Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works

stuart lawrence said:

You gotta smile. God would forgive sins under the old covenant.
So why did Jesus die on the cross if it was only to forgive our sins when we commit sin?
No need, that structure was already in place!

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Under the OT law, they had nothing that could totally, completely remit all sins leaving one completely justified before God. The most the OT law allowed was for flawless law keeping. If the Jew could keep all 600+ laws flawlessly/perfectly, he would have no sin and could stand before God sinless, justified. Yet the Jew would always sin and Hebrews chpts 9 and 10 show they had nothing to totally remit all sins. The blood of animals could not totally remit sins, for their sins were just rolled ahead and there was a remembrance of their sins each year. But Christ dying on the cross shedding His blood left a way for us under the NT gospel to have all our sins totally, completely remitted, and God will not remember those sins anymore and one can stand completely justified before God IN CHRIST being clothed in Christ's perfect righteousness.

This is why Paul shows in Rom 7 and 8 there was condemnation under the OT law, no total complete justification, but NOW (contrasted to back then under the OT law) as a Christian there is no condemnation to them that are "IN CHRIST" Romans 8:1.

TheSeabass said:

Under the OT law, they had nothing that could totally, completely remit all sins leaving one completely justified before God. The most the OT law allowed was for flawless law keeping. If the Jew could keep all 600+ laws flawlessly/perfectly, he would have no sin and could stand before God sinless, justified. Yet the Jew would always sin and Hebrews chpts 9 and 10 show they had nothing to totally remit all sins. The blood of animals could not totally remit sins, for their sins were just rolled ahead and there was a remembrance of their sins each year. But Christ dying on the cross shedding His blood left a way for us under the NT gospel to have all our sins totally, completely remitted, and God will not remember those sins anymore and one can stand completely justified before God IN CHRIST being clothed in Christ's perfect righteousness.

This is why Paul shows in Rom 7 and 8 there was condemnation under the OT law, no total complete justification, but NOW (contrasted to back then under the OT law) as a Christian there is no condemnation to them that are "IN CHRIST" Romans 8:1.

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You are absolutely correct. The OT Jew could not be justified/ righteous in God's sight by obeying/ observing the law because none of them faultlessly obeyed it. And the only way they could be justified by observing the law was if they perfectly obeyed it. Many do not realise this. They think there is in effect a pass mark of obeying the law to be righteous before God. It's great to read a post which states this is not possible.
Interestingly, there was OC law that could be faultlessly obeyed, which many refer to as the legalistic/ Levitical law. Paul himself said that as a pharisee he faultlessly obeyed the legalistic law.( Phil3:6) I imagine the Pharisees of Jesus day did also. And it is this law most Christians believe they are not required to follow under the NC.
However, it was the moral law/TC that no one could faultlessly obey under the OC and the law came As one whole law. Therefore as you say, no one could be righteous/ justified by observing the law as none perfectly observed the moral law. Paul went into detail in rom ch7 to explain he could not obey the moral law/TC as a pharisee.
The moral law exists for the Christian under the NC. Paul himself stated the law written on stone/ TC was in the hearts of the Corinthians( 2cor3:3). This echoes one of the two core terms on which the NC stands:
I will write my laws in their minds and place them on their hearts ( Jeremiah31. Heb chs8&10.
As no one faultlessly observed this moral law under the OC, so no one under the NC faultlessly observes it either. And we agree, to be righteous before God by observing the law requires perfect obedience.
So, no Christian can be righteous in God's sight by observing NC law, for they cannot faultlessly observed that law. The Christians righteousness is faith in Christ.
Because sin is transgression of the law, through the law we become conscious of sin, but we cannot be righteous by observing that law, as paul tells us. He sums it up well:

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law, rather through the law we become conscious of sin
Rom3:20

TheSeabass said:

You asked "When do you intend to start keeping the Law?" You did not specify what law you were talking about. Even in post #235, he thought you were referring to the OT law.

As I posted I do not keep the OT law of Moses but the NT law of Christ. As Paul said he was under law to Christ 1 Cor 9:21.

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So, when do you intend to start keeping the NT Law of Christ?

Bible2+ said:

Note that, like Cornelius, the apostle Paul received Holy Spirit baptism before his water baptism (Acts 9:17-18).

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No sir, totally wrong. Carefully read those verses again with Paul.

17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest (see Acts 9:5-6), hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

This by no means says anything about Paul getting the Holy Spirit before baptism. It says Ananias was summoned by Jesus to go to Saul/Paul and show him what Paul must do to be saved. Remember Saul said "what wilt thou have me to do?"

Jesus said," and it shall be told thee what thou must do."

Therefore, he was baptized (see also Acts 22:16)

18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

I don't see were the Holy Spirit saved Paul before baptism. You misread those verses you gave me.

stuart lawrence said in post #255:

The Apostle Pauls message is not understood by many. A message that states you must know sin cannot condemn you in order for sin not to be your master makes no sense to the logical mind.

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Note the apostle Paul says unrepentant sin can condemn you (1 Corinthians 9:27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21).

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stuart lawrence said in post #254:

Why are sinful passions aroused in people by the law if they live under it? Rom7:5

And why shall sin not be your master for you are not under law but under grace? Rom6:14

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Christians can't sin without repentance and expect to be saved in the end (Hebrews 10:26-29). But they can never keep from sinning by trying to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, for it will only cause them to sin more (Romans 7:7-11, Romans 6:14). Instead, by the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:16, Romans 8:13), Christians keep the New Covenant law of Jesus Christ (Galatians 6:2, John 14:15, Hebrews 7:12, Hebrews 8:6-13, Matthew 26:28), which forbids all manner of sin to those who want to be saved in the end (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Revelation 21:8).

pescador said in post #257:

There is a huge difference between being a servant and being a son (read son or daughter throughout).

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Are you thinking of Galatians 4:7?

If so, note that Galatians 4:7 means Christians aren't only God's servants but are His children. For Christians are God's servants (Romans 6:22, Philippians 1:1; 2 Timothy 2:24). People can be both someone's child and his servant at the same time (Malachi 3:17, Exodus 4:23). Revelation is given to the Church (Revelation 22:16), God's servants (Revelation 22:6, Revelation 1:1) who will forever serve God (Revelation 22:3) with His name written on their forehead (Revelation 22:4, Revelation 3:12-13).

Also, being children of God doesn't mean once-saved-always-saved. For while Christians are the children of God (Galatians 4:6-7, Romans 8:16; 1 John 3:1, John 1:12), they can still ultimately lose their salvation, such as by refusing to repent from a sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46). For under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, a father was commanded to have even his own son stoned to death if his son refused to repent (Deuteronomy 21:18-21). And under the New Covenant, God will ultimately punish unrepentant sin even more sorely than He did under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Hebrews 10:26-29).

pescador said in post #257:

The slave must obey commands and live in fear of punishment.

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Note that Christians are commanded to fear God (1 Peter 2:17, Luke 12:5, Hebrews 12:28-29; 2 Corinthians 7:1, Ephesians 5:21, Acts 9:31). They must remain in fear of being cut off the same as non-Christians if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46). They must work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8), knowing the terror of the future judgment of Christians by Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10-11) at His Second Coming, when some Christians will end up losing their salvation because of unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29), or unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8).

Satan would love to deceive Christians into not having this fear of God, for Satan knows it's the lack of a fear of God which keeps people in unrepentant sin (Psalms 36:1, Psalms 10:13), and that it's by the fear of God that people depart from sin (Proverbs 16:6b, Proverbs 14:27, Proverbs 3:7). And Satan can make his deceptions appear as if they're on the side of good (2 Corinthians 11:14), when in fact his deceptions reject the sound doctrine of the Bible (1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), when the whole Bible is taken into consideration, instead of just taking a verse by itself and trying to misapply it (e.g. Matthew 4:6).

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Some Christians mistakenly think they shouldn't have any fear of God, because they misunderstand, for example, 1 John 4:18 and 2 Timothy 1:7.

But it's only if Christians perfectly love God that they won't misbehave (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24), and so they won't have any fear of any impending punishment from God for any misbehavior (1 John 4:18). But if they become so wicked they lose their fear of God (Psalms 36:1, Psalms 10:13), and so continue to misbehave without repentance, they do need to fear impending punishment from God in the form of temporal chastening (Hebrews 12:6). And if they refuse to repent even after receiving temporal chastening (Revelation 3:19, Revelation 2:21), they need to fear God's ability to cast them into hell (Luke 12:5) for their unrepentant misbehavior (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46).

Also, when 2 Timothy 1:7 says God hasn't given Christians the spirit of "fear", the original Greek word (G1167) means "timidity", and the context means a Christian isn't to be timid before people (cf. Proverbs 28:1) because he's ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ (2 Timothy 1:8) or afraid of suffering affliction from people for preaching the Gospel (2 Timothy 1:8b, Luke 12:4, Hebrews 13:6). So 2 Timothy 1:7 means God hasn't given Christians the spirit of the fear of people (Proverbs 29:25, Matthew 10:28). God has given Christians the Spirit of the fear of God (Matthew 10:28b, Isaiah 11:2, Romans 11:20-22, Romans 2:6-8, Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, 1 Peter 2:17, Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 12:28-29, 2 Corinthians 7:1, Ephesians 5:21, Acts 9:31). But Christians can nonetheless wrongly employ their free will to quench God's Holy Spirit within them (1 Thessalonians 5:19), and so they can wrongly lose their fear of God (Romans 11:20-22).

Bible2+ said:

Note the apostle Paul says unrepentant sin can condemn you (1 Corinthians 9:27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21).

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Christians can't sin without repentance and expect to be saved in the end (Hebrews 10:26-29). But they can never keep from sinning by trying to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, for it will only cause them to sin more (Romans 7:7-11, Romans 6:14). Instead, by the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:16, Romans 8:13), Christians keep the New Covenant law of Jesus Christ (Galatians 6:2, John 14:15, Hebrews 7:12, Hebrews 8:6-13, Matthew 26:28), which forbids all manner of sin to those who want to be saved in the end (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Revelation 21:8).

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The Apostle Paul did Not say in the verses you quoted, unrepentant sin can condemn you. The words Unrepentant sin was not mentioned in those verses.
The only law from the OC you are not required to follow under the NC was law that could be faultlessly obeyed!
The law that could not be faultlessly obeyed exists under the NC as it did the OC. Rom 7:7-11 is NC as well as OC law for it refers to the moral law/TC/ thou shalt not covet.
Here's your problem. The reason sin grew in Paul is because he feared death/ condemnation if he did not obey the Commandments that exists under NC law.
Yet you say, NC law forbids all manner of sin to those who want to be saved in the end.
That is what Saul the pharisee believed concerning OC law that exists under NC law today. And believing that resulted in all manner of concupiscence being aroused in him, and he felt condemned.
So if you say, failure to obey that law results in death, you are preaching the religion that condemned Saul the pharisee.
You are missing something important, I will illustrate your problem more in a separate post

Bible2+ said:

Note the apostle Paul says unrepentant sin can condemn you (1 Corinthians 9:27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21).

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Christians can't sin without repentance and expect to be saved in the end (Hebrews 10:26-29). But they can never keep from sinning by trying to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, for it will only cause them to sin more (Romans 7:7-11, Romans 6:14). Instead, by the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:16, Romans 8:13), Christians keep the New Covenant law of Jesus Christ (Galatians 6:2, John 14:15, Hebrews 7:12, Hebrews 8:6-13, Matthew 26:28), which forbids all manner of sin to those who want to be saved in the end (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Revelation 21:8).

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Sin is the transgression of the law
1john 3:4
The above is the definition of sin. If you observe the law therefore you do not commit sin, if you fail to observe the law you do commit sin. That applies to any law in existence concerning the covenant you are under.
Paul wrote:
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight be observing the law, rather through the law we become conscious of sin
Rom 3:20
So according to Paul, observing the law( which is not committing sin) cannot justify you/make you righteous before God. So how can sin condemn you?

Now let's look at another verse Paul( probably) wrote:

If we deliberately Keep on sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sin is left
Heb10:26

So in the first verse quoted it states you cannot have justification/ righteousness by observing the law/ not committing sin. In the second verse quoted a deliberate sinful lifestyle will condemn you/ stop you being justified/ righteous in God's sight.

Please explain, in your own words, why those verses don't contradict each other.

stuart lawrence said:

Sin is the transgression of the law
1john 3:4
The above is the definition of sin. If you observe the law therefore you do not commit sin, if you fail to observe the law you do commit sin. That applies to any law in existence concerning the covenant you are under.
Paul wrote:
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight be observing the law, rather through the law we become conscious of sin
Rom 3:20
So according to Paul, observing the law( which is not committing sin) cannot justify you/make you righteous before God. So how can sin condemn you?

Now let's look at another verse Paul( probably) wrote:

If we deliberately Keep on sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sin is left
Heb10:26

So in the first verse quoted it states you cannot have justification/ righteousness by observing the law/ not committing sin. In the second verse quoted a deliberate sinful lifestyle will condemn you/ stop you being justified/ righteous in God's sight.

Please explain, in your own words, why those verses don't contradict each other.

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The words "after we received a (full) knowledge of the (whole) truth", is one problem, and would suggest that sin is charged against us only when we full well know what we are doing... and Jesus said none of us really do, (at the cross, before he expired)...

Now "you say you see", (you say, or have decided that you have come to a full knowledge of the whole truth) your sin remains... "You say you see", is the key, it does not mean that they really saw, only that they think they did, which is how people get deceived, and Satan can manipulate them as long as they stay that way...

But, if you see yourself as always learning, forever a student, always growing and changing and becoming something new all the time, and not really seeing (everything) then...?

Deliberate is the other problem... Who really does deliberately sin...? What is deliberate...? or intentionally? What is intentionally?

God Bless!

Neogaia777 said:

The words "after we received a (full) knowledge of the (whole) truth", is one problem, and would suggest that sin is charged against us only when we full well know what we are doing... and Jesus said none of us really do, (at the cross, before he expired)...

Now "you say you see", (you say, or have decided that you have come to a full knowledge of the whole truth) your sin remains... "You say you see", is the key, it does not mean that they really saw, only that they think they did, which is how people get deceived, and Satan can manipulate them as long as they stay that way...

But, if you see yourself as always learning, forever a student, always growing and changing and becoming something new all the time, and not really seeing (everything) then...?

Deliberate is the other problem... Who really does deliberately sin...? What is deliberate...? or intentionally? What is intentionally?

God Bless!

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Insightful post with good points made!
Many are slaves to sin because they have been deceived by Satan and dont understand the truth if the message

Hers the problem, for many in a nutshell. According to Paul, sin shall not be your master for you are not under a righteousness of observing the law. Observing the law is not committing sin.
Therefore, according to Paul, if you know sin cannot condemn you sin shall not be your master. It may make no logical sense, but it made great spiritual sense to Paul. It was his core gospel message.
Many( unintentially) oppose Pauls message. They preach sin separates you from God. In one sense that is true, in another it isn't.
Concerning heb 10:26. Can a truly born again Christian live a deliberate, sinful lifestyle without conscience?
Can they commit sin they hate committing, and earnestly wish they did not commit?
Two different things isn't it.

bbbbbbb said:

So, when do you intend to start keeping the NT Law of Christ?

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I started 30+ years ago when I obeyed the gospel by believing repenting confessing and submitting to water baptism for remission of sins.

stuart lawrence said in post #268:

Rom 3:20
So according to Paul, observing the law( which is not committing sin) cannot justify you/make you righteous before God. So how can sin condemn you?

Now let's look at another verse Paul( probably) wrote:

If we deliberately Keep on sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sin is left
Heb10:26

So in the first verse quoted it states you cannot have justification/ righteousness by observing the law/ not committing sin. In the second verse quoted a deliberate sinful lifestyle will condemn you/ stop you being justified/ righteous in God's sight.

Please explain, in your own words, why those verses don't contradict each other.

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The former refers to initial justification/salvation while the latter refers to ultimate justification/salvation.

The ideas of initial salvation and ultimate salvation don't have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "initial salvation" and "ultimate salvation" in order to be true and supported by the Bible, just as, for example, the ideas of the unity of God and the Trinity don't have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "the unity" and "the Trinity" in order to be true and supported by the Bible (John 10:30, John 1:1,14, Isaiah 45:5, Matthew 28:19, Acts 5:3-4).

For in the Bible, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But note that other passages show that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law) if they're to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they're to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there's no assurance Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, in the Bible the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is initial salvation is the salvation which Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5) in their mortal bodies, while ultimate salvation is the salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5), and which is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus Christ will bring to obedient Christians at His Second Coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when He will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal physical bodies into immortal physical bodies just like the immortal physical body which Jesus obtained at His resurrection on the third day after His death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).

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stuart lawrence said in post #270:

Can a truly born again Christian live a deliberate, sinful lifestyle without conscience?

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Over time, yes.

1 Timothy 4:1 ¶Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron . . .

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

This means in a wrong desire to continue in their lusts without repentance, Christians can reach the point where they become no longer able to endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, and instead seek out and latch onto any false teachings which will help to support them in their lusts.

Hebrews 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Neogaia777 said in post #269:

Who really does deliberately sin...?

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Hebrews 10:26-29 refers to sin which can't be forgiven even through Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the Cross because it's sin which is being continued in without repentance. It hasn't been placed in the past (Romans 3:25), as in repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9). So "if we sin wilfully" (Hebrews 10:26) means if we sin without repentance. It doesn't mean: "If we sin because we want to", for every Christian has sinned because he wants to (James 1:14-15), and yet his sins as a Christian can still be forgiven if he repents from them and confesses them to God (1 John 1:9), including during his daily prayers asking for forgiveness for his sins (Matthew 6:11-12, Luke 11:3-4).

Bible2+ said:

The former refers to initial justification/salvation while the latter refers to ultimate justification/salvation.

The ideas of initial salvation and ultimate salvation don't have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "initial salvation" and "ultimate salvation" in order to be true and supported by the Bible, just as, for example, the ideas of the unity of God and the Trinity don't have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "the unity" and "the Trinity" in order to be true and supported by the Bible (John 10:30, John 1:1,14, Isaiah 45:5, Matthew 28:19, Acts 5:3-4).

For in the Bible, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But note that other passages show that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law) if they're to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they're to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there's no assurance Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, in the Bible the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is initial salvation is the salvation which Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5) in their mortal bodies, while ultimate salvation is the salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5), and which is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus Christ will bring to obedient Christians at His Second Coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when He will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal physical bodies into immortal physical bodies just like the immortal physical body which Jesus obtained at His resurrection on the third day after His death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).

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Over time, yes.

1 Timothy 4:1 ¶Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron . . .

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

This means in a wrong desire to continue in their lusts without repentance, Christians can reach the point where they become no longer able to endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, and instead seek out and latch onto any false teachings which will help to support them in their lusts.

Hebrews 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

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If Paul means that righteousness apart from observing the law only concerns initial salvation, the Christian MUST live their life under a law of righteousness, Paul is adamant they do not.

Bible2+ said:

Hebrews 10:26-29 refers to sin which can't be forgiven even through Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the Cross because it's sin which is being continued in without repentance. It hasn't been placed in the past (Romans 3:25), as in repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9). So "if we sin wilfully" (Hebrews 10:26) means if we sin without repentance. It doesn't mean: "If we sin because we want to", for every Christian has sinned because he wants to (James 1:14-15), and yet his sins as a Christian can still be forgiven if he repents from them and confesses them to God (1 John 1:9), including during his daily prayers asking for forgiveness for his sins (Matthew 6:11-12, Luke 11:3-4).

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I confess sins and apologize and talk with God about it them on a daily basis, and I ask him for help, "I" (alone) just can't seem to eliminate it all, or give it all up completely yet, though I want to and I hate my sin and sin and sinning really, I don't know what's wrong, I know I've (as in myself alone) have tried everything, and maybe that's a perfect place to start, I don't know...

To compare sin, my sin now, is not nearly as bad as it used to be, but, I don't want to justify or try to justify it though, or try and give myself and excuse, I do want to be always remorseful for my sin, if I can't give it up, I don't want to get to a point where I don't repent daily...

That's kinda where I am at...?

God Bless!

TheSeabass said:

I started 30+ years ago when I obeyed the gospel by believing repenting confessing and submitting to water baptism for remission of sins.

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You quit sinning overnight...?

Bible2+ said:

The former refers to initial justification/salvation while the latter refers to ultimate justification/salvation.

The ideas of initial salvation and ultimate salvation don't have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "initial salvation" and "ultimate salvation" in order to be true and supported by the Bible, just as, for example, the ideas of the unity of God and the Trinity don't have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "the unity" and "the Trinity" in order to be true and supported by the Bible (John 10:30, John 1:1,14, Isaiah 45:5, Matthew 28:19, Acts 5:3-4).

For in the Bible, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But note that other passages show that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law) if they're to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they're to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there's no assurance Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, in the Bible the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is initial salvation is the salvation which Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5) in their mortal bodies, while ultimate salvation is the salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5), and which is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus Christ will bring to obedient Christians at His Second Coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when He will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal physical bodies into immortal physical bodies just like the immortal physical body which Jesus obtained at His resurrection on the third day after His death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).

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Over time, yes.

1 Timothy 4:1 ¶Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron . . .

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

This means in a wrong desire to continue in their lusts without repentance, Christians can reach the point where they become no longer able to endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, and instead seek out and latch onto any false teachings which will help to support them in their lusts.

Hebrews 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Click to expand...

So my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you might live for another, to him that was raised from the dead.
For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies bringing forth fruit for death.
But now, by dying to what once bound us we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not the old way of the written code
Rom7:4-6

Which law is Paul referring to the Christian must die to?
Which law arouses sinful passions in the believer if they live under it?
Which law is the Christian released from( unto righteousness) Solely OC law, or NC law also? In the next five verses Paul gives a personal example from his own life as to why he had to die to a righteousness of observing the law. The example he gave was: thou shalt not covet, one of the TC, and NC law!

Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness for everyone who believeth rom10:4

I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law Christ died for nothing gal2:21

For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are NOT under law but under grace Rom6:14.
For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God Gal2:19

But now a righteousness APART from law has been made known... Rom3:21

Not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law but that which is by faith in Christ. The righteousness that comes from God and is by faith
Phil3:9

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: cursed is anyone who does not continue to do everything written in the book of the law. Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, the righteous will live by faith
Gal3:10&11

For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from FIRST TO LAST
Rom1:17

Do we then nullify the law by this faith( a righteousness of faith in Christ not observing the law) not at all! Rather we uphold the law
Rom3:31

You haven't understood Pauls message.
Righteousness apart from observing the law brings victory over sin. You must die to a law if righteousness as a believer, for:

The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56.

Therefore, if you live your Christian life under a righteousness of observing the law, sins power remains firmly in place in your life.
Therefore in Rom3:20 when Paul states you cannot be righteous by observing the law, he most definitely does NOT mean this only concerns initial salvation.

As i said, it makes no sense to the logical mind of man, but it made immense spiritual sense to the person who wrote half the books of the NT.

Arousing sinful passions sounds kinda dirty..

But, it can mean, very slick, nigh unnoticeable to the individual, "sins" that have slipped into them, unnoticed by them, those are the greatest tools of the enemy in my opinion, those subtle sins, cautious, not obvious, sins... The more obvious, not characteral, not behavioral sins, I think the less obvious should become more obvious and important, and the more obvious, should become less obvious, or payed attention to and/or important... They are like the inside of the cup and the outside of it...

This can be a deception and a trap, made to keep you blind, having these two reversed can distract and draw you away from what's really important, and is where you must start for any hope of the outside of the cup, ever becoming truly clean, is if the inside is first..

The ones who have this reversed are usually pointing fingers at the ones who really do not, due to this deception, and they are blind to how wrong it is, pointing fingers when they are full of sin, they just don't see it, or worse always refuse to acknowledge it when the truth of it is shown to them...

God Bless!

Neogaia777 said:

Arousing sinful passions sounds kinda dirty..

But, it can mean, very slick, nigh unnoticeable to the individual, "sins" that have slipped into them, unnoticed by them, those are the greatest tools of the enemy in my opinion, those subtle sins, cautious, not obvious, sins... The more obvious, not characteral, not behavioral sins, I think the less obvious should become more obvious and important, and the more obvious, should become less obvious, or payed attention to and/or important... They are like the inside of the cup and the outside of it...

This can be a deception and a trap, made to keep you blind, having these two reversed can distract and draw you away from what's really important, and is where you must start for any hope of the outside of the cup, ever becoming truly clean, is if the inside is first..

The ones who have this reversed are usually pointing fingers at the ones who really do not, due to this deception, and they are blind to how wrong it is, pointing fingers when they are full of sin, they just don't see it, or worse always refuse to acknowledge it when the truth of it is shown to them...

God Bless!

Click to expand...

Arousing sinful passions may sound kinda dirty, but it is the truth:

For I would not have known lust except the law had said: thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the Commandment wrought in me all manner of concupiscence
Rom7:7&8

Endorsing what Paul wrote in verse5

Bible2+ said:

The former refers to initial justification/salvation while the latter refers to ultimate justification/salvation.

The ideas of initial salvation and ultimate salvation don't have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "initial salvation" and "ultimate salvation" in order to be true and supported by the Bible, just as, for example, the ideas of the unity of God and the Trinity don't have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "the unity" and "the Trinity" in order to be true and supported by the Bible (John 10:30, John 1:1,14, Isaiah 45:5, Matthew 28:19, Acts 5:3-4).

For in the Bible, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But note that other passages show that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law) if they're to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they're to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there's no assurance Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, in the Bible the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is initial salvation is the salvation which Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5) in their mortal bodies, while ultimate salvation is the salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5), and which is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus Christ will bring to obedient Christians at His Second Coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when He will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal physical bodies into immortal physical bodies just like the immortal physical body which Jesus obtained at His resurrection on the third day after His death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).

*******



Over time, yes.

1 Timothy 4:1 ¶Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron . . .

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

This means in a wrong desire to continue in their lusts without repentance, Christians can reach the point where they become no longer able to endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, and instead seek out and latch onto any false teachings which will help to support them in their lusts.

Hebrews 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Click to expand...

There is no initial salvation vs ultimate salvation.

This is a man-made idea.

People cannot bring God's Word down to a human level and change the meanings.