of Original Sin is based on the notion that we are a fallen race, unworthy of God because of the sin of our primeval parents Adam and Eve. St Augustine further developed the theory by stating that the stain of the Original Sin was passed on to the children through the seed of the father.

This concept further confirmed the notion in the early church that sex was inherently evil and to be discouraged except for procreation. What is interesting as well is that Genesis is a Jewish scripture and the Jews never developed the theory of Original Sin. Moreover, the rather earthy Jewish attitude toward sex lacks entirely the Christian distaste for it.

The notion that Original Sin was passed on through the father's seed, somewhat like a spiritual HIV virus, turns out to have been inherently flawed. We must realize, that at that point in history, it was believed that the father, and the father only, contributed what we would today call the genetic make up of the child. What they called the male seed was regarded as containing an entire nascent human being. As a consequence, they regarded any wastage of the seed as tatamount to murder. This explains why masturbation, coitus interuptus and even wet dreams were considered to be serious sins. The role of the woman was solely that of providing the warm nurturing environment for the developing child. She had no genetic contribution to make. Since she contributed nothing to the make up of the child, she could, of course, not be the agency through which Original Sin was passed on. Of course the mother herself was cursed with Original Sin but this flaw in her was not felt to have any bearing on the state of the child.

Now when we link these notions to the Nativity story we get further complications. Mary was believed to have become pregnant through the agency of God. God of course contributed the seed (genetic material) and Mary's role for the next nine months was as a nurturing womb. Jesus was born sinless because of course God was sinless. The stain of the Original Sin did not afflict him. It did not matter that Mary was afflicted with the sin.

This entire theory fell apart about 200 years ago when it was discovered by microscopic studies that the mother did indeed contribute genetically to the child. She of course supplied the egg cell to be fertilized by the male sperm.

This realization seems to have provided a good deal of the impetus for the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. If Mary through her egg contributed to the genetic make up of Jesus then she too could pass on Original Sin. The Immaculate Conception solved this problem quite neatly by stating that Mary herself must have been concieved immaculately (without sin) through the agency of the grace of Jesus somehow applied retroactively.

Then please explain Romans 3:23.....
"ALL have sinned and come short of the approval of God".

Do you realize that if what you are saying about the Immaculate conception is true, then God is a LIAR. Lieing is a sin so then we would not have a sinless Messiah. I wish some of you people would think some of your comments through instead of just copy and pasting RCC web site blogs.

Then YOU and me my friend would still be in our sin and we would be destined for the torments of hell.

I suggest that you do some more Bible study on this subject.
 
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Major1

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It's predicated on the Catholic idea that existence itself is sin, if you are descended from Adam. In order to justify Mary being God's vessel, there had to be a loophole for her, so the idea that she evaded that issue with her conception it what they came up with.

From an Orthodox perspective, existence is not a sin, but we do inherit corruption, that is, mortality from Adam (as in, your body gets old and decays and dies). Mary did inherit that, and in Orthodox she is considered to have fallen asleep in Lord (died), which we call her Dormition. Christ is also considered to have inherited that corruption from Adam (although it is abolished in his Resurrection), and the belief that he did not is known as "aphthartodocetism," which we reject.

You said..........
" In order to justify Mary being God's vessel, there had to be a loophole for her, so the idea that she evaded that issue with her conception it what they came up with."

In plain English then, you are saying that the RCC made up the doctrine of the Immaculate conception.....correct???
 
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JackRT

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Then please explain Romans 3:23.....
"ALL have sinned and come short of the approval of God".

Yes, that was Paul's understanding.

Do you realize that if what you are saying about the Immaculate conception is true, then God is a LIAR. Lieing is a sin so then we would not have a sinless Messiah. I wish some of you people would think some of your comments through instead of just copy and pasting RCC web site blogs.

Disagreeing with an ancient writer or a more modern interpretation is not calling God a liar. I do not even read RCC web site blogs let alone copy and paste from them. In fact I was excommunicated forty years ago.

Then YOU and me my friend would still be in our sin and we would be destined for the torments of hell.

Both the concept of hell and the hypothesis of original sin are interpretations that I reject.

I suggest that you do some more Bible study on this subject.

I have been studying the Bible for about forty years. The more I study, the more I reject much of the doctrine that has been invented out of it.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Over and over it is the same thing. Catholic believers say this and that and the other. BUT they never seem to be able to back up anything said with Scriptures with validate their comments.

Please quote the Scriptures for those of us who need the validation of The Bible to accept and believe your comments.

The problem is that the Catholic Church does not accept the Bible as being the authority which determines truth. Instead, they have substituted a magisterium of men who develop doctrines and dogmas for their church.
 
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kepha31

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The problem is that the Catholic Church does not accept the Bible as being the authority which determines truth. Instead, they have substituted a magisterium of men who develop doctrines and dogmas for their church.
Where do you think the Bible came from? A magisterial of men who, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, developed the canon. That's where the Bible came from. Since this process took 4 centuries, it would have impossible to accomplish without some kind of succession of leadership.

Doctrines and dogmas come from the deposit of faith (see below). They develop, but cannot change in essence from what they first meant. It is impossible for the Church to invent dogmas and docrines. "Jesus Christ is God" is a dogmatic declaration. It is not the invention of the Church but a revealed truth.

No, we don't accept the Bible as "the authority which determines truth." when it gets ripped from the ongoing living Tradition that canonized it.


divinerev.jpg
 
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kepha31

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Aquinas does not anywhere here claim that Mary was immaculately conceived, he only states that Mary had not commited any sins. My comment was in regards to you quoting Aquinas in a post defending the Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, when Aquinas himself opposed the doctrine. You then responded with the link to Aquinas which says nothing about the Immaculate Conception, only Mary's personal sinlessness. That is most definitely a strawman as I have posted nothing against Mary's sinlessness.
Since you claim I am being deceptive (I did read your link) can you please confirm whether or not Aquinas opposed the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. You've avoided answering once, will you deflect again I wonder?
Thomas is the Church’s greatest scholar, but he is still only human. We must also remember that Thomas was only struggling with when Mary was sanctified, not if she was. He still held that Mary was freed from the stain of original sin and that she remained sinless her entire life. Some people take Thomas' denial of sanctification at the moment of conception to mean that he thought Mary was a sinner like the rest of us. But, this is a gross distortion of what Thomas believed.
Ultimately, Thomas was simply doing what all theologians do with matters of the faith that have not been defined by the Church: He was wrestling with the implications of a belief, plumbing the depths of it, ironing out its finer details, seeing how the doctrine in question fits within the larger deposit of the faith. This type of theological work is how dogma develops, and it is a very natural and expected process, as the Holy Spirit leads the Church towards the full knowledge of the truth.

Instead of being scandalized by Thomas’ words in the Summa, we should really be thankful for them. He contributed to the necessary work that brought the Church to a fuller understanding of Mary’s sinlessness.
phat catholic apologetics: Did St. Thomas Aquinas Deny the Immaculate Conception?
 
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prodromos

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Thomas is the Church’s greatest scholar, but he is still only human. We must also remember that Thomas was only struggling with when Mary was sanctified, not if she was. He still held that Mary was freed from the stain of original sin and that she remained sinless her entire life. Some people take Thomas' denial of sanctification at the moment of conception to mean that he thought Mary was a sinner like the rest of us. But, this is a gross distortion of what Thomas believed.
Ultimately, Thomas was simply doing what all theologians do with matters of the faith that have not been defined by the Church: He was wrestling with the implications of a belief, plumbing the depths of it, ironing out its finer details, seeing how the doctrine in question fits within the larger deposit of the faith. This type of theological work is how dogma develops, and it is a very natural and expected process, as the Holy Spirit leads the Church towards the full knowledge of the truth.

Instead of being scandalized by Thomas’ words in the Summa, we should really be thankful for them. He contributed to the necessary work that brought the Church to a fuller understanding of Mary’s sinlessness.
phat catholic apologetics: Did St. Thomas Aquinas Deny the Immaculate Conception?
Once again. Did Thomas Aquinas oppose the doctine of the immaculate conception or not? I only ask that you clarify this because you earlier accused me of being deceptive, so either demonstrate that I was being deceptive or retract the accusation.
 
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Major1

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Yes, that was Paul's understanding.



Disagreeing with an ancient writer or a more modern interpretation is not calling God a liar. I do not even read RCC web site blogs let alone copy and paste from them. In fact I was excommunicated forty years ago.



Both the concept of hell and the hypothesis of original sin are interpretations that I reject.



I have been studying the Bible for about forty years. The more I study, the more I reject much of the doctrine that has been invented out of it.

I am very sorry that you are in the position you have described.

You of course have freedom of choice to reject the Word of God.

I see no way to proceed discussing the Bible with you as I have spent 50 years studying it and teaching it.
 
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Major1

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The problem is that the Catholic Church does not accept the Bible as being the authority which determines truth. Instead, they have substituted a magisterium of men who develop doctrines and dogmas for their church.

You are totally correct. When one rejects the Bible as sole authority in spiritual matters and accepts the words of man, disaster always follows.

Why is that?????

Because ALL men are sinners. There is none righeteous, no not one.
 
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