Is Purgatory real?

Vicomte13 said:

But God and Purgatory are.

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of course they are mr. romanist. after all, the pope said so..

frettr00 said:

God has shown some saints visions of purgatory. One of these saints in recent times was St. Faustina. Holy Souls Sodality

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Now if only the true-believing Catholics who think that purgatory is a fiery place of suffering and the true-believing Catholics who insist that it's just a place where you get reoriented briefly before entering heaven--somewhat like a spiritual showerbath--would get together and decide what the church that never is wrong really believes, unlike those confused Protestants...we'd have something.

Halbhh said:

Many are blocked by trying to support a doctrine, which is not a learning attitude, I think.

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I'm not sure of the rest, which is fine, and this I have seen all the time (most visitors/ members) are supporting or defending or teaching or "asking subtly" without saying so to promote
their school of thought apart from Truth, separate from Scripture,
but using as if they can Scripture to do so. It does work with multitudes of people everywhere (the deception - promoting a teaching , practice or doctrine or tradition that is actually not in line with Scripture)
including all over the internet,
and when that is being done,
yes,
it blocks their ability to learn what is truth, and by the way also, woe to those who promote what is not truth, especially when they do so "as if" it is truth.

Mountainmike said:

Mans traditions - like those of the reformation including "sola scriptura" (or solo scritpura) are easily disproven by logic , scripture and history.

It is easy to prove that you cannot do a "yeshuaslavejeff" and choose your own interpretation of scripture easily proven by the fact that protestants disgagree on every aspect of doctrine with mutually exclusive doctrines of everything from eucharist, baptism, salvation, moral issues, marriage - you name it they disagree on it. And when they dislike a new interpretation they schism again.
So history proves private interpretation is NOT enough. It does not work.

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Your same flawed thought process could be applied to ANY position held in common by humans. For example, since there are many mutually exclusive Gods, ANY belief in a God doesn't work.

Mountainmike said:

First because those who think scripture and their power to interpret it is enough - have ignored the - authority of the church, provable from scripture - to determine interpretation of doctrine as"the pillar and foundation of truth is the church" "the household of God" given the power to "bind and loose" which it does in councils. So says scripture!

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Not quite. Your attempt to "cut-n-paste" a statement from Scripture is in harsh contrast from the actual statements OF Scripture, including dire warnings about what would happen in the Church, beginning in Paul's time, and continuing until Jesus destroys the apostate church at his coming. (Acts 20:17-31, 2 Thess 2:1-12, 2 Cor 11:3-4, Gal 1:6-9, Rev 17)
Notice, this apostasy would come from within the Elders of the church, would teach "another Jesus whom we (the apostles) did not preach", was "already working" in the church, and is in Rome, committing "fornications with the kings of the earth".

There is only one organization that fits these Scriptures~!

Dartman said:

and is in Rome, committing "fornications with the kings of the earth".

There is only one organization that fits these Scriptures~!

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Amein. Truth of Scripture, seen throughout history, never changed. God's Word is completely Solid, Faithful and Remains Unchanged and TRUTH FOREVER !

So did St Paul deny Christ's sacrifice when he said that it was lacking?

Did Jesus not say the debtor who did not forgive but sought forgiveness would stay in jail til their own debt was paid?

Did St Paul not say we would be saved through fire and all our works would either be burnt up or be like gems?
That being - that once the junk was burned away and we had only the good left - we would then be saved aka enter Heaven.

Does St John not state that no sin can enter Heaven?

Now imagine that we do not account for our sins - this would mean nobody at all would have to face hell. Its too simplistic to put the scriptures in a box and suggest the English translation would be good sufficient to wrest them.

IF it were so easy - why would St Peter say those who wrest them scriptures [OT] and St Paul's epistles be damned?

So if the deposit of truth is NOT simple, is not personal interpretation - then where does the truth stay?

victorinus said:

yes -
just visit a nursing home

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People are very much being purged in this life, both physically and spiritually.

WarriorAngel said:

So did St Paul deny Christ's sacrifice when he said that it was lacking?

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What passage are you asking about?

WarriorAngel said:

Did Jesus not say the debtor who did not forgive but sought forgiveness would stay in jail til their own debt was paid?

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This most certainly is part of a parable about forgiveness.... this has nothing to do with the fiction called "purgatory". The wicked are in their graves ... waiting for judgment .. according to Jesus. John 5:28-30

WarriorAngel said:

Did St Paul not say we would be saved through fire and all our works would either be burnt up or be like gems? That being - that once the junk was burned away and we had only the good left - we would then be saved aka enter Heaven.

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Nope. Your paraphrase is sort of like Paul's statement ... but there are many errors.
1) the "works" on trial are those people converted by the "builders"... "ministers". (1 Cor 3:5-15)
2) no human, except Jesus, will EVER "enter heaven".

WarriorAngel said:

Does St John not state that no sin can enter Heaven?

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No Scripture states the righteous will enter heaven. Peter states righteousness dwells in the new heaven, and new earth ... when Jehovah/YHVH God actually LEAVES heaven, and dwells on earth with the immortal righteous. (Rev 21, 22)

Adstar said:

Therefore all who sin are damned right?
Therefore you who still sin are damned by your own teaching right?

Unless that is you are prepared to claim that you no longer sin and that you have been sinless from the day you where saved?

If your willing to make such a declaration i can be assured you are not telling the truth and therefore are sinning by lying.. Either way you are self condemned.. Because you declare sinlessness in this flesh to be a requirement of salvation and you are not sinless.. Thus by your own preaching you are self condemned..

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Only if you misuse scripture to attempt self justifying continuing to practice sin you know to be sin.
I'm sure your doing what most do and referring to a single out of context sentance from 1 John. And basing your entire premise on that one line of text.
In all cases where this is done I advise that you go and read johns entire letter.without chopping it to bits.
Because he did not begin not end with that one verse.

Lybrah said:

I will just get to the point: Is Purgatory real? Didn't Christ already pay for our sins (taking the punishment for us) when He died in the Cross? Aren't we covered in the blood of the lamb? This life on Earth is a waiting place for us; why go to another waiting place? Aren't we made clean by accepting His death?

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Yes, purgatory is real. Purgatory deals with impurities in the soul that co-exist, in this life, with the Spirit given to believers. Because nothing impure can enter the presence of God, such impurities must be eliminated in the soul of a person destined to heaven. Such impurities can be eliminated on this earth - that is possible - if there is time, and if the person is faithful with the graces God gives, in mortal life. Many, many people - it appears to me - are not serious about pursuing holiness with complete zeal and fidelity, but are happy to love the things of this world and to bask in the promises of God at the same time. Such souls will probably need purgatory to finish their sanctification that was begun but not completed on earth.

For example, from Scripture, listen to this passage and my commentary. If you already have an interpretation that allows you to reject a Catholic understanding, I ask you to set your interpretation aside just for a while, to allow you think of this as a Catholic does. Then, you will be able to understand at least this part of the Catholic Faith. You are still free to reject it, of course, if you want to remain where you are:


OK. Paul is addressing men who have the Spirit - they are believers - but they remain "of the flesh." There is a mixture in them, they have mixed loves. There is a saving love for God and the things of God, yet at the same time there is within them the loves of this world - the loves of the "flesh." They are "babes", not yet "mature" - not yet finished, in the work of purification that the Spirit would work in them. That purification must be completed before they can enter the presence of God!

That purification takes time, and effort on the part of the Christian. They have to be "ready" to grow in Christ, and when "ready," they must partake of the spiritual food - the "solid food" - that will nurture them toward maturity.

...........

They have heard and believed the Gospel preached by Paul, and are beginning to live the Christian life. The living of life in this world is the work of "building" that Paul refers to. These men, these "babes", have a good and true foundation - they received the true Gospel from Paul - but now they must build upon it, in the living of their lives, in the living of Faith, in the living of Christian love. In other words, Paul is telling them that they have the foundation for their lives, now "take care how [you] build upon it."

The building of a man's life reflects the loves in his heart. The way a man uses his time, his money, his attention - what he does and why he does it - reflect the loves and desires of his heart. Now, what are the possibilities? What are examples of the ways that a Christian can "build his life" upon the foundation set by the Gospel?



The foundation for the Christian is holy! The foundation is Christ! Christ ought to be the foundation of our lives! Christ ought to be the reason for our being, the goal of our works, the explanation for the things we do and the things we refuse to do! If anyone asks a Christian "Why?" - "Why did you do that, why did you go there, why don't you want to do this?" - the answer ought to be, finally and ultimately, "Jesus! He is the reason why, for me!"

But is Jesus the only reason, for every Christian, at all times? Hardly. Christ deserves only "Gold" from a Christian - only wholehearted love for God and the things of God. All that a Christian desires should be desired because of God, and in God, and leading to the glory of God - and not desired because of "the flesh", because it "feels good", or looks good to oneself or to other men, or because it will impress this one or that one - carnal ambition, carnal satisfaction, carnal pleasures, and so on. Such desires and loves are impure, and look like choices of something less than gold that God deserves - like silver, or precious stones, or ever worse - wood, hay or straw.

But Judgment Day will disclose it all:


This "purgation", this picture of the burning away of the unworthy building materials is a way of describing the burning away of the spiritual impurities that chose the unworthy "building materials" in the first place. If a Christian's life is built with unworthy mixtures of loves, desires, ambitions that he has held onto through his life - seeking a compromise with the world, with the flesh - if he is not willing to cast all aside for the sake of Christ - then this purgation (called "purgatory") is necessary for him. His soul - which includes his loves and desires, impure and pure - will be cleansed by the "fire" to make the believer's soul wholly pure for the presence of God. He "will be saved", because he kept the holy love of the Spirit in him - BUT - "he will suffer loss... only as through fire" because he also kept what he should have transformed and purified in his mortal life: loves of the things of this world "in the flesh" and not "in Christ and because of Christ."

Christ died not merely to make "babes" but to gather mature men and women into the Kingdom. We are all called to holiness. This is what Paul refers to:

(The word "perfect" here means spiritually mature in Christ.) If we fail to "be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect", as Jesus commands, then we need purgatory.

It is amazing how some evangelicals ridicule Catholic teaching because they don't grasp biblical teaching as well as informed Catholics do! Let's examine the Word and discuss some of the many NT texts that imply the doctrine of Purgatory.

(1) "If the work of burned up, the builder will suffer loss. Yet the builder will be saved, but only so as by fire (1 Corinthians 3:15)."
In ancient rabbinic Judaism, the phrase "saved , yet so as by fire" refers to spiritually mediocre Jews who are not ready for heaven. They must spend some time in the purifying fires of Gehenna, until they are spiritually ready for heaven. Paul applies this phrase to Christians whose faith is not real because their shallow works cannot survive close scrutiny.

(2) The proper postmortem destination of believers is Paradise (Luke 23:42-43), which Paul locates in the 3rd heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2-3). Thus, the location of Paradise implies the existence of 2 lower heavens for those who are not spiritually ready for Paradise. Paul embraces the teaching in intertestamental Jewish literature that these lower heavens can be places of suffering reminiscent of Purgatory. We must remember that our death doesn't eliminate our free will. So if we died carnal selfish Christians, we will retain our flawed character after death and thus will not at once be suitable residents for the sin-free realms of heaven.

(3) Consider Jesus' image of Hades as an interim state or a debtor's prison:
"Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are on the way to court with Him. or your accuser will hand you over to the Judge, and the Judge to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison Truly I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny (Matthew 5:25-26 // Luke 12;57-59)."

This is an excellent prooftext for purgatory because in Aramaic the word for "sin" ("chob") also means "debt" and the debt can only be paid by postmortem purification, Notice the implication in Jesus' saying that the sin debt can ultimately be paid and thus release from "prison" can be secured.

This interpretation of Matthew 5:25-26 can be buttressed by 4 points:
(a) In Jesus' day, "prison" is a common image for postmortem confinement.
Jesus again uses "prison" as a metaphor for postmortem confinement in the Parable of the 2 Debtors in Matthew 18:34: "And in anger, his lord handed him over to the torturers, until he would pay his entire debt (18:34)." Notice that the 2nd debtor here is not sentences to permanent imprisonment. The possibility of ultimately paying the debt is implicit in the wording, just as it is in Matthew 5:25-26.
(b) Jesus' expression "Truly I say unto you" is always applied to our relationship with God and never to purely secular issues.
If you too this saying literally, Jesus would be telling His followers how they can beat the rap for their crimes!
(c) In the first 2 Christian centuries, this saying is always understood in terms of postmortem fate.
(d) Luke (12:57-59) rightly inserts this saying in an eschatological context.
(e) Since the Greek word for "faith" ("pistis") also means "faithfulness," it cannot be argued that Jesus' atoning death eliminates faithfulness as a necessary condition for the sin debt to be paid. But, you say, aren't you implying that in some sense Christ's sufferings for us are lacking? Yes, and Paul agrees with me:
"I am rejoicing in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am completing what is lacking in Christ's sufferings for the sake of His body, the Church (Colossians 1:24)."

(4) "Prison" is again used as an image of postmortem confinement in 1 Peter 3:19-20: "He (the risen Christ) went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah."

"For this is the reason the Gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that even though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does (4:6)."

"The phrase "the Gospel was proclaimed even to the dead" in 4:6 picks up the reference to "proclamation to the spirits in prison" in 3:19. This means (a) that "the spirits" in prison" are deceased evil humans and (b) that 4:6 is referring to the salvation of dead discarnate spirits, not to a mere theological sense of being dead in sins.

Such texts can be multiplied.

THE W said:

of course they are mr. romanist. after all, the pope said so..

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The Pope was just quoting Jesus. Gehenna is Purgatory.

Mountainmike said:

Mans traditions - like those of the reformation including "sola scriptura" (or solo scritpura) are easily disproven by logic , scripture and history.

It is easy to prove that you cannot do a "yeshuaslavejeff" and choose your own interpretation of scripture easily proven by the fact that protestants disgagree on every aspect of doctrine with mutually exclusive doctrines of everything from eucharist, baptism, salvation, moral issues, marriage - you name it they disagree on it. And when they dislike a new interpretation they schism again.
So history proves private interpretation is NOT enough. It does not work.

Why?

First because those who think scripture and their power to interpret it is enough - have ignored the - authority of the church, provable from scripture - to determine interpretation of doctrine as"the pillar and foundation of truth is the church" "the household of God" given the power to "bind and loose" which it does in councils. So says scripture! But for these councils you would not HAVE a creed or new testament. What they think - matters.

And second because the "yeshuaslave jeffs" hopelessly misunderstand the biblical meaning of tradition. He confuses it with the contemporary meaning.


It means "Paradosis" was the greek word. Handing down of the faith "by word of mouth and letter" LONG before there was a new testament, and even when there was , few could read and own books. So Jesus did not give us a book - that came later - he gave us disciples "to hand down" the faith - the meaning of paradosis , now translated as tradition.

Tradition "handing down" was the way jesus chose to hand on the faith!

So what do we know about purgatory?

1/ That the jews held prayers for the dead "kaddish" -
2/ That these are referred in scripture. Jesus and Paul both quoted the septuagint (greek old testament whcih history shows contained maccabees, despite reformers determination to kick it out, so maccabees was scripture as far as Jesus and Paul were concerned) that too refers to prayers for the dead.

3/ These prayers are noted by such as Tertullian.referred by early fathers long before the councils established new testament.

So Where are souls where prayers would be effective?
To whom was jesus preaching when he "descended into hell"?

In the end ask yourself ONE question -
are YOU pure enough for heaven as you are?
Are you really arrogant enough to think so?

All the ancient churches accept the need for purgation (a process) - referred by catholics as a "state of being" as much as a place "purgatory" by orthodox as "Purgation - a process". Where souls are "Purified as if by fire"

Some souls have been shown visions of purgatory, such as the fatima, kibeho visionaries. So said our lady "many souls perish because they have none to pray for them".

Purgatory is what that authority says using the power given to "bind and loose" on doctrine. The church- the "pillar and foundation of truth" has spoken on this.

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This is all cunning misinformation to promote the lie of purgatory.

The authority of the church?? Jesus is the head of HIS body.. And he will not contradict himself.

frettr00 said:

God has shown some saints visions of purgatory. One of these saints in recent times was St. Faustina. Holy Souls Sodality

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Yes, but what did Jesus the God of the Old Testament and the New say and instruct?

Vicomte13 said:

The Pope was just quoting Jesus. Gehenna is Purgatory.

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fide said:

such impurities must be eliminated in the soul of a person destined to heaven.

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Who says it has to be in the afterlife, after a person dies. A believer is under the blood contract until death, then death discloses the resulting crown of righteousness at judgement. There is no continuation of the blood contract after death, neither is there the Holy Spirit purgation at the point of judgement, after a believer has shed their blood.

fide said:

Such impurities can be eliminated on this earth - that is possible - if there is time,

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Who says that the Father of Time, the Holy Ghost runs out of time with believers. Is this your faith statement that reflects the works of the Holy Ghost. God will make Holy who he wants to in the Nic of Time, within this life, even if it is the last 3 hours of breath that the believer takes on his/her death bed.

fide said:

Such souls will probably need purgatory to finish their sanctification that was begun but not completed on earth.

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Who says.

fide said:

That purification must be completed before they can enter the presence of God!

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Who says, the Catholic Church or the Holy Ghost.

fide said:

1Co 3:13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
1Co 3:14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

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Complete misinterpretation. I will debunk this in a post of its own. This is a collapse of context. Go to other writings of Paul to understand the mind of Paul, rather than misrepresenting him.

"Yes, but what did Jesus the God of the Old Testament and the New say and instruct?"

The NT "says and instructs" that an intermediate postmortem state exists that might well be called "purgatory" and this case is solidly established by the Scriptures discussed in post #91. Instead of ridiculing Catholics, stop freezing like Bambi in the headlights when confronted by these tests and actually engage with God's Word. btw, notice that I'm not even Catholic.

The Times said:

Who says it has to be in the afterlife, after a person dies.

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Yes, who says that? I don't. I didn't. Did you? Did you say it to yourself, and thus can argue with yourself?

What I said was (note the 4th sentence of my post, here in bold):
Yes, purgatory is real. Purgatory deals with impurities in the soul that co-exist, in this life, with the Spirit given to believers. Because nothing impure can enter the presence of God, such impurities must be eliminated in the soul of a person destined to heaven. Such impurities can be eliminated on this earth - that is possible - if there is time, and if the person is faithful with the graces God gives, in mortal life.

The Times said:

A believer is under the blood contract until death, then death discloses the resulting crown of righteousness at judgement. There is no continuation of the blood contract after death, neither is there the Holy Spirit purgation at the point of judgement, after a believer has shed their blood.

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Who says this? Where do you get your interpretations? Can you give "chapter and verse" for these opinions?

Albion said:

Now if only the true-believing Catholics who think that purgatory is a fiery place of suffering and the true-believing Catholics who insist that it's just a place where you get reoriented briefly before entering heaven--somewhat like a spiritual showerbath--would get together and decide what the church that never is wrong really believes, unlike those confused Protestants...we'd have something.

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It is cleansing AND a place of suffering. If cleansing did not bring suffering, it would be very easy, and maybe even common - as would holiness be very common - would they not?

Albion said:

Now if only the true-believing Catholics who think that purgatory is a fiery place of suffering and the true-believing Catholics who insist that it's just a place where you get reoriented briefly before entering heaven--somewhat like a spiritual showerbath--would get together and decide what the church that never is wrong really believes, unlike those confused Protestants...we'd have something.

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I find it amusing how you keep trying to prove disunity in Catholic teaching. Would it be safe to assume that your desire to do so is because of the shame you feel for the obvious disunity on your side of the world?

The "We are bad, but so are you" argument. Alas.

Here you go:

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611