Universalism...why not?

Which is it?

  • God doesn't want all men to be saved.

    Votes: 4 8.2%
  • God can't do what he wants to do.

    Votes: 2 4.1%
  • Neither, God will continue to work on unrepentant souls because his love & patience are unending.

    Votes: 40 81.6%
  • Don't know...never thought about this before.

    Votes: 3 6.1%

  • Total voters
    49

Der Alte

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What standard have you set for your own self? What qualifies you--or what gives you security--that you ARE a "believer" (I'm presuming you believe that you can label yourself that way....am I correct)? Suppose someone is reading along--and is concerned that they may fall into the "destroyed" group that you speak of and they need reassurance....you know....some Good News.
I was just pointing out the group He normally (if not ALL His recorded words) spoke to in that way. How would you categorize that group? A hint: they weren't "Nonbelievers who are doing all the sinful things they do".
These are questions are off topic for this thread. We should be discussing
"Universalism...why not?"
 
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gordonhooker

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I read this poem many years ago and it answers the question for me, this is the all merciful and loving God that John 3:16 refers to:

The Fullness of Time
By James Stephens (b. 1882)

On a rusty iron throne
Past the furthest star of space
I saw Satan sit alone,
Old and haggard was his face;
For his work was done and he
Rested in eternity.

And to him from out the sun
Came his father and his friend
Saying, now the work is done
Enmity is at an end:
And he guided Satan to
Paradises that he knew.

Gabriel without a frown,
Uriel without a spear,
Raphael came singing down
Welcoming their ancient peer,
And they seated him beside
One who had been crucified.

blessings, Gordon
 
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Der Alte

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So......are you saying this letter is ONLY to those that Paul was directly writing to.....those in that specific group in Corinth? The part about "the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God" doesn't apply to everyone? Just this group? And Him knowing the thoughts of the wise....and their vanity--that's ONLY those in Corinth at that time?
By quoting "the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God" out-of-context as you did can make it appear to say something it does not say. All scripture is written for us but all scripture is not written to us. For example, Noah and the ark has spiritual lessons for all believers but all believers are not told to go build an ark etc.
1 Corinthians 3:18-19
(18) Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
(19) For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
Who is vs. 19 specifically directed to? "If any man among you seems to be wise in this world" Who is the "you" in this vs? Answer "laborers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building, vs. 9." This is not to say that there are not spiritual truths for all believers in this passage. But when read in-context, as it was intended to be, it does not support Universalism. It does not say as Unis try to force it read.
1 Corinthians 3:13-15
(13) [All mankind believers' or unbelievers'] work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try [all mankind believers' or unbelievers'] work of what sort it is.
(14) If [all mankind believers' or unbelievers'] work abide which [they] hath built thereupon, [they] shall receive a reward.
(15) If [all mankind, believers' or unbelievers'] work shall be burned, [they] shall suffer loss: but [they themselves] shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


 
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mkgal1

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These are questions are off topic for this thread. We should be discussing
"Universalism...why not?
Isn't that a part of Universalism (the discussion of HOW one is saved)? I didn't understand the rules to be that those questions are "off topic".....how can one discuss "salvation" without describing what they mean (for themselves)? It seems pretty uncharitable to make the claim that "many will be destroyed" and "not saved" [ever!].....but not describe who is "in" and who is going to be "out".

We were discussing the passage is Matthew...and you were asking "does that sound like they are going to be saved?"....and I asked about that group that was directed towards (the Pharisees---religious leaders that are described as "righteous" in Matthew 5). There's a common thread--it seems to me--about Jesus condemning the self-righteousness of the Pharisees.
 
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mkgal1

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So, if God desires all men to be saved and if God can do what he wants to do, he wouldn't put a time limit (i.e. upon death) on his love and patience towards us.

So, if God's love and patience run out on a soul upon death, either God doesn't want all men to be saved or God can't do what he wants to do. Which is it?

Re-quoted as a refresher of the topic (since this thread has continued over a long spance of time).
It's never been shown/supported that God's love and patience runs out in our biological lifetime. Jesus proved that just because our body is put to death.....our souls go on. Why would God's patience/mercy/love have an expiration stamp? 1st Corinthians 15 says "death has been swallowed up"....so why would it matter again?
 
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mkgal1

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Unis try to force it read.
1 Corinthians 3:13-15
(13) [All mankind believers' or unbelievers'] work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try [all mankind believers' or unbelievers'] work of what sort it is.
(14) If [all mankind believers' or unbelievers'] work abide which [they] hath built thereupon, [they] shall receive a reward.
(15) If [all mankind, believers' or unbelievers'] work shall be burned, [they] shall suffer loss: but [they themselves] shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
......well.....yes, I read it that way, but nothing is *forced*. I also suspect we have different definitions for "believers".....because I honestly can see Atheists and Muslims (for example) in the group that have stored up work that's gold, silver, and precious jewels.

What do you do with this verse:​


"If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved" (v 15)

Holding that up to James passage--that faith without works is dead--does it make sense to you that someone truly "laboring" as a believer would have been building things that are all burned up?

Isn't it reasonable (using Scripture to interpret Scripture) that these are things "of the flesh" that are burned in the fire?​
 
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Der Alte

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......well.....yes, I read it that way, but nothing is *forced*. I also suspect we have different definitions for "believers".....because I honestly can see Atheists and Muslims (for example) in the group that have stored up work that's gold, silver, and precious jewels.
What do you do with this verse:
"If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved" (v 15)
Holding that up to James passage--that faith without works is dead--does it make sense to you that someone truly "laboring" as a believer would have been building things that are all burned up? Isn't it reasonable (using Scripture to interpret Scripture) that these are things "of the flesh" that are burned in the fire?
I have addressed 1 Cor 3:15 more than once above. If you don't understand what I said there is nothing I can do at this point.
.....When did the Corinthian Christians get the book of James which was written "to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad?" There is no record of the Corinthians having any other books of the NT. We can't assume that they had all the uni proof texts you are using trying to make Paul's letter to the church at Corinth a treatise on universalism. They did not have computers where they could pull up every book in the Bible.
.....I don't know what a believer might be building that would make Paul say would be burned up but I can read the context and determine what he was saying and to whom he was saying it.

 
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mkgal1

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I have addressed 1 Cor 3:15 more than once above. If you don't understand what I said there is nothing I can do at this point
You haven't yet addressed that question, though. There are many layers to 1st Cor 3:15.....we could probably dwell on it for quite a while and STILL not get to ALL that we can glean from it.

So.....are you going to answer....or pivot and continue to change the subject? You don't think it was clear to the early church what they were "building"---and that what they were building isn't the same as what we are building (as co-workers with God and others in the Body of Christ)? If that's left out....then I don't know how you can "read the context and determine what he [Paul] was saying".
 
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gordonhooker

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I have addressed 1 Cor 3:15 more than once above. If you don't understand what I said there is nothing I can do at this point.
.....When did the Corinthian Christians get the book of James which was written "to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad?" There is no record of the Corinthians having any other books of the NT. We can't assume that they had all the uni proof texts you are using trying to make Paul's letter to the church at Corinth a treatise on universalism. They did not have computers where they could pull up every book in the Bible.
.....I don't know what a believer might be building that would make Paul say would be burned up but I can read the context and determine what he was saying and to whom he was saying it.


There is nothing to say the James' letter wasn't copied and sent to the church at Corinth either, if something is commonly known to the people of the time there is no need to confirm it to save arguments down the track. ;)
 
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ClementofA

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Wild speculation that Corinth or any other city had all the information that you have pulled from several disparate verses.

They didn't need it to simply believe what is written:

Every man's work...shall be revealed by fire; v.13
the fire shall try every man's work v.13
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss v.15
but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. v.15

1 Corinthians 3 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


1 Cor.13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing...
4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away...
13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive... 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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ClementofA

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Nonbelievers who are doing all the sinful things they do are certainly not "building on the foundation of Christ."


If sinful things are not included in "building on Christ", then please explain what is the "wood, hay & stubble" that the passage says is "built on Christ" & will be "burned up".​
 
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Der Alte

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There is nothing to say the James' letter wasn't copied and sent to the church at Corinth either, if something is commonly known to the people of the time there is no need to confirm it to save arguments down the track.
Yes that is what we should do build entire doctrines on the assumption that all the churches mentioned in the NT had all or most of the NT, all of the proof texts that heterodox groups use to support their false teachings and when they heard or read the words of Paul in 1 Cor 3 e.g. they could just pull out their scrolls and look up James etc. We can just forget the fact that scrolls were expensive and only the rich could afford to own them.
.....I was thinking a little earlier why is it when the framers of the Constitution wrote "We the People of the United States" they clearly did not mean all the people in the world but when Paul wrote "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth vs. 1:1""we are labourers together with God: God's husbandry, God's building.vs. 3:9" he really meant all of mankind past, present and future including robbers, thieves, murderers etc.
.....Anyone can prove almost anything by quoting selective verses out-of-context. I can even prove that the Bible says "There is no God." Psalm 14 and 53.
 
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Der Alte

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If sinful things are not included in "building on Christ", then please explain what is the "wood, hay & stubble" that the passage says is "built on Christ" & will be "burned up".

Nonbelievers who are doing all the sinful things they do are certainly not "building on the foundation of Christ."
1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
Romans 7:22-25
(22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
(23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
(24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
(25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Did Paul say "There is therefore now no condemnation for all of mankind?"
 
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SkyWriting

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It seems a bit odd that The Father put us in a place where we have no physical proof that He actually exists (to the unbeliever) yet threatens punishment if we fail to recognize it.

The threat is "Torment" and that is you tormenting yourself.
No outside forces.
Being stuck in the presence of God you don't trust...that would be torture.
 
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Der Alte

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You haven't yet addressed that question, though. There are many layers to 1st Cor 3:15.....we could probably dwell on it for quite a while and STILL not get to ALL that we can glean from it.
There is an old maxim about interpreting the Bible. "If the plain sense makes good sense then it is nonsense to look for any other sense." People can imagine all sorts of hidden "layers" in virtually any passage and force it to support some imagined hidden meaning. Where did Paul clarify/explain all these hidden layers in his writings?
So.....are you going to answer....or pivot and continue to change the subject? You don't think it was clear to the early church what they were "building"---and that what they were building isn't the same as what we are building (as co-workers with God and others in the Body of Christ)? If that's left out....then I don't know how you can "read the context and determine what he [Paul] was saying".
Please explain to me how you got all this from anything I wrote? If there was nothing to correct about the Corinthian church Paul would not have given them instructions and corrections. See e.g. 1 Corinthians 5:1-5, 1 Corinthians 5:13, 1 Corinthians 6:7-8 et alia. My point is and has always been 1 Cor 3:9-17 is addressed to and refers to the Christians at Corinth and it does not refer to all mankind.
 
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Der Alte

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They didn't need it to simply believe what is written:
Every man's work...shall be revealed by fire; v.13
the fire shall try every man's work v.13
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss v.15
but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. v.15

1 Corinthians 3 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
But you are not simply believing what is written you continue to ignore the context of 1 Cor 3:9-17 trying to force it support universalism.
1 Corinthians 1:1-2
(1) Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
(2) Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
1 Cor. was written to the church at Corinth. Vss. 3:9-17 are addressed to a specific group in the church, not all mankind; i.e. " labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building."
1 Corinthians 3:9-17.
(9) For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
(10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
(11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
(13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
(14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
(15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
(16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
(17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
Trying to force this passage to be a proof text for universalism is totally false. The Corinthian church certainly could not have understood it that way.
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive... 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Another out-of-context proof text. All mankind is inherently "in Adam" because mankind is literally, physically descended from Adam, we have his DNA.
.....All mankind is not inherently "in Christ." One must be "in Christ" to be saved by Him. This vs. does not say "by Adam all die, even so by Christ shall all be made alive" and it does not say "because of Adam all die, even so because Christ shall all be made alive"
 
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mkgal1

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Where did Paul clarify/explain all these hidden layers in his writings?
Paul doesn't clarify/explain all these hidden layers--that's what "mystery" is (it's not things we *can't* understand....it's continuing to understand and unravel).

Some verses about "mystery" from Paul:

1 Corinthians 2:7~but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory.

Colossians 1:26~that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints.

Ephesians 1:9~He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him.

Ephesians 3:4~By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ.

Colossians 2:2~that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God's mystery, that is, Christ Himself.


Quote from Fr Richard Rohr (Franciscan Friar)= "Mystery is not something you can’t know. Mystery is endless knowability."
 
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ClementofA

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....when Paul wrote "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth vs. 1:1""we are labourers together with God: God's husbandry, God's building.vs. 3:9" he really meant all of mankind past, present and future including robbers, thieves, murderers etc.
.....

Nobody believes or said that. It is a misrepresentation of what is being stated here.
 
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ClementofA

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Nonbelievers who are doing all the sinful things they do are certainly not "building on the foundation of Christ."
1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
Romans 7:22-25
(22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
(23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
(24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
(25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Did Paul say "There is therefore now no condemnation for all of mankind?"

How did that answer this:

If sinful things are not included in "building on Christ", then please explain what is the "wood, hay & stubble" that the passage says is "built on Christ" & will be "burned up".
 
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mkgal1

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Nonbelievers who are doing all the sinful things they do are certainly not "building on the foundation of Christ."
1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
Romans 7:22-25
(22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
(23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
(24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
(25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Did Paul say "There is therefore now no condemnation for all of mankind?"

There is an old maxim about interpreting the Bible. "If the plain sense makes good sense then it is nonsense to look for any other sense." People can imagine all sorts of hidden "layers" in virtually any passage and force it to support some imagined hidden meaning. Where did Paul clarify/explain all these hidden layers in his writings?

Please explain to me how you got all this from anything I wrote? If there was nothing to correct about the Corinthian church Paul would not have given them instructions and corrections. See e.g. 1 Corinthians 5:1-5, 1 Corinthians 5:13, 1 Corinthians 6:7-8 et alia. My point is and has always been 1 Cor 3:9-17 is addressed to and refers to the Christians at Corinth and it does not refer to all mankind.




Does that answer this question?

Clement said:
If sinful things are not included in "building on Christ", then please explain what is the "wood, hay & stubble" that the passage says is "built on Christ" & will be "burned up".

Are you saying that what's burned up (the "wood, hay & stubble") is "what needs correction"...in other words...."the sinful things they were doing"? Verse 3 says,

"You still live as men who are not Christians. When you are jealous and fight with each other, you are still living in sin and acting like sinful men in the world"

And about "the foundation Christ laid"? Can you not recognize we ALL build upon it ("God so loved the WHOLE WORLD that He gave His only begotten son"--that's the foundation that's laid)--that's why verse 10 says, "Each person needs to pay attention to the way they build on it." It's our response to His love........our way of living. Like I posted earlier.....that goes along really well with the OP, and the contrast of the two brothers. It also goes along with what Paul wrote in Galatians about living by the Spirit and living by the flesh.

This letter to the Corinthians is speaking to them "living by the flesh" and correcting them for their jealousy and fighting (can't that extend to ALL humanity....written TO the church at Corinth...but useful FOR all of us?). It then goes on to say, "But if anyone’s work goes up in flames, they’ll lose it. However, they themselves will be saved as if they had gone through a fire." Even IF we were ONLY applying this to this group in Corinth.......what does it say about God's patience and mercy (and His will to destroy sin and save souls)?
 
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